23455 réponses à ce sujet

[XSarenXArteriusX]

-5 and -6

[Karait]

I think bwfex's post really sums up feelings of people who investeded emotionally in Mass Effect to any degree.

I find it utterly frustrating they are holding back an official announcement on what happens next. I really don't care about the number of people who finished the game and how bad it would be for their business. I've been either lied to (my decisions were supposed to weigh heavily on game's conclusion) or conned by (there was no information that the product I was purchasing did not have an ending) an allegedly respectable company. A cheap official forum post/diversion attempt, especially with smileys at the end, will only make it worse. Really, if EA practices have started here for good (like patches which break games and never get repaired; Crysis 2) BioWare are going to find it really hard to keep me as their customer.

I wonder how awesome BioWare think the content they got up their sleeves is to offset this huge anti-climax created by endings, furthered by Tali's face fiasco (it has to down as a display of utter amateurism and disregard to fans - can't believe someone approved that m.o. considering how beautifully polished rest of the game was).

[Baine10]

There can be only one post that encapsulates the feelings of most in this thread, and it is this:

bwFex wrote...

I really have been trying to let myself get over this nightmare, but since you guys promise you're listening here, I'll try to just say it all, get it all out.

I have invested more of myself into this series than almost any other video game franchise in my life. I loved this game. I believed in it. For five years, it delivered. I must have played ME1 and ME2 a dozen times each.

I remember the end of Mass Effect 2. Never before, in any video game I had ever played, did I feel like my actions really mattered. Knowing that the decisions I made and the hard work I put into ME2 had a very real, clear, obvious impact on who lived and who died was one of the most astounding feelings in the world to me. I remember when that laser hit the Normandy and Joker made a comment about how he was happy we upgraded the shields. That was amazing. Cause and effect. Work and reward.

The first time I went through, I lost Mordin, and it was gut-wrenching: watching him die because I made a bad decision was damning, heartbreaking. But it wasn't hopeless, because I knew I could go back, do better, and save him. I knew that I was in control, that my actions mattered. So that's exactly what I did. I reviewed my decisions, found my mistakes, and did everything right. I put together a plan, I worked hard to follow that plan, and I got the reward I had worked so hard for. And then, it was all for nothing.

When I started playing Mass Effect 3, I was blown away. It was perfect. Everything was perfect. It was incredible to see all of my decisions playing out in front of me, building up to new and outrageous outcomes. I was so sure that this was it, this was going to be the masterpiece that crowned an already near-perfect trilogy. With every war asset I gathered, and with every multiplayer game I won, I knew that my work would pay off, that I would be truly satisfied with the outcome of my hard work and smart decisions. Every time I acquired a new WA bonus, I couldn't wait to see how it would play out in the final battle. And then, it was all for nothing.

I wasn't expecting a perfect, happy ending with rainbows and butterflies. In fact, I think I may have been insulted if everyone made it through just fine. The Reapers are an enormous threat (although obviously not as invincible as they would like us to believe), and we should be right to anticipate heavy losses. But I never lost hope. I built alliances, I made the impossible happen to rally the galaxy together. I cured the genophage. I saved the Turians. I united the geth and the quarians. And then, it was all for nothing.

When Mordin died, it was heartwrenching, but I knew it was the right thing. His sacrifice was... perfect. It made sense. It was congruent with the dramatic themes that had been present since I very first met Wrex in ME1. It was not a cheap trick, a deus ex machina, an easy out. It was beautiful, meaningful, significant, relevant, and satisfying. It was an amazing way for an amazing character to sacrifice themself for an amazing thing. And then it was all for nothing.

When Thane died, it was tearjerking. I knew from the moment he explained his illness that one day, I'd have to deal with his death. I knew he was never going to survive the trilogy, and I knew it wouldn't be fun to watch him go. But when his son started reading the prayer, I lost it. His death was beautiful. It was significant. It was relevant. It was satisfying. It was meaningful. He died to protect Shepard, to protect the entire Citadel. He took a life he thought was unredeemable and used it to make the world a brighter place. And then it was all for nothing.

