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On the Mass Effect 3 endings. Yes, we are listening.


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#2776
Game_Fan_85

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NightHawkIL wrote...

Game_Fan_85 wrote...

People wonder why Chris or any other BioWare person hasn't posted. There is another thread about the ending, isn't this supposed to be about the moments we loved from the game?


They need to be extremely careful what they come out and say. Every single word that is spoken needs to be absolute truth or it will come back to bite them just as all of good ol' Casey's promises about the endings have. I'm sure they sat around the conference room for an hour at least, just trying to figure out if they should make a forum post or not.


Heh, I think it is more like they were having meetings about what to say from last week when this mess blew up ;)

#2777
LinksOcarina

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Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Shermos wrote...

BTDUBS wrote...

Shermos wrote...

Bioware, please leave the endings as they are. I beg you. The people demanding the that the endings be changed are being ridiculous and simply have no right to do so whatsoever. It is Your creative work, not theirs.

The endings are fine as they are and set things up for a new Mass Effect game set after the events of ME3 very nicely. I'll happily buy DLC which expands on what is already in the core game, but not anything which significantly changes it. It will set a very bad precedent.

I sincerely believe the people demanding a change are a vocal minority. The Bioware forums and your twitter accounts don't give a fair representation.


Since we the consumers are the ones who fund these products through our hard earned money, we have the right to demand a better ending since we paid $60+ for this game. Mad fans = bad business.




I'm trying to be polite, but honestly, grow up people.


Yes how dare the fans feel betrayed by the ending!

I'm trying to be polite, but honestly, shut up.



I'm not being polite; you are an ignorant fool.. 

If you feel betrayed by the ending, thats fine. But to suddenly demand that the company decide to make an ending to fit your tastes is unprecedented in ANYTHING I have ever seen in gaming. 

Look, the problem I am seeing here is simple really; the fans don't like the ending and they want it fixed. But BioWare is well within their right to not do anything (and personally, I think they shouldn't after the treatment of them as of late.) Fans are being fickle over 5 minutes in a 125 hour experience; it's like people complaining about the ending to Godfather Part III, despite the fact that the previous six hours of the Godfather movies were pure gold.

I didn't like the ending that much either, but I at least respect the fact that BioWare decided to try something different. The problem is its not good enough in the end for some people. I get that. But bombarding them with seething negativity shows how ignorant one can be on the entire situation. Hell, even the charity to childs play is a nicer idea, and I think its sad that people are so obsessed over one video game.

Or maybe its a mark that you guys really liked the game and want it to be perfect; good old armchair psychology calls this sub-consiousously looking for perfection in something that is inherently imperfect anyway. But I digress...

#2778
AnsinJung

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Chitzen Itza wrote...

Shermos wrote...

Bioware, please leave the endings as they are. I beg you. The people demanding the that the endings be changed are being ridiculous and simply have no right to do so whatsoever. It is Your creative work, not theirs.

The endings are fine as they are and set things up for a new Mass Effect game set after the events of ME3 very nicely. I'll happily buy DLC which expands on what is already in the core game, but not anything which significantly changes it. It will set a very bad precedent.

I sincerely believe the people demanding a change are a vocal minority. The Bioware forums and your twitter accounts don't give a fair representation.

Just for interest sake:

www.atomicmpc.com.au/Feature/293874,it8217s-not-okay-for-developers-to-8216patch8217-an-ending.aspx


I do think that patching the ending would not be a good move, but releasing a DLC or expansion that continues after Shepard wakes up (I am a firm beliver in the "indoctrination theory") for free would be good form to give an actual conclusion to the story. 

Also, your "vocal minority" statement falls flat on its face when you look at the polls. Even on this site an overwhelming majority (>90% of about 26k people last I checked) have voiced disappointment with the endings and a desire for a better ending.


Indeed, people don't just think differently if they don't browse forums.  Further, there are several who do but aren't "vocal" as they are lurkers.  I believe to some extent that the vocal minority causes an unnecessary ruckus at times, but this does not in any way appear to be one of those times. 

About the indoctrination, I'm also a firm believer.  There's not much else to believe in, although there may be a million gamer minds trying to come up with something even better right now.

It's funny, because in a way, I am sort of being indoctrinated by the ending.  One conclusion we've been led to believe due to the nature of technological advances in Mass Effect and people looking to control, like TIM, is that the Reapers do seem inevitable.  Take the larger picture of sci-fi movies, games, and books and this theme comes up over and over.  Deus Ex, The Matrix, Xenogears, 2001, A Space Odyssey, Michael Crichton's "Prey."  It's become a popular myth for the future, a little feared, largely laughed at, but increasingly in the back of our minds.

#2779
NightHawkIL

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Stygian1 wrote...

