23455 réponses à ce sujet

[zegota]

ArmyKnifeX wrote...
My apologies. I think it's dealing with that flamer Zegota.

[Flyprdu]

zegota wrote...

You don't understand the definition of the word "art," apparently. Stories are art. Books are art. Movies are art. And actually, your statement that "bad art is still bad art" actually supports me. You're right. Bad art is still art. And art doesn't change based on the whims of some vocal group. I happen to dislike Picasso. That doesn't mean I think Picasso should have painted something different. He painted what he painted, and I didn't like it. So be it.

There's no mistake to be fixed here. There's no bug to be patched. Bioware didn't make a mistake. They made the ending(s) they wanted to make, and you happened not to like them. Tough cookies. There are a lot of movies I don't like. That doesn't mean I consider them "mistakes" to be fixed.

You know what's funny...  in this modern day era of media,  art is changeable.  It's moldable, it's reactive, more so today than ever in the history of mankind.  This is actually a phenominal social experiment happening right now:  Can feedback from customers sway a manufacturer to revise their product?

It happens all the time.  Customer feedback is part of how companies improve their products.  If they improve, then they'll sell more.   It's a win-win.  There's no way that BioWare wants to disenfranchise 80% of their fans over a poorly written ending...  because in reality, it's not art.  It's a product.  It's a story written for us, their fans, to enjoy.   And if there's a way that the company can revise the story to make it more enjoyable to more people -- it's a winning proposition for everyone.

It's happened before with movies.  Case in point.  Blade Runner has been revised so many times that I'm not sure how many versions are out there.   Sir Arthur Conan Doyle killed Sherlock Holmes, and then brought him back after fans raged.   The idea that art is untouchable is pure nonsense...  and if a company is interested in pleasing its fans, which I assume they are, then they should use the tools of 2012 to make a difference.

[Himmelstor]

Himmelstor wrote...

zegota wrote...

Himmelstor wrote...
Why do you argue this? You are satisfied, correct?  What does it matter what we want? You got what you wanted. Do you fear losing the ending you were satisfied with?

Yes. But more importantly, I feel like if Bioware caves on this bull****, it essentially means there's no such thing as art in video games anymore. Basically, there's no need for writers. Just put a call out in the forums -- "HEY GUYS, WHAT CHOO WANT TO HAPPEN IN THE END?" -- and go with the top 3 voted endings. That's absolutely what this community wants, and it's shameful. It's singlehandedly killing the concept of storytelling in a video game, and means it's incredibly unlikely any company -- especially Bioware -- is going to bother making an epic trilogy, or even a story focused game, anytime in the near future. Why would they? They get their game lambasted on review sites, promises of everlasting boycotts, and for what? They could have easily made Call of Duty: Space Warfare and made just as much money.

That's the eventual outcome of this. The David Jaffes of the world -- who say video games are fundamentally ill-suited to tell stories -- win. We get the shell of a conflict just as a backdrop so we can shoot Russians or Germans or whichever nationality fits into the next Modern Warfare.

Congratulations.

No.

I was once known as the Doctor for posting as Mordin Solus would speak. I would prefer Mordin live while curing the genophage - but it was appropriate and well-handled. I approved, applauded, hell I saluted the freaking television it was so well done. I would still prefer Mordin Solus live. But I will never ask for that change.

I was (suppose I still am) a diehard Talimancer.  I wanted an ending where I could see the house on Rannoch, and a happily ever after with the character I'd grown so attached to. But if the ending called for Shepard to die, handled appropriately, I would have been fine with it.

We are not asking for our own personal ending to be put in the game. (There are too many of us for that even if that was what we wanted. Haha.)

We argue the ending because there are flaws in the argument that leads to the final sacrifice, flaws in characterization established by Bioware.
We complain because we believe they did not follow their own established rules.

zegota, if you would please reply to this one. After I hear that, I'll head to bed and you'll have one less voice speaking against you.

[cinderburster]

zegota wrote...

cinderburster wrote...

zegota wrote...

cinderburster wrote...

You're both missing the point.  Most of us aren't trying to dictate what Bioware should do, we're simply trying to let them know that something is wrong.

Whether they change it or not is, in the end, up to them.

If they do, maybe a small segment would like a poll, but they are NOT the majority.  I believe most of us would be content with a few more answers.

First of all, saying the ending is objectively wrong is the same as telling Bioware what to do.

And second of all -- are you joking? A pretty strong segment of the forum is outright saying that endorsing the idiotic indoctrination theory is the ONLY WAY to "fix" the game, and that if they don't release some free DLC saying "Lol it was all a dream guys shepard is okay <3" then BIOWARE IS DEAD TO MEEEE. Hell, there's a post literally a few posts up for yours that says exactly that. That the indoctrination is the CORRECT ENDING and it's what Bioware MUST IMPLEMENT.

