455 réponses à ce sujet

[sorentoft]

CommanderWilliams wrote...

Just so I am clear. I am not asking anyone to disprove the theory. I am simply asking for evidence, that can found within the game and possibly be used to disprove the theory. Just as I am not proving the theory true, but using in game evidence that can possibly prove the theory.

Very well. My proof: The ending of Mass Effect 3. There is no mention of indoctrination, hell not even an attempt to call it out during the scenes. And if indoctrination was the case we still lack an ending to the game. Moreso since they actually end the game after Shepard wakes it means what you are presented are in fact the end, and not indoctrination. It would be seriously stupid of Bioware to ship the game without the actual ending.

Other than, I refer you to my two earlier comments that really says all there needs to be said.

[Beast919]

MisterNugNug wrote...

Beast919 wrote...
I apply the same question.  Why?  Just......why?  There is some purpose behind the ending, and as it stands..............I only see one *logical* explanation.  The people who wrote it could turn out to be mindless monkeys and truly be as stupid as it looks currently, but in terms of logic, I see only one reasonable choice.  And that's Indoc.

Then why does the game end right there?  Why that point?  

Absurd cliffhanger with an off-the-charts ballsy move that generates an unbelieveable amount of press about the game.  Potential money maker DLC that explains the ending "as it was meant to be."  Handful of reasons why they would pull a stunt like this.  I don't agree with them, I don't think they're particularly good ideas, but they're still things a business might do.

[RegularX]

CommanderWilliams wrote...

Just so I am clear. I am not asking anyone to disprove the theory. I am simply asking for evidence, that can found within the game and possibly be used to disprove the theory. Just as I am not proving the theory true, but using in game evidence that can possibly prove the theory.

@Naarad
What did I move around? Given the conditions for the secret ending we can infer it occurs after the blast, and that Shepard is alive. Where did I break the chronologically events?

No offense, but you aren't even making sense (so totally not clear).

Your thread title is: DISPROVE THE INDOCTRINATION THEORY

But you aren't asking anyone to disprove it?  Just asking for ... evidence to ... disprove it?

I gave four reasonable pieces of ingame facts which hold the theory has no water.  Have fun.

[sorentoft]

Beast919 wrote...

Gbentley wrote...

As much as there is some strange evidence for backing it, I think it's more likely that it's biowares poor writing for the end of the game that makes it inconstant and seem like there may be more. It's caseys game, he's the one who has to live with the fact he made a bad call for the end. Maybe they got something up planned that will blow everyone's mind, but doubtful.

Was just watching the clip where you see him take a breathe. It's totally him awakening. To what extent, or to what it could point to, who knows? But who else thought that it seemed like there was more to that clip? Watching it, it seems to just stop abruptly like there should be additional footage. Reminded me of "the truth" from assassins creed.

This is what I'm still waiting to see people try and explain.  Please, flesh out any reasonable, logical explanation for this clip other than Indoc.  I'm not being an ass, I want some variety.  What is the purpose of that clip.

A bad attempt to show Shepard survive without taking the explosion of the Citadel into account and the damage the atmosphere might do to him.

[Naarad]

CommanderWilliams wrote...

Just so I am clear. I am not asking anyone to disprove the theory. I am simply asking for evidence, that can found within the game and possibly be used to disprove the theory. Just as I am not proving the theory true, but using in game evidence that can possibly prove the theory.

@Naarad
What did I move around? Given the conditions for the secret ending we can infer it occurs after the blast, and that Shepard is alive. Where did I break the chronologically events?

If you infer it's a dream, you infer that what happens in-between Shepard being blasted by Harbinger and the 20-second scene clip doesn't happen. Which means you're actually removing what doesn't fit. 

[Beast919]

sorentoft wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

Gbentley wrote...

As much as there is some strange evidence for backing it, I think it's more likely that it's biowares poor writing for the end of the game that makes it inconstant and seem like there may be more. It's caseys game, he's the one who has to live with the fact he made a bad call for the end. Maybe they got something up planned that will blow everyone's mind, but doubtful.

Was just watching the clip where you see him take a breathe. It's totally him awakening. To what extent, or to what it could point to, who knows? But who else thought that it seemed like there was more to that clip? Watching it, it seems to just stop abruptly like there should be additional footage. Reminded me of "the truth" from assassins creed.

This is what I'm still waiting to see people try and explain.  Please, flesh out any reasonable, logical explanation for this clip other than Indoc.  I'm not being an ass, I want some variety.  What is the purpose of that clip.