I simply can't grasp why anyone is against the change? I mean if you liked the ending great. But, why would you want the majority of ME fans not to? I mean that really seems so unnecessary and cruel. How does it hurt you? How does it hurt BioWare?

(I'm not looking for a fight, I really don't understand

Also don't just spit out "It's art" or "Its theirs" because really, I think we've established its not the former and emotionally and morally its not the latter.


I'll second that. I've said as much multiple times but it never seems to sink in for some people.

It's like saying, 'I don't want lemonade because I already have orange juice, so I want lemonade to be outlawed for everyone'.

#2780
ljn14

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I'm with everyone else here, the whole goddamn franchise was A MASTERPIECE until that awful joke of an ending.

#2781
Treavor647

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Can people stop calling the game a work of art? Works of Art are not mass produced in factories by the hundreds of thousands. Its a product plain and simple. And the people posting are Consumers. and are having buyers remorse. like most, I did not pay for a Collectors Edition to "speculate" on a ending. If that was the case i would just Speculate the whole game and save 90 bucks plus tax.

As most people cannot get their money back, or not the the value they paid for it (game stop in my area stop taking ME3 trade ins) they are contacting the company in hopes they can resolve this. I am being nice and giving them until PAX to explain.

#2782
cinderburster

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LinksOcarina wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Shermos wrote...

BTDUBS wrote...

Shermos wrote...

Bioware, please leave the endings as they are. I beg you. The people demanding the that the endings be changed are being ridiculous and simply have no right to do so whatsoever. It is Your creative work, not theirs.

The endings are fine as they are and set things up for a new Mass Effect game set after the events of ME3 very nicely. I'll happily buy DLC which expands on what is already in the core game, but not anything which significantly changes it. It will set a very bad precedent.

I sincerely believe the people demanding a change are a vocal minority. The Bioware forums and your twitter accounts don't give a fair representation.


Since we the consumers are the ones who fund these products through our hard earned money, we have the right to demand a better ending since we paid $60+ for this game. Mad fans = bad business.




I'm trying to be polite, but honestly, grow up people.


Yes how dare the fans feel betrayed by the ending!

I'm trying to be polite, but honestly, shut up.



I'm not being polite; you are an ignorant fool.. 

If you feel betrayed by the ending, thats fine. But to suddenly demand that the company decide to make an ending to fit your tastes is unprecedented in ANYTHING I have ever seen in gaming. 

Look, the problem I am seeing here is simple really; the fans don't like the ending and they want it fixed. But BioWare is well within their right to not do anything (and personally, I think they shouldn't after the treatment of them as of late.) Fans are being fickle over 5 minutes in a 125 hour experience; it's like people complaining about the ending to Godfather Part III, despite the fact that the previous six hours of the Godfather movies were pure gold.

I didn't like the ending that much either, but I at least respect the fact that BioWare decided to try something different. The problem is its not good enough in the end for some people. I get that. But bombarding them with seething negativity shows how ignorant one can be on the entire situation. Hell, even the charity to childs play is a nicer idea, and I think its sad that people are so obsessed over one video game.

Or maybe its a mark that you guys really liked the game and want it to be perfect; good old armchair psychology calls this sub-consiousously looking for perfection in something that is inherently imperfect anyway. But I digress...


Most of the arguments--not all--for an expanded or different ending have been very civil and mature.  Most of them have come in the form of constructive criticism, and for any company--hell, anyone that creates anything for an audience--that is invaluable.  

Whether or not Bioware decides to change the ending, there's absolutely no reason for people not to express their discontent.  If anything, it's a valuable learning experience for the company, and with luck they won't repeat the same mistakes.

Modifié par cinderburster, 16 mars 2012 - 04:25 .


#2783
Nathonas

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cinderburster wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

James Trauben at pixelatedgeek says it so much better than I do here:

The whole article is well worth a read.

Here's an excerpt:

"But there’s only so much dancing around the issue I’m willing to do. Nearly 99% of Mass Effect 3 is a superb game, quite possibly Game of the Year material. Even the missteps are largely forgivable. It is precisely the evolutionary drive western RPGs should embrace.

However, that remaining one percent, culminating in an out-of-the-blue reveal during literally the last five to ten minutes of the game, is so ill-thought-out, so inconclusive, so almost genuinely insulting coming after a game experience that radiates love for its universe and its narrative, that it doesn’t just damage this title but the entire franchise. It ripples backwards in the series and hurts replayability for the previous two games, a rare feat indeed.

A cohesive trilogy spanning years is destroyed by five ill-conceived minutes. It’s as if the scenario writers and the writer weren’t just two separate groups with separate ideas of what Mass Effect meant, but that they actively set out to negate each others’ work. (If only it were this simple! Released dev documents do not inspire confidence.)

