455 réponses à ce sujet

[Naarad]

Johnny_Cheung wrote...

indoctrinating shepard could entirely turn the tide of war, but the demise of shepard only boost the morale of the resistance army.

moreover, i suspect that the ghost kid is the avatar of harby, which the modelling file implied,

http://i1115.photobu...31778596081.png

Alright, if Bioware was naming him internally Harbinger, as you just demonstrated. Then we can take it as fact that he is Harbinger's avatar or Harbinger himself (it's the same in the end). Perhaps what we should be asking ourselves is not if Shepard is indoctrinated but rather, who or what is Harbinger besides just a Reaper?

[justie]

Johnny_Cheung wrote...

indoctrinating shepard could entirely turn the tide of war, but the demise of shepard only boost the morale of the resistance army.

moreover, i suspect that the ghost kid is the avatar of harby, which the modelling file implied,

http://i1115.photobu...31778596081.png

Yes the death of their leader and Icon will boost their morale. Just because he died doesn't mean he would be a martyr and would spur the people towards victory. More likely it would discourage everyone seeing the greatest reaper killer in the galaxy kill squashed like a bug.

[Beast919]

Naarad wrote...

Here we go again...

I'm willing to hear your theory.  Please, state it in your own words.  Please state what it was you found interesting about Mcfly's post.  Cause if I've interpreted it wrong, I apologize.

[Beast919]

justie wrote...

Johnny_Cheung wrote...

indoctrinating shepard could entirely turn the tide of war, but the demise of shepard only boost the morale of the resistance army.

moreover, i suspect that the ghost kid is the avatar of harby, which the modelling file implied,

http://i1115.photobu...31778596081.png

Yes the death of their leader and Icon will boost their morale. Just because he died doesn't mean he would be a martyr and would spur the people towards victory. More likely it would discourage everyone seeing the greatest reaper killer in the galaxy kill squashed like a bug.

Word of his death wouldn't spread until it was  too late anyways.  I'm pretty sure everyone knew at that point that unless Shepard accomplished his mission it was over.  This cuts both ways (against Indoc & for it), but I feel the true reason for triyng to turn Shepard is that its a personal grievance of Harby's, that he couldn't break Shepard (and there's some weird personal interactions between them anyways, the entire plot of ME2 is Harby having a boner for Shepard)

[justie]

Beast919 wrote...

justie wrote...

If it was originally what bioware had planned the they did a pretty bad job of getting across because nobody even bothered to look at the idea until a couple of days after they had beaten the game.

Either way Bioware's execution of the ending was just awful.

Personally, I think they wanted to fool the players into thinking they were dealing with reality.  If you beat someone over the head with a concept, they're bound to latch on to it and be cautious of tricksy dealings.  But if you subtly put hints in (Come on, the kid saying "You can't save me" screamed WTF at the time but due to the pacing, I quickly forgot it), and with reflection it came take some form, thats relatively creative.

How did the Reapers even indoctrinate Shepard so quickly with the little boy then? It seemed pretty clear to me that it at least takes a week or two for somebody to be indoctrinated. Seeing how shepard has probably spent a couple of hours near reapers previous to that event and only ten minutes with the reaper crashing into earth I find it hard to believe that he is already indoctrinated enough to see children.

[Privatr16]

I always thought that the Prothean VIs and Javik had ways of detecting indoctrination. Seeing as at the end of their empire the VIs actively scan for any signs or they hide from you/don't talk to you. If that is true then it couldn't have happened at all until after Thessia.

[Beast919]

Johnny_Cheung wrote...

indoctrinating shepard could entirely turn the tide of war, but the demise of shepard only boost the morale of the resistance army.

moreover, i suspect that the ghost kid is the avatar of harby, which the modelling file implied,

http://i1115.photobu...31778596081.png

that screenshot was already shot down in another thread as being bogus.  Was funny while it lasted though.

[Naarad]

Mcfly616 wrote... 

