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On the Mass Effect 3 endings. Yes, we are listening.


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#2951
zegota

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Why do you argue this? You are satisfied, correct?  What does it matter what we want? You got what you wanted. Do you fear losing the ending you were satisfied with?



Yes. But more importantly, I feel like if Bioware caves on this bull****, it essentially means there's no such thing as art in video games anymore. Basically, there's no need for writers. Just put a call out in the forums -- "HEY GUYS, WHAT CHOO WANT TO HAPPEN IN THE END?" -- and go with the top 3 voted endings. That's absolutely what this community wants, and it's shameful. It's singlehandedly killing the concept of storytelling in a video game, and means it's incredibly unlikely any company -- especially Bioware -- is going to bother making an epic trilogy, or even a story focused game, anytime in the near future. Why would they? They get their game lambasted on review sites, promises of everlasting boycotts, and for what? They could have easily made Call of Duty: Space Warfare and made just as much money.

That's the eventual outcome of this. The David Jaffes of the world -- who say video games are fundamentally ill-suited to tell stories -- win. We get the shell of a conflict just as a backdrop so we can shoot Russians or Germans or whichever nationality fits into the next Modern Warfare.

Congratulations.

#2952
Guest_EternalAmbiguity_*

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Himmelstor wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Don't twist my words.

My logic is, because you're going to die one day, you make the most of each day, you do as much good as you can. And when you're knocking on death's door, you'll know that even though the ending sucked (you're dead, after all), the part in between was good.

You don't say, "Oh no, dying sucks so that makes everything in life I did suck!"

Don't twist our meanings.  We aren't necessarily talking about death or that being the end. We are saying the ending of a well thought out piece of fiction deserves more than this.
Agree or disagree. Hell's Bells, be neutral.
Do not interpret us so shallow and yourself so vast.


It's an analogy.

People in this thread saying: Ending sucked so everything about the series sucks is an appropriate anology to what I just said.

#2953
Trisskit

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Darth Malignus wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Omnike wrote...

That's not at all the same thing. Let's say you worked your ass off to get that kiss. Flowers, dates, the whole nine yards. It all costs money out of your pocket. Now let's say after all that hard work she finally wants to kiss you. And you're excited. Then you find out she doesn't have a tongue or teeth and it was the most unstasfying kiss every. All that hard work didn't pay off.


It IS the same thing. We've played Mass Effect for 100+ hours. 100+ hours of pleasure and enjoyment.

On the other hand, however, from what you're saying, it looks like you WEREN'T playing the game for enjoyment at any time. If you're sticking with your analogy.

But going with what I said, we've played for 100+ hours and had a h311 of a time. only the last five, ten minutes was "bad."

Do you really judge every.single.thing. in your life by the very very last part of it? Really? Say none of it matters because the very.very. last part was unsatisfactory? If that's true (and i doubt it) you must lead a depressing life, friend.


Everybody does that. Does it matter that you've lived happily with a wife/husband for 25 years, if the last 3 months before the divorce was a living nightmare? I'm pretty sure that no matter what we do, we'll remember whether or not the outcome was happy or not, instead of remembering if the trip to that outcome was "jolly" or not.


When I have 4+ playthroughs planned for ME3, and can't bring myself to play the rest after experiencing the ending, I would say that the ending effectively ruined the game. Despite how much I enjoyed the first run up to the end, my desire to continue is shot.

#2954
Omnike

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Then please, why don't you dismount from that high-horse of yours and explain it to us peons?

Why is my entire crew on the Normandy when they were with me on Earth 5 minutes ago? How did Joker walk away from a FTL ship-to-planet collision? If the relay exploding tore the Normandy to pieces, why didn't it hurt anything on Earth? Who created the StarChild? 


I still do not get why people keep implying everyone was on the Normandy... I completedit and I did not see everyone there at all, not even close.


Explain why I saw a living Garrus on it? He died. I saw him dead.

#2955
Himmelstor

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Someone gets it. THIS is what I'm trying to say. Don't say everything sucked just because the ending did.

We are not.
The consenses among the dissatisfied is that the ending was wrong enough to constitute a change.
We don't do this because we think the game is bad.\\
We do this because the rest of the game was so goddamned good!

#2956
jkflipflopDAO

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Then please, why don't you dismount from that high-horse of yours and explain it to us peons?