Okay.  HERE, this is what I meant to say previously: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10022779

All of this is why the endings are an example of bad writing.  If I purchased a novel that had an ending like this?  After searching for the chapter I apparently somehow skipped, I would tell my friends not to bother.

There you go.  Storytelling is paramount to me in games, and to see such a fantastic story capped off in such a ham-fisted way is incredibly sad.

And as much as I disagree with you, that's fine. Telling your friends not to buy the novel/game, sure, go ahead.

Would you, however, organize a petition and swarm the author's message board in an attempt to make her change the ending, free-of-charge, to your preferred conclusion?

I'm going to take that as general "you" and not one specifically directed at me, since I don't hold that they necessarily need to change the endings, and I certainly wouldn't expect it to be free if they did.  I only want answers to the questions the endings raised.

That being said:

If I had paid up to $90 for the last book in a series, which was advertised as being epic and containing a resolution which was not given?

Yes, I would.  I wouldn't ask them to change what was written, but I would feel justified in requesting answers, even if they came in the form of a bullet-pointed blog post.

I'm glad that you enjoyed the endings, I really am.  They weren't enough for me.  I am going to continue to make noise about wanting answers until Bioware definitively states whether or not any will be forthcoming.

Modifié par cinderburster, 16 mars 2012 - 06:50 .

[GM Jaken]

PKchu wrote...

Idea: They could give the DLC away for free to those with the online pass. So buying the online pass as a used customer still nets them money and sells DLC.

Why on Earth would they do that when they can make $10 more?

What are you, a commie?

[Omnike]

zegota wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

zegota wrote...

ArmyKnifeX wrote...

Did you know Sherlock Holmes died? Yes, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle killed him. The public was outraged. Then he retconned it and brought him back. Or what about any and all fan-based retcons in the comic book industry?

You mean the comic book retcons that are routinely derided as hacking away at the intergrity of the storytelling medium? Those retcons? Yes. I'm aware.

And yes, I'm aware Doyle revived Sherlock Holmes so he could continue to make money. It was unfortunate he had to do it then, and it's unfortunate Bioware is going to have to do it now.

So your point then is art is only art if it's locked into one unchanging state after completion? Because that's kind of silly.

My argument is that it ceases to be art when the artist paints something, waits for a bunch of people to come in and tell him how he should change it, and then quickly slaps that up there for them.

And I think the argument that Mass Effect is art is irrelevant to the fact that the ending sucked.

[gearseffect]

Epic Fail here. It seems to be the same old deflecting the issue and acting like your gonna get around to taking care of it. Until I see concert proof and some official FREE alternate endings DLC Whenever Someone from BW says something It'll be like their talking out their @ss.
Sorry actions speak louder than words and the past actions are hard to get over when the words behind them lied or danced around the issues.

[jkflipflopDAO]

zegota wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

zegota wrote...

ArmyKnifeX wrote...

Did you know Sherlock Holmes died? Yes, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle killed him. The public was outraged. Then he retconned it and brought him back. Or what about any and all fan-based retcons in the comic book industry?

You mean the comic book retcons that are routinely derided as hacking away at the intergrity of the storytelling medium? Those retcons? Yes. I'm aware.

And yes, I'm aware Doyle revived Sherlock Holmes so he could continue to make money. It was unfortunate he had to do it then, and it's unfortunate Bioware is going to have to do it now.

So your point then is art is only art if it's locked into one unchanging state after completion? Because that's kind of silly.

My argument is that it ceases to be art when the artist paints something, waits for a bunch of people to come in and tell him how he should change it, and then quickly slaps that up there for them.

Sooooo, your point then is art is only art if it's locked into one unchanging state after completion? Because that's still kind of silly.

[zegota]

ArmyKnifeX wrote...

That's a damn silly argument. Especially because that's exactly how mainstream video games are created. That bunch of people are called the Producers, Directors, and lead Xs of their departments.

Well, my whole argument was revolving around the idea that Ebert might be right about video games not being art. So maybe that's more evidence!

But of course, you misunderstood what I meant, which is fair, because I wasn't clear. Collaborating to make art is one thing -- simply caving to majority rule and creating whatever 50+% of the people decide on is something altogether different.

[D4rkSektor]

CerberusMolecularNetwork wrote...

Bioware told us that they care about their fans, customers. I don't want to complain about why the endings are bad, or good. You can find plenty of explanations out there on the internet.

