455 réponses à ce sujet

[Cobra's_back]

Sorry forgot to say I love your wok ShaneP. It just seems the ending is very open.

[111987]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

I love your work. In Arrival Shepard was captured and drugged. He could have been implanted with self-replicating nanides Reaper described in the Mass Effect book Retribution. The process could be slow in Shepard’s case just like Saren and TIM.
It is also possible Grandpa is just talking to his grandson about a legend. “Legend as in old story: a story that has been passed down for generations, especially one that is presented as history but is unlikely to be true”

Two problems;

1. If that's true, the Reapers can just assume direct control of Shepard. It's been months since 'Arrival'. They would have taken full control of Shepard before the war even began.

2. If you didn't play Arrival, then an Alliance team goes in and does the job for you. So in that scenario, Shepard was never in contact with Object Rho.

[Gbentley]

Naarad wrote...

Gbentley wrote...
There has been some good evidence discussed at points in the thread but it always just turns into arguing and opinions like if we were arguing religion lol.

Sorry, but no. We've presented points that were very well elaborated and they've been discarded as either being "nonsense", "idiots", or in denial. 

As I said several pages ago, it's a fight you can't win.

Really? Because if anything is being open minded. I think you have just lost perspective because you have been raging now for so long trying to win an argument. I agree, there are some really stupid arguments for the indoc theory, but there is also some reasonable points for it. True that nothing can be set in stone and that this really is the ending, and will forever go down as one if the worse endings ever. You need to have an open mind at least and try to see how it could be or cant be instead if just rambling on. I doubt that this will be the case.

[Gbentley]

At best sone if the best ideas that support this theory are all ambiguous at best and would only ever seem more legit if bioware adds in dlc to support these things.

[Cobra's_back]

When you read the Mass Effect books it implies that process of indoctrination can take time. Play the game Arrival and you will see that Shepard was captured. TIM could also have implanted Shepard. The book states that Grayson was implanted with the Reaper. He could be fighting it all the way. It is possible.

It is also possible that Grandpa is telling his Grandson a story. A legend doesn't have to be true. Could explain the holes.

[Zyrious]

I now preside new evidence: The writers themselves. They have now stated in behind the scenes details: No Post-ending DLC intended, Starchild is a real character, originally more indepth but they thought giving out too much info was "lame". They wanted to purposefully and intentfully go for shock value. The ending as is, IS meant to conclude the story.

Have fun with that.

[111987]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

When you read the Mass Effect books it implies that process of indoctrination can take time. Play the game Arrival and you will see that Shepard was captured. TIM could also have implanted Shepard. The book states that Grayson was implanted with the Reaper. He could be fighting it all the way. It is possible.

It is also possible that Grandpa is telling his Grandson a story. A legend doesn't have to be true. Could explain the holes.

No, I'm sorry but it isn't possible. If Shepard was implanted during Arrival, by the time of ME3 he would be obeying the Reaper's every whim. You can only hold out against normal indoctrination for so long; you CANNOT fight the implants for more then a few days. Once they self-replicate enough, it simply doesn't matter how strong willed you are.

And like I said, not every Shepard comes into contact with Object Rho.

[Cobra's_back]

Gbentley wrote...

At best sone if the best ideas that support this theory are all ambiguous at best and would only ever seem more legit if bioware adds in dlc to support these things.

All of them are just theories because the story had holes in it. This could be the point. The Grandson asked if the story really happened. Grandpa states something like it was so long ago that some of the details could be missing. This is the beauty of a legend. It may not be all true. BW may have actually intended to have holes. Don’t know for sure.

[ShaneP]

I understand the argument being made, but the point I was attempting to make personally was that it's clear to me that Bioware had this ending mapped out for a long time. And that is why I feel it's unlikely that he was ever meant to be indoctrinated, the idea that this really was the real ending seems to be supported by the evidence in the games.

[Cobra's_back]

111987 wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

When you read the Mass Effect books it implies that process of indoctrination can take time. Play the game Arrival and you will see that Shepard was captured. TIM could also have implanted Shepard. The book states that Grayson was implanted with the Reaper. He could be fighting it all the way. It is possible.

It is also possible that Grandpa is telling his Grandson a story. A legend doesn't have to be true. Could explain the holes.

No, I'm sorry but it isn't possible. If Shepard was implanted during Arrival, by the time of ME3 he would be obeying the Reaper's every whim. You can only hold out against normal indoctrination for so long; you CANNOT fight the implants for more then a few days. Once they self-replicate enough, it simply doesn't matter how strong willed you are.

