455 réponses à ce sujet

[EvilMind]

Deztyn wrote...

I think Shepard is in a coma. I believe that she never woke up after Eden Prime, and all of Mass Effect 1, 2 and 3 after she 'woke' in the medbay is just an elaborate nightmare vision caused by her exposure to the Prothean beacon.

Now disprove my theory.

[MisterNugNug]

RagingCeltik wrote...
No.  Killing him/her would martyr Shepard to the cause, rallying the rest of them to fight to the end.    Indoctrinating Shepard, turning the galaxy's greatest champion against them, *that* would demoralize them.

The fight was going to the end either way.  And are we to believe that if Shepard becomes successfully indoctrinated that he/she could manage to persuade the forces of the galaxy to surrender?  Shepard just spent the entire game rallying the forces to fight, wouldn't it be suspect if all of a sudden Shepard changed course?  

matchboxmatt wrote...
Remember the derelict reaper? Indoctrination happens through exposure. It's a passive experience, not an active one.

 

So why isn't the rest of the crew undergoing Indoctrination as well?  Everytime you encounter a reaper, you're with your squadmates.

[Raiil]

Beast919 wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

CommanderWilliams wrote...


Okay, you've convinced me of something I already knew. It's possible it wasn't a dream and Bioware just screwed up. I wasn't asking for you to prove to me canocal evidence that undeniably proves you are right becuase clearly neither of us can do so. I am simply asking for evidence that challenges the Indoctrination theory, which you provided. 

You're asking all of us who don't believe in it to bring you proof to disprove yours. You want my theory? If it's not crap writing, it's PTSD. Shepard shows plenty of the classical signs.


Sleep deprivation, a common enough symptom in soldiers and talked about with Garrus when he tries to shoo you off to bed, can bring in the introduction of shadow people, a common side effect of both troubled dreams and just generally not being able to sleep.


PTSD causes you to relieve a traumatic moment. The boy doing can be considered one. 


Irritability and anger. Shepard displays this in spades during a session with Joker. 


Aggression? Come on, that's Shepard in this game. 


So, in theory: Shepard is suffering from extreme PTSD, causing nightmare episodes with dream distortions, reliving a traumatic event, exhibiting irritability and anger. It has a high rate of occurance in wartime soldiers.


Now. Prove me wrong. 

What exactly are you saying here - that when he gets laser-blasted he goes into a PTSD coma sequence? Or he's actually awake, doing things, but seeing them in a crazy way.  Or......he's still on the normandy having one hell of a nightmare?

Nothing of the sort. I think what happened is that BioWare tried to get metaphysical and deep on us, and gave us a half-baked ending. I don't think that there's anything underneath. I don't think we got anymore than we saw. I was trying to make a point where I can find alternate evidence, in this case about his weird dream sequences that so many people try to use and proof, and offer a plausible, alternate scenario.  I can't prove Indoc wrong, but you can't prove PTSD wrong, either. Neither of us has conclusive proof.

[Beast919]

Valentia X wrote...

Beast919 wrote...



And Valentia, this - "God Child beamed Shepard down. or Shepard was blasted through the Citadel and into the beam." - is so much worse than the ending we already have I don't even know where to begin with it. And again, EVEN IF that *absurd* series of events happens, why would we care? What would we do with a Shepard who had played god and destroyed all of galatic civilization. The destruction of the relay near Earth would have probably killed everyone, or at least set that part of the Galaxy into such turmoil that extinction is only a matter of time. How can we *truly* have Mass Effect without Relays? I see no reason to that, at all.

And I've said repeatedly that what we have here is, in my opinion, a bunch of ****ty writing. How is that going to steer me towards indoctrination? I accept that people at BioWare may, from time to time, write horribly. That doesn't compel me towards trying to figure out a way around it.

'It was bad' is no way equals 'that can't be it'. I could be right, I could be wrong, but sometimes, bad writing is bad writing.

I'll agree the possibility exists that its simply that bad.  But I'd be amazingly surprised that it would be.  Anyone, and I mean *ANYONE* who has worked on ME would play through that and be like "you know, that was great and all, a real mind trip, but I wanna see what happened to [insert any character other than Joker or your LI]."  My respect for the ME series is high enough that I'm more willing to believe the Indoc theorey than I am to believe they forgot the entire purpose of their series.  And if we're gonna go down the "well they ran out of time" road, I have to call bull****, cause it takes next to no time to photoshop some background with a character on it and have a paragraph of text saying "herp di derp Tali found special plants on crazy jungle world and lived the rest of her life in peace."