So I just want to share my thoughts about what I would consider a good ending for Mass Effect 3. (I am not a native speaker. If my english is weird sometimes, sorry )

Well, allow me to write it down. Just ideas. The game what Bioware created is awesome! Every single game what they created in the last decade is amazing! Ah you know what I just spit it out: MASS EFFECT 3 is their f*cking MASTERPIECE! If they decide not to change the ending, than it remains the same MASTERPIECE in my eyes.

But they asked our opinion regarding the ending so here is mine:

I think Mass Effect 3 need some vastly different and distinct endings.
So, I think at the END of the trilogy the game doesn't need that space kid. It's just destroys the lore of the Reapers exsistence entirely. So cut out everything after Anderson dies.
Oh yes, and that means Shepard doesn't have to choose anything at the end. That's the point!!!

Why? Because, our earlier choices will determine the actually ending of our saga. And that's it. No space kid, no last decisions. Just what Shep did in the last couple of hours. And YES If you want to see the other endings of Mass Effect 3 you have to play the game again, with a different Shepard. Not just quick load, and let's see the other one.. No. no.nonono... That would be too easy. You already made your choices, just like in the end of Mass Effect 2, here comes what happens next:

1, VERY BAD ending: What you guys at Bioware created. Minor tweaks of course would be necessary, but that shouldn't be a problem. First of all, cut out the Joker sequence. No need for that. Shepard dies alongside Anderson. The Citadel will blow up, the Reapers will die, Earth will be incinerated. And because every single Mass Relay in the galaxy is going to be destroyed, that means one thing. Every solar system, every species in the known universe is going to be completely destroyed. That's it. THE VERY BEST BAD ENDING.

2, BAD ending: Same scene. Shepard dies alongside Anderson. But the Citadel and every Mass relay will be intact. Of course the Reaper army will destroy the entire galactical armada, and they will finish what they started. The cyle of our destruction will continue. New scene: 50.000 years later: A new alien species discovers the memory box what Liara created. And when the Shepard VI tries to warn them about the Reapers, in that moment, they hear that terrible sound. They look up to the sky, but it's too late, the Reapers are already returned! (Admit it, it's a bad ending, but it's god damn epic!)

3, GOOD Ending: This is the hardest part. Because this is when you have to show what we did in the game mattered. In this ending Shepard will survive the war or not. And to survive the war, he/she needs two criteria. 1, High enough Paragon or Renegade score, and high enough EMS score. If the Paragon and Renegade scores are not high enough, he/she dies, but the good ending still plays if the EMS score is high enough. So here are the variations:

3/A: Shepard is dead. Now you have to show what he/she has accomplished. The major decisions are the most important.
1, Krogan-Turian conflict: cured Genophage, or not (peace or war)
2, Quarian - Geth conflict: peace, Geth survived, Quarian survived
3, Rebuilt Citadel, rebuilt Thessia
4, the crew! some minor things about what happened with them, Liara wrote a book about the protheans, Tali built a new home on Rannoch, James earned the N7 title, etc.... (the guys at Bioware know this better than me. I trust them, I always will!)

3/B: Shepard is alive. The first 4 are the same. And we have a 5th one!
5, Shep and his/her Love interest! Yes this is probably the hardest part. Because there are so many of them. That makes the story more exicting and adds replayability to it!

So there it is! My ideas, and opinion about what I consider a great, satisfying, most of all worthy ending of Mass effect 3.

Secret ending for New Game Plus: If Shep is alive: High enough paragon, or high enough Renegade score will determine his/her life after the war.
1, high enough Renegade score: He/She is a new Admiral in the Alliance fleet!
(Imagine the fans reaction... Yeah that's what I am talking about!)
2, high enough Paragon score: He/she is the new human represantative in the Citadel council!
(again... imagine the fans reaction! .... Yeah that's what I am talking about!)
Pure epicness, pure awesomeness!

I just wrote this down because Bioware doesn't deserve our hatred. They need our support, and new ideas! They worked hard to create an awesome experience. And I think they just did that.

I more or less agree with these endings. Could use a bit more emphasis on LI, but other than that, great work. ME3 needs to have the option for a happy ending.

[Pyewacket]

Billabong2011 wrote...

"Yes, we are listening."
No you're not.

Oh I think they're listening, but just because they're listening doesn't mean they CARE. 

[Reptilian Rob]

To my fellow Mass Effect fans, I think it's time we just accept the endings...

They arn't going to change, I think Bioware has made it very clear in that respect. Everyone has to listen eventually, even if it hurts sometimes...

I'm not saying loose hope, but It's painfully obvious nothing is going to come out of it. Trust me when I say it's hard for me to accept, the endings crushed me. But I think it's time to move on...

