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[Beast919]

BrianWilly wrote...

The Prothean VI says that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated on Thessia, and also didn't mention that he was indoctrinated on the Cerberus station.  There, the theory is disproved.

People arguing that the VI might not be able to tell that Shepard is indoctrinated because he wasn't indoctrinated all the way at the time are just making up imaginary assumptions to prove their conclusions.  We have literally zero canonical indication that an individual's "level" of indoctrination makes any difference at all to the Prothean VI.  Any conjecture about how much or how little the VI might be able to detect a person's state of indoctrination is pure, fabricated, wishful thinking, because the fact is that the story doesn't suggest anything of the kind.  As the story was presented to us, Shepard was not indoctrinated.

Meanwhile, I'm loving all the indignant responses of "BUT THERE JUST HAS TO BE SOMETHING MORE THAN THAT!" whenever people point out that sometimes the explanation for crappy writing is simply crappy writing.  No, there doesn't have to be anything more than that.  Bad writing happens all the time, it happens with BioWare, it even happens with Mass Effect.  "The rubble scene just has to mean something!" Really?  Why?  Because you really really really want it to?  Because it would be really frustrating and unsatisfying otherwise?  The whole premise of bad writing is that it's frustrating and unsatisfying!  Saying that "It can't be bad writing, because then it would be bad!" is kinda missing the point here.

I'm more than willing to entertain the notion that the ending is what it is, just simply bad.  I'm shocked ,and pretty much can't fathom, the pure *lack* of content to the ending.  Even half-assed content.  It doesn't make sense.  Surely someone would have been like "well herp di derp, what happens to so & so?" and they'd be all "oh damn, lets put in a 5$ screenshot of them blowing up and say they blew up".  Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much got left out.  Its just weird.

[Mcfly616]

Nassegris, even if it is a dream or indoctrination, your choices at the catalyst/citadel may still matter(especially if Harby is in fact indoctrinating Shepard) we just have no way of knowing of what the consequences will be if they do

[justie]

Mcfly616 wrote...

So you say you don't see the obvious clues. You assume Shepard survives while being on the citadel as it explodes into pieces while orbiting Earth? I'm just saying, if that's more believable to you than the all the things I've stated, than you cannot be saved haha you honestly think that its more logical than Bioware throwing a curveball twist? (Which they've done, time and again) You have provided no proof that is even relatively close to holding water, that can say otherwise about indoc/dream theory. You choose to interpret however you like....

If there wasn't already so much evidence agains't this curveball twist then maybe I would believe it more. The Prothean VI on the cerebrus ship doesn't state Shepard is indoctrinated. Explain that? Do you think its more believable that it was simply bad writing then some theory that has absolutely nothing to validate it other than some minor details that could be interpreted as anything else?

[Beast919]

justie wrote...

Personally I really don't think it had much of a true purpose in the game other then to let fans know he was alive and that your work to get all those war assests paid off. You can't claim you have some 16 different endings or whatever if you don't. This was just another way to claim you have a completely different endings for Bioware marketing.

Also they knew the fans would be upset and outraged if no matter what Shepard had to died so they put in an ending that probably took them a very short amount of time to animate as some congradulations to the players who managed to amass the largest amount of war assests they could. They didn't think players would exam how he survived the crash. They just threw it in there to show us he survived the crash.

People keep trying to overthink it.

Thing is though it wasn't tuned specifically to war assets.  It was only tuned to 1 out of 3 of the possible endings.  Convieniently, the only one  that couldn't possibly serve the reapers .  But avoiding any more speculation,  any fan who seriously looks at what happened in that ending and thinks "uh....yeah, Shep's fine" is lowest of the low in brain function.

I dunno, it screams "teaser" footage to me.  Teaser footage generally implies that something is following.  I don't see what could follow that ending (other than Indoc).