[CommanderWilliams]

Valentia X wrote...

CommanderWilliams wrote...


Okay, you've convinced me of something I already knew. It's possible it wasn't a dream and Bioware just screwed up. I wasn't asking for you to prove to me canocal evidence that undeniably proves you are right becuase clearly neither of us can do so. I am simply asking for evidence that challenges the Indoctrination theory, which you provided. 

You're asking all of us who don't believe in it to bring you proof to disprove yours. You want my theory? If it's not crap writing, it's PTSD. Shepard shows plenty of the classical signs.


Sleep deprivation, a common enough symptom in soldiers and talked about with Garrus when he tries to shoo you off to bed, can bring in the introduction of shadow people, a common side effect of both troubled dreams and just generally not being able to sleep.


PTSD causes you to relieve a traumatic moment. The boy doing can be considered one. 


Irritability and anger. Shepard displays this in spades during a session with Joker. 


Aggression? Come on, that's Shepard in this game. 


So, in theory: Shepard is suffering from extreme PTSD, causing nightmare episodes with dream distortions, reliving a traumatic event, exhibiting irritability and anger. It has a high rate of occurance in wartime soldiers.


Now. Prove me wrong. 

Okay, first question. At what point does everything become PTSD. How much of the game, and in particular, what, is a result of it. Are you saying the ending was a result of it? If so we still don't have a conclusion. Infact, we have less of one.

The Indoc theory had a pretty clear (though mildy debatable) start and end point for the dream. If what you say is true, and evidence can be interpreted that way for sure, how the hell does the game end? Elaporate some more on this becuase I want to see where your theory starts. Not to be a dick, trully interested.

[Beast919]

Valentia X wrote...


Nothing of the sort. I think what happened is that BioWare tried to get metaphysical and deep on us, and gave us a half-baked ending. I don't think that there's anything underneath. I don't think we got anymore than we saw. I was trying to make a point where I can find alternate evidence, in this case about his weird dream sequences that so many people try to use and proof, and offer a plausible, alternate scenario.  I can't prove Indoc wrong, but you can't prove PTSD wrong, either. Neither of us has conclusive proof.

The reason I was asking for clarification is this. 

If you're saying that *simply* the dream sequences are PTSD related, and the ending is in fact "truth" as it is presented,  I can accept the PTSD explanation for the dreams, but not for the horde of rediculously weird things that happen post-laser.  Whereas with Indoc, it explains not only the dream sequences, but *also* the horde of weird things post-laser.  Thus, it gets the most logical vote.

Also, while on this line of thought, going back to the purpose of storytelling - obviously the kid was meant to be a central theme.  At first I thought it was some kind of PTSD, that Shepard was wrestling with the guilt of not being able to save everyone.  But it goes *nowhere*, just like so many other plot devices in the game (Thanks to the current ending).  They were SCREAMING symbolism when you see yourself & the kid burn in your final dream - but why? Why oh why?  What does this symbolize?  What is the *point*?

Modifié par Beast919, 15 mars 2012 - 08:01 .

[Pobatti]

What's starting to annoy me about all this ending rationalisation is people's attitudes. You'll get someone coming up with an interesting theory that he or she would like to believe, and another person comes along and attacks that person because they don't see the ending the same way...

Why do so many folks get offended just because of how another member chooses to interpret the ending?

I think it's wonderful that folks are taking the time to come on here with their nicely thought out theories. People can read them, and decide for themselves whether they like them or not. If they want, they can choose to subscribe to that theory and if they don't then nobody's forcing them to. Some ideas are really convincing too, and this indoctrination theory has so much going for it that it's definately worthy of consideration. 

Sure there might be holes - and until the real truth is revealed there are always going to be things that don't quite add up - but I don't think we're ever going to get any more information than we have. This is something that's going to be debated until the end of time, and in reality probably doesn't even matter. If Mass Effect 4 comes along it will probably handwave the whole issue aside and ignore it, at the very most keeping it vague - and that's assuming the series isn't rebooted.

Nobody has any reason to come on here and try to take away another members own interpretation of the ending, it doesn't stop anyone else interpreting things however you want to - and the only ending that matters is the one that you as the player choose to accept.

