What happens if the Prothean AI only detects indoctrinations after some point. A point Sheppard hasn´t reached.
Evidence that disprove the Indoctrination Theory
Débuté par
CommanderWilliams
, mars 15 2012 06:37
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#377
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:06
Mcfly616
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Thanks for clarifying my post Beast919. Saved me a lot of trouble. But yes I admit, the starkid saying "wake up" is not so obvious as to what he means....but none the less it makes sense after taking the other things into consideration. The fact he can say something else when u get there also makes that point questionable. But something to look at anyways
#378
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:10
Taleroth
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This is like asking someone to disprove sollipsism. You've accepted that all of presented reality is a lie. What possible evidence could disprove that? Nothing.
That is what is so bleeding insane about this entire concept. It is unfalsifiable. Even if the ending wasn't complete and total crap, if the ending was logically consistent, had appropriate themes, and character behaviors, it still could be LOLMINDCONTROL.
That is what is so bleeding insane about this entire concept. It is unfalsifiable. Even if the ending wasn't complete and total crap, if the ending was logically consistent, had appropriate themes, and character behaviors, it still could be LOLMINDCONTROL.
#379
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:11
Beast919
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JELLAQTP wrote...
What happens if the Prothean AI only detects indoctrinations after some point. A point Sheppard hasn´t reached.
That's my theory, personally...the only way my poor human brain can fathom being able to detect indoc is if it has something to do with vitals/brain waves, and since Shep isn't experiencing the symptoms (i.e., he isn't doing crazy **** in the Reapers' name), perhaps he isn't victim to the actual physical changes (yet). Who knows. Pretty iffy point.
#380
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:13
Mcfly616
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Hahaha valid point Taleroth....that's why I dont see the point in getting too heated about it, we're just sharing our views, maybe with a tad bit of sarcasm and ball busting....but its all in the name of good discussion, however headache inducing it may be
#381
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:14
Lugaidster
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To all the prothean-VI-kills-indoctrination-theory proponents out there, let's do an exercise.
If Shepard is indoctrinated why would Harbinger try to indoctrinate him? The lore itself establishes that you can't detect indoctrination until it's too late. How would the VI detect indoctrination if there wasn't indoctrination? Why would Harbinger try to indoctrinate Shepard if he was indoctrinated? Both event don't happen at the same time, and Shepard's will is not forced until the very end. Why would the VI detect reapers controlling Shepard if the reapers aren't controlling Shepard?
If Shepard is indoctrinated why would Harbinger try to indoctrinate him? The lore itself establishes that you can't detect indoctrination until it's too late. How would the VI detect indoctrination if there wasn't indoctrination? Why would Harbinger try to indoctrinate Shepard if he was indoctrinated? Both event don't happen at the same time, and Shepard's will is not forced until the very end. Why would the VI detect reapers controlling Shepard if the reapers aren't controlling Shepard?
#382
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:15
Mcfly616
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We'll know in due time....whatever awaits us from Bioware
#383
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:15
Lugaidster
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Taleroth wrote...
This is like asking someone to disprove sollipsism. You've accepted that all of presented reality is a lie. What possible evidence could disprove that? Nothing.
That is what is so bleeding insane about this entire concept. It is unfalsifiable. Even if the ending wasn't complete and total crap, if the ending was logically consistent, had appropriate themes, and character behaviors, it still could be LOLMINDCONTROL.
Fair. Then why try to disprove it?
#384
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:16
Beast919
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Lugaidster wrote...
To all the prothean-VI-kills-indoctrination-theory proponents out there, let's do an exercise.
If Shepard is indoctrinated why would Harbinger try to indoctrinate him? The lore itself establishes that you can't detect indoctrination until it's too late. How would the VI detect indoctrination if there wasn't indoctrination? Why would Harbinger try to indoctrinate Shepard if he was indoctrinated? Both event don't happen at the same time, and Shepard's will is not forced until the very end. Why would the VI detect reapers controlling Shepard if the reapers aren't controlling Shepard?
Its because a large portion of the indoc theory includes that the kid is a phantom/symbol of the indoctrination at work - thus, Shepard has been being assaulted mentally the entire game, and thus, *something* could in theory be detected by the VI. Thats the notion, anyhoo.