Naarad I think you misunderstood me. I actually do understand what you're saying this time around....however, that doesn't mean that it can't occur in a dream or while being indoctrinated.

I don't see any evidence of it being an indoctrination or a dream. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, the blurry images, the slow moevement, etc it's a resource we've seen used plenty of times in games, movies, etc, when showing a difficult situation for the main character.

Mcfly616 wrote...  
why does Starkid say "Wake Up"?! Hmmm

That's one of the things that I'm still wondering why. It doesn't add or remove anything in both cases (the "Wake up" was the only one I saw, so it wasn't until a bit later when I found out there was also a "Why are you here?" when your EMS is lower). Frankly, it's something that I can't make heads or tails of it regardless of any theories. I mean, if the ending is real, it makes no sense. If Shep is indoctrinated it still makes no sense. It's a resource I just don't understand other than for the sake of Bioware saying "different ending!"

[Ieldra]

Beast919 wrote...
And as for tricking players into thinking they won? I think its fairly safe to say that no matter what people picked, no one felt like they won.  No matter what you choose, galatic civilization, as you know it, is ruined, with some species probably going extinct.

That's true (there's some doubt about Control, but that's not the issue here). The problem is that the indoctrination theorists promote a scenario where only they win and everyone who doesn't agree with them is f*cked. I smell an agenda here. You think there's a rationale for the Control or Synthesis options? Sorry, you lose. We are right and everyone else is indoctrinated. Reminds me of some states who put their dissidents in mental hospitals. You think Bioware would implement something like that? After a game where the concept of player agency was realized so well (except the endings, of course)?

Bad writing and budget constraints is far more plausible as an explanation. Just consider ME:Deception. Nobody here can explain how that got past the editor. But still, it did.

[Beast919]

justie wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

justie wrote...

If it was originally what bioware had planned the they did a pretty bad job of getting across because nobody even bothered to look at the idea until a couple of days after they had beaten the game.

Either way Bioware's execution of the ending was just awful.

Personally, I think they wanted to fool the players into thinking they were dealing with reality.  If you beat someone over the head with a concept, they're bound to latch on to it and be cautious of tricksy dealings.  But if you subtly put hints in (Come on, the kid saying "You can't save me" screamed WTF at the time but due to the pacing, I quickly forgot it), and with reflection it came take some form, thats relatively creative.

How did the Reapers even indoctrinate Shepard so quickly with the little boy then? It seemed pretty clear to me that it at least takes a week or two for somebody to be indoctrinated. Seeing how shepard has probably spent a couple of hours near reapers previous to that event and only ten minutes with the reaper crashing into earth I find it hard to believe that he is already indoctrinated enough to see children.

People have compiled lists of all the interactions Shepard has had with reapers - its pretty extensive (some if it covered in DLC which is why you may not be familiar with it, I personally did not play some of the ME2 DLC myself, I believe Arrival had some intense reaper-interaction).

The Cerberus implants that brought Shep back to life were always suspect to me, and they never really make it clear how/if multiple reapers being nearby can compound the effect.

Plus there's the adernaline effect - the entire point of the husk-making spikes is that adrenaline is supposed to enhance the susceptability to indoctrination - Shep just got hit by a space laser, his body is in overdrive.

[heretica]

Lyrandori wrote...

 Shepard is able to "think like" a Prothean (as mentioned in M1 by Liara, thanks to touching the Beacon on Eden Prime 

Nope. Shepard is able to think like a prothean because she got the Cipher in Feros. 

[justie]

Beast919 wrote...

justie wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

justie wrote...

If it was originally what bioware had planned the they did a pretty bad job of getting across because nobody even bothered to look at the idea until a couple of days after they had beaten the game.

Either way Bioware's execution of the ending was just awful.