If you believe that after the Normandy crashed, the crew interbred for generations then fine. It doesn't stop another person from believing it was all a story told by an old man to his grand daughter, or another person being convinced the whole ending was some sort of dream while Shepard was unconscious, or yet another person from coming to the conclusion that Shepard was indoctrinated.

The ending is vague for a reason - to get us discussing it and sharing ideas, not for publicly lynching other members because their ideas are not something you either don't like or find too many issues with. It's not as if all the members of this site and all the players of the game all have to reach some sort of united concensus on what the genuine ending should be.

[Gbentley]

Anyone else notice in the codex subject for indoctrination it mentions hallucinations of "ghostly" presences? 
If I remember correctly... Doesn't Sheppard see a "ghostly" presence?

[Stu_Shepard]

After reading this thread, in my opinion it shows there's more evidence to support the indoctrination theory rather than disprove it.

Harbinger has show a distinct interest in Shepard which is why he wants to indoctrinate, not kill him. Furthermore the Reapers show themselves to be extremely arrogant and proud so finally indoctrinating Shepard would be considered a real victory to them.

[CommanderWilliams]

MisterNugNug wrote...

RagingCeltik wrote...
No.  Killing him/her would martyr Shepard to the cause, rallying the rest of them to fight to the end.    Indoctrinating Shepard, turning the galaxy's greatest champion against them, *that* would demoralize them.

The fight was going to the end either way.  And are we to believe that if Shepard becomes successfully indoctrinated that he/she could manage to persuade the forces of the galaxy to surrender?  Shepard just spent the entire game rallying the forces to fight, wouldn't it be suspect if all of a sudden Shepard changed course?  

matchboxmatt wrote...
Remember the derelict reaper? Indoctrination happens through exposure. It's a passive experience, not an active one.

 

So why isn't the rest of the crew undergoing Indoctrination as well?  Everytime you encounter a reaper, you're with your squadmates.

Who says they are not? I remember a very specific example of something-I can't remember what (a likely story I know)-where the hero was being manipulated from the very start to further the villains goals secretly. Someone brought up earlier the idea that Harbinger WANTED Shepard to gather all the races together to wipe them out more quickly. Who knows.

[Raiil]

CommanderWilliams wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

CommanderWilliams wrote...


Okay, you've convinced me of something I already knew. It's possible it wasn't a dream and Bioware just screwed up. I wasn't asking for you to prove to me canocal evidence that undeniably proves you are right becuase clearly neither of us can do so. I am simply asking for evidence that challenges the Indoctrination theory, which you provided. 

You're asking all of us who don't believe in it to bring you proof to disprove yours. You want my theory? If it's not crap writing, it's PTSD. Shepard shows plenty of the classical signs.


Sleep deprivation, a common enough symptom in soldiers and talked about with Garrus when he tries to shoo you off to bed, can bring in the introduction of shadow people, a common side effect of both troubled dreams and just generally not being able to sleep.


PTSD causes you to relieve a traumatic moment. The boy doing can be considered one. 


Irritability and anger. Shepard displays this in spades during a session with Joker. 


Aggression? Come on, that's Shepard in this game. 


So, in theory: Shepard is suffering from extreme PTSD, causing nightmare episodes with dream distortions, reliving a traumatic event, exhibiting irritability and anger. It has a high rate of occurance in wartime soldiers.


Now. Prove me wrong. 

Okay, first question. At what point does everything become PTSD. How much of the game, and in particular, what, is a result of it. Are you saying the ending was a result of it? If so we still don't have a conclusion. Infact, we have less of one.

The Indoc theory had a pretty clear (though mildy debatable) start and end point for the dream. If what you say is true, and evidence can be interpreted that way for sure, how the hell does the game end? Elaporate some more on this becuase I want to see where your theory starts. Not to be a dick, trully interested.

PTSD would set in upon fleeing Earth, unless Shepard was having nightmares before hand, which we can't say one way or another.

The PTSD would explain, reasonably, the weird dream sequences, Shepard's irritability/rage, and potentially, the form of the child. 

As for how the game would end? Exactly as its presented. Very crappily. Sometimes, it sucks.

[Transgirlgamer]

EvilMind wrote...

Since when does the indoctrination allows person to make some sumbolic choice in his semi-dream, that will lead to complete indoc process or its failure? Where you got that data from?