When Wrex and Eve thanked me for saving their species, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Tali set foot on her homeworld, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Javik gave his inspiring speech, I felt that I had inspired something truly great. When I activated the Citadel's arms, sat down to reminisce with Anderson one final time, I felt that I had truly accomplished something amazing. I felt that my sacrifice was meaningful. Significant. Relevant. And while still a completely unexplained deus ex machina, at least it was a little bit satisfying.

And then, just like everything else in this trilogy, it was all for nothing.

If we pretend like the indoctrination theory is false, and we're really supposed to take the ending at face value, this entire game is a lost cause. The krogans will never repopulate. The quarians will never rebuild their home world. The geth will never know what it means to be alive and independent. The salarians will never see how people can change for the better.

Instead, the quarians and turians will endure a quick, torturous extinction as they slowly starve to death, trapped in a system with no support for them. Everyone else will squabble over the scraps of Earth that haven't been completely obliterated, until the krogans drive them all to extinction and then die off without any women present. And this is all assuming that the relays didn't cause supernova-scaled extinction events simply by being destroyed, like we saw in Arrival.

And perhaps the worst part is that we don't even know. We don't know what happened to our squadmates. We didn't get any sort of catharsis, conclusion. We got five years of literary foreplay followed by a kick to the groin and a note telling us that in a couple months, we can pay Bioware $15 for them to do it to us all over again.

It's not just the abysmally depressing/sacrificial nature of the ending, either. As I've already made perfectly clear, I came into this game expecting sacrifice. When Mordin did it, it was beautiful. When Thane did it, it was beautiful. Even Verner. Stupid, misguided, idiotic Verner. Even his ridiculous sacrifice had meaning, relevance, coherence, and offered satisfaction.

No, it's not the sacrifice I have a problem with. It's the utter lack of coherence and respect for the five years of literary gold that have already been established in this franchise. We spent three games preparing to fight these reapers. I spent hours upon hours doing every side quest, picking up every war asset, maxing out my galactic readiness so that when the time came, the army I had built could make a stand, and show these Reapers that we won't go down without a fight.

In ME1, we did the impossible when we killed Sovereign. In ME2, we began to see that the Reapers aren't as immortal as they claim to be: that even they have basic needs, exploitable weaknesses. In ME3, we saw the Reapers die. We saw one get taken down by an overgrown worm. We saw one die with a few coordinated orbital bombardments. We saw several ripped apart by standard space combat. In ME1, it took three alliance fleets to kill the "invincible" Sovereign. By the end of ME3, I had assembled a galactic armada fifty times more powerful than that, and a thousand times more prepared. I never expected the fight to be easy, but I proved that we wouldn't go down without a fight, that there is always hope in unity. That's the theme we've been given for the past five years: there is hope and strength through unity. That if we work together, we can achieve the impossible.

And then we're supposed to believe that the fate of the galaxy comes down to some completely unexplained starchild asking Shepard what his favorite color is? That the army we built was all for nothing? That the squad whose loyalty we fought so hard for was all for nothing? That in the end, none of it mattered at all?

It's a poetic notion, but this isn't the place for poetry. It's one thing to rattle prose nihilistic over the course of a movie or ballad, where the audience is a passive observer, learning a lesson from the suffering and futility of a character, but that's not what Mass Effect is. Mass Effect has always been about making the player the true hero. If you really want us to all feel like we spent the past five years dumping time, energy, and emotional investment into this game just to tell us that nothing really matters, you have signed your own death certificate. Nobody pays hundreds of dollars and hours to be reminded how bleak, empty, and depressing the world can be, to be told that nothing we do matters, to be told that all of our greatest accomplishments, all of our faith, all of our work, all of our unity is for nothing.

No. It simply cannot be this bleak. I refuse to believe Bioware is really doing this. The ending of ME1 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won. The ending of ME2 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won.

Taken at face value, the end of ME3 throws every single thing we've done in the past five years into the wind, and makes the player watch from a distance as the entire galaxy is thrown into a technological dark age and a stellar extinction. Why would we care about a universe that no longer exists? We should we invest any more time or money into a world that will never be what we came to know and love?

Even if the ending is retconned, it doesn't make things better. Just knowing that the starchild was our real foe the entire time is so utterly mindless, contrived, and irrelevant to what we experienced in ME1 and ME2 that it cannot be forgiven. If that really is the truth, then Mass Effect simply isn't what we thought it was. And frankly, if this is what Mass Effect was supposed to be all along, I want no part of it. It's a useless, trite, overplayed cliche, so far beneath the praise I once gave this franchise that it hurts to think about.