Personally, I think they wanted to fool the players into thinking they were dealing with reality.  If you beat someone over the head with a concept, they're bound to latch on to it and be cautious of tricksy dealings.  But if you subtly put hints in (Come on, the kid saying "You can't save me" screamed WTF at the time but due to the pacing, I quickly forgot it), and with reflection it came take some form, thats relatively creative.

How did the Reapers even indoctrinate Shepard so quickly with the little boy then? It seemed pretty clear to me that it at least takes a week or two for somebody to be indoctrinated. Seeing how shepard has probably spent a couple of hours near reapers previous to that event and only ten minutes with the reaper crashing into earth I find it hard to believe that he is already indoctrinated enough to see children.

People have compiled lists of all the interactions Shepard has had with reapers - its pretty extensive (some if it covered in DLC which is why you may not be familiar with it, I personally did not play some of the ME2 DLC myself, I believe Arrival had some intense reaper-interaction).

The Cerberus implants that brought Shep back to life were always suspect to me, and they never really make it clear how/if multiple reapers being nearby can compound the effect.

Plus there's the adernaline effect - the entire point of the husk-making spikes is that adrenaline is supposed to enhance the susceptability to indoctrination - Shep just got hit by a space laser, his body is in overdrive.

Privatr16 wrote...

I always thought that the Prothean VIs
and Javik had ways of detecting indoctrination. Seeing as at the end of
their empire the VIs actively scan for any signs or they hide from
you/don't talk to you. If that is true then it couldn't have happened at
all until after Thessia.

Exactly what Privatr16 said. I think its more likely that the scared little kid just tried to hide some more.

[justie]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Beast919 wrote...
And as for tricking players into thinking they won? I think its fairly safe to say that no matter what people picked, no one felt like they won.  No matter what you choose, galatic civilization, as you know it, is ruined, with some species probably going extinct.

Bad writing and budget constraints is far more plausible as an explanation. Just consider ME:Deception. Nobody here can explain how that got past the editor. But still, it did.

Pretty much this. Not enough proof for Indoctrination and still to much evidence against it. It was simply a bad ending that slipped by just like ME: Deception was a bad book that slipped by.

[Mcfly616]

Beast919 your last post is basically what I think of it....as it stands now, the execution is lackluster, but with the ending it will all tie together just like the first 2 games

[Beast919]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Beast919 wrote...
And as for tricking players into thinking they won? I think its fairly safe to say that no matter what people picked, no one felt like they won.  No matter what you choose, galatic civilization, as you know it, is ruined, with some species probably going extinct.

That's true (there's some doubt about Control, but that's not the issue here). The problem is that the indoctrination theorists promote a scenario where only they win and everyone who doesn't agree with them is f*cked. I smell an agenda here. You think there's a rationale for the Control or Synthesis options? Sorry, you lose. We are right and everyone else is indoctrinated. Reminds me of some states who put their dissidents in mental hospitals. You think Bioware would implement something like that? After a game where the concept of player agency was realized so well (except the endings, of course)?

Bad writing and budget constraints is far more plausible as an explanation. Just consider ME:Deception. Nobody here can explain how that got past the editor. But still, it did.

One reason I severely, severely do not buy the bad writing/ budget constraints, is there's *ZERO* resolution.  This is bioware, they understand that after a game with multiple options, you want **** explained to you.  There's no still image of Tali standing on jungle world facing the sunset with her mask off (i.e. her back to you so they can still be lazy), nothing.  I honestly cannot believe in any part of my being that they would be that oblivious to their previous strategies to not even include that small amount of closure.

It does not take much money/time to create a half-assed ending screen for ~6 squadmates.  It just doesn't. 

But more to the theory of whether they would write off 2/3 of their players who chose non-destory, even if they don't explain this in some reasonable way (I too struggle trying to imagine how a "yeah you were being tested" DLC is going to followup on the ending as it is) - 2/3 of the chocies *still* end in Shepard's death.  And no matter what you "choose", you STILL break the galaxy as a whole.  There is no real choice, its all an illusion with this end.  No matter what, the galaxy is boned.

