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[Nefelius]

 Making this thread to link it for the people who can't understand our "outrage".

The current endings:

1. Use faulty logic.

  a) Synthetic vs organic conflict and it's solution. Creation of synthetics (Reapers) and enslaving  synthetics created by organics (Geth) for the reason of destroying organics in order to save organics from being destroyed by their own synthetics (Geth + current AIs).

  Presence of "Synthesis" option. Existance of the "Syntesis" option and Catalyst's obvious ability to make the option work raises the question of accepting the  "Reaper" option as the most proper one. (Why didn't he (or race that created him) just merged organics and synthetics\\built their own Crucible to merge them in the first place?)

  c) "Synthesis" option.  Somehow "The peak of evolution" which is the "Synthesis" as it is presented prevents the new "cyborg" beings  from creating another AI's to "ease their lives" which might result in synthetics vs "cyborgs" conflict.
   

 d) Catalyst being the ultimate master of the Reapers. A mastermind AI (or whatever) living in the Citadel, which is an enormous Mass Relay connected to the Reaper's hideout cannot activate the Citadel himself and needs Sovereign as an "agent in cover" to do it.
 
 e) Reapers in ME1 and ME3. As presented in ME1 the reapers' main tactic (which was repeated for millenias)  - is first to invade the seat of the galaxy's power (Citadel) then cut off any means of intergalactic communications and transportation (Mass Relays). But in ME3 the Citadel remains free as if the Reapers "forgot" how to set the plan they had repeated for millions of yearsin motion. And then when they finally obtain the Citadel, they still do not bother themselves shutting the Relays down as they did many times before and just "let" Shepard gather forces and build the Crucible.

2. Have major plotholes.

 a) Destruction of the relay network. As seen in the Arrival DLC the result of a destroyed Relay - is destruction of entire Solar System aroun it. Does the same happens to all other systems when the Relay network is destroyed?

  Normandy's fate. Why was the Normandy transiting via Mass Realy and where to?

 c) Fate of the squadmates. Why last two squadmates "teleported" into escaping Normandy unharmed after being hit by Reaper's laser?

 d) Mastermind's AI faulty logic. Players  spent lots of time bringing geth\\quarian conflict to peace and making EDI think more like organic. But players are unable to present those facts to the AI (or whatever he is) to oppose his "undeniable" logic.

  e) Shepard's acceptance. Through all ME series Shepard is presented as the embodiment of free will and denial of pre-determenism. And then all of a sudden he accepts AI's (or whatever) faulty logic and the "choices" he presents. 

  f) Miranda.  Miranda was an agent for Cerberus and obviously knows the Base's location yet still needs a tracking device to find it.


3. Does not give closure and possibly invalidates all the player's choices.

  a) Due to section '2" all the player's choices are invalidated. Bringing peace to geth\\quarian conflict, "upgrading" EDI, curing the Genophage, establishing peace between krogans and turians, saving the Rachni queen, saving the whole galaxy may mean nothing if: The galaxy is wiped out by explosion of the Network, or if all the fleets gathered are just stranded on Earth and doomed to die of starvation (keeping in mind that homeworlds are in ruins if not wiped out by explosion). And we don't know either did any of the player's decisions actually work out.
  
  Lack of closure. We have no idea what happened after the Reapers are gone to the galaxy and to characters representing it, (besides the "synthesis" one where we only know that everyone is a cyborg now)


  c) The endings are practically the same. The diference between the endings is insignificant and  represents itself in the 3 different colors of explosion, Reapers dead\\away, Earth incinerated\\not incinerated, normandy's crew glowing with cybotg parts or not.

If i forgot to mention something or didn't know it yet, please feel free to add your findings.
Please restrain yourself from arguing in this thread - this is mere a summary. 

Modifié par Nefelius, 15 mars 2012 - 11:09 .

[Astarmos]

Well put! Now we can discuss!
  a) Synthetic vs organic conflict and it's solution.
Creation of synthetics (Reapers) and enslaving  synthetics created by
organics (Geth) for the reason of destroying organics in order to save
organics from being destroyed by their own synthetics (Geth + current
AIs).

