23455 réponses à ce sujet

[ArmyKnifeX]

zegota wrote...
And anyway, I'm not sure that's relevant here, given that Bioware changing the ending is going to change the story pretty severely. If it didn't change the story, would anyone here really be happy about it?

You mean if Shepard died and the reapers were defeated?
As long as they did a better job of it than they currently did, I'd be happy about it.

[zegota]

ArmyKnifeX wrote...

zegota wrote...
What really, really bothers me is the petitioning to get Bioware to change it. Because that essentially means you think everything should be majority rule, that, essentially, nothing that <50% of people enjoy should ever be created. And, with all the power Bioware has in the industry, that scares me. A whole lot.

Would you be frightened if Bethesda did something similar?

Bethesda's games are not highly focused on story. Which is fine. But I, personally, like story-based games. So while I doubt Bethesda's actions really affect it much, imagining someone like Bioware essentially disappearing, or quitting with story-focused games, definitely frightens me.

[Sargaz]

my favorite moment is when i get to **** ashley williams! also ending sacked

[Necrotron]

ArmyKnifeX wrote...

zegota wrote...
What really, really bothers me is the petitioning to get Bioware to change it. Because that essentially means you think everything should be majority rule, that, essentially, nothing that <50% of people enjoy should ever be created. And, with all the power Bioware has in the industry, that scares me. A whole lot.

Would you be frightened if Bethesda did something similar?

Ooo, nice one!

Seriously, an optional alternative ending available for download would not affect that in the slightest.  It would preserve the original intention of the writers for the narrative, and provide what the majority masses are clamoring for.  Win/win

Modifié par Bathaius, 16 mars 2012 - 06:51 .

[jeweledleah]

zegota wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

zegota wrote...

ArmyKnifeX wrote...

Did you know Sherlock Holmes died? Yes, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle killed him. The public was outraged. Then he retconned it and brought him back. Or what about any and all fan-based retcons in the comic book industry?

You mean the comic book retcons that are routinely derided as hacking away at the intergrity of the storytelling medium? Those retcons? Yes. I'm aware.

And yes, I'm aware Doyle revived Sherlock Holmes so he could continue to make money. It was unfortunate he had to do it then, and it's unfortunate Bioware is going to have to do it now.

So your point then is art is only art if it's locked into one unchanging state after completion? Because that's kind of silly.

My argument is that it ceases to be art when the artist paints something, waits for a bunch of people to come in and tell him how he should change it, and then quickly slaps that up there for them.

you know very little about art, especialy commercial art, do you.

[ArmyKnifeX]

zegota wrote...
Bethesda's games are not highly focused on story.

Which is why they're pointless hack-and-slash games that don't try to offer the player any choice ever.

[zegota]

Omnike wrote...
You make it sound like we're being completely unreasonable. We're not all going to get up and say "They changed the ending! CHANGE THIS ENDING TOO!" We want it changed because it just doesn't follow what they've built it up to be. They copped out. Simple as that.

Are you kidding me? The minute Bioware announces a revised ending, nearly every single game fanbase in existence is going to start their own petition. A game company as big as Bioware completely rewriting their ending due to fan demands is big.

[jkflipflopDAO]

zegota wrote...

ArmyKnifeX wrote...


So wait... you were arguing before that video games are art, and that's why the ME3 ending shouldn't be changed... but now you're saying they aren't art so it's okay? I really don't follow what you're doing here.

I'm saying that I think video games are art, but the reaction from the video game community and the inevitable caving response from Bioware is making me rethink that. If we get to the point where any story has to first be run by the "loyal fanbase" to make sure it's okay, then yeah, I'm not sure I consider that art anymore.

Let me ask you something - is an author who writes Science Fiction no longer an artist if he goes back and rewrites portions of his books to make them more in line with our current undrestanding of the physical world, if he doesn't change the overall story?

It seems fairly obvious you have an example of a Science Fiction writer who did that hiding up your sleeve. In any case, retcons in general kind of irk me. But no -- an author directed retcon is far different than a reader/viewer-directed one. See: Tolkien going back and revising The Hobbit.

And anyway, I'm not sure that's relevant here, given that Bioware changing the ending is going to change the story pretty severely. If it didn't change the story, would anyone here really be happy about it?