Maybe it's something to do with how strong willed the person is, or it could be that making the subject accept indoctrination makes them last longer.  We know that Harbinger wanted Shepard alive for some reason from ME 2.  I remember it saying in my fights something like 'I will kill you if I have to.'  which suggests it doesn't want to.

[FabricatedWookie]

It probably wants shepard for the ascension process (assuming it is true)

[RegularX]

I'm upping the ante.

Disprove that the entire game wasn't one long indoctrination hallucination.

GO.

[FiGhTiNCoWBoY]

Assuming the indoctrination theory is true, there's 2 main instances in which people are suggesting indoctrination takes over:
1) When Shepard is blasted by Harbinger while making a dash for the beam
2) After he collapses at the terminal inside the citadel.

With both these instances in mind, lets fast forward a little bit to the pick your color scene. If indoctrination was indeed true, why would Harbinger present Shepard with a "destroy" option in the first place? You don't strive to take over someones mind and then while you're doing it say "Oh, and by the way just make a right turn here and you'll find the exit when you shoot this power conduit."

Modifié par FiGhTiNCoWBoY, 15 mars 2012 - 08:16 .

[Beast919]

MisterNugNug wrote...

The fight was going to the end either way.  And are we to believe that
if Shepard becomes successfully indoctrinated that he/she could manage
to persuade the forces of the galaxy to surrender?  Shepard just spent
the entire game rallying the forces to fight, wouldn't it be suspect if
all of a sudden Shepard changed course?

It wouldn't have to be nearly that obvious.  They were trusting Shepard to somehow work the Crucible.  No one knows what its supposed to do.  All Indoc-Shep would have to do is sabotage the bejesus out of it and oh look, no hope for the Galaxy.

[Deztyn]

RegularX wrote...

I'm upping the ante.

Disprove that the entire game wasn't one long indoctrination hallucination.

GO.

It can't be because Shepard has been in a coma since ME1.

Duh.

[FabricatedWookie]

CommanderWilliams wrote...

MisterNugNug wrote...

RagingCeltik wrote...
No.  Killing him/her would martyr Shepard to the cause, rallying the rest of them to fight to the end.    Indoctrinating Shepard, turning the galaxy's greatest champion against them, *that* would demoralize them.

The fight was going to the end either way.  And are we to believe that if Shepard becomes successfully indoctrinated that he/she could manage to persuade the forces of the galaxy to surrender?  Shepard just spent the entire game rallying the forces to fight, wouldn't it be suspect if all of a sudden Shepard changed course?  

matchboxmatt wrote...
Remember the derelict reaper? Indoctrination happens through exposure. It's a passive experience, not an active one.

 

So why isn't the rest of the crew undergoing Indoctrination as well?  Everytime you encounter a reaper, you're with your squadmates.

Who says they are not? I remember a very specific example of something-I can't remember what (a likely story I know)-where the hero was being manipulated from the very start to further the villains goals secretly. Someone brought up earlier the idea that Harbinger WANTED Shepard to gather all the races together to wipe them out more quickly. Who knows.

Yeah, that was me. Also pointed out the reapers use adrenaline to help with indoctrination, but that is for accelerated indoctrination which causes the person to rapidly lose their mental facilities and turn into a husk.

[MisterNugNug]

CommanderWilliams wrote...
Who says they are not? I remember a very specific example of something-I can't remember what (a likely story I know)-where the hero was being manipulated from the very start to further the villains goals secretly. Someone brought up earlier the idea that Harbinger WANTED Shepard to gather all the races together to wipe them out more quickly. Who knows.

So Shepard served his/her purpose, kill Shepard right there.  Why bother Indoctrinating?

[CommanderWilliams]

Valentia X wrote...

CommanderWilliams wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

CommanderWilliams wrote...


Okay, you've convinced me of something I already knew. It's possible it wasn't a dream and Bioware just screwed up. I wasn't asking for you to prove to me canocal evidence that undeniably proves you are right becuase clearly neither of us can do so. I am simply asking for evidence that challenges the Indoctrination theory, which you provided. 

You're asking all of us who don't believe in it to bring you proof to disprove yours. You want my theory? If it's not crap writing, it's PTSD. Shepard shows plenty of the classical signs.


Sleep deprivation, a common enough symptom in soldiers and talked about with Garrus when he tries to shoo you off to bed, can bring in the introduction of shadow people, a common side effect of both troubled dreams and just generally not being able to sleep.