Why is my entire crew on the Normandy when they were with me on Earth 5 minutes ago? How did Joker walk away from a FTL ship-to-planet collision? If the relay exploding tore the Normandy to pieces, why didn't it hurt anything on Earth? Who created the StarChild? 


I still do not get why people keep implying everyone was on the Normandy... I completed it and I did not see everyone there at all, not even close.

Liara was with me on Earth riding in the APC to the transporter beam. Then she's climbing off the crashed Normandy with Joker.  They couldn't have sent a shuttle in to pick them up with the Reapers standing right there. How did she get from the streets of London to the Normandy?

#2957
digimmortal

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bwFex wrote...

I really have been trying to let myself get over this nightmare, but since you guys promise you're listening here, I'll try to just say it all, get it all out.

I have invested more of myself into this series than almost any other video game franchise in my life. I loved this game. I believed in it. For five years, it delivered. I must have played ME1 and ME2 a dozen times each.

I remember the end of Mass Effect 2. Never before, in any video game I had ever played, did I feel like my actions really mattered. Knowing that the decisions I made and the hard work I put into ME2 had a very real, clear, obvious impact on who lived and who died was one of the most astounding feelings in the world to me. I remember when that laser hit the Normandy and Joker made a comment about how he was happy we upgraded the shields. That was amazing. Cause and effect. Work and reward.

The first time I went through, I lost Mordin, and it was gut-wrenching: watching him die because I made a bad decision was damning, heartbreaking. But it wasn't hopeless, because I knew I could go back, do better, and save him. I knew that I was in control, that my actions mattered. So that's exactly what I did. I reviewed my decisions, found my mistakes, and did everything right. I put together a plan, I worked hard to follow that plan, and I got the reward I had worked so hard for. And then, it was all for nothing.

When I started playing Mass Effect 3, I was blown away. It was perfect. Everything was perfect. It was incredible to see all of my decisions playing out in front of me, building up to new and outrageous outcomes. I was so sure that this was it, this was going to be the masterpiece that crowned an already near-perfect trilogy. With every war asset I gathered, and with every multiplayer game I won, I knew that my work would pay off, that I would be truly satisfied with the outcome of my hard work and smart decisions. Every time I acquired a new WA bonus, I couldn't wait to see how it would play out in the final battle. And then, it was all for nothing.

I wasn't expecting a perfect, happy ending with rainbows and butterflies. In fact, I think I may have been insulted if everyone made it through just fine. The Reapers are an enormous threat (although obviously not as invincible as they would like us to believe), and we should be right to anticipate heavy losses. But I never lost hope. I built alliances, I made the impossible happen to rally the galaxy together. I cured the genophage. I saved the Turians. I united the geth and the quarians. And then, it was all for nothing.

When Mordin died, it was heartwrenching, but I knew it was the right thing. His sacrifice was... perfect. It made sense. It was congruent with the dramatic themes that had been present since I very first met Wrex in ME1. It was not a cheap trick, a deus ex machina, an easy out. It was beautiful, meaningful, significant, relevant, and satisfying. It was an amazing way for an amazing character to sacrifice themself for an amazing thing. And then it was all for nothing.

When Thane died, it was tearjerking. I knew from the moment he explained his illness that one day, I'd have to deal with his death. I knew he was never going to survive the trilogy, and I knew it wouldn't be fun to watch him go. But when his son started reading the prayer, I lost it. His death was beautiful. It was significant. It was relevant. It was satisfying. It was meaningful. He died to protect Shepard, to protect the entire Citadel. He took a life he thought was unredeemable and used it to make the world a brighter place. And then it was all for nothing.

When Wrex and Eve thanked me for saving their species, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Tali set foot on her homeworld, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Javik gave his inspiring speech, I felt that I had inspired something truly great. When I activated the Citadel's arms, sat down to reminisce with Anderson one final time, I felt that I had truly accomplished something amazing. I felt that my sacrifice was meaningful. Significant. Relevant. And while still a completely unexplained deus ex machina, at least it was a little bit satisfying.

And then, just like everything else in this trilogy, it was all for nothing.

If we pretend like the indoctrination theory is false, and we're really supposed to take the ending at face value, this entire game is a lost cause. The krogans will never repopulate. The quarians will never rebuild their home world. The geth will never know what it means to be alive and independent. The salarians will never see how people can change for the better.