I cannot overstate the shadow of this ending. To those who’ve started with Mass Effect 3 it might be merely vague and frustrating – to fans who’ve stuck through all three games, it is manipulative, scornful, and creatively bankrupt. It is contradictory to everything the Mass Effect series has said – a sudden deus ex machina in reverse, an arbitrary choice of damnations offered by a malevolent and untrustworthy figure parroting deeply flawed arguments who makes their first appearance in the last five minutes of the game, followed by one of three all but identical versions of a vague, unsatisfying and plothole-ridden cutscene that guts characterization and neither shows nor tells.

At best, the ending merely contradicts the themes of the game and (if you were paying attention to the in-universe lore) ends in an inferred holocaust and breakdown of galactic society, to say nothing of the complete lack of closure for the fates of characters or civilization as a whole. Interpreting it at its worst, it renders literally everything the player – or Shepard – ever did completely pointless…coming after a touching and poignant discussion between Shepard and a dying character as they sit waiting for the end that validates Shepard’s heroism and choices. When the player has to invent ways to have the ending be less than crushing, it’s not clever – it’s maddening."


+1 to this, too.


I would say bwFex articulated my feelings much better than I could but the above captures it just as well.  For the love of all we hold dear in Mass Effect please FIX THE ENDING!.

As for my favorite scenes of ME3, I would say :
   1. Tali gazing on Rannoch and taking her face mask off to breathe in the atomsphere of her home world for the first time.
   2. Grunt fighting to what seemed like his death to help out the sqad only to find him staggering out covered in rachni blood.
   3. Blasting a mini-reaper using a sighting laser for the flee to bomboard it from orbit.
  
Edited wrong character all those Krogans look alike! :whistle:

Modifié par Nathonas, 16 mars 2012 - 04:44 .


#2784
Stygian1

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NightHawkIL wrote...

Stygian1 wrote...

I simply can't grasp why anyone is against the change? I mean if you liked the ending great. But, why would you want the majority of ME fans not to? I mean that really seems so unnecessary and cruel. How does it hurt you? How does it hurt BioWare?

(I'm not looking for a fight, I really don't understand

Also don't just spit out "It's art" or "Its theirs" because really, I think we've established its not the former and emotionally and morally its not the latter.


I'll second that. I've said as much multiple times but it never seems to sink in for some people.

It's like saying, 'I don't want lemonade because I already have orange juice, so I want lemonade to be outlawed for everyone'.


Lol thank you :lol:

I mean I really just don't understand them! :(

#2785
LinksOcarina

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Treavor647 wrote...

Can people stop calling the game a work of art? Works of Art are not mass produced in factories by the hundreds of thousands. Its a product plain and simple. And the people posting are Consumers. and are having buyers remorse. like most, I did not pay for a Collectors Edition to "speculate" on a ending. If that was the case i would just Speculate the whole game and save 90 bucks plus tax.

As most people cannot get their money back, or not the the value they paid for it (game stop in my area stop taking ME3 trade ins) they are contacting the company in hopes they can resolve this. I am being nice and giving them until PAX to explain.


You never heard of commercial art, have you?

And honestly, the game is only a work of art if you see it as a work of art, that is what gives it legitemacy of being an artistic expression in both visual and written form. Peception of the work is key here, and since everyone has a different perception, there will always be different interpetations on the whole "games are art" debate. 

#2786
Guest_EternalAmbiguity_*

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 I like how nearly every post here is off-topic, Chris. Considering you asked what our favorite part was, not why we hated the ending.
But, I feel compelled to chime in.

ME3 was wonderful. Completely, totally, wonderful.

Mass Effect 1 and 2 were great games. But, thr problem with them was, they were just games. I didn't feel them. They never really stirred any emotion in me. The only time they really did anything for me was during Mordin's LM, when he was struggling with himself over the genophage. In addition, I liked Jack, because I could empathize with her childhood, but she never grabbed me, you know?

This all changed with ME3. From the very beginning, when the kid dies in the shuttle, it was a very very emotional experience. I don't know what changed, because there was a definite change between ME2 and 3, but you guys scored a homer there.

There was a time when I couldn't cry at all. Life had hardened me just too much for that. Over time I softened, to where I could cry again, but games never made me cry. The first game to accomplish the feat was Final Fantasy XIII, and the second was FF XIII-2. As for ME3, I can't quite say it got me crying, but it came d*mn near close. Between the deaths of Mordin, Legion, Thane, and Anderson, it was fairly close. However, what nearly tipped me over the edge was:

Garrus: So, I guess this is--
Shepard: Just like old times?
Garrus: Hmm. Might be the last chance we get to say that.
Shepard: You think we're going to lose?
Garrus: No, I think we're about to kick the Reapers back into whatever black hole they crawled out of. Then, we're going to retire somewhere warm and tropical and live off the royalties from the vids.
Shepard: I'll meet you there. I think my days of saying the galaxy are over when this is done.
Garrus: Be sure to leave room for all the autographs.
Shepard: Just need to beat the Reapers to get there.
Garrus: James told me there's an old saying here on Earth: may you be in Heaven half an hour before the devil knows you're dead. Not sure if Turian Heaven is the same as yours, but...if this thing goes sideways and we both end up there, meet me at the bar.
Shepard: We're a team, Garrus. There's no Shepard without Vakarian. So you better remember to duck.
Garrus: Sorry, Turians don't know how...but I'll improvise. And Shepard: Forgive the insubordination, but this old friend has an order for you: Go out there, and give them hell. You were born to do this.
Shepard: Goodbye, Garrus. And if I'm up there in that bar and you're not,  I'll be looking down. I'll always have your back.