And like I said, not every Shepard comes into contact with Object Rho.

Saren appeared to last a long time and so did TIM.

[Cobra's_back]

I'm not totally sold on any theory. It could just have been a story. The mystery makes the game fun for me at least.

[Gbentley]

Gbentley wrote...

At best sone if the best ideas that support this theory are all ambiguous at best and would only ever seem more legit if bioware adds in dlc to support these things.



All of them are just theories because the story had holes in it. This could be the point. The Grandson asked if the story really happened. Grandpa states something like it was so long ago that some of the details could be missing. This is the beauty of a legend. It may not be all true. BW may have actually intended to have holes. Don’t know for sure.



I agree, I wrote earlier that this was more then likely the intended ending, and that with EA's crusade against used games and that this could be preventative measure for ppl selling off used copies. They may add dlc that will give further closure to ppl who want to invest time in more shep story getting ppl to keep the games longer while sales go up. They keep telling us to hold on to our games. Plus te child asks if he can hear more stories, plus the a message prompts you to keep playing and adding to the legend of sheps story with dlc.

[Gbentley]

Sorry the last post is quoting ghostbusters101. Writing on the forum with my phone.... Pain in the ass.

[Cobra's_back]

I agree with Gbentley.

[colateral]

The main problem I have with the indoctrination theory is that if it is true and the only ending that results in Shepard breaking free of the reapers control is the Destroy ending then why is it the default choice that is available right away. If that is the choice that the reapers are trying not to have Shepard choose then it should be control or synthesis that is available right away and you can only unlock destroy if you had full military assets going into the final battle. That's just my two cents.

[DextroDNA]

I think the best way to describe the theory (which I fully support and helped solve) is to think of it as; "True until proven false". Nobody that claims the theory is false has actually come up with any solid evidence that it is untrue, whereas the theorists have tonnes of solid evidence that it IS true. I wish all these people saying it's false would just sit down and admit it - so far nobody has been able to disprove it, and there is too much evidence to say it's false. There's no point in just saying; "It's a stupid idea and doesn't make sense.", because there's no evidence to back up your statement. Just accept the fact that the theory DOES make sense and is actually very likely.

[MisterNugNug]

kogunenjou wrote...Shepard is himself a catalyst. He's the reason the galaxy is fighting against the Reapers. What better way to destroy them all than by taking Shepard and turning him against the offensive that he built?

What good would Indoctrinating Shepard at this point in time serve?  Shepard does what exactly?  Convince or persuade the alien armadas to surrender?  That's not going to happen because, ultimately the Reapers aren't looking to rule or subjugate the alien races, they want to DESTROY THEM.  They want to destroy organic life.  This is the fight for the fate of the galaxy, its going to go down to every last man/woman/reaper.

 The reapers are destroying the allied forces as we speak.  They JUST stopped Shepard from reaching the beam of light.  He/She is lying in rubble on the ground, why not just kill them?  

[MisterNugNug]

RussianZombeh wrote...

I think the best way to describe the theory (which I fully support and helped solve) is to think of it as; "True until proven false". Nobody that claims the theory is false has actually come up with any solid evidence that it is untrue, whereas the theorists have tonnes of solid evidence that it IS true. I wish all these people saying it's false would just sit down and admit it - so far nobody has been able to disprove it, and there is too much evidence to say it's false. There's no point in just saying; "It's a stupid idea and doesn't make sense.", because there's no evidence to back up your statement. Just accept the fact that the theory DOES make sense and is actually very likely.

I'm only speaking for myself, but I can't buy into the theory.  The theory is very plausible, I'm more than willing to grant you and others who believe in the theory that much at least.  Here's the thing, if I was in your camp, I'd be pissed right now.  Not happy (that the endings we do have aren't real, so there's hope that the ending can redeem itself);  if the theory is true, why in hell would anyone in their right mind end the game right there?  Seriously.  

[DextroDNA]

MisterNugNug wrote...

RussianZombeh wrote...

I think the best way to describe the theory (which I fully support and helped solve) is to think of it as; "True until proven false". Nobody that claims the theory is false has actually come up with any solid evidence that it is untrue, whereas the theorists have tonnes of solid evidence that it IS true. I wish all these people saying it's false would just sit down and admit it - so far nobody has been able to disprove it, and there is too much evidence to say it's false. There's no point in just saying; "It's a stupid idea and doesn't make sense.", because there's no evidence to back up your statement. Just accept the fact that the theory DOES make sense and is actually very likely.