Instead, the quarians and turians will endure a quick, torturous extinction as they slowly starve to death, trapped in a system with no support for them. Everyone else will squabble over the scraps of Earth that haven't been completely obliterated, until the krogans drive them all to extinction and then die off without any women present. And this is all assuming that the relays didn't cause supernova-scaled extinction events simply by being destroyed, like we saw in Arrival.

And perhaps the worst part is that we don't even know. We don't know what happened to our squadmates. We didn't get any sort of catharsis, conclusion. We got five years of literary foreplay followed by a kick to the groin and a note telling us that in a couple months, we can pay Bioware $15 for them to do it to us all over again.

It's not just the abysmally depressing/sacrificial nature of the ending, either. As I've already made perfectly clear, I came into this game expecting sacrifice. When Mordin did it, it was beautiful. When Thane did it, it was beautiful. Even Verner. Stupid, misguided, idiotic Verner. Even his ridiculous sacrifice had meaning, relevance, coherence, and offered satisfaction.

No, it's not the sacrifice I have a problem with. It's the utter lack of coherence and respect for the five years of literary gold that have already been established in this franchise. We spent three games preparing to fight these reapers. I spent hours upon hours doing every side quest, picking up every war asset, maxing out my galactic readiness so that when the time came, the army I had built could make a stand, and show these Reapers that we won't go down without a fight.

In ME1, we did the impossible when we killed Sovereign. In ME2, we began to see that the Reapers aren't as immortal as they claim to be: that even they have basic needs, exploitable weaknesses. In ME3, we saw the Reapers die. We saw one get taken down by an overgrown worm. We saw one die with a few coordinated orbital bombardments. We saw several ripped apart by standard space combat. In ME1, it took three alliance fleets to kill the "invincible" Sovereign. By the end of ME3, I had assembled a galactic armada fifty times more powerful than that, and a thousand times more prepared. I never expected the fight to be easy, but I proved that we wouldn't go down without a fight, that there is always hope in unity. That's the theme we've been given for the past five years: there is hope and strength through unity. That if we work together, we can achieve the impossible.

And then we're supposed to believe that the fate of the galaxy comes down to some completely unexplained starchild asking Shepard what his favorite color is? That the army we built was all for nothing? That the squad whose loyalty we fought so hard for was all for nothing? That in the end, none of it mattered at all?

It's a poetic notion, but this isn't the place for poetry. It's one thing to rattle prose nihilistic over the course of a movie or ballad, where the audience is a passive observer, learning a lesson from the suffering and futility of a character, but that's not what Mass Effect is. Mass Effect has always been about making the player the true hero. If you really want us to all feel like we spent the past five years dumping time, energy, and emotional investment into this game just to tell us that nothing really matters, you have signed your own death certificate. Nobody pays hundreds of dollars and hours to be reminded how bleak, empty, and depressing the world can be, to be told that nothing we do matters, to be told that all of our greatest accomplishments, all of our faith, all of our work, all of our unity is for nothing.

No. It simply cannot be this bleak. I refuse to believe Bioware is really doing this. The ending of ME1 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won. The ending of ME2 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won.

Taken at face value, the end of ME3 throws every single thing we've done in the past five years into the wind, and makes the player watch from a distance as the entire galaxy is thrown into a technological dark age and a stellar extinction. Why would we care about a universe that no longer exists? We should we invest any more time or money into a world that will never be what we came to know and love?

Even if the ending is retconned, it doesn't make things better. Just knowing that the starchild was our real foe the entire time is so utterly mindless, contrived, and irrelevant to what we experienced in ME1 and ME2 that it cannot be forgiven. If that really is the truth, then Mass Effect simply isn't what we thought it was. And frankly, if this is what Mass Effect was supposed to be all along, I want no part of it. It's a useless, trite, overplayed cliche, so far beneath the praise I once gave this franchise that it hurts to think about.

No. There is no way to save this franchise without giving us the only explanation that makes sense. You know what it is. It was the plan all along. Too much evidence to not be true. Too many people reaching the same conclusions independently.