#385
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:16
UNOCK
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Even if you gave the Indoc-theory any credentials, did anyone here bother looking up how indoctrination works?
It's not visions of grandeur and living in your own little dream. Indoctrination works through voices in your head. It begins easily enough - you might be able to fight it off for a little while. But it gets stronger. And the voices in your head doesn't directly take control at once. They manipulate. Searching your memories and priorities for something they can use to have you do something they want.
Of course, one could be fully indoctrinated in a few hours - leaving you a drooling husk within days. The Illusive Man was no doubt indoctrinated as slowly and carefully as they could - and he still ended up looking like he did at the end.
When you're being indoctrinated - there is a point where you realize that you are indoctrinated. And then there is a point when you realize you cannot fight it any longer. (Grayson experienced that fully)
If for some reason the Indoctrination theory is correct, the ending STILL sucked, because BW isn't following their own Canon. No matter how you put the endings of ME3, they are wrong. They're illogical. There are things in these endings - no matter - which serves no purpose, except setting the foundations for Mass Effect: Armageddon. (Which I don't object to, btw)
If only they could have found a way to set up the sequel while remaining true to the story so far - and not blow the entire series full of plot-holes.
It's not visions of grandeur and living in your own little dream. Indoctrination works through voices in your head. It begins easily enough - you might be able to fight it off for a little while. But it gets stronger. And the voices in your head doesn't directly take control at once. They manipulate. Searching your memories and priorities for something they can use to have you do something they want.
Of course, one could be fully indoctrinated in a few hours - leaving you a drooling husk within days. The Illusive Man was no doubt indoctrinated as slowly and carefully as they could - and he still ended up looking like he did at the end.
When you're being indoctrinated - there is a point where you realize that you are indoctrinated. And then there is a point when you realize you cannot fight it any longer. (Grayson experienced that fully)
If for some reason the Indoctrination theory is correct, the ending STILL sucked, because BW isn't following their own Canon. No matter how you put the endings of ME3, they are wrong. They're illogical. There are things in these endings - no matter - which serves no purpose, except setting the foundations for Mass Effect: Armageddon. (Which I don't object to, btw)
If only they could have found a way to set up the sequel while remaining true to the story so far - and not blow the entire series full of plot-holes.
#386
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:16
heretica
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Taleroth wrote...
This is like asking someone to disprove sollipsism. You've accepted that all of presented reality is a lie. What possible evidence could disprove that? Nothing.
Descartes did that by demonstrating the existance of god.
OOOOH SNAP.
#387
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:20
SirCroft
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But if Harbinger is controlling Shepard's mind, nothing stops it from choosing an avatar in Shepard's mind that would make Shepard easier to manipulate. The kid is real, or maybe it's just Shepard seeing things, but this doesn't necessarily connect with the indoctrination theory.Beast919 wrote...
Lugaidster wrote...
To all the prothean-VI-kills-indoctrination-theory proponents out there, let's do an exercise.
If Shepard is indoctrinated why would Harbinger try to indoctrinate him? The lore itself establishes that you can't detect indoctrination until it's too late. How would the VI detect indoctrination if there wasn't indoctrination? Why would Harbinger try to indoctrinate Shepard if he was indoctrinated? Both event don't happen at the same time, and Shepard's will is not forced until the very end. Why would the VI detect reapers controlling Shepard if the reapers aren't controlling Shepard?
Its because a large portion of the indoc theory includes that the kid is a phantom/symbol of the indoctrination at work - thus, Shepard has been being assaulted mentally the entire game, and thus, *something* could in theory be detected by the VI. Thats the notion, anyhoo.
Modifié par SirCroft, 15 mars 2012 - 01:21 .
#388
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:22
Beast919
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UNOCK wrote...
Even if you gave the Indoc-theory any credentials, did anyone here bother looking up how indoctrination works?
It's not visions of grandeur and living in your own little dream. Indoctrination works through voices in your head. It begins easily enough - you might be able to fight it off for a little while. But it gets stronger. And the voices in your head doesn't directly take control at once. They manipulate. Searching your memories and priorities for something they can use to have you do something they want.