I'm only speaking for myself, but I can't buy into the theory.  The theory is very plausible, I'm more than willing to grant you and others who believe in the theory that much at least.  Here's the thing, if I was in your camp, I'd be pissed right now.  Not happy (that the endings we do have aren't real, so there's hope that the ending can redeem itself);  if the theory is true, why in hell would anyone in their right mind end the game right there?  Seriously.  

It's obvious why isn't it? You can tell the quality of the games degraded leading up to ME3, and it seems like at the end they just couldn't be arsed, or are trying to squeeze more money out of us for DLC that changes the ending or a new game.

[ShaneP]

Look at the evidence that I posted. When you read it with an open mind, it becomes clear that it's a theme that has been present since ME2. No indoctrination, no secrecy, just an idea that Bioware have had for a while.

And as I also said, the endings DO explain the manufacture of the human-reaper hybrid in ME2 as well. There really is no smoking gun that proves the indoctrination theory, it's just speculation without hard evidence.

Modifié par ShaneP, 15 mars 2012 - 09:37 .

[ShaneP]

http://social.biowar...index/9999272/1

Evidently the content within this new app pretty much squashes the indoctrination theory, and pushes the viewpoint that these really were the intended endings.

I hate to say 'I told you so' but... yeah!

[Cobra's_back]

ShaneP wrote...

http://social.biowar...index/9999272/1

Evidently the content within this new app pretty much squashes the indoctrination theory, and pushes the viewpoint that these really were the intended endings.

I hate to say 'I told you so' but... yeah!

Wow, thanks. They really did make a sloppy ending. I would have preferred the story without all the scenes cut out like Liara and Garrus dying. Then I wouldn’t have been confused seeing them come out of the Normandy.

[Gbentley]

http://social.biowar...index/9999272/1

It's official! Worst ending ever. Don't know how Casey and the writers saw this as a great ending to a epic story.

[Gbentley]

Link quoted from above.

[Mcfly616]

To some of the people wondering why he could become indoctrinated or when it happened....there have been points made earlier in the thread you could go back and take a look at, some pointing at the fact:
the Normandy has the Reaper IFF that they got from the derelict Reaper in ME2(where the cerberus scientist all became indoctrinated. In ME3 Vega says "do you hear that humming? Or is it just me?" If it were just the sound of the ship, you would think he wouldn't even mention it since he's an alliance soldier that's certainly used to being on a ship.) Not to mention right before the final battle they do mention its been several months since the Reapers invaded(several months living on a ship with reaper technology.)

ME3 is the first game in the series where Shepard has dreams(surely the writers wouldn't add this without a reason?) In these dreams Shepard is haunted/taunted by Harbinger(you can hear his whispers). The final scene with Starkid is the final phaze of these (dreams or indoctrination) where Harbinger embodys the child because he already knows Shepard is sympathetic to it due to the fact that Harbinger was the one toying with his mind in the dream segments.

Some interest quotes pointed out were:

The radio chatter after Shepard gets blasted by Harbingers beam, as he is walking to the conduit, you hear the voices on the radio say that nobody made it and Hammer was decimated.(this could be Shepard hearing this even tho he is unconcious from Harbingers beam. Sorta how anybody can hear music or chatter in their dreams and wake up to realize it was your radio alarm clock....what you're hearing is real but you heard it in your dream in real time. Shepard has a radio in his ear(always has put his hand to his ear to hear communications clearer) and was knocked unconcious(the final scene of him inhaling is proof of this). He was hearing the real radio chatter in his dream. Nobody made it to the conduit. Including him.

Anderson says:"it looks like the collector ship."
(He's saying the interior of citadel reminds him of the collector ship, idk why he would say this bcuz it didn't look anything like it. However possibly he said it because when we dream a lot of the time the settings are drawn from places we may be familiar with. Possibly Harby once again manipulating his mind to make him feel as if it is all reality?).

It would appear TIM forces you to shoot Anderson by using indoctrination. However at the very moment you shoot Anderson, TIM says:"Look what THEY can do!"(the Reapers/Harby are controlling this whole setting) another part of this scene that is quite dreamlike is that you can get TIM to off himself in the same exact way Saren did. It's almost a mirrored image.(dreams draw from familiar experiences).