The indoctrination theory doesn't just save this franchise: it elevates it to one of the most powerful and compelling storytelling experiences I've ever had in my life. The fact that you managed to do more than indoctrinate Shepard - you managed to indoctrinate the players themselves - is astonishing. If that really was the end game, here, then you have won my gaming soul. But if that's true, then I'm still waiting for the rest of this story, the final chapter of Shepard's heroic journey. I paid to finish the fight, and if the indoctrination theory is true, it's not over yet.

And if it's not, then I just don't even care. I have been betrayed, and it's time for me to let go of the denial, the anger, the bargaining, and start working through the depression and emptiness until I can just move on. You can't keep teasing us like this. This must have seemed like a great plan at the time, but it has cost too much. These people believed in you. I believed in you.

Just make it right.


Seconded. Wholeheartedly and without reservation. I fought to save the galaxy over 150 hours of gameplay, shaping a narrative that gave life and intrigue and emotion and love and loss and hope and pain to an experience I once could not rave enough about when debating modern literature and how video games contribute to it. 

Now I feel the bar has been flunk into the street, in a gutter so dirty and overused I can barely look at it.

I did not endure multiple playthroughs of multiple decision paths in each game in order to finish one in ME3 and discover that the end is a strange combination of BSG's "AI Gods" mixed with Frank Herbert's kwisatz haderach and thrown into a blender with mescaline. Nothing about the Godchild ending made sense, unless he was an indoctrination induced hallucination, or the Citadel is itself another kind of Reaper/AI and it is ALSO trying to trick me. But what? The Reapers are all just the drone harvesters of a some child-like "god in the machine"? That diminishes the enemy we fought. They were independent, alive, aware. To suddenly relegate them to the equivalent of an intergalactic Roomba for organic civilizations makes the entire experience feel hollow and trite.

And my choices, if choices they really were in the end, are to what? Embrace control, following TIM's path, become like Saren and create a new synthesis through destruction (BOTH Reaper ideals, according to Sovereign and Harbinger), or destroy everything (which is also a Reaper ideal) and in doing any of these I become responsible for ending all galactic civilization? No, thank you. I will not accept that. It is beneath your skill as writers, and beneath the dignity of the stories you helped us to create, together. 

You wanted to leave us with vague and unfocused endings and give us something to talk about. I understand that. I really do. You want this to be talked about, and debated at every level. In that you have succeeded. At what cost, I wonder? Taking the cliche'd way out that many anime stories take in their metaphysical mecha sagas is not what we expected of a story that has been, to date, rooted in some semblance of causality and realism. Choice and consequence has ever been at the heart of the franchise. When we made choices, we knew that invariably we would see the fruits of those choices. Now you show us that not only is cosmicism alive and well by making all of our choices leading to that moment utterly meaningless, you give us the ultimate piece of Dadaist art by suddenly migrating the Normandy to superluminal flight through the relays, yet it survives a crash on a habitable world where, apparently, it is now repopulated by Joker and....who? Who tells this story? And why would the Normandy, already planetside or engaged in fighting the Reapers, have left the conflict anyway? These are not questions I will accept "because we say so" as an answer to. Joker stood up and saluted me before I disembarked, despite the pain it caused him. We traded barbs, and a certain bond that only people who face death together can. That whole ending made no sense, none at all. Because when it comes right down to it, Joker would NEVER run from this fight. Win or die - that was what it came down to, whether it was Paragon or Renegade ot some muddle in between. We fought for this to be the end, and as writers you have denied us closure of any kind. Instead you took the beautiful sandcastle we made in your sandbox, painstakingly crafted over a period of years, and pushed us down into it. That was the emotional response I took away from that ending. Not awe. Not dwelling on my smallness in the cosmos, and the fear that comes with wrestling with the idea of our contemptible existence in the vastness of space. I felt as though as bully had taken a thing I loved and visited humilitation and disdain upon me for investing my time. And for what? To give you a good debate? Tell me, as writers do you have peer review? How did this slip past it? And if not, who may we thank for this feeling of hollowness at the end? I do not say completion or victory, because we have neither.

We have come so far with you. We lived and died with every story. We bought your created works, we reveled in the world you allowed us to glimpse. You set a standard that other games and even other authors and artists can only hope to match. Your fans deserve better. They - we - deserve the same respect and love that we invested in your work. Even a headnod in that direction would solve this. Please. For us. Don't let it be this way. Fix it.