How is it going to change the story? The ending has ziltch to do with the the rest of the trilogy. It's so hopelessly disconnected it's like you've sat down on the remote control by accident and changed the channel. We want an ending that actually fits with the story, not flies in the face of it.

[jla0644]

zegota wrote...

ArmyKnifeX wrote...

zegota wrote...
What really, really bothers me is the petitioning to get Bioware to change it. Because that essentially means you think everything should be majority rule, that, essentially, nothing that <50% of people enjoy should ever be created. And, with all the power Bioware has in the industry, that scares me. A whole lot.

Would you be frightened if Bethesda did something similar?

Bethesda's games are not highly focused on story. Which is fine. But I, personally, like story-based games. So while I doubt Bethesda's actions really affect it much, imagining someone like Bioware essentially disappearing, or quitting with story-focused games, definitely frightens me.

Honestly I can't imagine this would happen too often, I'm not buying the slippery slope argument here.  Not many games can create the emotional response that the ME series has.   We've all seen good games have crappy endings, but I can't recall ever seeing a reaction like this, and that's because very few games can make gamers so emotionally vested.

[zegota]

ArmyKnifeX wrote...

zegota wrote...
Bethesda's games are not highly focused on story.

Which is why they're pointless hack-and-slash games that don't try to offer the player any choice ever.

I'm not sure why you think focusing on story and offering the player choice have much to do with one another, but then, I'm kind of lost on this entire conversation thread.

[VikrantB]

I hope i don't spoil this for anyone, i think part of the ending wasn't done right. Let me explain, i personally think that it had to happen, but i think like any other choices made in the series so far, it should have been only two.... mainly paragon and renegade. That i think was the first let down by the creative team. Secondly, as many people have pointed out, there has to be an epilogue of what happened to earth, and the rest of the universe. Lastly,, i know someone pointed this out earlier, we don't know what happens to the rest of the crew. I mean what happens to the two crew members that were with me? what about the rest of them? and how in the end were they on the ship when they were on earth? This alone seems like the ending was rushed, because of the release date. Ladies and gentleman, this is a last game in a great trilogy give it the respect it deserves by ending it well.. not rushed. Thank you.

Oh my favorite part was about mordin sacrificing himself to save the Krogan. Thank you.

[Omnike]

zegota wrote...

Omnike wrote...
You make it sound like we're being completely unreasonable. We're not all going to get up and say "They changed the ending! CHANGE THIS ENDING TOO!" We want it changed because it just doesn't follow what they've built it up to be. They copped out. Simple as that.

Are you kidding me? The minute Bioware announces a revised ending, nearly every single game fanbase in existence is going to start their own petition. A game company as big as Bioware completely rewriting their ending due to fan demands is big.

And I can't readily think of any other big game franchise that had a totally lazy ending that went back on what they said it would be. Except maybe Fallout 3. That got changed. Did you see every other game's fanbase outcry to have the ending to their game changed? No, because they didn't feel cheated. Fallout 3 fans did. And now Mass Effect fans do.

[zegota]

you know very little about art, especialy commercial art, do you.

I've sold commercial art. I've never been convinced by a bad review that I needed to redo my piece for that person.

[gothicslo]

All the moments with tali :$ are the best, the conversation in the gameplay. But every think is so perfect....unti the end...Happy ending with tali pls

[ArmyKnifeX]

zegota wrote...

you know very little about art, especialy commercial art, do you.

I've sold commercial art. I've never been convinced by a bad review that I needed to redo my piece for that person.

What about over 50,000 bad reviews?

[Sunnyhat1]

zegota wrote...

Himmelstor wrote...
zegota, if you would please reply to this one. After I hear that, I'll head to bed and you'll have one less voice speaking against you.

Hmm, I thought I had, actually. Anyway, when it comes down to it, there's no problem with people hating the ending. It's actually a good thing. I think people have a fundamental right to complain -- I mean, it would be pretty boring if we all liked the same things. And I've gotten a little angry talking about the actual ending because of my anger at the petition topic, so I apologize -- it's separate. I like the ending, but if it didn't work for you, that's cool.