A bad attempt to show Shepard survive without taking the explosion of the Citadel into account and the damage the atmosphere might do to him.

Again this is simply the "yeah they forgot how to write all of a sudden in the last 5 minutes' argument.  That's not a good argument.  And it still does not answer what comes next - this is teaser footage.  Teaser footage LEADS to something.  WHAT COMES NEXT?

[Aneunatsu]

Lyrandori wrote...

The only so called "evidence" I've read about that COULD be considered (I did, too) and is hinting that Shepard was NOT indoctrinated, and that somehow BioWare thought that the endings we do have "really happened" (not a nightmare, not indoctrination, really happened), is the Prothean A.I. on Thessia. That Prothean A.I. "detected indoctrination" when Kai Leng arrived, since indeed just as much as the Illusive Man happens to be indoctrinated. Since Shepard had been talking to the A.I. for some time before Kai arrived and since the A.I. never reacted to any indoctrinated presence, then it "should mean" that Shepard was in fact "normal" and not indoctrinated.

My problem with that "evidence" (more like a theory) is the following:

1) That A.I. is Prothean, which means it was built by Protheans 50,000 years earlier during their own cycle. Whatever method(s) is used to detect indoctrination must be method(s) / technology of detection that happens to be detecting specific "types of" indoctrination that the builders of that A.I. happened to be aware of during their own cycle. That means - possibly - that Kai Leng's indoctrination is a mere coincidence that it had been detected by the A.I., due to the type of indoctrination "used" for Kai Leng which was "detectable" to start with.

2) Shepard, contrarily to Kai Leng, from what we know (maybe it's not the case) has (most likely) a crap load of synthetic implants in his/her body, which might alter the "detection method" or capabilities of the Prothean A.I. But MORE IMPORTANTLY, Shepard is able to "think like" a Prothean (as mentioned in M1 by Liara, thanks to touching the Beacon on Eden Prime and not only that, being able, over time, with help from Liara's mind melding sessions, to figure out what it means, partially). And in ME3's Eden Prime mission (Prothean DLC) Shepard is the ONLY ONE able to actually see and understand all the "footage" of events that happened to a specific group of Protheans as they were being killed by Reapers and escaping to stasis pods, which indeed demonstrates that Shepard is able to think like and understand Protheans and might just happen to be developing a Prothean psychology. And BECAUSE of that, it might be possible that the Prothean A.I.'s detection methods on Thessia was not able to detect Shepard's potential indoctrination since the A.I. might have considered Shepard as a Prothean (without necessarily mentioning just that out loud and word-by-word).

Either way, the indoctrination theory has more in its favor than not. Anything that "can disprove" the theory, while possibly existing (at least in-game) is still quite difficult to find.

Did you seriously take an in game occurance that pretty much disproves indoctrination, break it apart with maybes, and then state that indoctrination is still the more likely choice?

Either way, if you think people are pissed with the endings now, what do you think will happen if everyone found out the last two games were just a dream sequence? You'd have the largest nerd riot in history.

[Beast919]

Naarad wrote...

CommanderWilliams wrote...

Just so I am clear. I am not asking anyone to disprove the theory. I am simply asking for evidence, that can found within the game and possibly be used to disprove the theory. Just as I am not proving the theory true, but using in game evidence that can possibly prove the theory.

@Naarad
What did I move around? Given the conditions for the secret ending we can infer it occurs after the blast, and that Shepard is alive. Where did I break the chronologically events?

If you infer it's a dream, you infer that what happens in-between Shepard being blasted by Harbinger and the 20-second scene clip doesn't happen. Which means you're actually removing what doesn't fit. 

He's not removing what doesn't fit - he's clarifying what it is we're seeing.  We've already established we, the player, can witness a dream sequence of Shepard's.  What he is proposing is that this is simply another dream-like sequence (can coma-thoughts be called dreams?) - and that the story is simply not over.  Nothing is getting removed, nothing is getting changed - we are simply understanding what took place differently.

[Gbentley]

Is it possible that the end is so bad and incomplete that it had driven everyone insane?

For indoc, after just playing the end again.. Maybe TIM isn't controlling anyone. Maybe the reapers are controlling all three of them. Playing Shepard like a puppet. When shep shoots Anderson, TIM says look at what "they" have the power to do. Doesn't refer to himself.

Thoughts?

[fides5566]

Esquin wrote...

If the indoctrination theory is correct then that means bioware sold us an unfinished game.

This isn't intended as proof of it being wrong. Just proof that ethically it was the wrong choice for a company to make.

Yeah, but at least, we may have a better ending that this ****.