#2958
MacabreMilkman

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Lumenadducere wrote...

So, on topic...

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but Liara's time capsule project really blew me away. It was a great reminder of just how bleak this game is. I think a lot of us are used to video game stories in the sense that we play the protagonist, and the protagonist will win - maybe through sacrifice, but the Big Bad is always beaten one way or another.

Given the story, though, the chances of success are highly unlikely. The cycle has been going on for a very, very long time, and so much of the dialog from both random NPCs and from teammates and crew members reflects this. ME3 is a dark game, but not in the ludicrous grimdark way that so many other games try to go for. It's dark simply due to its situation, and the dialog is actually written really well. It fits into the established world and reflects what seem like what would be genuine reactions to those events.

The time capsule encompasses that beautifully. It's a stark and frankly sad reminder that things likely aren't going to work out. That the galaxy's best contribution to stopping the Reapers may just be providing a warning to whoever comes along the next cycle. That sometimes all you can really take are the little moments with close friends, and when you're faced with a horrible fate and insurmountable odds, those moments become all the more important. The camaraderie and the brief hope displayed in that scene - despite its reality check - was wonderful and is one of my favorite moments in gaming.

Other memorable moments are both Garrus and Liara's goodbye conversations (they really seem to have gotten the best companion dialog, with Tali being 3rd. The Virmire Survivor seems to get the short end of the stick, here, with Ashley perhaps being the worst off. Disappointed by that) - a wonderful and fitting goodbye that seemed to fit their characters well.

And of course, Mordin's sacrifice. Even on my Renegade Shepard I wasn't able to take the interrupt, and I'm glad I didn't. His "someone else might have gotten it wrong" line took on a slightly different meaning that tied in well with the genophage discussions in ME2.

Honestly, the game is full of great moments like that, and I truly think it's some of BioWare's finest work yet. The music is phenomenal as well, and ties in amazingly well with said moments. Yes, the endings are all sorts of bad for several reasons, but until that point? Phenomenal job. All of that talk about "emotionally engaging/compelling experiences" and you finally managed to get a few lumps in my throat - something that had yet to happen in my gaming experience. Granted, some of it was predictable and a lot of it relied on plot contrivances that logically didn't make a lot of sense (let's just stand here and watch Thane fight), but even as I was going "Wait, really? You've got to be kidding" I was enjoying the ride. The good outweighs the bad by a large margin, and in the end I guess I can't ask for much more than that.

...although expanding the ending would be nice. ;-p

I agree. In no other game did I ever feel a sense of dread the same way ME3 did. It made me unsure if victory was even assured. I would have loved in ending in which the Reapers win, despite our valient efforts. It would make winning that much more satisfying, a la Heavy Rain.

#2959
cinderburster

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Then please, why don't you dismount from that high-horse of yours and explain it to us peons?

Why is my entire crew on the Normandy when they were with me on Earth 5 minutes ago? How did Joker walk away from a FTL ship-to-planet collision? If the relay exploding tore the Normandy to pieces, why didn't it hurt anything on Earth? Who created the StarChild? 


I still do not get why people keep implying everyone was on the Normandy... I completed it and I did not see everyone there at all, not even close.


It's not even an issue of everyone being on the Normandy.  It's an issue of characters who were clearly on Earth with Shepard, who would not have had either the forewarning or the shuttles to get back to the Normandy, stepping out onto the "tropical paradise" planet it crashed on.

That flies in the face of logic with no explanation.

#2960
Omnike

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Himmelstor wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Someone gets it. THIS is what I'm trying to say. Don't say everything sucked just because the ending did.

We are not.
The consenses among the dissatisfied is that the ending was wrong enough to constitute a change.
We don't do this because we think the game is bad.
We do this because the rest of the game was so goddamned good!


Yeah, I've been firm in telling everyone to play through all three. Hell, my friend just bought an Xbox and all three games, I didn't tell him to stop. I've said before in this thread that the game was good right up until the ending. The ending robbed us of everything that was good. Every enjoyable experience added up to nothing in the end. Hence the outcry.

#2961
Dragoonlordz

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zegota wrote...

Why do you argue this? You are satisfied, correct?  What does it matter what we want? You got what you wanted. Do you fear losing the ending you were satisfied with?