D*mn. Just playing that back and writing the dialog down is making me tear up. And I don't even really LIKE Garrus.

I was gonna talk all about why I liked the endings, but I guess I don't care at the moment. Continue writing dialog like this, Bioware, and your endings won't matter. I'll be a customer for life.

Modifié par EternalAmbiguity, 16 mars 2012 - 04:29 .


#2787
Himmelstor

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Nathonas wrote...

I would say bwFex articulated my feelings much better than I could but the above captures it just as well.  For the love of all we hold dear in Mass Effect please FIX THE ENDING!.

As for my favorite scenes of ME3, I would say :
   1. Tali gazing on Rannoch and taking her face mask off to breathe in the atomsphere of her home world for the first time.
   2. Wrex fighting to what seemed like his death to help out the sqad only to find him staggering out covered in rachni blood.
   3.  Blasting a mini-reaper using a sighting laser for the flee to bomboard it from orbit.

2: That wasn't Wrex. That was Grunt.

#2788
Dartack

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NightHawkIL wrote...

Stygian1 wrote...

I simply can't grasp why anyone is against the change? I mean if you liked the ending great. But, why would you want the majority of ME fans not to? I mean that really seems so unnecessary and cruel. How does it hurt you? How does it hurt BioWare?

(I'm not looking for a fight, I really don't understand

Also don't just spit out "It's art" or "Its theirs" because really, I think we've established its not the former and emotionally and morally its not the latter.


I'll second that. I've said as much multiple times but it never seems to sink in for some people.

It's like saying, 'I don't want lemonade because I already have orange juice, so I want lemonade to be outlawed for everyone'.


third, now pass the lemonade

#2789
s8383783

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

 I like how nearly every post here is off-topic, Chris. Considering you asked what our favorite part was, not why we hated the ending.
But, I feel compelled to chime in.

ME3 was wonderful. Completely, totally, wonderful.

Mass Effect 1 and 2 were great games. But, thr problem with them was, they were just games. I didn't feel them. They never really stirred any emotion in me. The only time they really did anything for me was during Mordin's LM, when he was struggling with himself over the genophage. In addition, I liked Jack, because I could empathize with her childhood, but she never grabbed me, you know?

This all changed with ME3. From the very beginning, when the kid dies in the shuttle, it was a very very emotional experience. I don't know what changed, because there was a definite change between ME2 and 3, but you guys scored a homer there.

There was a time when I couldn't cry at all. Life had hardened me just too much for that. Over time I softened, to where I could cry again, but games never made me cry. The first game to accomplish the feat was Final Fantasy XIII, and the second was FF XIII-2. As for ME3, I can't quite say it got me crying, but it came d*mn near close. Between the deaths of Mordin, Legion, Thane, and Anderson, it was fairly close. However, what nearly tipped me over the edge was:

Garrus: So, I guess this is--
Shepard: Just like old times?
Garrus: Hmm. Might be the last chance we get to say that.
Shepard: You think we're going to lose?
Garrus: No, I think we're about to kick the Reapers back into whatever black hole they crawled out of. Then, we're going to retire somewhere warm and tropical and live off the royalties from the vids.
Shepard: I'll meet you there. I think my days of saying the galaxy are over when this is done.
Garrus: Be sure to leave room for all the autographs.
Shepard: Just need to beat the Reapers to get there.
Garrus: James told me there's an old saying here on Earth: may you be in Heaven half an hour before the devil knows you're dead. Not sure if Turian Heaven is the same as yours, but...if this thing goes sideways and we both end up there, meet me at the bar.
Shepard: We're a team, Garrus. There's no Shepard without Vakarian. So you better remember to duck.
Garrus: Sorry, Turians don't know how...but I'll improvise. And Shepard: Forgive the insubordination, but this old friend has an order for you: Go out there, and give them hell. You were born to do this.
Shepard: Goodbye, Garrus. And if I'm up there in that bar and you're not,  I'll be looking down. I'll always have your back.

D*mn. Just playing that back and writing the dialog down is making me tear up. And I don't even really LIKE Garrus.