Modifié par fides5566, 15 mars 2012 - 09:30 .

[sorentoft]

Beast919 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

Gbentley wrote...

As much as there is some strange evidence for backing it, I think it's more likely that it's biowares poor writing for the end of the game that makes it inconstant and seem like there may be more. It's caseys game, he's the one who has to live with the fact he made a bad call for the end. Maybe they got something up planned that will blow everyone's mind, but doubtful.

Was just watching the clip where you see him take a breathe. It's totally him awakening. To what extent, or to what it could point to, who knows? But who else thought that it seemed like there was more to that clip? Watching it, it seems to just stop abruptly like there should be additional footage. Reminded me of "the truth" from assassins creed.

This is what I'm still waiting to see people try and explain.  Please, flesh out any reasonable, logical explanation for this clip other than Indoc.  I'm not being an ass, I want some variety.  What is the purpose of that clip.

A bad attempt to show Shepard survive without taking the explosion of the Citadel into account and the damage the atmosphere might do to him.

Again this is simply the "yeah they forgot how to write all of a sudden in the last 5 minutes' argument.  That's not a good argument.  And it still does not answer what comes next - this is teaser footage.  Teaser footage LEADS to something.  WHAT COMES NEXT?

Actually it is the best argument because that is what it is, until you can prove me wrong of course.

[Naarad]

Beast919 wrote...
Use your imagination and flesh out what you're saying.  How did Shepard survive the blast.  How did Earth survive the catastrophe that would be the Citadel rubble falling into it.  How did Shepard survive re-entry.  What is the purpose of Shepard surviving?  Where does the Mass Effect series go now that all relays are gone and Earth is about to be torn apart by a collision with the Citadel?

Don't just say he's still alive - explain *how* and *why*.  Thats the purpose of our Indoc argument, and the purpose of this thread is to find a fleshed out, reasonable counter argument that presents another fully functional idea.  Cause we can all agree what we currently have is not fully functional.

You're not the writer, nor am I. I can't present a functional idea that isn't based on assumptions (same way you can't) which means we have to settle with the fact that 20 seconds clip is what it is: A cliffhanger.

[MisterNugNug]

Beast919 wrote...
Absurd cliffhanger with an off-the-charts ballsy move that generates an unbelieveable amount of press about the game.  Potential money maker DLC that explains the ending "as it was meant to be."  Handful of reasons why they would pull a stunt like this.  I don't agree with them, I don't think they're particularly good ideas, but they're still things a business might do.

Its also generating an unbelievable amount of bad press, controversy and outright disgust towards the franchise as well.  I disagree with it being an off the charts ballsy move.  Its an off the charts absurdly stupid move to be doing at the end of a trilogy.  Though I'm glad we both agree that its a particularly poor idea with poor execution.     

[PrettyD3f]

If the the whole idea was indoctrination why take us back to the Normandy, pre-ending, to get DLC that was "planned" to finish the game?

Modifié par PrettyD3f, 15 mars 2012 - 09:32 .

[Beast919]

sorentoft wrote...

Actually it is the best argument because that is what it is, until you can prove me wrong of course.

This stubborn nonsense helps no one.  I've already established that nothing can be *proven* under the current amount of information.  I am simply seeking out another explanation for *why*, cause so far, logic only points to one answer.  If, in the end, we are looking at the finished product, then there simply is no answer.  However, I doubt that, so I'm curious to see if anyone else can come up with another *why*.  And not simply assume Bioware is capable of submarining their entire IP in 10 minutes.

[CommanderWilliams]

Naarad wrote...

CommanderWilliams wrote...

Just so I am clear. I am not asking anyone to disprove the theory. I am simply asking for evidence, that can found within the game and possibly be used to disprove the theory. Just as I am not proving the theory true, but using in game evidence that can possibly prove the theory.

@Naarad
What did I move around? Given the conditions for the secret ending we can infer it occurs after the blast, and that Shepard is alive. Where did I break the chronologically events?

If you infer it's a dream, you infer that what happens in-between Shepard being blasted by Harbinger and the 20-second scene clip doesn't happen. Which means you're actually removing what doesn't fit. 

No. I'm not removing anything. I'm filling in the blanks. Everything happened-just in Shepards head-which explains the scene of him waking up after he makes his choice. I am removing nothing. I am using evidence that fits to make sense of the ending. And for the most part, it works.

Sorry RegularX I pretty much complely missed your longer post. But as for your initial theory, no I can't prove that. And with good reason. If that was true, December 21st would come early.