[Beast919]

justie wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

So you say you don't see the obvious clues. You assume Shepard survives while being on the citadel as it explodes into pieces while orbiting Earth? I'm just saying, if that's more believable to you than the all the things I've stated, than you cannot be saved haha you honestly think that its more logical than Bioware throwing a curveball twist? (Which they've done, time and again) You have provided no proof that is even relatively close to holding water, that can say otherwise about indoc/dream theory. You choose to interpret however you like....

If there wasn't already so much evidence agains't this curveball twist then maybe I would believe it more. The Prothean VI on the cerebrus ship doesn't state Shepard is indoctrinated. Explain that? Do you think its more believable that it was simply bad writing then some theory that has absolutely nothing to validate it other than some minor details that could be interpreted as anything else?

This is the one thing thats really nagging me, and the only possible defense I have is it only can determine if someone is *fully* indoctrinated.  Who knows - its never explained *how* it tells who is and who isn't, and its never explained what indoctrination actually physically does (is it?) All I ever understood was it was essentially brainwashing, and when done in a hurry (i.e. husks) it destroyed mental function.

Regardless, points like bringing up the VI are the entire purpose for the thread.  I agree that its suspect, and I'm not real confident in the defense I have for it.

Modifié par Beast919, 15 mars 2012 - 12:32 .

[Baelyn]

BrianWilly wrote...

The Prothean VI says that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated on Thessia, and also didn't mention that he was indoctrinated on the Cerberus station.  There, the theory is disproved.

People arguing that the VI might not be able to tell that Shepard is indoctrinated because he wasn't indoctrinated all the way at the time are just making up imaginary assumptions to prove their conclusions.  We have literally zero canonical indication that an individual's "level" of indoctrination makes any difference at all to the Prothean VI.  Any conjecture about how much or how little the VI might be able to detect a person's state of indoctrination is pure, fabricated, wishful thinking, because the fact is that the story doesn't suggest anything of the kind.  As the story was presented to us, Shepard was not indoctrinated.

Meanwhile, I'm loving all the indignant responses of "BUT THERE JUST HAS TO BE SOMETHING MORE THAN THAT!" whenever people point out that sometimes the explanation for crappy writing is simply crappy writing.  No, there doesn't have to be anything more than that.  Bad writing happens all the time, it happens with BioWare, it even happens with Mass Effect.  "The rubble scene just has to mean something!" Really?  Why?  Because you really really really want it to?  Because it would be really frustrating and unsatisfying otherwise?  The whole premise of bad writing is that it's frustrating and unsatisfying!  Saying that "It can't be bad writing, because then it would be bad!" is kinda missing the point here.

The story also presents to us that the Protheans sucked at detecting indoctrination even in the latest stages of the cycle (Javik). Deductive reasoning, hence, tells us that this Prothean is not the end-all-be-all Indoctrination detection device that people are making it out to be. You cannot prove nor disprove Indoctrination based off of this. All you can say is, we can accept the end at face value, explain supposed massive plotholes by bad writing, or you can take a look at the bigger picture and see a theory that works very well, has far fewer plotholes, and is being consistently hinted at and pushed by developers that obviously want to discuss more than they are being allowed.

[justie]

Beast919 wrote...

justie wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

So you say you don't see the obvious clues. You assume Shepard survives while being on the citadel as it explodes into pieces while orbiting Earth? I'm just saying, if that's more believable to you than the all the things I've stated, than you cannot be saved haha you honestly think that its more logical than Bioware throwing a curveball twist? (Which they've done, time and again) You have provided no proof that is even relatively close to holding water, that can say otherwise about indoc/dream theory. You choose to interpret however you like....

If there wasn't already so much evidence agains't this curveball twist then maybe I would believe it more. The Prothean VI on the cerebrus ship doesn't state Shepard is indoctrinated. Explain that? Do you think its more believable that it was simply bad writing then some theory that has absolutely nothing to validate it other than some minor details that could be interpreted as anything else?

