Honestly I think the indoctrination theory makes a lot of sense. My problem with it is that most of it can simply go down to, "wow, that ending was really poorly handled and illogical." (The gun with unlimited ammo for example. Yes, that is dream like. It is also possibly a short cut since you don't have time to pick up ammo in a slow-mo scene. Or yes, the god child could have been trying to make you choose something bad, OR it could just be a terrible terrible ending.) Not all of it, but enough that I haven't fallen into the indoctrination camp.
Evidence that disprove the Indoctrination Theory
Débuté par
CommanderWilliams
, mars 15 2012 06:37
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#452
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 07:15
magor1988x
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Well Shepard cannot have been under the influence of any Indoctrination through the final mission to destroy Cerberus. The Prothean VI on Thessia scans for signs of Indoctrination & states that none of Shepards crew are affected, and when Kai Leng is about to enter the room & the VI is about to shut down it says something to the affect of "Detecting Indoctrinated [individual]" (Can't remember the exact word he used but he specifically pointed out Kai Leng was indoctrinated)... this means he can properly identify Indocrinated individuals even after 50,000 years.
So if Shepard was not Indoc'ed up until right before the final push that means he would have had to become Indoc'ed on Earth or on the Citadel. While it is entirely possible that Harbringer & the rest of the Reapers attempted to do so in the moments on the CItadel all previous data on Indoc'ing in the game seems to point to the fact that it takes time & that powerful minds can resist attempts at Indoc'ing (Saren on Virmire momentarily, Benezia on Noveria, TIM on the CItadel, etc).
So:
1) A long subtle Indoc'ing over the period of all three games & repeated exposure did not occur. We can conclude that this is a fact b/c the Prothean VI found on Thessia distinctly stated such twice.
2) Powerful minds can resist Indoc'ing
3) The strongest argument in favor of Indoc'ing is thus:
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. It is mentioned in Mass Effect 3 several times: Huerta Med Center w/the Asari Commando being treated for PTSD (To the right of the front entrance), Udina comments on it after promoting Williams/Alenko to SPECTRE status, & several times major companions ask Shepard how he is doing. The Paragon tree has Shepard admitting how hard this war is hitting him. The dreams/nightmares Shepard experiences are classic symptoms of PTSD. Seeing a child killed is a common trigger for PTSD, particularly in soldiers & law enforcement officials.
The longer an individual is on the frontline the more likely they are to break from combat fatigue/PTSD, while Shepard hasn't constantly been on the frontline throughout the series he has been on the frontlines at a much higher rate than your standard soldier.
Current American Special Forces units tend to see shorter deployments due to the extreme stress they are put under. Commander Shepard was an N7 Special Forces soldier preME1 & up until joining the SPECTRES another elite Special Forces unit. All three origins (Sole Survivor/War Hero/Ruthless) have Shepard seeing brutal combat prior to becoming a SPECTRE. After becoming a spectre Shepard engaged in further brutal combat to stop Saren, after that Shepard died, immediately after being brought back he enterred into another conflict & faced brutal combat.
The longest vacation Shepard has had in the time since the beginning of ME1 until the beginning of ME3 was during his/her incarceration with the Alliance... Not exactly an easy time to come to terms with everything that has happened.
So you could argue that Shepard was not mentally at his/her best when facing possible Indoc'ing & thus more vulnerable to it. However, Shepard was dedicated & focused on the task of defeating the Reapers & up until the beam of light never wavered from that task. Shepard's last act before the beam of light is desperately trying to reach the console & fire off the Crucible.
So no. I don't think Shepard was Indoctrinated when the choice between Destroy/Control/Synthesis was being made.
So if Shepard was not Indoc'ed up until right before the final push that means he would have had to become Indoc'ed on Earth or on the Citadel. While it is entirely possible that Harbringer & the rest of the Reapers attempted to do so in the moments on the CItadel all previous data on Indoc'ing in the game seems to point to the fact that it takes time & that powerful minds can resist attempts at Indoc'ing (Saren on Virmire momentarily, Benezia on Noveria, TIM on the CItadel, etc).
So:
1) A long subtle Indoc'ing over the period of all three games & repeated exposure did not occur. We can conclude that this is a fact b/c the Prothean VI found on Thessia distinctly stated such twice.
2) Powerful minds can resist Indoc'ing
3) The strongest argument in favor of Indoc'ing is thus:
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. It is mentioned in Mass Effect 3 several times: Huerta Med Center w/the Asari Commando being treated for PTSD (To the right of the front entrance), Udina comments on it after promoting Williams/Alenko to SPECTRE status, & several times major companions ask Shepard how he is doing. The Paragon tree has Shepard admitting how hard this war is hitting him. The dreams/nightmares Shepard experiences are classic symptoms of PTSD. Seeing a child killed is a common trigger for PTSD, particularly in soldiers & law enforcement officials.
The longer an individual is on the frontline the more likely they are to break from combat fatigue/PTSD, while Shepard hasn't constantly been on the frontline throughout the series he has been on the frontlines at a much higher rate than your standard soldier.
Current American Special Forces units tend to see shorter deployments due to the extreme stress they are put under. Commander Shepard was an N7 Special Forces soldier preME1 & up until joining the SPECTRES another elite Special Forces unit. All three origins (Sole Survivor/War Hero/Ruthless) have Shepard seeing brutal combat prior to becoming a SPECTRE. After becoming a spectre Shepard engaged in further brutal combat to stop Saren, after that Shepard died, immediately after being brought back he enterred into another conflict & faced brutal combat.
The longest vacation Shepard has had in the time since the beginning of ME1 until the beginning of ME3 was during his/her incarceration with the Alliance... Not exactly an easy time to come to terms with everything that has happened.
So you could argue that Shepard was not mentally at his/her best when facing possible Indoc'ing & thus more vulnerable to it. However, Shepard was dedicated & focused on the task of defeating the Reapers & up until the beam of light never wavered from that task. Shepard's last act before the beam of light is desperately trying to reach the console & fire off the Crucible.
So no. I don't think Shepard was Indoctrinated when the choice between Destroy/Control/Synthesis was being made.
#453
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 07:50
Mcfly616
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Pretty sure Vigil says that Protheans weren't too great at detecting indoctrination. But to tell you the truth idk of its a dream or indoctrination. I just believe it is not reality and he is unconscious....and its not possible that if he were slowly indoctrinated over time, that it wasnt at a level of detectability until Harby blasts him?....another thing is, I know the codex "can" be a slow process....but in ME2 he's assuming direct control of collectors....you don't think its possible for him to get into Sheps head as he's literally standing over his unconscious body?
#454
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 07:51
Mcfly616
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Typo in last post. Meant to say: " I know the codex states indoctrination can be a slow process..."
#455
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 07:52
Lethys1
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GreatBandit wrote...
MisterNugNug wrote...
Why Indoctrinate Shepard? If he/she is lying on the ground, why not kill Shepard? One individual has amassed the galaxy's alien races together; united them to confront you. Killing him/her would destroy morale and resolve amongst the races.
Shepard would be a much stronger ally indoctrinated over being killed.
Yup, same reason they'd never wanted to kill Saren. Saren was the closest thing to Shepard before Shepard in terms of the way the galaxy viewed him.
#456
Posté 16 mars 2012 - 07:53
Lethys1
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And the Prothean VI could have been talking about Shepard, just because it didn't instantaneously detect indoctrination doesn't mean Shep wasn't the one they were talking about.