The first thing the Starchild says to you is: "Wake Up" (this is one of the more obvious hints, and has evidence in the last scene of Shepard showing that he was merely unconscious)

Another quote from Starchild: "You have hope, more than you know..." (This may be Harby referencing the fact the Shepard believes this dream-state to be reality, and isnt aware of the fact that he still has hope because he's unconscious and the fight isnt over.) Starchild then goes on to list your choices(this may in some way be a test that is not yet clearly understanded yet. He blatantly makes the Destroy option look unattractive to the player/Shep and moves on from talking too much about it before moving onto the other 2 options which would obviously be more preferable to the Reapers)

The last scene of Shepard inhaling I feel is pretty CONCRETE evidence(get it? Lol) there's no concrete on the citadel, which means he's on Earth. (he was last on Earth when he got blasted by Harby, and then got up in the weird slow motion state.) I think we can conclude Shep wouldn't have survived on an exploding space station, that is plummeting to Earth and re-entering the atmosphere and then slamming into the planet at thousands of miles per hour. Which leaves the question, what other way is there for Shepard to be alive other than being unconscious in Earths concrete rubble?

Still haven't heard an explanation for why Shepard can be on top of the Citadel/Crucible in space, and breath without a mask....oh wait I have...something about poor writing and "space magic"....sounds like those are just reaching for straws....(however if this whole part is taking place while Shep is unconscious,well the oxygen really wouldn't matter right?)


By the way, the Reapers would rather have Shepard in his entirety rather than vaporizing him(evidence of this is in the Mass Effect Redemption graphic novel. The novel takes place in the 2 years in between his death at the beginning of ME2 and when he is resurrected by the Lazarus Project. While on her mission to recover Sheps body, Liara discovers the Shadow Brokers agents had a deal with the Collectors who were under direct control by Harby to get Shepards body, for reasons unknown) the Reapers have other interests in Shepard.

As for the scene of Shepard inhaling, only being available in the Destroy ending, I posted a theory(and I'll admit, this is just a theory with no real evidence to support, but nonetheless something to consider.) Due to the fact that I believe he is dreaming or indoctrinated(which imo there is good evidence to support as stated above), a theory of mine is that Shepard is alive no matter what you choose to do. But they only give the player a hint of that with an Easter egg. Some Easter eggs have stipulations in order view or discover them. The stipulation in order to see the Easter egg scene of Shep alive, is to make the decision that Shep has always set out to do, by sticking to your guns and destroying the Reapers. Now some may say it can't be Canon bcuz its an Easter egg and Easter eggs can't be Canon when its only in one ending. But an example would be the extra "Easter egg" scene at the end of Halo 3. This scene shows Master Chief and Cortana drifting off in space towards an unusual planetary structure....this scene is canon to the story, and really happens. However, it is only viewable through the stipulation that you beat the game on the hardest difficulty....

I understand all don't share my views. And I enjoy healthy debate. I admit some of the stuff above is mere speculation, that I dont even know what to make of it. However some of the things I've said I truly believe to be good solid if not subtle evidence. And I just want to throw it out there that when I beat the game and saw Shep, my mind immediaty thought "it was all in his head!" I was never mad at thinking "this is a terrible ending" because I knew it wasn't the end. Its the twist. There's a twist in every Bioware game. When I purchase a Bioware game I know at some point there's going to be a mindf*** plot twist that I won't see coming. And they pulled it off again. I'm surprised that anybody that has played the first KotoR would be surprised by this. I just think its over peoples heads because they didn't expect Bioware to pull something like that. I admit it is a move I've never heard of any developer doing but nonetheless I immediately knew it was a dream during the end credits. If u think of dreams, a lot of them have familiar themes to.your real life experiences yet have obvious inconsistencies with reality itself. Many dreams also end abrubtly and not how you plan. You don't see it coming. This is what went through my head atleast.

I understand there was a thread posted today from someone at Bioware stating that they understand there's debate about the end and that they will comment in due time and they are listening to all feedback.
A lot of people think this disproves and endgame dlc, but the only thing I take away from it is just standard PR talk. Ofcourse developers look at feedback....it doesn't mean theyre taking it to create endings preferable to the players.
Imo I believe Bioware has the game completed. They just cut the ending out of the initial release(it was already finished like From Ashes dlc) so that the shock value of the twist would marinate, before releasing it shortly after. Of course I don't think they planned on the backlash being this bad, but I think they did intend it to get people talking and excited for more.

Why would they tell us to keep our saves? No reason to keep our last save if its not going to be "post-ending/endgame" dlc. If it were pre-ending dlc, there would be no reason to hold onto our last saves because we would just be able to start a new playthrough and experience it that way. There would be no reason to keep our last save if Shepard is truly dead and the ending that was, is the ending that is