This is the one thing thats really nagging me, and the only possible defense I have is it only can determine if someone is *fully* indoctrinated.  Who knows - its never explained *how* it tells who is and who isn't, and its never explained what indoctrination actually physically does (is it?) All I ever understood was it was essentially brainwashing, and when done in a hurry (i.e. husks) it destroyed mental function.

Regardless, points like bringing up the VI are the entire purpose for the thread.  I agree that its suspect, and I'm not real confident in the defense I have for it.

Yeah I also think it is the strongest point agains't people who are all about the Indoctrination theory. There isn't really a way to counter it.

Really it doesn't matter how much we argue it won't change either of our opinions until Bioware releases an offical statement on the game. Hell, maybe Indoctrination is right and they will release DLC that ties it all together magically, but right now I'm just not seeing. All I'm seeing is a rushed ending that severely damages the Mass Effect trilogy and it makes me sad.

[soundhole]

Ok, time to finish this.

Clearly, the Starchild was a reaper the whole time, right from the very beginning. The opening shot of him controlling a fighter ship represents the control he will have over the Alliance later. He was placed near Shepard to begin indoctrinating him as early as possible, and by the time he gets to the Defense Council, it has begun in full force. Now considered insane, the Alliance locks Shep up, though unbeknownst to them, the Reaper-child is keeping a close eye on his movements. By careful observation, Harbinger learns everything Shepard would do, every military tactic he would make and the lengths he would go through the fight the invasion and then, through crafty use of blue, red and green, wins his mind. This is why the child is featured so prominently in Shepard's dreams, and why he shows up at the "Citadel". Pre-beam and post-beam are so yesterday. I'm talking pre-Mars indoctrination, mutha-f@kas.

It's so clear if you just pretend that there's evidence for it.

[justie]

Baelyn wrote...

BrianWilly wrote...

The Prothean VI says that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated on Thessia, and also didn't mention that he was indoctrinated on the Cerberus station.  There, the theory is disproved.

People arguing that the VI might not be able to tell that Shepard is indoctrinated because he wasn't indoctrinated all the way at the time are just making up imaginary assumptions to prove their conclusions.  We have literally zero canonical indication that an individual's "level" of indoctrination makes any difference at all to the Prothean VI.  Any conjecture about how much or how little the VI might be able to detect a person's state of indoctrination is pure, fabricated, wishful thinking, because the fact is that the story doesn't suggest anything of the kind.  As the story was presented to us, Shepard was not indoctrinated.

Meanwhile, I'm loving all the indignant responses of "BUT THERE JUST HAS TO BE SOMETHING MORE THAN THAT!" whenever people point out that sometimes the explanation for crappy writing is simply crappy writing.  No, there doesn't have to be anything more than that.  Bad writing happens all the time, it happens with BioWare, it even happens with Mass Effect.  "The rubble scene just has to mean something!" Really?  Why?  Because you really really really want it to?  Because it would be really frustrating and unsatisfying otherwise?  The whole premise of bad writing is that it's frustrating and unsatisfying!  Saying that "It can't be bad writing, because then it would be bad!" is kinda missing the point here.

The story also presents to us that the Protheans sucked at detecting indoctrination even in the latest stages of the cycle (Javik). Deductive reasoning, hence, tells us that this Prothean is not the end-all-be-all Indoctrination detection device that people are making it out to be. You cannot prove nor disprove Indoctrination based off of this. All you can say is, we can accept the end at face value, explain supposed massive plotholes by bad writing, or you can take a look at the bigger picture and see a theory that works very well, has far fewer plotholes, and is being consistently hinted at and pushed by developers that obviously want to discuss more than they are being allowed.

Or you could think that the developers came out with a terrible ending and after the players desprately patched this other slightly less terrible ending together  decided that it was better than the one they had and to avoid the even larger **** storm of admitting bad writing decided to go with it.

[Beast919]

justie wrote...