I was gonna talk all about why I liked the endings, but I guess I don't care at the moment. Continue writing dialog like this, Bioware, and your endings won't matter. I'll be a customer for life.



I don't understand how you cannot like Garrus...I just can't comprehend.... I-  *explodes*

#2790
bkp360

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Like everyone else here... so many good moments up until that horrific last 20 minutes.

1. Tali tells me she loves me
2. Mordin saying 'would have liked to run tests on seashells'
3. Making peace between Geth and Quarian
4. Seeing the history of the Geth
5. Punching the reporter (again)

So much good in this. This is why the ending hurt so much.

#2791
Treavor647

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LinksOcarina wrote...



I'm not being polite; you are an ignorant fool.. 

If you feel betrayed by the ending, thats fine. But to suddenly demand that the company decide to make an ending to fit your tastes is unprecedented in ANYTHING I have ever seen in gaming. 

Look, the problem I am seeing here is simple really; the fans don't like the ending and they want it fixed. But BioWare is well within their right to not do anything (and personally, I think they shouldn't after the treatment of them as of late.) Fans are being fickle over 5 minutes in a 125 hour experience; it's like people complaining about the ending to Godfather Part III, despite the fact that the previous six hours of the Godfather movies were pure gold.

I didn't like the ending that much either, but I at least respect the fact that BioWare decided to try something different. The problem is its not good enough in the end for some people. I get that. But bombarding them with seething negativity shows how ignorant one can be on the entire situation. Hell, even the charity to childs play is a nicer idea, and I think its sad that people are so obsessed over one video game.

Or maybe its a mark that you guys really liked the game and want it to be perfect; good old armchair psychology calls this sub-consiousously looking for perfection in something that is inherently imperfect anyway. But I digress...


Just a hint you loose all credibility when you name call ;-)

You are right, Bioware does not have to change anything.  If they feel it is fine then they are well within their rights to jsut sit back and let people suffer.  And it is ALSO a fact that the consumers and the people who have supported them no longer have to do so.   They have a war game coming out later this year and they already said they are making DA3.  Those consumers no longer have to buy their games.  They can easily grab high quality RPG's from others like Bethesda.  Since those who are upset with the ending are the majority, can you imagine how well those games are going to do if they ****** off their client base?

And Endings have changed in Games by the way. Fallout  3 comes to mind. 

#2792
sparkyo42

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This is my first post after having many BW games but this has moved my to speak. I don't really care if they have a get out of jail free card in their back pocket, I'm an Irish player who already got burnt by the EA/ Game collector issue, now this.

If tomorrow they announced a full ending I still wouldn't care, I won't give them anymore money for what we have a right to expect, ie an ending that wasn't put together by monkey's (and that's an insult to monkey's)

BTW if anyone from BW is reading insert a swear word for every second word and know that you lost a long standing customer because of this nonsense.

#2793
tackle70

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My favorite moment was basically everything until the final 20 minutes of the trilogy which proceeded to retroactively ruin all 200+ hours I had spent with this series, and which in just a few short minutes removed the Mass Effect series from my "favorite/best games of all time" list...

Let's put it this way: I would rather go on 100 bland side quests in the ME1 Mako, and then scan for minerals for 10 hours in ME2 than go through the ending of ME3 again. It's that poor and unsatisfying.

Anyways, I appreciate that you guys are listening. I'd appreciate it more if you offered up some more choices/consequences/etc for the ending (and no, adding more color options to the mass relay explosions doesn't count).

Serious note favorite parts:
ME3 - Mordin curing the Krogan (IMO high point of the game from an emotional/character standpoint).
ME2 (and high point of the series for me) - Collector base - one of the most epic endgame missions in any game, ever. Doesn't even matter that the final boss was kinda lame to some - the ending was amazing.
ME1 - Ilos

Modifié par tackle70, 16 mars 2012 - 04:34 .


#2794
Eld019

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Shepard, wake up.

Please.

#2795
LastLivingSoul09

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Himmelstor wrote...

Shermos wrote...

Himmelstor wrote...

Shermos wrote...

Bioware, please leave the endings as they are. I beg you. The people demanding the that the endings be changed are being ridiculous and simply have no right to do so whatsoever. It is Your creative work, not theirs.

The endings are fine as they are and set things up for a new Mass Effect game set after the events of ME3 very nicely. I'll happily buy DLC which expands on what is already in the core game, but not anything which significantly changes it. It will set a very bad precedent.

I sincerely believe the people demanding a change are a vocal minority. The Bioware forums and your twitter accounts don't give a fair representation.

Against all polls, user reviews, etc. to the contrary.


From my previous post.

"The Bioware forums and your twitter accounts don't give a fair representation."

In other words, the polls are meaningless because they don't reflect the majority or people who have played the game or even fans of the series. And if you link to Metacritic you deserve only to be laughed at. The user section of that site is even less meaningful.