Catalyst clearly states that reapers harvest advance civilizations living the young one to develop. We can assume that it's point is - synthetics will kill every life there is with no exception. I said it many times - Geths aren't nearly perfect AI. I will say one more time: Legion stated that it doesn't have to be a major change in AI logic in order to produce geths like heretics. So it proves, that AI in wrong hands can go completely wrong

  Presence of "Synthesis" option.
Existance of the "Syntesis" option and Catalyst's obvious ability to
make the option work raises the question of accepting the  "Reaper"
option as the most proper one. (Why didn't he (or race that created him)
just merged organics and synthetics\\built their own Crucible to merge
them in the first place?)


  c) "Synthesis" option.
 Somehow "The peak of evolution" which is the "Synthesis" as it is
presented prevents the new "cyborg" beings  from creating another AI's
to "ease their lives" which might result in synthetics vs "cyborgs"
conflict.
   

 d) Catalyst being the ultimate master of the Reapers.
A mastermind AI (or whatever) living in the Citadel, which is an
enormous Mass Relay connected to the Reaper's hideout cannot activate
the Citadel himself and needs Sovereign as an "agent in cover" to do it.

I think that most of the logical problems come from the assumption that Catalyst is like a puppet master. No it isn't. It sometime uses "me" and sometimes "we". It is a major hint. Catalyst is like an idea, motive of the reapers. It is constant, you can't change it normally or discuss with it, because its belief is treated as absolute truth. It says "crucible changed me" when it refers to the idea itself. Crucible proofs or maybe forces its solution to the Catalyst. Catalyst says that he controls the reapers. It's true. because it tells the reapers what do they have to do - what is right to do.
 
 e) Reapers in ME1 and ME3.
As presented in ME1 the reapers' main tactic (which was repeated for
millenias)  - is first to invade the seat of the galaxy's power
(Citadel) then cut off any means of intergalactic communications and
transportation (Mass Relays). But in ME3 the Citadel remains free as if
the Reapers "forgot" how to set the plan they had repeated for millions
of yearsin motion. And then when they finally obtain the Citadel, they
still do not bother themselves shutting the Relays down as they did many
times before and just "let" Shepard gather forces and build the
Crucible.
-------------------------------
Perhaps reapers thought that allowing fleets to come all at once is a good opportunity to destroy them all at once? They don't seem to fear your fleets. Their goal is to ultimately destroy advance civilizations. This senstence is not ultimately true. We now know that they create reapers from civilizations citizens so it can be stored forever. 

Modifié par Astarmos, 15 mars 2012 - 11:23 .

[J4N3_M3]

2f) It's been explained in the novels (i can look up the precise quote if necessary) that the Cerberus base is always being moved so Miranda wouldn't know where the base was since she quit over 6 months ago.

Modifié par J4N3_M3, 15 mars 2012 - 11:46 .

[Nefelius]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

2f) It's been explained in the novels (i can look up the precise quote if necessary) that the Cerberus base is always being moved so Miranda wouldn't know where the base was since she quit over 6 months ago.

yet it's still rides around the same dying star we saw in ME2.

[Astarmos]

2 f)
Cerberus base doesn't have to move in order to justify Miranda's decision on planting tracking device. She was being cautious because of the ability of cerberus ability to move. This is a necessary precaution.

[J4N3_M3]

Nefelius wrote...

J4N3_M3 wrote...

2f) It's been explained in the novels (i can look up the precise quote if necessary) that the Cerberus base is always being moved so Miranda wouldn't know where the base was since she quit over 6 months ago.

yet it's still rides around the same dying star we saw in ME2.

TIM is not only on that station. See Retribution novel where he was on the station that got attacked by Anderson and the turians. So if Leng is going to speak to TIM personally, it's the easiest way to track him than to check all possible locations. 