Yeah I also think it is the strongest point agains't people who are all about the Indoctrination theory. There isn't really a way to counter it.

Really it doesn't matter how much we argue it won't change either of our opinions until Bioware releases an offical statement on the game. Hell, maybe Indoctrination is right and they will release DLC that ties it all together magically, but right now I'm just not seeing. All I'm seeing is a rushed ending that severely damages the Mass Effect trilogy and it makes me sad.

heh, my goal of reading this thread was truly not to argue, I was looking for tidbits like that Vi (and someone mentioned the fact that the relays blowing up in every choice really has nothing to do with anything concerning indoc ... or anything, really).  Just way too many people set in their ways one way or the other.

I just personally think there's too much......weirdness going on.  The twitter posts (Hardest.Day.Ever. -  Well, wouldn't it be absolutely brutal to watch people destroy your game on your own forum while you sat back knowing there was more coming? especially if it was a creative schism where you made the whole game and they butchered it to try & sell DLC? That would be horrifying) and such leading us on, the completely night & day difference between the quality of the ending and.........any other scene in the trilogy.

Way too weird.

[Beast919]

soundhole wrote...

Ok, time to finish this.

Clearly, the Starchild was a reaper the whole time, right from the very beginning. The opening shot of him controlling a fighter ship represents the control he will have over the Alliance later. He was placed near Shepard to begin indoctrinating him as early as possible, and by the time he gets to the Defense Council, it has begun in full force. Now considered insane, the Alliance locks Shep up, though unbeknownst to them, the Reaper-child is keeping a close eye on his movements. By careful observation, Harbinger learns everything Shepard would do, every military tactic he would make and the lengths he would go through the fight the invasion and then, through crafty use of blue, red and green, wins his mind. This is why the child is featured so prominently in Shepard's dreams, and why he shows up at the "Citadel". Pre-beam and post-beam are so yesterday. I'm talking pre-Mars indoctrination, mutha-f@kas.

It's so clear if you just pretend that there's evidence for it.

I believe you were 1-upped already by a post Eden Prime-beacon coma theory.  Gonna have to go back even further.  I, personally think Shepard is still bleeding out on Torphin (spelling?) and is trying to rationalize the horrible choice he made in getting his entire unit killed.  Yeah.

[Baelyn]

justie wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

BrianWilly wrote...

The Prothean VI says that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated on Thessia, and also didn't mention that he was indoctrinated on the Cerberus station.  There, the theory is disproved.

People arguing that the VI might not be able to tell that Shepard is indoctrinated because he wasn't indoctrinated all the way at the time are just making up imaginary assumptions to prove their conclusions.  We have literally zero canonical indication that an individual's "level" of indoctrination makes any difference at all to the Prothean VI.  Any conjecture about how much or how little the VI might be able to detect a person's state of indoctrination is pure, fabricated, wishful thinking, because the fact is that the story doesn't suggest anything of the kind.  As the story was presented to us, Shepard was not indoctrinated.

Meanwhile, I'm loving all the indignant responses of "BUT THERE JUST HAS TO BE SOMETHING MORE THAN THAT!" whenever people point out that sometimes the explanation for crappy writing is simply crappy writing.  No, there doesn't have to be anything more than that.  Bad writing happens all the time, it happens with BioWare, it even happens with Mass Effect.  "The rubble scene just has to mean something!" Really?  Why?  Because you really really really want it to?  Because it would be really frustrating and unsatisfying otherwise?  The whole premise of bad writing is that it's frustrating and unsatisfying!  Saying that "It can't be bad writing, because then it would be bad!" is kinda missing the point here.

The story also presents to us that the Protheans sucked at detecting indoctrination even in the latest stages of the cycle (Javik). Deductive reasoning, hence, tells us that this Prothean is not the end-all-be-all Indoctrination detection device that people are making it out to be. You cannot prove nor disprove Indoctrination based off of this. All you can say is, we can accept the end at face value, explain supposed massive plotholes by bad writing, or you can take a look at the bigger picture and see a theory that works very well, has far fewer plotholes, and is being consistently hinted at and pushed by developers that obviously want to discuss more than they are being allowed.