That may be true. However, a vocal minority would not have nearly as much influence as you imply. By dint of being the minority, It shouldn't be possible for these kinds of numbers. It should still be skewed the other way in the polls, in the reviews. Yes, in the forums, hateful voices tend to trump the majority opinion.

This....I have never seen this before. And I agree with the vocal majority.




"Hardcore fans are the ones that are going to spread word of mouth, for
good or ill, about your product the farthest. The vocal minority is
vocal for a reason. If you can cultivate this core audience you stand a
much better chance at long-term success; ignore them or abandon them and
not only do you lose a lot of good will, you probably risk losing
something else important about your product that made it great in the
first place"  --Erik Kain, Forbes.com

Modifié par LastLivingSoul09, 16 mars 2012 - 04:36 .


#2796
devSin

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The ending makes it pretty irrelevant which moments are favorites. Does it really matter if they were good or great if I never have any desire to play through them again?

#2797
Shinobi2u

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Game_Fan_85 wrote...

NightHawkIL wrote...

Game_Fan_85 wrote...

People wonder why Chris or any other BioWare person hasn't posted. There is another thread about the ending, isn't this supposed to be about the moments we loved from the game?


They need to be extremely careful what they come out and say. Every single word that is spoken needs to be absolute truth or it will come back to bite them just as all of good ol' Casey's promises about the endings have. I'm sure they sat around the conference room for an hour at least, just trying to figure out if they should make a forum post or not.


Heh, I think it is more like they were having meetings about what to say from last week when this mess blew up ;)


Would not doubt it. People want an immediate response, but I am sure they have to take time and figure out what to say over there.

Treavor647 wrote...

Can people stop calling the game a
work of art? Works of Art are not mass produced in factories by the
hundreds of thousands. Its a product plain and simple. And the people
posting are Consumers. and are having buyers remorse. like most, I did
not pay for a Collectors Edition to "speculate" on a ending. If that
was the case i would just Speculate the whole game and save 90 bucks
plus tax.

As most people cannot get their money back, or not the
the value they paid for it (game stop in my area stop taking ME3 trade
ins) they are contacting the company in hopes they can resolve this. I
am being nice and giving them until PAX to explain.


You are entitiled to your opinion, but your logic feels flawed. Movies, books, comics, even prints of art are all mass produced, but they are still works of art. The amount of how much something is made has no bearing on what it should be classified to me. I see games as being multiple pieces of art made by multiple people put together in a final product and by default, is art.

Modifié par Shinobi2u, 16 mars 2012 - 04:38 .


#2798
Treavor647

Treavor647
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LinksOcarina wrote...

Treavor647 wrote...

Can people stop calling the game a work of art? Works of Art are not mass produced in factories by the hundreds of thousands. Its a product plain and simple. And the people posting are Consumers. and are having buyers remorse. like most, I did not pay for a Collectors Edition to "speculate" on a ending. If that was the case i would just Speculate the whole game and save 90 bucks plus tax.

As most people cannot get their money back, or not the the value they paid for it (game stop in my area stop taking ME3 trade ins) they are contacting the company in hopes they can resolve this. I am being nice and giving them until PAX to explain.


You never heard of commercial art, have you?

And honestly, the game is only a work of art if you see it as a work of art, that is what gives it legitemacy of being an artistic expression in both visual and written form. Peception of the work is key here, and since everyone has a different perception, there will always be different interpetations on the whole "games are art" debate. 


Its a debate for you, Its a product to me.  And with products if i am given a subpar product and given bad customer service (A answer nay - we are not changing it, or ya - we are would suffice) i am less inclined to give them any more of my money :)

just the way i roll

#2799
Dark Penitant

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bwFex wrote...

I really have been trying to let myself get over this nightmare, but since you guys promise you're listening here, I'll try to just say it all, get it all out.

I have invested more of myself into this series than almost any other video game franchise in my life. I loved this game. I believed in it. For five years, it delivered. I must have played ME1 and ME2 a dozen times each.

I remember the end of Mass Effect 2. Never before, in any video game I had ever played, did I feel like my actions really mattered. Knowing that the decisions I made and the hard work I put into ME2 had a very real, clear, obvious impact on who lived and who died was one of the most astounding feelings in the world to me. I remember when that laser hit the Normandy and Joker made a comment about how he was happy we upgraded the shields. That was amazing. Cause and effect. Work and reward.

The first time I went through, I lost Mordin, and it was gut-wrenching: watching him die because I made a bad decision was damning, heartbreaking. But it wasn't hopeless, because I knew I could go back, do better, and save him. I knew that I was in control, that my actions mattered. So that's exactly what I did. I reviewed my decisions, found my mistakes, and did everything right. I put together a plan, I worked hard to follow that plan, and I got the reward I had worked so hard for. And then, it was all for nothing.