[DVZ]

Valentia X wrote...

Prove the indoctrination theory. And by prove, I mean give me Casey Hudson saying 'Yup, that's it.'
.

This. Every other piece of "evidence" is just speculation and rumour. And a complete waste of time. I'm going back for my third ME3 playthrough.

[Beast919]

justie wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Beast919 wrote...
And as for tricking players into thinking they won? I think its fairly safe to say that no matter what people picked, no one felt like they won.  No matter what you choose, galatic civilization, as you know it, is ruined, with some species probably going extinct.

Bad writing and budget constraints is far more plausible as an explanation. Just consider ME:Deception. Nobody here can explain how that got past the editor. But still, it did.

Pretty much this. Not enough proof for Indoctrination and still to much evidence against it. It was simply a bad ending that slipped by just like ME: Deception was a bad book that slipped by.

As your willing to at least play ball reasonably (unlike the majority of people have been), what would you propose is the purpose of the ending teaser footage?  Specifically, N7 armor in london-esque rubble coming to life.  Where does this lead?  How is this possible?  What is the purpose?

[Phaedra Sanguine]

Deztyn wrote...

I think Shepard is in a coma. I believe that she never woke up after Eden Prime, and all of Mass Effect 1, 2 and 3 after she 'woke' in the medbay is just an elaborate nightmare vision caused by her exposure to the Prothean beacon.

Now disprove my theory.

That would be totally awesome if, in some DLC, you woke up on the SR1 with Ashely and Anderson in your face. "Whoa, wait a minute, just wait. Deja vu."

[Beast919]

Paxcorpus wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

I think Shepard is in a coma. I believe that she never woke up after Eden Prime, and all of Mass Effect 1, 2 and 3 after she 'woke' in the medbay is just an elaborate nightmare vision caused by her exposure to the Prothean beacon.

Now disprove my theory.

That would be totally awesome if, in some DLC, you woke up on the SR1 with Ashely and Anderson in your face. "Whoa, wait a minute, just wait. Deja vu."

I'd almost be down with this possibility simply for the sake of having Ashley be a semi-realistic character again.  Poor, poor Ashley...

[Nassegris]

The indoctrination theory would give me some kind of hope that a better ending is coming, but –

Make me lose all semblance of hope for future Bioware games. I’m not out to buy games with fake endings. If I’m buying a game that is the end of a series, it had better be complete in itself, and not an attempt to milk me for another $20 or so when they release the ‘real’ ending.

If the indoctrination is true, it means I sat through that crap at the end for nothing, that it means even LESS than nothing, and to be honest – if they were trying to indoctrinate her, man, they gave her some pretty worthless, unappealing choices.

It sets a horrific precedence – games released with ******-poor endings so that the companies can trick us into shelling out cash for a new conclusion for the story we thought we’d already paid for. If it had at least been an honest mistake and they thought it was a neat story but it ended up sucking, I could on some level sympathise; they miscalculated.

If they put me through that wringer on purpose?

Ugh, I don’t even want to think about it.

[justie]

Beast919 wrote...

justie wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Beast919 wrote...
And as for tricking players into thinking they won? I think its fairly safe to say that no matter what people picked, no one felt like they won.  No matter what you choose, galatic civilization, as you know it, is ruined, with some species probably going extinct.

Bad writing and budget constraints is far more plausible as an explanation. Just consider ME:Deception. Nobody here can explain how that got past the editor. But still, it did.

Pretty much this. Not enough proof for Indoctrination and still to much evidence against it. It was simply a bad ending that slipped by just like ME: Deception was a bad book that slipped by.

As your willing to at least play ball reasonably (unlike the majority of people have been), what would you propose is the purpose of the ending teaser footage?  Specifically, N7 armor in london-esque rubble coming to life.  Where does this lead?  How is this possible?  What is the purpose?