Or you could think that the developers came out with a terrible ending and after the players desprately patched this other slightly less terrible ending together  decided that it was better than the one they had and to avoid the even larger **** storm of admitting bad writing decided to go with it.

Thats up to you. But I choose to accept the one that makes the most sense to me. 

Also you danced around my Prothean evidence. I'm tired of this being used as the "Indoctrination Theory Killer" when it absolutely isn't. It can certainly be more easily explained than half the plot holes if you take the ending at face value alone. 

Also, just dismissing all the plot holes due to bad writing by a company with a proven track record of being exactly the opposite at the culmination of one of their most popular and beloved series of all time can also be contrued as just as much of a cop-out (if not more) as Indoctrination Theory can be considered reaching for straws.

[justie]

Beast919 wrote...

soundhole wrote...

Ok, time to finish this.

Clearly, the Starchild was a reaper the whole time, right from the very beginning. The opening shot of him controlling a fighter ship represents the control he will have over the Alliance later. He was placed near Shepard to begin indoctrinating him as early as possible, and by the time he gets to the Defense Council, it has begun in full force. Now considered insane, the Alliance locks Shep up, though unbeknownst to them, the Reaper-child is keeping a close eye on his movements. By careful observation, Harbinger learns everything Shepard would do, every military tactic he would make and the lengths he would go through the fight the invasion and then, through crafty use of blue, red and green, wins his mind. This is why the child is featured so prominently in Shepard's dreams, and why he shows up at the "Citadel". Pre-beam and post-beam are so yesterday. I'm talking pre-Mars indoctrination, mutha-f@kas.

It's so clear if you just pretend that there's evidence for it.

I believe you were 1-upped already by a post Eden Prime-beacon coma theory.  Gonna have to go back even further.  I, personally think Shepard is still bleeding out on Torphin (spelling?) and is trying to rationalize the horrible choice he made in getting his entire unit killed.  Yeah.

I think the raid on his colony that killed his family was by the Reapers and he has been indoctrinated ever since. Top that

Modifié par justie, 15 mars 2012 - 12:45 .

[Beast919]

justie wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

soundhole wrote...

Ok, time to finish this.

Clearly, the Starchild was a reaper the whole time, right from the very beginning. The opening shot of him controlling a fighter ship represents the control he will have over the Alliance later. He was placed near Shepard to begin indoctrinating him as early as possible, and by the time he gets to the Defense Council, it has begun in full force. Now considered insane, the Alliance locks Shep up, though unbeknownst to them, the Reaper-child is keeping a close eye on his movements. By careful observation, Harbinger learns everything Shepard would do, every military tactic he would make and the lengths he would go through the fight the invasion and then, through crafty use of blue, red and green, wins his mind. This is why the child is featured so prominently in Shepard's dreams, and why he shows up at the "Citadel". Pre-beam and post-beam are so yesterday. I'm talking pre-Mars indoctrination, mutha-f@kas.

It's so clear if you just pretend that there's evidence for it.

I believe you were 1-upped already by a post Eden Prime-beacon coma theory.  Gonna have to go back even further.  I, personally think Shepard is still bleeding out on Torphin (spelling?) and is trying to rationalize the horrible choice he made in getting his entire unit killed.  Yeah.

I think the raid on his colony was by the Reapers and he has been indoctrinated ever since. Top that

Mind blown.