[fosewham]

 e) Reapers in ME1 and ME3. As presented in ME1 the reapers' main tactic (which was repeated for millenias)  - is first to invade the seat of the galaxy's power (Citadel) then cut off any means of intergalactic communications and transportation (Mass Relays).

They do so, but not as fast as you may think and not simultaneously. Reapers still need to move across the galaxy, so the process may be lasting for hundreds of years. If they turn off all relays at once, they simple wont be able to get to the civilizations which they are supposed to harvest. Still there are some news on alliance network about lost communications with the colonies.

[Ace Attorney]

You forgot "the cool kids are hating on the endings" reason.

I'm half serious, some people are just bandwagoning.

[DeadLetterBox]

T3hAnubis wrote...

You forgot "the cool kids are hating on the endings" reason.

I'm half serious, some people are just bandwagoning.

No.  I avoided the forums until after I beat the game to avoid spoliers, and I decided I hated the ending before my final choice was even made.  This isn't just a bandwagon issue.

[shepskisaac]

Reapers are not AIs people. They have organic minds: www.youtube.com/watch

[Xandurpein]

Very good summary from the OP and I subscribe to most of them my self. I would just like to add one more inconsistency that upsets me. In the "best" ending Catalyst claims that Synthesis is the pinnacle of evolution, but everything else Catalyst says contradicts that statement. Evolution is just natural selection; what will happen naturally in the absence of divine intervention or intelligent design. If Synthesis truly was the pinnacle of evolution, then the Catalyst interventions are pointless and counterproductive, because Synthesis will eventually be achieved through natural selection, otherwise it's not evolution.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 15 mars 2012 - 01:15 .

[Nefelius]

IsaacShep wrote...

Reapers are not AIs people. They have organic minds: www.youtube.com/watch

That does not justify the use of the Geth  for killing organics to prevent organics from being killed by the Geth.

[shepskisaac]

Nefelius wrote...

That does not justify the use of the Geth  for killing organics to prevent organics from being killed by the Geth.

Geth are AIs that are still inferor to Reapers with organic minds. It is obvious Reapers would've get rid of them as soon as they didn't need them anymore. They used their 'enemy' as a tool, don't see how exactly it's wrong. It's not like Geth would've exceeded Reapers anytime soon

[hawat333]

Glad to have a discussion instead of roaming here, keep it up.

1a is logical.
Organics and evolve and create synthetics that ends in a conlfict which would wipe out _all organic life_. So the Reapers harvest the _advanced organics_ in every Cycle, preserving them in a new form and preserving organic life with a lower technological level. Just like they did with us in the previous Cycle. That makes sense, the Catalyst is worried about the continuity of organic life, not just advanced life.
No, I don't say its logic is perfect, but from its viewpoint it makes sense.

1b) The Crucible is not of Reaper origin, that's a new thing, even for the Catalyst. It stated that it only saw one solution before, and that was the army of the Reapers. The Crucible _and_ an organic making his/her way up there changed the setting, opening up new options even to the Catalyst. That's why it/they didn't do it before in my opinion. Also, the Catalyst, as Astarmos mentioned, is not necessarily a living being in the classical sense. It's an entity, and I very much like the way he said it: an idea, a motive of the Reapers. Not the puppeteer, but the motive of using the puppets. It is an entity in my opinion, but like the queen of one giant mechancial anthill, it's not a being clicking buttons and shouting orders.

1c) I think they wouldn't be cybernetical organisms, but something more; that's why it calles it a new evolution step. Or it was just written in for the sake of Deus Ex 1 fans.

1d) My heart is what makes my body tick. Yet, I don't control its actions.

1e) I agree with you there completely.
They used a tactic for the last catalyst-knows-how-many Cycles, as far as we know, there's no real sense to completely change that now. Or maybe they decided to stick with system-by-system occupation because the Citadel as a Relay was disabled by the Protheans (and by Shepard), so the element of surprise was gone? Because that were their two main weapons.
Fear and the element of surprise. And ruthless efficiency. Oh! That were their three main weapons, fear and the element of surprise and ruthless efficiency and almost perfect devotion to the catal.... dammit!