Yes. But more importantly, I feel like if Bioware caves on this bull****, it essentially means there's no such thing as art in video games anymore. Basically, there's no need for writers. Just put a call out in the forums -- "HEY GUYS, WHAT CHOO WANT TO HAPPEN IN THE END?" -- and go with the top 3 voted endings. That's absolutely what this community wants, and it's shameful. It's singlehandedly killing the concept of storytelling in a video game, and means it's incredibly unlikely any company -- especially Bioware -- is going to bother making an epic trilogy, or even a story focused game, anytime in the near future. Why would they? They get their game lambasted on review sites, promises of everlasting boycotts, and for what? They could have easily made Call of Duty: Space Warfare and made just as much money.

That's the eventual outcome of this. The David Jaffes of the world -- who say video games are fundamentally ill-suited to tell stories -- win. We get the shell of a conflict just as a backdrop so we can shoot Russians or Germans or whichever nationality fits into the next Modern Warfare.

Congratulations.


On this element I find it ironic personally.

Back when they gave the fanbase freedom and choose a femshep a huge amount of people complained that it took away from their artistic integrity and that fans should not be allowed to decide instead make Bioware choose. Now they want the opposite and want that control and freedom back because they are angry or upset over another element. I'm not being mean to anyone in particular I just find it ironic thats all.

#2962
zegota

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jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Why is my entire crew on the Normandy when they were with me on Earth 5 minutes ago? How did Joker walk away from a FTL ship-to-planet collision? If the relay exploding tore the Normandy to pieces, why didn't it hurt anything on Earth? Who created the StarChild? 


Jeez, some hardcore fan you are. Everyone knows Joker got leg upgrades in ME2 ;-)

But seriously, you'll never get an answer to that last question. Never. If the Star Child weren't there, you'd just be asking who made the Reapers. You might as well demand that Mass Effect explain the creation of the universe.

#2963
Helmchen2010

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I simply cannot touch Mass Effect 3 anymore, or any of the games for that matter. The franchise effectively died for me. There is absolutely no closure in ME3, absolutely no rewarding way to see how even basic decisions played out, because Bioware decided that "ambiguity" was the route to take here.

Sorry, but the three endings don't offer ambiguity, they offer a negation and perversion of the essence of the Mass Effect games. Well done.

#2964
jeweledleah

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Then please, why don't you dismount from that high-horse of yours and explain it to us peons?

Why is my entire crew on the Normandy when they were with me on Earth 5 minutes ago? How did Joker walk away from a FTL ship-to-planet collision? If the relay exploding tore the Normandy to pieces, why didn't it hurt anything on Earth? Who created the StarChild? 


I still do not get why people keep implying everyone was on the Normandy... I completed it and I did not see everyone there at all, not even close.


the 3 people that come out of the Normandy are Joker, your LI and either EDi for merge/control or whatever other squadmate you were closest to for destroy.  even if you had your LI with you on that final run to the beam?  they are still on the Normandy.  since different people picked different LI's and were close to different squadmates, its logical to assume that Joker somehow managed to pick them all up.

#2965
Trisskit

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Himmelstor wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Someone gets it. THIS is what I'm trying to say. Don't say everything sucked just because the ending did.

We are not.
The consenses among the dissatisfied is that the ending was wrong enough to constitute a change.
We don't do this because we think the game is bad.
>>>We do this because the rest of the game was so goddamned good!<<<


Exactly. If the game as a whole sucked, no one would care. It's because people are so attached to the universe and characters that we aren't satisfied with an ending we feel doesn't befit the high quality of the rest of the trilogy.

#2966
BULLETWASTER

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To anyone that says it is Bioware's story they can do whatever they want. That's all well and good but they LIED about the ending. I said this in a previous post but I guess no one read it. They said our decisions would make unique endings, and all we got was one ending with slight variations. We bought the game with the idea that the endings would be radically different and they weren't that's why people are demanding a fix.

#2967
cinderburster

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

zegota wrote...

Why do you argue this? You are satisfied, correct?  What does it matter what we want? You got what you wanted. Do you fear losing the ending you were satisfied with?