No. There is no way to save this franchise without giving us the only explanation that makes sense. You know what it is. It was the plan all along. Too much evidence to not be true. Too many people reaching the same conclusions independently.

The indoctrination theory doesn't just save this franchise: it elevates it to one of the most powerful and compelling storytelling experiences I've ever had in my life. The fact that you managed to do more than indoctrinate Shepard - you managed to indoctrinate the players themselves - is astonishing. If that really was the end game, here, then you have won my gaming soul. But if that's true, then I'm still waiting for the rest of this story, the final chapter of Shepard's heroic journey. I paid to finish the fight, and if the indoctrination theory is true, it's not over yet.

And if it's not, then I just don't even care. I have been betrayed, and it's time for me to let go of the denial, the anger, the bargaining, and start working through the depression and emptiness until I can just move on. You can't keep teasing us like this. This must have seemed like a great plan at the time, but it has cost too much. These people believed in you. I believed in you.

Just make it right. 

There can only be one, that from then on it's /thread.

[ArmyN7]

I have to say, Mass Effect is the only Game franchise I've come to love more than any franchise out there. ME3 was a masterpiece, I loved the multiplayer, and every moment in the single-player was awesome, but I have to say, that the ending wasn't the best I expected and I REALLY wanted to see Tali's face In-Game, not in a picture(thought it's a nice picture too).

[PowerMetal500]

Liked all but the ending!

[mulder1199]

i will not buy your dlc
i will not but it, no not me
i won't have your dlc in my house
i will not purchase it with my mouse
your dlc is not worth squat
boy the end has people really hot....

[dojocan81]

bwFex wrote...

I really have been trying to let myself get over this nightmare, but since you guys promise you're listening here, I'll try to just say it all, get it all out.

I have invested more of myself into this series than almost any other video game franchise in my life. I loved this game. I believed in it. For five years, it delivered. I must have played ME1 and ME2 a dozen times each.

I remember the end of Mass Effect 2. Never before, in any video game I had ever played, did I feel like my actions really mattered. Knowing that the decisions I made and the hard work I put into ME2 had a very real, clear, obvious impact on who lived and who died was one of the most astounding feelings in the world to me. I remember when that laser hit the Normandy and Joker made a comment about how he was happy we upgraded the shields. That was amazing. Cause and effect. Work and reward.

The first time I went through, I lost Mordin, and it was gut-wrenching: watching him die because I made a bad decision was damning, heartbreaking. But it wasn't hopeless, because I knew I could go back, do better, and save him. I knew that I was in control, that my actions mattered. So that's exactly what I did. I reviewed my decisions, found my mistakes, and did everything right. I put together a plan, I worked hard to follow that plan, and I got the reward I had worked so hard for. And then, it was all for nothing.

When I started playing Mass Effect 3, I was blown away. It was perfect. Everything was perfect. It was incredible to see all of my decisions playing out in front of me, building up to new and outrageous outcomes. I was so sure that this was it, this was going to be the masterpiece that crowned an already near-perfect trilogy. With every war asset I gathered, and with every multiplayer game I won, I knew that my work would pay off, that I would be truly satisfied with the outcome of my hard work and smart decisions. Every time I acquired a new WA bonus, I couldn't wait to see how it would play out in the final battle. And then, it was all for nothing.

I wasn't expecting a perfect, happy ending with rainbows and butterflies. In fact, I think I may have been insulted if everyone made it through just fine. The Reapers are an enormous threat (although obviously not as invincible as they would like us to believe), and we should be right to anticipate heavy losses. But I never lost hope. I built alliances, I made the impossible happen to rally the galaxy together. I cured the genophage. I saved the Turians. I united the geth and the quarians. And then, it was all for nothing.

When Mordin died, it was heartwrenching, but I knew it was the right thing. His sacrifice was... perfect. It made sense. It was congruent with the dramatic themes that had been present since I very first met Wrex in ME1. It was not a cheap trick, a deus ex machina, an easy out. It was beautiful, meaningful, significant, relevant, and satisfying. It was an amazing way for an amazing character to sacrifice themself for an amazing thing. And then it was all for nothing.