[likta_]

Can anyone supporting the indoctrination "ending" answer me one question? Where does it state that indoctrination equals massive hallucinations? Nowhere in the games or the books i read (up to and including Vol 3) is it meantioned that you have hallucinations if you are indoctrinated. The only thing indoctrinated persons do is make connections in their mind that the cause of the reapers is good, or at least that what the people do is their own free will.

[Transgirlgamer]

I've stated my theory in the thread 'I've got a theory' which I linked earlier. To my mind, and admittedly I haven't played through ME3 fully yet, I only got it Monday, it fits better than indoctrination although it was based on the indoctrination theory. I do however admit that it's only a theory and I will change it if/when something conflicts.

The reason I believe that the current 'endings' aren't the real ones is because bioware aren't stupid enough to cut off their additional income from DLC by basically destroying the mass effect universe.

And to anyone asking why they released an incomplete game.  Assuming they did decide to change the ending after the script leak, 3 months is not enough time to write and produce the multiple endings that they promised so they came up with something for everyone that gave them a point to start a new ending from and gave us an ending of sorts by the release date.  I've heard that the ending we have is very close to the leaked script, I say 'well dub.' to that.  They already had that ending produced it would be much easier to redo a few bits there so they could then work on something new than write something else to let them write further.

Modifié par Transgirlgamer, 15 mars 2012 - 09:40 .

[Beast919]

Naarad wrote...

Beast919 wrote...
Use your imagination and flesh out what you're saying.  How did Shepard survive the blast.  How did Earth survive the catastrophe that would be the Citadel rubble falling into it.  How did Shepard survive re-entry.  What is the purpose of Shepard surviving?  Where does the Mass Effect series go now that all relays are gone and Earth is about to be torn apart by a collision with the Citadel?

Don't just say he's still alive - explain *how* and *why*.  Thats the purpose of our Indoc argument, and the purpose of this thread is to find a fleshed out, reasonable counter argument that presents another fully functional idea.  Cause we can all agree what we currently have is not fully functional.

You're not the writer, nor am I. I can't present a functional idea that isn't based on assumptions (same way you can't) which means we have to settle with the fact that 20 seconds clip is what it is: A cliffhanger.

Exercise your brain.  You can present functional ideas that *might* be the truth.  If you shut off a movie 5 minutes before the end, your brain can do a pretty damn good job of thinking "well, I bet this will happen."  Same **** here.  Come up with *something* to explain what happens next.  Don't base your idea off "assumptions", base them off what you've seen and heard in the game.  You have evidence to support your idea, use it.  The idea itself is an assumption - what you've seen and heard, are not.

[Beast919]

likta_ wrote...

Can anyone supporting the indoctrination "ending" answer me one question? Where does it state that indoctrination equals massive hallucinations? Nowhere in the games or the books i read (up to and including Vol 3) is it meantioned that you have hallucinations if you are indoctrinated. The only thing indoctrinated persons do is make connections in their mind that the cause of the reapers is good, or at least that what the people do is their own free will.

I'd have to spend some time finding it, but there have been posts about codex entries listing hallucinations.  That & the implications in ME2 that the crew working the derelict reaper start to have similar memories, implying some method of imposing images/ideas into their brain.

[sorentoft]

Beast919 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Actually it is the best argument because that is what it is, until you can prove me wrong of course.

This stubborn nonsense helps no one.  I've already established that nothing can be *proven* under the current amount of information.  I am simply seeking out another explanation for *why*, cause so far, logic only points to one answer.  If, in the end, we are looking at the finished product, then there simply is no answer.  However, I doubt that, so I'm curious to see if anyone else can come up with another *why*.  And not simply assume Bioware is capable of submarining their entire IP in 10 minutes.

Logic points to one answer: Bad writing and bad execution. Seeking desperately after an alternative explanation for Bioware screwing up is not logic, it is denial.

Modifié par sorentoft, 15 mars 2012 - 09:38 .

[Beast919]

MisterNugNug wrote...

Beast919 wrote...
Absurd cliffhanger with an off-the-charts ballsy move that generates an unbelieveable amount of press about the game.  Potential money maker DLC that explains the ending "as it was meant to be."  Handful of reasons why they would pull a stunt like this.  I don't agree with them, I don't think they're particularly good ideas, but they're still things a business might do.

Its also generating an unbelievable amount of bad press, controversy and outright disgust towards the franchise as well.  I disagree with it being an off the charts ballsy move.  Its an off the charts absurdly stupid move to be doing at the end of a trilogy.  Though I'm glad we both agree that its a particularly poor idea with poor execution.     