Yes. But more importantly, I feel like if Bioware caves on this bull****, it essentially means there's no such thing as art in video games anymore. Basically, there's no need for writers. Just put a call out in the forums -- "HEY GUYS, WHAT CHOO WANT TO HAPPEN IN THE END?" -- and go with the top 3 voted endings. That's absolutely what this community wants, and it's shameful. It's singlehandedly killing the concept of storytelling in a video game, and means it's incredibly unlikely any company -- especially Bioware -- is going to bother making an epic trilogy, or even a story focused game, anytime in the near future. Why would they? They get their game lambasted on review sites, promises of everlasting boycotts, and for what? They could have easily made Call of Duty: Space Warfare and made just as much money.

That's the eventual outcome of this. The David Jaffes of the world -- who say video games are fundamentally ill-suited to tell stories -- win. We get the shell of a conflict just as a backdrop so we can shoot Russians or Germans or whichever nationality fits into the next Modern Warfare.

Congratulations.


On this element I find it ironic personally.

Back when they gave the fanbase freedom and choose a femshep a huge amount of people complained that it took away from their artistic integrity and that fans should not be allowed to decide instead make Bioware choose. Now they want the opposite and want that control and freedom back because they are angry or upset over another element. I'm not being mean to anyone in particular I just find it ironic thats all.


You're both missing the point.  Most of us aren't trying to dictate what Bioware should do, we're simply trying to let them know that something is wrong.

Whether they change it or not is, in the end, up to them.

If they do, maybe a small faction would like a poll, but they are NOT the majority.  I believe most of us would be content with a few more answers.

Modifié par cinderburster, 16 mars 2012 - 06:03 .


#2968
jeweledleah

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and for the love of god. people who keep saying that caving in and making changes equal there's no art anymore - you are not artists are you? you have no clue about art history, how commercial art works, the fact that so-called artistic integrity is a 20tieth century concept and every single great artist that we look up to nowadays - worked on commission and DID make changes as per client's requests.

when you have a piece of art that is supposed to be collaborative - and this is what Mass Effect is, collaborative art, since we are given an opportunity by bioware to create our own stories, our own characters... feedback and incorporating it - is crucial. and bioware KNOWS IT. They even said as much in multiple interviews.

#2969
DieHigh2012

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Himmelstor wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Don't twist my words.

My logic is, because you're going to die one day, you make the most of each day, you do as much good as you can. And when you're knocking on death's door, you'll know that even though the ending sucked (you're dead, after all), the part in between was good.

You don't say, "Oh no, dying sucks so that makes everything in life I did suck!"

Don't twist our meanings.  We aren't necessarily talking about death or that being the end. We are saying the ending of a well thought out piece of fiction deserves more than this.
Agree or disagree. Hell's Bells, be neutral.
Do not interpret us so shallow and yourself so vast.


It's an analogy.

People in this thread saying: Ending sucked so everything about the series sucks is an appropriate anology to what I just said.


I can't play any of the ME games anymore, It did ruin it for me. The 3 other Sheps and the one I was planning to take through all 3 back to back will never have to go through that ending. That much is certain.

I also will not buy a Bioware game right out the gate ever again. I might buy it used, but that's it.

#2970
Himmelstor

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zegota wrote...

Why do you argue this? You are satisfied, correct?  What does it matter what we want? You got what you wanted. Do you fear losing the ending you were satisfied with?



Yes. But more importantly, I feel like if Bioware caves on this bull****, it essentially means there's no such thing as art in video games anymore. Basically, there's no need for writers. Just put a call out in the forums -- "HEY GUYS, WHAT CHOO WANT TO HAPPEN IN THE END?" -- and go with the top 3 voted endings. That's absolutely what this community wants, and it's shameful. It's singlehandedly killing the concept of storytelling in a video game, and means it's incredibly unlikely any company -- especially Bioware -- is going to bother making an epic trilogy, or even a story focused game, anytime in the near future. Why would they? They get their game lambasted on review sites, promises of everlasting boycotts, and for what? They could have easily made Call of Duty: Space Warfare and made just as much money.

That's the eventual outcome of this. The David Jaffes of the world -- who say video games are fundamentally ill-suited to tell stories -- win. We get the shell of a conflict just as a backdrop so we can shoot Russians or Germans or whichever nationality fits into the next Modern Warfare.

Congratulations.

No.

I was once known as the Doctor for posting as Mordin Solus would speak. I would prefer Mordin live while curing the genophage - but it was appropriate and well-handled. I approved, applauded, hell I saluted the freaking television it was so well done. I would still prefer Mordin Solus live. But I will never ask for that change.