When Thane died, it was tearjerking. I knew from the moment he explained his illness that one day, I'd have to deal with his death. I knew he was never going to survive the trilogy, and I knew it wouldn't be fun to watch him go. But when his son started reading the prayer, I lost it. His death was beautiful. It was significant. It was relevant. It was satisfying. It was meaningful. He died to protect Shepard, to protect the entire Citadel. He took a life he thought was unredeemable and used it to make the world a brighter place. And then it was all for nothing.

When Wrex and Eve thanked me for saving their species, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Tali set foot on her homeworld, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Javik gave his inspiring speech, I felt that I had inspired something truly great. When I activated the Citadel's arms, sat down to reminisce with Anderson one final time, I felt that I had truly accomplished something amazing. I felt that my sacrifice was meaningful. Significant. Relevant. And while still a completely unexplained deus ex machina, at least it was a little bit satisfying.

And then, just like everything else in this trilogy, it was all for nothing.

If we pretend like the indoctrination theory is false, and we're really supposed to take the ending at face value, this entire game is a lost cause. The krogans will never repopulate. The quarians will never rebuild their home world. The geth will never know what it means to be alive and independent. The salarians will never see how people can change for the better.

Instead, the quarians and turians will endure a quick, torturous extinction as they slowly starve to death, trapped in a system with no support for them. Everyone else will squabble over the scraps of Earth that haven't been completely obliterated, until the krogans drive them all to extinction and then die off without any women present. And this is all assuming that the relays didn't cause supernova-scaled extinction events simply by being destroyed, like we saw in Arrival.

And perhaps the worst part is that we don't even know. We don't know what happened to our squadmates. We didn't get any sort of catharsis, conclusion. We got five years of literary foreplay followed by a kick to the groin and a note telling us that in a couple months, we can pay Bioware $15 for them to do it to us all over again.

It's not just the abysmally depressing/sacrificial nature of the ending, either. As I've already made perfectly clear, I came into this game expecting sacrifice. When Mordin did it, it was beautiful. When Thane did it, it was beautiful. Even Verner. Stupid, misguided, idiotic Verner. Even his ridiculous sacrifice had meaning, relevance, coherence, and offered satisfaction.

No, it's not the sacrifice I have a problem with. It's the utter lack of coherence and respect for the five years of literary gold that have already been established in this franchise. We spent three games preparing to fight these reapers. I spent hours upon hours doing every side quest, picking up every war asset, maxing out my galactic readiness so that when the time came, the army I had built could make a stand, and show these Reapers that we won't go down without a fight.

In ME1, we did the impossible when we killed Sovereign. In ME2, we began to see that the Reapers aren't as immortal as they claim to be: that even they have basic needs, exploitable weaknesses. In ME3, we saw the Reapers die. We saw one get taken down by an overgrown worm. We saw one die with a few coordinated orbital bombardments. We saw several ripped apart by standard space combat. In ME1, it took three alliance fleets to kill the "invincible" Sovereign. By the end of ME3, I had assembled a galactic armada fifty times more powerful than that, and a thousand times more prepared. I never expected the fight to be easy, but I proved that we wouldn't go down without a fight, that there is always hope in unity. That's the theme we've been given for the past five years: there is hope and strength through unity. That if we work together, we can achieve the impossible.

And then we're supposed to believe that the fate of the galaxy comes down to some completely unexplained starchild asking Shepard what his favorite color is? That the army we built was all for nothing? That the squad whose loyalty we fought so hard for was all for nothing? That in the end, none of it mattered at all?

It's a poetic notion, but this isn't the place for poetry. It's one thing to rattle prose nihilistic over the course of a movie or ballad, where the audience is a passive observer, learning a lesson from the suffering and futility of a character, but that's not what Mass Effect is. Mass Effect has always been about making the player the true hero. If you really want us to all feel like we spent the past five years dumping time, energy, and emotional investment into this game just to tell us that nothing really matters, you have signed your own death certificate. Nobody pays hundreds of dollars and hours to be reminded how bleak, empty, and depressing the world can be, to be told that nothing we do matters, to be told that all of our greatest accomplishments, all of our faith, all of our work, all of our unity is for nothing.

No. It simply cannot be this bleak. I refuse to believe Bioware is really doing this. The ending of ME1 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won. The ending of ME2 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won.