PTSD causes you to relieve a traumatic moment. The boy doing can be considered one. 


Irritability and anger. Shepard displays this in spades during a session with Joker. 


Aggression? Come on, that's Shepard in this game. 


So, in theory: Shepard is suffering from extreme PTSD, causing nightmare episodes with dream distortions, reliving a traumatic event, exhibiting irritability and anger. It has a high rate of occurance in wartime soldiers.


Now. Prove me wrong. 

Okay, first question. At what point does everything become PTSD. How much of the game, and in particular, what, is a result of it. Are you saying the ending was a result of it? If so we still don't have a conclusion. Infact, we have less of one.

The Indoc theory had a pretty clear (though mildy debatable) start and end point for the dream. If what you say is true, and evidence can be interpreted that way for sure, how the hell does the game end? Elaporate some more on this becuase I want to see where your theory starts. Not to be a dick, trully interested.

PTSD would set in upon fleeing Earth, unless Shepard was having nightmares before hand, which we can't say one way or another.

The PTSD would explain, reasonably, the weird dream sequences, Shepard's irritability/rage, and potentially, the form of the child. 

As for how the game would end? Exactly as its presented. Very crappily. Sometimes, it sucks.

So essentially the entire game was just a dream. Alright, still worse than what we got, but I see your point. You are not trying to prove your theory is better, just that it works based on what we are given. I accept that. Anything is possible, and it does challenge the Indoc theory (obviously).

But to be honest. Shepard seems more chill in this game than the other two. I haven't finished my Renegade run yet, but based on what I've seen Shepard is alot less of a dick as a Renegade, though he/she can be more evil (Mordin).

Also, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks this. Shepards entire life has been pretty traumatic. Hell of a time to set in.

[Beast919]

RegularX wrote...

I'm upping the ante.

Disprove that the entire game wasn't one long indoctrination hallucination.

GO.

There's nothing to be gained by this, it would *truly* invalidate the entire experience.  I'd put money on you trolling, but meh, might as well try & explain that.

The main reason the Indoc Theory (i.e. post-laser nonsense) is so reasonable is it fits both story-telling criteria *and* the majority of business model criteria.  The one thing I will never, ever, understand about it (if it does end up being true) is why they delivered it sooooooooooo poorly.  But hey, any press is good press I guess....

[Bombe]

MisterNugNug wrote...

Why Indoctrinate Shepard? If he/she is lying on the ground, why not kill Shepard? One individual has amassed the galaxy's alien races together; united them to confront you. Killing him/her would destroy morale and resolve amongst the races.

Killing Shep may destroy morale, but imagine what Shep could acomplish if he/she was on their side?

[MisterNugNug]

Beast919 wrote...

It wouldn't have to be nearly that obvious.  They were trusting Shepard to somehow work the Crucible.  No one knows what its supposed to do.  All Indoc-Shep would have to do is sabotage the bejesus out of it and oh look, no hope for the Galaxy.

How could Shepard sabotage the Crucible?  Isn't all of this taking place in his mind, we're talking about the Indoctrination process correct?

[FabricatedWookie]

RegularX wrote...

I'm upping the ante.

Disprove that the entire game wasn't one long indoctrination hallucination.

GO.

They let me kill udina? Strengthened my will for a hundred years!

[Beast919]

FiGhTiNCoWBoY wrote...

Assuming the indoctrination theory is true, there's 2 main instances in which people are suggesting indoctrination takes over:
1) When Shepard is blasted by Harbinger while making a dash for the beam
2) After he collapses at the terminal inside the citadel.

With both these instances in mind, lets fast forward a little bit to the pick your color scene. If indoctrination was indeed true, why would Harbinger present Shepard with a "destroy" option in the first place? You don't strive to take over someones mind and then while you're doing it say "Oh, and by the way just make a right turn here and you'll find the exit when you shoot this power conduit."

Nothing is gained by giving someone 3 choices that all serve your interests if you're trying to brainwash them.  You still don't know how they'd react when given the opportunity to pick a choice that doesn't serve you.  The purpose of the destroy choice is to show it to Shepard, rub it in his face as a "Only a bad, bad renegade baddie would pick this evil option" and then show him the "good options" that, just by chance, both serve the Reapers.  If they convince him to turn his back on the anti-reaper option, he is essentially brainwashed.  They never "forced" his hand, he willingly did it.