[zegota]

Himmelstor wrote...
zegota, if you would please reply to this one. After I hear that, I'll head to bed and you'll have one less voice speaking against you.

Hmm, I thought I had, actually. Anyway, when it comes down to it, there's no problem with people hating the ending. It's actually a good thing. I think people have a fundamental right to complain -- I mean, it would be pretty boring if we all liked the same things. And I've gotten a little angry talking about the actual ending because of my anger at the petition topic, so I apologize -- it's separate. I like the ending, but if it didn't work for you, that's cool.

What really, really bothers me is the petitioning to get Bioware to change it. Because that essentially means you think everything should be majority rule, that, essentially, nothing that <50% of people enjoy should ever be created. And, with all the power Bioware has in the industry, that scares me. A whole lot.

[ArmyKnifeX]

zegota wrote...

ArmyKnifeX wrote...

That's a damn silly argument. Especially because that's exactly how mainstream video games are created. That bunch of people are called the Producers, Directors, and lead Xs of their departments.

Well, my whole argument was revolving around the idea that Ebert might be right about video games not being art. So maybe that's more evidence!

But of course, you misunderstood what I meant, which is fair, because I wasn't clear. Collaborating to make art is one thing -- simply caving to majority rule and creating whatever 50+% of the people decide on is something altogether different.

So wait... you were arguing before that video games are art, and that's why the ME3 ending shouldn't be changed... but now you're saying they aren't art so it's okay? I really don't follow what you're doing here.

Let me ask you something - is an author who writes Science Fiction no longer an artist if he goes back and rewrites portions of his books to make them more in line with our current undrestanding of the physical world, if he doesn't change the overall story?

[travmonster]

First time poster. I don't even lurk here very much.

ME3 has so many great moments for me, but hands down, the one that affected me the most and is my definite favorite: right after Anderson dies, Hackett calls Shepard on the comm and, even though she's sitting there beside her dead friend/father figure, bleeding out it seems, she tries to stand, tries to crawl forward. "What do you need me to do?" The voice acting in that entire scene was just outstanding.  Tears were streaming down my face as she said those words and crawled toward that console. It felt very much like a "Frodo crawling up Mount Doom" moment. That is the essence of Shepard: never give in, never give up--even if you have to crawl to move forward.

If only that didn't lead to the elevator and the kid and everything awful that came in the next few minutes.  

I'm not someone who absolutely must have a brighter ending. Shepard doesn't have to live for me to appreciate everything that Mass Effect is and has made me feel throughout the trilogy.  Squad members could die. Civilizations could die.  All that's okay by me. I rather enjoy a good tragedy.  Of course, a brighter ending wouldn't hurt my feelings, either.

Just don't give me this. Don't give me a child-god-thing thrown in at the last minute. Don't give me sudden plot holes. Don't give me the 3 "choices" my Shepard would find insulting to her intelligence. Don't destroy everything that made Mass Effect so unique.  Don't give me that heartrending, yet beautiful moment of Shepard crawling across that floor, trying to fulfill her mission despite her broken body---only to immediately punch me in the gut with that cliched deux ex machina ending.  You're supposed to be better than this. For 99.95 percent of the trilogy, you WERE better than this. 

After I finished the game (2 days ago now), I felt like I had been physically beaten.  In the previous 10-20 minutes, I had gone from "this is by far the most amazing gaming experience of my life" to "my god, why did they do that?" I was just stunned. I'm still stunned, really.  When I came online to see if I wasn't alone in my concerns, I wasn't suprised to find the uproar in full bloom.  I've been lurking a bit here, watching the outpouring of true grief, and I can relate to every one of you who feel heartbroken by how Bioware has (apparently) chosen to end Mass Effect. I relate because I'm heartbroken, too. Yes, this is "just" a video game. But it's something that's become a part of our lives. And we don't want to see it mistreated, nor do we wish to be mistreated by it.  I wanted closure. I wanted catharsis.  I received neither from an otherwise amazing, beautifully-written game.

I've been reading the different theories swirling around, and I'm crossing my fingers, hoping against hope that some DLC will continue Shepard's story after that short intake of breath.  That her mission isn't finished quite yet. That we'll get some closure for all the characters we've grown to love.  I'm impatiently awaiting some kind of official word.

But since you're "listening" Bioware...all I can say is: please, fix it.  Don't let this be how Mass Effect is remembered.  It deserves better.   And so do we.

[ArmyKnifeX]

zegota wrote...
What really, really bothers me is the petitioning to get Bioware to change it. Because that essentially means you think everything should be majority rule, that, essentially, nothing that <50% of people enjoy should ever be created. And, with all the power Bioware has in the industry, that scares me. A whole lot.