I was (suppose I still am) a diehard Talimancer.  I wanted an ending where I could see the house on Rannoch, and a happily ever after with the character I'd grown so attached to. But if the ending called for Shepard to die, handled appropriately, I would have been fine with it.

We are not asking for our own personal ending to be put in the game. (There are too many of us for that even if that was what we wanted. Haha.)

We argue the ending because there are flaws in the argument that leads to the final sacrifice, flaws in characterization established by Bioware.
We complain because we believe they did not follow their own established rules.

Modifié par Himmelstor, 16 mars 2012 - 06:06 .


#2971
jkflipflopDAO

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zegota wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Why is my entire crew on the Normandy when they were with me on Earth 5 minutes ago? How did Joker walk away from a FTL ship-to-planet collision? If the relay exploding tore the Normandy to pieces, why didn't it hurt anything on Earth? Who created the StarChild? 


Jeez, some hardcore fan you are. Everyone knows Joker got leg upgrades in ME2 ;-)

But seriously, you'll never get an answer to that last question. Never. If the Star Child weren't there, you'd just be asking who made the Reapers. You might as well demand that Mass Effect explain the creation of the universe.

Oh I see, you are just as clueless as the rest of us. Got it.

#2972
Dragoonlordz

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jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Then please, why don't you dismount from that high-horse of yours and explain it to us peons?

Why is my entire crew on the Normandy when they were with me on Earth 5 minutes ago? How did Joker walk away from a FTL ship-to-planet collision? If the relay exploding tore the Normandy to pieces, why didn't it hurt anything on Earth? Who created the StarChild? 


I still do not get why people keep implying everyone was on the Normandy... I completed it and I did not see everyone there at all, not even close.

Liara was with me on Earth riding in the APC to the transporter beam. Then she's climbing off the crashed Normandy with Joker.  They couldn't have sent a shuttle in to pick them up with the Reapers standing right there. How did she get from the streets of London to the Normandy?


Well the Reaper did chase after something when you woke up, why could what he chased after not be a shuttle that picked them up? Because he was present and because you think he would of hit the shuttle or could it be the fact your Shepard was unconscious for who knows how long there was plenty of time for the shuttle to land elsewhere and your team to reach it prior to waking up? Couldn't your team also been knocked away from your position by the blast and instead you woke up first and did not see them so went into the beam, you saw the Reaper leave prior so a shuttle could of landed and your team woke up after then. If you recall you also pass out on after going through the beam so again time becomes and unknown element and there is potentially time for them to have boarded the shuttle since the Reaper is already gone too after they woke up.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 16 mars 2012 - 06:06 .


#2973
zegota

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cinderburster wrote...

You're both missing the point.  Most of us aren't trying to dictate what Bioware should do, we're simply trying to let them know that something is wrong.

Whether they change it or not is, in the end, up to them.

If they do, maybe a small segment would like a poll, but they are NOT the majority.  I believe most of us would be content with a few more answers.


First of all, saying the ending is objectively wrong is the same as telling Bioware what to do.

And second of all -- are you joking? A pretty strong segment of the forum is outright saying that endorsing the idiotic indoctrination theory is the ONLY WAY to "fix" the game, and that if they don't release some free DLC saying "Lol it was all a dream guys shepard is okay <3" then BIOWARE IS DEAD TO MEEEE. Hell, there's a post literally a few posts up for yours that says exactly that. That the indoctrination is the CORRECT ENDING and it's what Bioware MUST IMPLEMENT.

#2974
Guest_EternalAmbiguity_*

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Himmelstor wrote...

We are not.
The consenses among the dissatisfied is that the ending was wrong enough to constitute a change.
We don't do this because we think the game is bad.
We do this because the rest of the game was so goddamned good!


This is the post I was responding to initially that made me say that:

devSin wrote...

The ending makes it pretty irrelevant which moments are favorites. Does it really matter if they were good or great if I never have any desire to play through them again?


That's pretty much what I was saying.

#2975
zegota

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Himmelstor wrote...
We complain because we believe they did not follow their own established rules.


Complaining that it sucked is a time-honored tradition. Demanding it be changed -- OR ELSE!!! -- is not.