Of course, one could be fully indoctrinated in a few hours - leaving you a drooling husk within days. The Illusive Man was no doubt indoctrinated as slowly and carefully as they could - and he still ended up looking like he did at the end.
When you're being indoctrinated - there is a point where you realize that you are indoctrinated. And then there is a point when you realize you cannot fight it any longer. (Grayson experienced that fully)
If for some reason the Indoctrination theory is correct, the ending STILL sucked, because BW isn't following their own Canon. No matter how you put the endings of ME3, they are wrong. They're illogical. There are things in these endings - no matter - which serves no purpose, except setting the foundations for Mass Effect: Armageddon. (Which I don't object to, btw)
If only they could have found a way to set up the sequel while remaining true to the story so far - and not blow the entire series full of plot-holes.
Couple points -
1, the kid would be an OBVIOUS thing to screw with Shepard over, and quite convieniently, he's put in the most important position in the entire series.
2, your final vision of TIM is in what is now suspected as not being reality. Even if it is reality, you saw video in the Cerberus base of him approving modifications to his body of reaper tech. **** don't just grow out of the air, he put it in his own damn body.
3, Your point about the indoc being done in a short time is supported, it would leave you a brainless husk, but thats only been said about doing it *ALL* at once. The point of this theorey is that its been weighing on Shepard for a long time, slowly weaing him down, and then Harby makes a final push while he's in a weakened state.
4, Its a very short jump from voices in your head to dream sequences in your head while unconcious. Is to me at least, doesn't seem that unreasonable. Hell, the engineers on the derelict reaper shared entire memories. Thats a step beyond voices in the head.
#389
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:22
Mcfly616
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I believe he's either dreaming or indoctrinated. But when it comes to the kid being just a vision to Shepard ever since the beginning....idk how I feel about it....it could very well be possible, but I've heard his picture is on the memorial wall at the citadel.....however, regardless if the kid was real in the beginning or if it was Harbinger, I do believe Harbinger is using the kids image at the end in order to present Shepard with something he sypathizes with
#390
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:23
Beast919
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SirCroft wrote...
But if Harbinger is controlling Shepard's mind, nothing stops it from choosing an avatar in Shepard's mind that would make Shepard easier to manipulate. The kid is real, or maybe it's just Shepard seeing things, but this doesn't necessarily connect with the indoctrination theory.Beast919 wrote...
Lugaidster wrote...
To all the prothean-VI-kills-indoctrination-theory proponents out there, let's do an exercise.
If Shepard is indoctrinated why would Harbinger try to indoctrinate him? The lore itself establishes that you can't detect indoctrination until it's too late. How would the VI detect indoctrination if there wasn't indoctrination? Why would Harbinger try to indoctrinate Shepard if he was indoctrinated? Both event don't happen at the same time, and Shepard's will is not forced until the very end. Why would the VI detect reapers controlling Shepard if the reapers aren't controlling Shepard?
Its because a large portion of the indoc theory includes that the kid is a phantom/symbol of the indoctrination at work - thus, Shepard has been being assaulted mentally the entire game, and thus, *something* could in theory be detected by the VI. Thats the notion, anyhoo.
The kid could be real, and it could be something Harby latches on to - but that runs you into the problem of "if shepard isn't being indoctrinated slowly over time, and they do it all at once at the end, he becomes a drooling husk and there's no reason to have turned him instead of laserblasting his face off."
#391
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:26
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How about this line...Shepard: "So there's no hope?"......Starkid: "you have hope, more than you know".....I found this one to be very interesting
#392
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:27
kogunenjou
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Shepard is himself a catalyst. He's the reason the galaxy is fighting against the Reapers. What better way to destroy them all than by taking Shepard and turning him against the offensive that he built?MisterNugNug wrote...
Why Indoctrinate Shepard? If he/she is lying on the ground, why not kill Shepard? One individual has amassed the galaxy's alien races together; united them to confront you. Killing him/her would destroy morale and resolve amongst the races.
#393
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:28
Mcfly616
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Found this very interesting as well.....Shepard: "so there's no hope?".....Starkid: "you have hope, more than you know"....