[Mcfly616]

It is all transpiring within Shepards subconscious....the TIM suicide mirrors Sarens to a T!!!! That's doesn't sound like a bad dream to you? After the beam hits you: "did any of Hammer make it?...No they were all decimated"(or something along those lines.) notice you hear this as you make your way to the conduit in slow motion. You ever been asleep, and heard music/or somebody talking....and when u wake up you realize you were hearing your radio alarm clock in your dream? I assume I'm not the only person this happens to....anyways....Shepard is knocked out. He hears the radio in his ear despite this fact(very possible) and on top of that the voice on the radio says "no one made it"...... hmmm....the kid tells Shep to "wake up"....its the first damn thing he says!....oh and then Shep WAKES UP IN CONCRETE RUBBLE..concrete on the citadel? Noo, pretty much metal on a space station ....I do not understand what is so hard to comprehend lol seriously what is not obvious about these things...and if you say its not explained well enough....well I would prefer to think that its just not explained thoroughly enough for you to get it....cuz Bioware is just b****slapping you with all the evidence you need

[justie]

Baelyn wrote...

justie wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

BrianWilly wrote...

The Prothean VI says that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated on Thessia, and also didn't mention that he was indoctrinated on the Cerberus station.  There, the theory is disproved.

People arguing that the VI might not be able to tell that Shepard is indoctrinated because he wasn't indoctrinated all the way at the time are just making up imaginary assumptions to prove their conclusions.  We have literally zero canonical indication that an individual's "level" of indoctrination makes any difference at all to the Prothean VI.  Any conjecture about how much or how little the VI might be able to detect a person's state of indoctrination is pure, fabricated, wishful thinking, because the fact is that the story doesn't suggest anything of the kind.  As the story was presented to us, Shepard was not indoctrinated.

Meanwhile, I'm loving all the indignant responses of "BUT THERE JUST HAS TO BE SOMETHING MORE THAN THAT!" whenever people point out that sometimes the explanation for crappy writing is simply crappy writing.  No, there doesn't have to be anything more than that.  Bad writing happens all the time, it happens with BioWare, it even happens with Mass Effect.  "The rubble scene just has to mean something!" Really?  Why?  Because you really really really want it to?  Because it would be really frustrating and unsatisfying otherwise?  The whole premise of bad writing is that it's frustrating and unsatisfying!  Saying that "It can't be bad writing, because then it would be bad!" is kinda missing the point here.

The story also presents to us that the Protheans sucked at detecting indoctrination even in the latest stages of the cycle (Javik). Deductive reasoning, hence, tells us that this Prothean is not the end-all-be-all Indoctrination detection device that people are making it out to be. You cannot prove nor disprove Indoctrination based off of this. All you can say is, we can accept the end at face value, explain supposed massive plotholes by bad writing, or you can take a look at the bigger picture and see a theory that works very well, has far fewer plotholes, and is being consistently hinted at and pushed by developers that obviously want to discuss more than they are being allowed.

Or you could think that the developers came out with a terrible ending and after the players desprately patched this other slightly less terrible ending together  decided that it was better than the one they had and to avoid the even larger **** storm of admitting bad writing decided to go with it.

Thats up to you. But I choose to accept the one that makes the most sense to me. 

Also you danced around my Prothean evidence. I'm tired of this being used as the "Indoctrination Theory Killer" when it absolutely isn't. It can certainly be more easily explained than half the plot holes if you take the ending at face value alone. 

Also, just dismissing all the plot holes due to bad writing by a company with a proven track record of being exactly the opposite at the culmination of one of their most popular and beloved series of all time can also be contrued as just as much of a cop-out (if not more) as Indoctrination Theory can be considered reaching for straws.

I didn't really dance around it I just never addressed it.

Lets really take a look at this prothean technology. We don't really have much evidence that states whether or not it is really that good we only can go on what we have been given. I don't remember anywhere in the From Ashes DLC that indicates the protheans were bad at detecting Indoctrination. In fact, as I recall they were pretty good at it because the VI Victory can instantly detect the Reapers when they break into the base.

So besides that lets take a look at the only other two Prothean VI. First the one on Thessia. We can assume it is pretty good at detecting Indoctrination because as soon as Kai Leng shows up it can tell he is indoctrinated. You would assume if Shepard was indoctrinated it would of done the exact same thing.