Ballsy/stupid, same thing if it fails.  IMO whatever they were attempting, failed.  They got press, no doubts there, but I don't think they expected the astounding level of hate they got as well.

[Beast919]

sorentoft wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Actually it is the best argument because that is what it is, until you can prove me wrong of course.

This stubborn nonsense helps no one.  I've already established that nothing can be *proven* under the current amount of information.  I am simply seeking out another explanation for *why*, cause so far, logic only points to one answer.  If, in the end, we are looking at the finished product, then there simply is no answer.  However, I doubt that, so I'm curious to see if anyone else can come up with another *why*.  And not simply assume Bioware is capable of submarining their entire IP in 10 minutes.

Logic points to one answer: Bad writing and bad execution. Seeking desperately after an alternative explination for Bioware screwing up is not logic, it is denial.

So you think its logical for a company that's created a 99% amazing product to completely fall flat on its face in the last 5 minutes, include a nonsense teaser footage after a specific ending, and still try to sell DLC afterwards.  I'm not seeing that.  And again, I'm not in denial.  I'm well aware that unless its changed, the current ending is awwwwwwwwwwwwful.  But even if its only for the sake of 'headcanon', I'd like to entertain the notion that there was a purpose behind it, or there's some hope going forward for the IP (even assuming the endings are 'truth').

[Gbentley]

likta_ wrote...

Can anyone supporting the indoctrination "ending" answer me one question? Where does it state that indoctrination equals massive hallucinations? Nowhere in the games or the books i read (up to and including Vol 3) is it meantioned that you have hallucinations if you are indoctrinated. The only thing indoctrinated persons do is make connections in their mind that the cause of the reapers is good, or at least that what the people do is their own free will.

In the game codex it mentions a few things. Nothing on a huge grand scale though.

[redknight38]

I would like to start by saying I have nothing against this whole theory per se...

"Within the game" evidence? Kind of artificially limiting yourself there and truthfully, sounds very selective.

Simplest evidence why the theory is not true? Just imagine it: Bioware comes up with a plan to sell you an unfinished game, despite the fact that they repeatedly claimed this would wrap everything up. So you have to download something to finish it. Right off the bat, if they're going to sell this DLC that's incredibly vile and sets such a horrible precedent that I fervently pray it isn't true. Then imagine the backlash. They'd be absolutely pilloried. It might work once, but I can bet it would destroy the Bioware brand.

What if they were giving the ending for free? What about the people without the ability to download it? Then there is the problem that they never hinted this in their marketing campaign at all. This is an incredibly risky move, one that could cause all kinds of PR nightmares if it failed which, by any objective standard, it already has. They'd have primed everybody for this, you can guarantee it. Ads would have all been emphasizing a "twist" or a "surprise." Instead all the statements and ads claimed that it would wrap things up. What about their current statements now? Most of it has been incredibly vague, with some seemingly suggesting it like "hold onto your copies forever" and others have the same game writers and developers expressing satisfaction with the ending as it is.

I suppose you could argue that Bioware is trying to be creative or brilliant or risk-taking. I am skeptical. This is the same company that is so averse to risk or creative innovation that it has used the SAME template for characters since Baldur's Gate 2. It was so risk averse that even in ME3, the company chickened out on modeling Tali's face. In fairness to the company's willingness to take risks I would mention its openness to same sex relationships and its early catering to female gamers. However we should make no mistake, this unheralded, twist ending that was not marketed earlier on ("Casey Hudson Will Make You His B*tch) is a HUGE PR risk.

People are talking about the game though and I suppose you can argue that all PR is good PR? Come on. Is this good PR? People are talking about Rush Limbaugh a lot but I can hardly call it "good PR" and Bioware is in a similar situation--not all PR is good. Fans are pissed off and reviews on Metacritic are dropping. There's even some speculation of price dropping (of which I am skeptical). If this was part of a campaign, they would have tried to address that much, much more decisively.

This has been a PR nightmare for Bioware. I don't think their silence is because of some Sith-like scheme. Simplest explanation, they're panicking and hoping that this will die down or the whole movement will break apart. The increased division of opinion on these boards and the more vocal pushback from people who don't object to the endings, along with the admission of many players that they're on their second or third playthrough suggests it might work.

I like the idea of the Indoctrination Theory, however, because it gives Bioware an out. And I sincerely hope they take it. It's not an implausible theory at all and is even clever. Hell, they can lie through their teeth and claim it was the plan all along. But this new ending DLC better be free.