#394
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:29
Doctor Quinn
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How is it that we are assuming that Victory is infallible? Yes Victory can detect indoctrinated forces that have reaper tech grafted to their faces. I think shep can figure those out without that kind of help. But we do not get an example of him detecting someone who is indoctrinated, but not completely controlled and bound with reaper tech. Second Vigil mentioned they had problems detecting indoctrination. Indoctrination is a process. It has been canonically described as such. At the early stages it is nothing more than psychological manipulation.
#395
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:30
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oops didn't think that posted the first time....man something is up with this input
#396
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:34
Mcfly616
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Well he does dream about that kid throughout the game....the dialog at the end suggests its been several months since Earth was invaded. Maybe the kid is a Harby getting his head....I admit that's not nearly as clear cut or obvious as other things I've notice....but I'm just speculating
#398
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:37
Deltateam Elcor
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Lets make it simple, husks are generally mostly machine with bits of organic material.
Now look at Kai Leng, his body is pretty much the same, except that entire limbs are synthetic and most of his organic systems have been modified, perhaps Victory detects how much of a person is synthetic and if it goes over a certain percentage, it raises alarms.
Now you could say that Shepard was also in this sort of state, however the modifications were only to fix him up, most of them by the looks of the ME2 videos are there to keep his bones in one place while the repairs were done.
It was not as extensive as Leng's, frankly.
We cannot say how it detects so, we can only assume that it is irrelevant for now and a poor mans device to disproving something that cannot be disproved, since it has not been proven.
Anyone in philosophy knows this.
Now look at Kai Leng, his body is pretty much the same, except that entire limbs are synthetic and most of his organic systems have been modified, perhaps Victory detects how much of a person is synthetic and if it goes over a certain percentage, it raises alarms.
Now you could say that Shepard was also in this sort of state, however the modifications were only to fix him up, most of them by the looks of the ME2 videos are there to keep his bones in one place while the repairs were done.
It was not as extensive as Leng's, frankly.
We cannot say how it detects so, we can only assume that it is irrelevant for now and a poor mans device to disproving something that cannot be disproved, since it has not been proven.
Anyone in philosophy knows this.
#399
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:38
Beast919
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Mcfly616 wrote...
Well he does dream about that kid throughout the game....the dialog at the end suggests its been several months since Earth was invaded. Maybe the kid is a Harby getting his head....I admit that's not nearly as clear cut or obvious as other things I've notice....but I'm just speculating
If we're talking how they could communicate the idea of Shepard being indoctrinated, this is about the only way they could do it without going overboard. If you were just chillin on the ship and started hearing voices, it would be an OBVIOUS wtf.
But the kid himself is just weird. Why does he say "You can't save me" - but the dudes on the shuttle are cool? Why does he dissapear without a sound? Why does he not like Shepard at all anyways?
Why is he always presented as running away from Shepard in the dreams, yet in the final dream, he's running into the arms of.....another Shepard?
And as to hearing voices, those dream sequences are filled with things that would haunt Shepard, things that Harby is searching for to try and screw with your head. And yet out of all of those things that are haunting you, its the child he picks to focus on.
#400
Posté 15 mars 2012 - 01:46
soundhole
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Beast919 wrote...
soundhole wrote...
Ok, time to finish this.
Clearly, the Starchild was a reaper the whole time, right from the very beginning. The opening shot of him controlling a fighter ship represents the control he will have over the Alliance later. He was placed near Shepard to begin indoctrinating him as early as possible, and by the time he gets to the Defense Council, it has begun in full force. Now considered insane, the Alliance locks Shep up, though unbeknownst to them, the Reaper-child is keeping a close eye on his movements. By careful observation, Harbinger learns everything Shepard would do, every military tactic he would make and the lengths he would go through the fight the invasion and then, through crafty use of blue, red and green, wins his mind. This is why the child is featured so prominently in Shepard's dreams, and why he shows up at the "Citadel". Pre-beam and post-beam are so yesterday. I'm talking pre-Mars indoctrination, mutha-f@kas.
It's so clear if you just pretend that there's evidence for it.
I believe you were 1-upped already by a post Eden Prime-beacon coma theory. Gonna have to go back even further. I, personally think Shepard is still bleeding out on Torphin (spelling?) and is trying to rationalize the horrible choice he made in getting his entire unit killed. Yeah.
Dammit!
/wrists