The other VI is the one on Ilos. Once again it detected Saren was Indoctrinated and did not stop him. It did not mention anything about Shepard being indoctrinated though.

So for all we know the VI's are 2/2. That is 100% accuracy. Whether they are always right or not who knows. All we can off is the evidence and the evidence points to them being fairly accurate with their readings.

Modifié par justie, 15 mars 2012 - 12:56 .

[Mcfly616]

A way to counter the theory of the prothean vi not detecting indoctrination....hmm I dont think the vi was there when Harby blasted Shep, was he?

[justie]

Mcfly616 wrote...

It is all transpiring within Shepards subconscious....the TIM suicide mirrors Sarens to a T!!!! That's doesn't sound like a bad dream to you? After the beam hits you: "did any of Hammer make it?...No they were all decimated"(or something along those lines.) notice you hear this as you make your way to the conduit in slow motion. You ever been asleep, and heard music/or somebody talking....and when u wake up you realize you were hearing your radio alarm clock in your dream? I assume I'm not the only person this happens to....anyways....Shepard is knocked out. He hears the radio in his ear despite this fact(very possible) and on top of that the voice on the radio says "no one made it"...... hmmm....the kid tells Shep to "wake up"....its the first damn thing he says!....oh and then Shep WAKES UP IN CONCRETE RUBBLE..concrete on the citadel? Noo, pretty much metal on a space station ....I do not understand what is so hard to comprehend lol seriously what is not obvious about these things...and if you say its not explained well enough....well I would prefer to think that its just not explained thoroughly enough for you to get it....cuz Bioware is just b****slapping you with all the evidence you need

Can you rephrase that in a way that makes you understandable?

[Beast919]

justie wrote...

I didn't really dance around it I just never addressed it.

Lets really take a look at this prothean technology. We don't really have much evidence that states whether or not it is really that good we only can go on what we have been given. I don't remember anywhere in the From Ashes DLC that indicates the protheans were bad at detecting Indoctrination. In fact, as I recall they were pretty good at it because the VI Victory can instantly detect the Reapers when they break into the base.

So besides that lets take a look at the only other two Prothean VI. First the one on Thessia. We can assume it is pretty good at detecting Indoctrination because as soon as Kai Leng shows up it can tell he is indoctrinated. You would assume if Shepard was indoctrinated it would of done the exact same thing.

The other VI is the one on Ilos. Once again it detected Saren was Indoctrinated and did not stop him. It did not mention anything about Shepard being indoctrinated though.

So for all we know the VI's are 2/2. That is 100% accuracy. Whether they are always right or not who knows. All we can off is the evidence and the evidence points to them being varly accurate with their readings.

I will point out however that the only evidence we have is for people that are *fully* indoctrinated.  Nothing to answer about the middle ground that is Shepard as we are quite certain he is still making his own decisions, but is (under our Theory) fighting the condition.  In essence, what could simply solve this is if anyone has any codex entry or what not that describes what *physically* decides whether or not someone is Indoctrinated.  I.e. what is the final step that shows they've been broken.

[SirCroft]

What people fail to understand about the Prothean VI not detecting Shepard as indoctrinated is that Shepard was not being indoctrinated before being attacked by Harbinger when trying to reach the Conduit. Kai Leng, on the other hand, was already being controlled by TIM, hence the VI detects the indoctrination. Let's also remember that TIM controlled Shepard during their final encounter, which means he had the means to control Shepard, but it wasn't active.
Also, that clip showing Shepard breathing among debrees, there's no way that's the Citadel because it was blown up and the debrees don't look like they belong to the Citadel. And, even if the debrees ARE from the Citadel, how the hell did Shepard survive the fall? Last time this happened, Shepard died and had to be rebuilt.