What really, really bothers me is the petitioning to get Bioware to change it. Because that essentially means you think everything should be majority rule, that, essentially, nothing that <50% of people enjoy should ever be created. And, with all the power Bioware has in the industry, that scares me. A whole lot.

This is an issue of semantics really.

The petition isn't really about scrapping the current ending. It's about building on it.

The current ending is fine. Expand it a bit and it can be one of the bad endings. "Demand a better ending" can easily be interpreted as a call to completely rewrite the ending that is there. But what the protesters really want is an expansion of the ending. With more feedback on their choices and a couple completely different (and brighter) endings aswell.

So there should really be no grudge between the people who like the ending and those who go "against" it. Our viewpoints are totally compatible.

Modifié par Sunnyhat1, 16 mars 2012 - 06:58 .

[Tannaraz]

I really loved the LI scenes in this
installment. Through use of the dialogue, the dates, the relationship felt more natural. Doing the coup de gras on Kai Lang is an insanely close second though. I'm normally 98% paragon, and when it happened, I had the almost had the reflex action of  "Woah woah, wait. Back up. Reload to take the paragon route". And then I realized, "No. No I'm pretty sure Shep would be that openly catty right now. " One of the few times I've ever felt smug after a renegade action.

Then there were a few random, minor moments -- like space hamster down in the engineering sub deck. I found
myself sneaking around the corner, until I heard the tell tale
"squeak", and then rushing out to nab him. Or finding the coffee mug in the incubator
(or w/e the heck it is) in Dr. Chakwas lab. The wall of the fallen
and seeing Jenkins and Pressely's names, and seeing names still being added.

Or Drunk Tali.

[wook77]

jeweledleah wrote...

zegota wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

zegota wrote...

ArmyKnifeX wrote...

Did you know Sherlock Holmes died? Yes, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle killed him. The public was outraged. Then he retconned it and brought him back. Or what about any and all fan-based retcons in the comic book industry?

You mean the comic book retcons that are routinely derided as hacking away at the intergrity of the storytelling medium? Those retcons? Yes. I'm aware.

And yes, I'm aware Doyle revived Sherlock Holmes so he could continue to make money. It was unfortunate he had to do it then, and it's unfortunate Bioware is going to have to do it now.

So your point then is art is only art if it's locked into one unchanging state after completion? Because that's kind of silly.

My argument is that it ceases to be art when the artist paints something, waits for a bunch of people to come in and tell him how he should change it, and then quickly slaps that up there for them.

you know very little about art, especialy commercial art, do you.

Or classical. Maybe Leonardo da Vinci isn't an artist because he changed his art based on the whims of his patron(s). Or Michaelangelo, either. I mean, that Sistine Chapel thing isn't art simply because the Pope dictated changes to it that Michaelangelo, and subsequent artists, made because of majority consensus. After all, that wouldn't have been a collaboration of artists that eventually decided on changing the art, right?

In the end, and to stay on target, adding endings doesn't change the fundamental story that we got - it would build on the story, providing information that wasn't previously available. I highly doubt "you" (general you) wouldn't buy the additional DLC if they had added additional endings without this kerfluffle. If you (general you) really want to use the art example, it would be the same as Botticelli adding artwork to the Sistine Chapel because the Church (the patron, the fan, as it were) requested it. The artwork would've been fine with the fresco from Michaelangelo but the Botticelli piece adds to it, expands the original vision - all at majority consensus, patron request.

[XxSint0rasxX]

jla0644 wrote...

zegota wrote...

ArmyKnifeX wrote...

zegota wrote...
What really, really bothers me is the petitioning to get Bioware to change it. Because that essentially means you think everything should be majority rule, that, essentially, nothing that <50% of people enjoy should ever be created. And, with all the power Bioware has in the industry, that scares me. A whole lot.

Would you be frightened if Bethesda did something similar?

Bethesda's games are not highly focused on story. Which is fine. But I, personally, like story-based games. So while I doubt Bethesda's actions really affect it much, imagining someone like Bioware essentially disappearing, or quitting with story-focused games, definitely frightens me.

Honestly I can't imagine this would happen too often, I'm not buying the slippery slope argument here.  Not many games can create the emotional response that the ME series has.   We've all seen good games have crappy endings, but I can't recall ever seeing a reaction like this, and that's because very few games can make gamers so emotionally vested.