2a) That could be explained... I mean, Arrival was the one with the plothole in the first place, considering the Mu Relay wasn't hurt by a start turning supernova, I hardly think a simple asteroid would destroy the Relay. But even if it does, it was a collision that released all the energy. Maybe, just maybe, the signal sent out by the Catalyst only destroyed the framework, rendering the Relay unsuable, but not releasing all that energy. Yeah, it feels clumsy, and yeah, it's more likely a plothole.

2b) Yeah, couldn't find an explanation. Why was it en route in the first place? I'd be glad if someone could give a reasonable explanation. If it gets explained, how the hell did my squad get up there? Considering the pacing, there was no real option for them to get there without a special Earth-to-Normandy Conduit.

2c) Just as above.

2d) That doesn't prove anything. After three hundred years of war, we have... what one month of peace in a major crisis where we face an outisde threat? Let's see it in one hundred years from now on. I favor peace between the geth and the quarian, but I'm not sure at all that it won't end in war again. It takes only a handful of crazies like Xen who want to enslave the geth again, considering the geth's lack of resilience, there you go: Second Morning War. I'm not saying it will happen. But eventually, it's very much possible. That's the possiblity the Catalyst wants to eliminate. No, I don't agree with it. But I see its reasoning.

2e) Yeah, it could use more choices. Absolutely. I'd really like an option to agree with the Catalyst (even with me, the player, not agreeing with it), or maybe one to say "Damn you, I'm riding back on the elevator", etc.

2f) That base is a mobile space station, even with Miranda being here in the beginning of the second game, it's not there anymore. Yeah, it's rather funny, considering the vista is always the same. It was said somewhere that the base is always changing its location. Yet, the view is the same. Well... that... erm. Ok, that's something I don't get neither.

3a) I honestly disagree. Based on what? I consider ME1's lore to be true, and accept Arrival with a suspension of disbelief. But if I consider the Mu Relay's story to be true then we don't know what would happen if a Relay got destroyed.

3b) I think there wasn't a closure, not in video or text form, becasue no matter what they say, there would be rampage and crying anyway. Example. "The krogan lived peacfully ever after". Reaction: "Nooo, the krogan are violent in their nature, a single leader won't change that, there will always be a krogan rebellion!" Example B: "The krogan lived peacfully under the leadership of Wrex, but their nature ignited them to rebel against the Citadel species once more" Reaction: "Nooo, Wrex brought peace, the genophage is over, they wouldn't do that!" I think that's what they wanted to avoid. With our information about the galaxy, and a really minimal creative imagination, we can decide for ourselves what happened to it. That's no a problem with an ending, but a conceptual decision. Liking it or not - that's up to personal preference.

3d) Oh, no, they are not. Do you really say that? Do look at the endings from a higher magnitude, not just on a personal level. They are totally different. Completely. They rewrite the setting of the galaxy.
Yes, the videos aren't that different. But the endings? They are. Yes, they are.

[RunAway ItzJack]

Not to mention that mass relays instantaneously transport mass and energy. It's in the Codex and I know for sure it's mentioned in the books.

[SilencedScream]

This has been done, actually.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9851623/1

[Nefelius]

IsaacShep wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

That does not justify the use of the Geth  for killing organics to prevent organics from being killed by the Geth.

Geth are AIs that are still inferor to Reapers with organic minds. It is obvious Reapers would've get rid of them as soon as they didn't need them anymore. They used their 'enemy' as a tool, don't see how exactly it's wrong. It's not like Geth would've exceeded Reapers anytime soon

Did you not get it?

Reapers dont want the synthetics to kill all organics. So they enslave synthetics (geth) to kill organics. Yay.

[Harbinger of Hope]

T3hAnubis wrote...

You forgot "the cool kids are hating on the endings" reason.

I'm half serious, some people are just bandwagoning.