Would you be frightened if Bethesda did something similar?

[Himmelstor]

zegota wrote...

Himmelstor wrote...
zegota, if you would please reply to this one. After I hear that, I'll head to bed and you'll have one less voice speaking against you.

Hmm, I thought I had, actually. Anyway, when it comes down to it, there's no problem with people hating the ending. It's actually a good thing. I think people have a fundamental right to complain -- I mean, it would be pretty boring if we all liked the same things. And I've gotten a little angry talking about the actual ending because of my anger at the petition topic, so I apologize -- it's separate. I like the ending, but if it didn't work for you, that's cool.

What really, really bothers me is the petitioning to get Bioware to change it. Because that essentially means you think everything should be majority rule, that, essentially, nothing that <50% of people enjoy should ever be created. And, with all the power Bioware has in the industry, that scares me. A whole lot.

Did you actually read that one?

The gist of it was that we don't want to write it, we just want less holes in the plot, from our sight.

Still, I suppose you filled your end of the bargain, and I'll catch some shut-eye.

Good night.
And good music:

Modifié par Himmelstor, 16 mars 2012 - 06:45 .

[GM Jaken]

gearseffect wrote...

Epic Fail here. It seems to be the same old deflecting the issue and acting like your gonna get around to taking care of it. Until I see concert proof and some official FREE alternate endings DLC Whenever Someone from BW says something It'll be like their talking out their @ss.
Sorry actions speak louder than words and the past actions are hard to get over when the words behind them lied or danced around the issues.

Consumerism and politics.  The only way to win is to not play.  They already have your money, so where does it say they HAVE to do [blank].  The product has been bought, now its up to them to decide what's best for their business.

Sure, if we make enough noise, and say words like "boycott" and "never again" things might change.  But, honestly, when they throw down a trailer for their next big game, how many are really gonna stick to theirs guns about a game we played in '12.  Most of us will say "this time will be different" and give them more money.  And if we're dissatisfied again, well, as the saying goes "fool me once..." etc.

The question for us now is: are we going to let a video game change what we spend money on?  For you, it might be yes.  But, until BioWare feels it in their wallets, what difference does all this stance-taking really have?

If those of you that want to see the industry bend to your whims, then close your wallets.  Good luck to you.

[Necrotron]

If we accept the endings, then we likely lose all interest in Mass Effect entirely.

I know I personally do not want to do that, because up until the end it was my favorite video game series ever. But when you know the end of the drama you're participating in ends in a tragedy and a confusing unexplained mess, it kind of makes pretending to fight in the war a little less, I dunno, meaningful.

Still hoping something comes of all this hubbub.

[Pyewacket]

ArmyKnifeX wrote...

zegota wrote...
What really, really bothers me is the petitioning to get Bioware to change it. Because that essentially means you think everything should be majority rule, that, essentially, nothing that <50% of people enjoy should ever be created. And, with all the power Bioware has in the industry, that scares me. A whole lot.

Would you be frightened if Bethesda did something similar?

OIC WHAT YOU DID THERE.

[zegota]

ArmyKnifeX wrote...


So wait... you were arguing before that video games are art, and that's why the ME3 ending shouldn't be changed... but now you're saying they aren't art so it's okay? I really don't follow what you're doing here.

I'm saying that I think video games are art, but the reaction from the video game community and the inevitable caving response from Bioware is making me rethink that. If we get to the point where any story has to first be run by the "loyal fanbase" to make sure it's okay, then yeah, I'm not sure I consider that art anymore.

Let me ask you something - is an author who writes Science Fiction no longer an artist if he goes back and rewrites portions of his books to make them more in line with our current undrestanding of the physical world, if he doesn't change the overall story?

It seems fairly obvious you have an example of a Science Fiction writer who did that hiding up your sleeve. In any case, retcons in general kind of irk me. But no -- an author directed retcon is far different than a reader/viewer-directed one. See: Tolkien going back and revising The Hobbit.

And anyway, I'm not sure that's relevant here, given that Bioware changing the ending is going to change the story pretty severely. If it didn't change the story, would anyone here really be happy about it?

[Omnike]

zegota wrote...
What really, really bothers me is the petitioning to get Bioware to change it. Because that essentially means you think everything should be majority rule, that, essentially, nothing that <50% of people enjoy should ever be created. And, with all the power Bioware has in the industry, that scares me. A whole lot.

You make it sound like we're being completely unreasonable. We're not all going to get up and say "They changed the ending! CHANGE THIS ENDING TOO!" We want it changed because it just doesn't follow what they've built it up to be. They copped out. Simple as that.