When I started playing Mass Effect 3, I was blown away. It was perfect. Everything was perfect. It was incredible to see all of my decisions playing out in front of me, building up to new and outrageous outcomes. I was so sure that this was it, this was going to be the masterpiece that crowned an already near-perfect trilogy. With every war asset I gathered, and with every multiplayer game I won, I knew that my work would pay off, that I would be truly satisfied with the outcome of my hard work and smart decisions. Every time I acquired a new WA bonus, I couldn't wait to see how it would play out in the final battle. And then, it was all for nothing.

I wasn't expecting a perfect, happy ending with rainbows and butterflies. In fact, I think I may have been insulted if everyone made it through just fine. The Reapers are an enormous threat (although obviously not as invincible as they would like us to believe), and we should be right to anticipate heavy losses. But I never lost hope. I built alliances, I made the impossible happen to rally the galaxy together. I cured the genophage. I saved the Turians. I united the geth and the quarians. And then, it was all for nothing.

When Mordin died, it was heartwrenching, but I knew it was the right thing. His sacrifice was... perfect. It made sense. It was congruent with the dramatic themes that had been present since I very first met Wrex in ME1. It was not a cheap trick, a deus ex machina, an easy out. It was beautiful, meaningful, significant, relevant, and satisfying. It was an amazing way for an amazing character to sacrifice themself for an amazing thing. And then it was all for nothing.

When Thane died, it was tearjerking. I knew from the moment he explained his illness that one day, I'd have to deal with his death. I knew he was never going to survive the trilogy, and I knew it wouldn't be fun to watch him go. But when his son started reading the prayer, I lost it. His death was beautiful. It was significant. It was relevant. It was satisfying. It was meaningful. He died to protect Shepard, to protect the entire Citadel. He took a life he thought was unredeemable and used it to make the world a brighter place. And then it was all for nothing.

When Wrex and Eve thanked me for saving their species, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Tali set foot on her homeworld, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Javik gave his inspiring speech, I felt that I had inspired something truly great. When I activated the Citadel's arms, sat down to reminisce with Anderson one final time, I felt that I had truly accomplished something amazing. I felt that my sacrifice was meaningful. Significant. Relevant. And while still a completely unexplained deus ex machina, at least it was a little bit satisfying.

And then, just like everything else in this trilogy, it was all for nothing.

If we pretend like the indoctrination theory is false, and we're really supposed to take the ending at face value, this entire game is a lost cause. The krogans will never repopulate. The quarians will never rebuild their home world. The geth will never know what it means to be alive and independent. The salarians will never see how people can change for the better.

Instead, the quarians and turians will endure a quick, torturous extinction as they slowly starve to death, trapped in a system with no support for them. Everyone else will squabble over the scraps of Earth that haven't been completely obliterated, until the krogans drive them all to extinction and then die off without any women present. And this is all assuming that the relays didn't cause supernova-scaled extinction events simply by being destroyed, like we saw in Arrival.

And perhaps the worst part is that we don't even know. We don't know what happened to our squadmates. We didn't get any sort of catharsis, conclusion. We got five years of literary foreplay followed by a kick to the groin and a note telling us that in a couple months, we can pay Bioware $15 for them to do it to us all over again.

It's not just the abysmally depressing/sacrificial nature of the ending, either. As I've already made perfectly clear, I came into this game expecting sacrifice. When Mordin did it, it was beautiful. When Thane did it, it was beautiful. Even Verner. Stupid, misguided, idiotic Verner. Even his ridiculous sacrifice had meaning, relevance, coherence, and offered satisfaction.

No, it's not the sacrifice I have a problem with. It's the utter lack of coherence and respect for the five years of literary gold that have already been established in this franchise. We spent three games preparing to fight these reapers. I spent hours upon hours doing every side quest, picking up every war asset, maxing out my galactic readiness so that when the time came, the army I had built could make a stand, and show these Reapers that we won't go down without a fight.

In ME1, we did the impossible when we killed Sovereign. In ME2, we began to see that the Reapers aren't as immortal as they claim to be: that even they have basic needs, exploitable weaknesses. In ME3, we saw the Reapers die. We saw one get taken down by an overgrown worm. We saw one die with a few coordinated orbital bombardments. We saw several ripped apart by standard space combat. In ME1, it took three alliance fleets to kill the "invincible" Sovereign. By the end of ME3, I had assembled a galactic armada fifty times more powerful than that, and a thousand times more prepared. I never expected the fight to be easy, but I proved that we wouldn't go down without a fight, that there is always hope in unity. That's the theme we've been given for the past five years: there is hope and strength through unity. That if we work together, we can achieve the impossible.

And then we're supposed to believe that the fate of the galaxy comes down to some completely unexplained starchild asking Shepard what his favorite color is? That the army we built was all for nothing? That the squad whose loyalty we fought so hard for was all for nothing? That in the end, none of it mattered at all?