Actually, it seems to be the other way around. The majority of every player who hates the ending can easily produce a large list of plot-holes as to why the endings sucked. But whenever someone who liked the endings is asked as to why they only say "Because it was beautiful, moving, and artful." Then, when they are asked about the massive plot-holes they just dismiss them and say things like "You don't get it."

[qdust]

I'm sure that its been said before, but ....

We have a race of giant super advanced robots whose stated purpose is to save or preserve organic life, by wiping them out. On its face that sounds pretty stupid but there is a line about how organics are preserved in reaper for....so I guess turning humanity into a space squid is slightly better than having them all be killed by AI's later on.

But if the reaper's goal really is to preserve organic life couldn't they just hang out in dark space until organic life is threatened. Then swoop in kill the AI's and then tell the organics. "Everybody gets one." Don't go creating more AI's or we wont come back and save you again you naughty little meatbags."

[Nefelius]

[quote]hawat333 wrote...

1b) The Crucible is not of Reaper origin, that's a new thing, even for the Catalyst.  
[/quote] 

[/quote] 

So. The almighty   space  wizard race that invented Relays and Citadel and  Reapers could not built something like their own Crucible? They needed to wait for a one-specific-cycle races, that were not even close to full understanding of the Mass Effect to build one? From this point of view the Crucible must be as primitive to the space wizards as to us creating a fire with a stick and a stone.

 [quote]  1c) I think they wouldn't be cybernetical organisms, but something more; that's why it calles it a new evolution step. Or it was just written in for the sake of Deus Ex 1 fans.
[/quote] 

Still no answer about what's preventing the cyborgs of making new synthetics that will wage war against those cyborgs. I used the term "cyborgs" because i have no idea how to call them, it's irrelevant.

[quote]
2a) That could be explained...  [/quote] 

It can. But it's not. That's the point.


[quote]
d) That doesn't prove anything. After three hundred years of war, we have... what one month of peace in a major crisis where we face an outisde threat? Let's see it in one hundred years from now on. [/quote] 

But we don't   see and that's the point.


[quote]
They are totally different. Completely. [/quote]
Thanks god i'm not color blind yes there are.

 Reaper's gone (destroyed) Relays explode in RED color. Normandy crashes. 
 Reaper's gone (fly away) Relays explode in Blue \\ Green colors. Normandy crashes. 

Yes. Huge Difference between that and that.

Modifié par Nefelius, 15 mars 2012 - 02:28 .

[Killer3000ad]

Says it all.

[shepskisaac]

Nefelius wrote...

Did you not get it?

Reapers dont want the synthetics to kill all organics. So they enslave synthetics (geth) to kill organics. Yay.

And what difference does it make how they kill the organics they want to kill and would've killed? And by enslaving geth, they guarantee themselves control and easy "switch of all of them" button. They're killing two birds with 1 stone.

[Sharrack]

While i probably wouldn't have a lot of problems with 1.), for me points 2.) and 3.) hit the ball out of the park. Especially Shepards weakness during the last dialog and how the Normandy got were it was without any further explanation, accompanied by a complete lack of a worthy epilogue make this ending fell like it belongs to a different game. I can understand that people think it might be a good ending i just can't understand how they can deem it a fitting - not to mention worthy - ending to this game.

[kongenial]

[Nefelius]

IsaacShep wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

Did you not get it?

Reapers dont want the synthetics to kill all organics. So they enslave synthetics (geth) to kill organics. Yay.

And what difference does it make how they kill the organics they want to kill and would've killed? And by enslaving geth, they guarantee themselves control and easy "switch of all of them" button. They're killing two birds with 1 stone.

But...but ...dammit...they USE SYNTHETICS TO KILL ORGANICS  to make sure that SYNTHTETICS DO NOT  KILL ORGANICS.
Don't tell me that you see this in any way logical. Who cares what's the best way to accomplish theire goal. Do you kill your dog  so noone kills your dog?

Modifié par Nefelius, 15 mars 2012 - 02:46 .