[Mcfly616]

I don't think its bad writing....I think it will be explained in the dlc. People just don't see how he's understand and since they don't understand it, they blame it on the writers. And for those that can't comprehend the obvious, they'll just have to watch and see...

[Beast919]

justie wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

It is all transpiring within Shepards subconscious....the TIM suicide mirrors Sarens to a T!!!! That's doesn't sound like a bad dream to you? After the beam hits you: "did any of Hammer make it?...No they were all decimated"(or something along those lines.) notice you hear this as you make your way to the conduit in slow motion. You ever been asleep, and heard music/or somebody talking....and when u wake up you realize you were hearing your radio alarm clock in your dream? I assume I'm not the only person this happens to....anyways....Shepard is knocked out. He hears the radio in his ear despite this fact(very possible) and on top of that the voice on the radio says "no one made it"...... hmmm....the kid tells Shep to "wake up"....its the first damn thing he says!....oh and then Shep WAKES UP IN CONCRETE RUBBLE..concrete on the citadel? Noo, pretty much metal on a space station ....I do not understand what is so hard to comprehend lol seriously what is not obvious about these things...and if you say its not explained well enough....well I would prefer to think that its just not explained thoroughly enough for you to get it....cuz Bioware is just b****slapping you with all the evidence you need

Can you rephrase that in a way that makes you understandable?

A) Shepard is filling out the conclusion with TIM based on his own real life experience (I.e. Saren).  It is incredibly convienient that you paragon/renegade your way to his suicide after a showdown.

The initial radio contact you hear when you get up is *actually* happening - you're hearing it and its being filtered into your dream (such as hearing an alarm clock radio's song in your dream before waking).

C) Don't know where Mcfly is goin with the 'wake up' thing, mainly cause the kid doesn't *always* say it.  Not really solid there.

[justie]

Beast919 wrote...

justie wrote...

I didn't really dance around it I just never addressed it.

Lets really take a look at this prothean technology. We don't really have much evidence that states whether or not it is really that good we only can go on what we have been given. I don't remember anywhere in the From Ashes DLC that indicates the protheans were bad at detecting Indoctrination. In fact, as I recall they were pretty good at it because the VI Victory can instantly detect the Reapers when they break into the base.

So besides that lets take a look at the only other two Prothean VI. First the one on Thessia. We can assume it is pretty good at detecting Indoctrination because as soon as Kai Leng shows up it can tell he is indoctrinated. You would assume if Shepard was indoctrinated it would of done the exact same thing.

The other VI is the one on Ilos. Once again it detected Saren was Indoctrinated and did not stop him. It did not mention anything about Shepard being indoctrinated though.

So for all we know the VI's are 2/2. That is 100% accuracy. Whether they are always right or not who knows. All we can off is the evidence and the evidence points to them being varly accurate with their readings.

I will point out however that the only evidence we have is for people that are *fully* indoctrinated.  Nothing to answer about the middle ground that is Shepard as we are quite certain he is still making his own decisions, but is (under our Theory) fighting the condition.  In essence, what could simply solve this is if anyone has any codex entry or what not that describes what *physically* decides whether or not someone is Indoctrinated.  I.e. what is the final step that shows they've been broken.

I know, but the evidence still points towards it being pretty accurate on its detection. So unless Bioware comes out with something that say's the VI's don't detect early stages of indoctrination then I have to believe that it would and that Shepard is not in those stages.

Anyways all this talk as got me in the mood to play some ME3. Gotta say the rest of the game is really good even if the ending is trash. Enjoy your debating.

Modifié par justie, 15 mars 2012 - 01:01 .

[Mcfly616]

Wow just rereading some of my post. I apologize for an typos or absence of punctuation....my phone is f***ed

[Beast919]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Wow just rereading some of my post. I apologize for an typos or absence of punctuation....my phone is f***ed

I've had to re-edit a bunch of my posts, entire words missing...just weirdness.  Dunno if I'm just tired or if there's some broken code or what....