It's a poetic notion, but this isn't the place for poetry. It's one thing to rattle prose nihilistic over the course of a movie or ballad, where the audience is a passive observer, learning a lesson from the suffering and futility of a character, but that's not what Mass Effect is. Mass Effect has always been about making the player the true hero. If you really want us to all feel like we spent the past five years dumping time, energy, and emotional investment into this game just to tell us that nothing really matters, you have signed your own death certificate. Nobody pays hundreds of dollars and hours to be reminded how bleak, empty, and depressing the world can be, to be told that nothing we do matters, to be told that all of our greatest accomplishments, all of our faith, all of our work, all of our unity is for nothing.

No. It simply cannot be this bleak. I refuse to believe Bioware is really doing this. The ending of ME1 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won. The ending of ME2 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won.

Taken at face value, the end of ME3 throws every single thing we've done in the past five years into the wind, and makes the player watch from a distance as the entire galaxy is thrown into a technological dark age and a stellar extinction. Why would we care about a universe that no longer exists? We should we invest any more time or money into a world that will never be what we came to know and love?

Even if the ending is retconned, it doesn't make things better. Just knowing that the starchild was our real foe the entire time is so utterly mindless, contrived, and irrelevant to what we experienced in ME1 and ME2 that it cannot be forgiven. If that really is the truth, then Mass Effect simply isn't what we thought it was. And frankly, if this is what Mass Effect was supposed to be all along, I want no part of it. It's a useless, trite, overplayed cliche, so far beneath the praise I once gave this franchise that it hurts to think about.

No. There is no way to save this franchise without giving us the only explanation that makes sense. You know what it is. It was the plan all along. Too much evidence to not be true. Too many people reaching the same conclusions independently.

The indoctrination theory doesn't just save this franchise: it elevates it to one of the most powerful and compelling storytelling experiences I've ever had in my life. The fact that you managed to do more than indoctrinate Shepard - you managed to indoctrinate the players themselves - is astonishing. If that really was the end game, here, then you have won my gaming soul. But if that's true, then I'm still waiting for the rest of this story, the final chapter of Shepard's heroic journey. I paid to finish the fight, and if the indoctrination theory is true, it's not over yet.

And if it's not, then I just don't even care. I have been betrayed, and it's time for me to let go of the denial, the anger, the bargaining, and start working through the depression and emptiness until I can just move on. You can't keep teasing us like this. This must have seemed like a great plan at the time, but it has cost too much. These people believed in you. I believed in you.

Just make it right.


Absolutely this. Just. This.

#2800
ManOfSteeL1618

ManOfSteeL1618
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LinksOcarina wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Shermos wrote...

BTDUBS wrote...

Shermos wrote...

Bioware, please leave the endings as they are. I beg you. The people demanding the that the endings be changed are being ridiculous and simply have no right to do so whatsoever. It is Your creative work, not theirs.

The endings are fine as they are and set things up for a new Mass Effect game set after the events of ME3 very nicely. I'll happily buy DLC which expands on what is already in the core game, but not anything which significantly changes it. It will set a very bad precedent.

I sincerely believe the people demanding a change are a vocal minority. The Bioware forums and your twitter accounts don't give a fair representation.


Since we the consumers are the ones who fund these products through our hard earned money, we have the right to demand a better ending since we paid $60+ for this game. Mad fans = bad business.




I'm trying to be polite, but honestly, grow up people.


Yes how dare the fans feel betrayed by the ending!

I'm trying to be polite, but honestly, shut up.



I'm not being polite; you are an ignorant fool.. 

If you feel betrayed by the ending, thats fine. But to suddenly demand that the company decide to make an ending to fit your tastes is unprecedented in ANYTHING I have ever seen in gaming. 

Look, the problem I am seeing here is simple really; the fans don't like the ending and they want it fixed. But BioWare is well within their right to not do anything (and personally, I think they shouldn't after the treatment of them as of late.) Fans are being fickle over 5 minutes in a 125 hour experience; it's like people complaining about the ending to Godfather Part III, despite the fact that the previous six hours of the Godfather movies were pure gold.

I didn't like the ending that much either, but I at least respect the fact that BioWare decided to try something different. The problem is its not good enough in the end for some people. I get that. But bombarding them with seething negativity shows how ignorant one can be on the entire situation. Hell, even the charity to childs play is a nicer idea, and I think its sad that people are so obsessed over one video game.

Or maybe its a mark that you guys really liked the game and want it to be perfect; good old armchair psychology calls this sub-consiousously looking for perfection in something that is inherently imperfect anyway. But I digress...




It's only because the last few minutes(and most important part of the series) was not Mass Effect. It didn't really belong there at all. Had they at least gave me the option to ask the Catalyst questions I would be fine with it.