Sign, I mean do you know more than 3 games, which have a comparable fan community? I don't, which is why this movement even exists.
I can't remember this happened before (a fanbase standing up against the producers)

[Arios1570]

Everything else in the game was so brilliantly done that I don't know where to begin.

Characters were so well fleshed out that I could see myself having a life-long friendship with them.
I'm an emotionally tough guy, I don't cry over anything, but you guys got me so many times throughout this series, made me care.
The art was very well done as well.
The themes carried along so well.

In this last game in particular: the active crew was a major improvement. The R&R with crew was entertaining and well done. Seeing the characters fully mature and reach their full potential was just amazing. The history of the Geth was worthy of a novel of its own. The way the Geth honored those who tried to kill them was simply beautiful. Even though I had to watch it on Youtube (thank God) Tali's death was the most tragic death of the series. Mordin's redemption was great, his death when betrayed was a close second to Tali's death. Legion's line when dying when the Geth were to be destroyed was great too. Grunt's near death experience was just epic, and a big twist. I wish Tali's face was rendered, but the image was good enough. Given time constraints, I can understand, that said, she looked beautiful and fittingly alien. The humor was great and brought the mood up from sad moments. Kalros vs. reaper was epic and made me cheer. Kinect commands were awesome, though the kinect doesn't always pick up, or sometimes picks up characters saying words and mistaking them for commands, example "You don't know that" Know that is mistaken for Nova, Shepard performs nova. LOL moment, to be sure, but could sometimes get annoying. Javik was awesome and all of From Ashes was worth $10, if, on the slim chance all that information is actually found on the disk (60%+ of the info at least) then I'll be annoyed, otherwise, all is good.

I don't hate the reason for the reapers or the Catalyst representing himself as the child. I found it to be interesting, but not well presented (taking out the investigate option wasn't a good move). It was everything else about the ending that has me up in arms. It betrays everything else in the story. It grinds against the lore so harshly that it looks like a train wreck. You can fix this and return ME3 to where it should be, I have complete faith in you all, just own up to the problem and get it fixed, spin it right and the money will roll in even more. Bethesda did it and they came out smelling like roses, you can too, hell, I would gladly accept it for $10 and completely forget this happened. Just please, let us know soon if we will actually be getting something made so if we aren't, I can at least start swapping my Xbox copies in for PC so I can mod my own ending in.

[Tannaraz]

Sunnyhat1 wrote...

This is an issue of semantics really.

The petition isn't really about scrapping the current ending. It's about building on it.

The current ending is fine. Expand it a bit and it can be one of the bad endings. "Demand a better ending" can easily be interpreted as a call to completely rewrite the ending that is there. But what the protesters really want is an expansion of the ending. With more feedback on their choices and a couple completely different (and brighter) endings aswell.

So there should really be no grudge between the people who like the ending and those who go "against" it. Our viewpoints are totally compatible.

This a thousand times.

[zegota]

Omnike wrote...
 Did you see every other game's fanbase outcry to have the ending to their game changed?

Yup. Final Fantasy XIII, XIII-2, pretty much every Kingdom Hearts game except the first one, Halo 2, Halo 3, the latest Call of Duty, LA Noire, Borderlands...

In fact, I'm hard pressed to think of a game or game series that WASN'T met with outrage from an extremely vocal subset of the community. Which, again, is just part of the business. But when gamers get word that they can force companies to change their endings with online petitions?

Holy.

****.

If there's anything gamers love, it's drama, ****ing, and Internet slacktivism. Put it all together, and watch the blood come out. Any company that refuses to give in to the community's demands gets an instant 0 on the metacritic, 1 star on Amazon. Coverage in all the game mags. UNLIMITED POWAR!

[Rucent]

To put it plainly, ME3 is probably one of the best gaming experiences I'll probably ever have... except the ending. Putting that aside, the gameplay, the writing, the soundtrack, the multiplayer experience, I don't think I've ever been so emotionally invested in a game since the first two ME's.

[jeweledleah]

zegota wrote...

you know very little about art, especialy commercial art, do you.

I've sold commercial art. I've never been convinced by a bad review that I needed to redo my piece for that person.

sigh...  so you've never once been told by a client that they want the work you are making for them changed?

why do I not believe you?