Personally I really don't think it had much of a true purpose in the game other then to let fans know he was alive and that your work to get all those war assests paid off. You can't claim you have some 16 different endings or whatever if you don't. This was just another way to claim you have a completely different endings for Bioware marketing.

Also they knew the fans would be upset and outraged if no matter what Shepard had to died so they put in an ending that probably took them a very short amount of time to animate as some congradulations to the players who managed to amass the largest amount of war assests they could. They didn't think players would exam how he survived the crash. They just threw it in there to show us he survived the crash.

People keep trying to overthink it.

[BrianWilly]

The Prothean VI says that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated on Thessia, and also didn't mention that he was indoctrinated on the Cerberus station.  There, the theory is disproved.

People arguing that the VI might not be able to tell that Shepard is indoctrinated because he wasn't indoctrinated all the way at the time are just making up imaginary assumptions to prove their conclusions.  We have literally zero canonical indication that an individual's "level" of indoctrination makes any difference at all to the Prothean VI.  Any conjecture about how much or how little the VI might be able to detect a person's state of indoctrination is pure, fabricated, wishful thinking, because the fact is that the story doesn't suggest anything of the kind.  As the story was presented to us, Shepard was not indoctrinated.

Meanwhile, I'm loving all the indignant responses of "BUT THERE JUST HAS TO BE SOMETHING MORE THAN THAT!" whenever people point out that sometimes the explanation for crappy writing is simply crappy writing.  No, there doesn't have to be anything more than that.  Bad writing happens all the time, it happens with BioWare, it even happens with Mass Effect.  "The rubble scene just has to mean something!" Really?  Why?  Because you really really really want it to?  Because it would be really frustrating and unsatisfying otherwise?  The whole premise of bad writing is that it's frustrating and unsatisfying!  Saying that "It can't be bad writing, because then it would be bad!" is kinda missing the point here.

Modifié par BrianWilly, 15 mars 2012 - 12:22 .

[blacqout]

MisterNugNug wrote...

Why Indoctrinate Shepard? If he/she is lying on the ground, why not kill Shepard? One individual has amassed the galaxy's alien races together; united them to confront you. Killing him/her would destroy morale and resolve amongst the races.

Did you not read any of the codex entries on how the Reapers operate? They actively indoctrinate people in positions of authority. Shepard would be a huge coup.

[Mcfly616]

So you say you don't see the obvious clues. You assume Shepard survives while being on the citadel as it explodes into pieces while orbiting Earth? I'm just saying, if that's more believable to you than the all the things I've stated, than you cannot be saved haha you honestly think that its more logical than Bioware throwing a curveball twist? (Which they've done, time and again) You have provided no proof that is even relatively close to holding water, that can say otherwise about indoc/dream theory. You choose to interpret however you like....

[Baelyn]

FabricatedWookie wrote...
 You have to reject the endings given to accept an ending you think makes more sense. I am not talking about the actual continuity presented, because that could well be a product of developer error. I am talking about the fact the endings are your information. There is not significant evidence that indoc theory is true, because it has it's own conflicts. Including meta-game consequences such as why the indotrination wasn't revealed.

No, you do not. You just have to realize what is actually being presented to you that is hinted at throughout the entire series. 

What do the reapers have to gain by shepard controlling them? Why would they raise the platform to their own destruction? Indoc theory introduces more speculation and uncertainty into the world. As a possibility it is secondary to the endings and their apparent reality. It doesn't necessitate that they be rejected out right, but on the totem pole of possibilities they are behind that everything we saw happened.

You are actually providing evidence for Indoctrination Theory right here. All the questions you raised are solved if you believe that Shepard is not actually "being raised to the control platform," not actually "controlling the reapers" etc. These choices are given as a doorway into Shepards mind. If Harbinger can convince him of any of these half truths, then Shepard has failed to pass the test of indoctrination. Choosing destruction is the only defiant thing he can do and in doing so Harbinger realizes that Shepard, at Harbinger's strongest attempt, cannot be controlled.