Taken at face value, the end of ME3 throws every single thing we've done in the past five years into the wind, and makes the player watch from a distance as the entire galaxy is thrown into a technological dark age and a stellar extinction. Why would we care about a universe that no longer exists? We should we invest any more time or money into a world that will never be what we came to know and love?

Even if the ending is retconned, it doesn't make things better. Just knowing that the starchild was our real foe the entire time is so utterly mindless, contrived, and irrelevant to what we experienced in ME1 and ME2 that it cannot be forgiven. If that really is the truth, then Mass Effect simply isn't what we thought it was. And frankly, if this is what Mass Effect was supposed to be all along, I want no part of it. It's a useless, trite, overplayed cliche, so far beneath the praise I once gave this franchise that it hurts to think about.

No. There is no way to save this franchise without giving us the only explanation that makes sense. You know what it is. It was the plan all along. Too much evidence to not be true. Too many people reaching the same conclusions independently.

The indoctrination theory doesn't just save this franchise: it elevates it to one of the most powerful and compelling storytelling experiences I've ever had in my life. The fact that you managed to do more than indoctrinate Shepard - you managed to indoctrinate the players themselves - is astonishing. If that really was the end game, here, then you have won my gaming soul. But if that's true, then I'm still waiting for the rest of this story, the final chapter of Shepard's heroic journey. I paid to finish the fight, and if the indoctrination theory is true, it's not over yet.

And if it's not, then I just don't even care. I have been betrayed, and it's time for me to let go of the denial, the anger, the bargaining, and start working through the depression and emptiness until I can just move on. You can't keep teasing us like this. This must have seemed like a great plan at the time, but it has cost too much. These people believed in you. I believed in you.

Just make it right. 

also this, it really doenst matter if i had choosed liara in me1, didnt cheat on her in me2 and take back my love in me3 .... it all doenst matter anymore b/c of those endings :(:(

[michal9o90]

You know guys what i think.

THIS WHOLE STORY AFTER THIS LASER ATACK FROM REAPERS IS JUST SHEPARD FIGHT IN HIS/HER MIND!

You know why, because in the best story when you take, rigth side, destroy reapers, "Shepard is weaking up on ground", and THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE, BECAUSE THE WHOLE CITADEL IS BLOW UP, and the CENTER OF EXPLOSION IS WHERE WAS SHEPARD!

SO the best logical solution is that this is only figth with the indoctrination from reapers, and only if you choose destroying reapers, then the shepard is waking up and now will be true ending.

That is my opinion after ending of the game. And i think BW did it specially, and now they send out the real ending.

Modifié par michal9o90, 16 mars 2012 - 05:25 .

[jmarkows]

I can certainly appreciate why you wouldn't want the ending to be all sunshine and puppies (as they saying goes), but I feel that the current endings give Shepard too raw of a deal and leave out too much (the standard ending complaint). If you really must kill him, at least give a sense of closure, and for the love of all that's Holy, don't destroy the entire canon universe (ala Mass Relays).

As for my favorite part of the game? The combat system. I loved ME1's system, but ME2 made the Engineer a pain. On the harder difficulties, most powers were useless. If you can't hack through shields or armor, what's the point? That YMIR mech would make a great ally, but by the time I get it down to health it'll only take another 3 seconds to kill anyway. I think the ME3 combat system learned from both 1 and 2 and created a fantastic blend (the weapon weights and how they affect power recharge, as well as powers being used through shields/barriers/armor).

[xxLDZxx]

The attack on the citadel by Cerberus, was a few minutes under shock hands shaking high pulse and and and cant believe TIM is puling this kind of show. I was certain that Bailie and udina work together.

[Asclepus]

CerberusMolecularNetwork wrote...


I just wrote this down because Bioware doesn't deserve our hatred. They need our support, and new ideas! They worked hard to create an awesome experience. And I think they just did that.

Opinions?

For the most part I agree with you, it is only this above quote which caught my eye that I think I need to respond to. 
First, Bioware -has- our support. They took our money in a commercial transaction promising certain things in their pre-release publicity. I expect them to deliver on those promises up to -and including- an ending sequence that delivers as promises. I don't support liars as a general rule, but if they make it right, we'll see.

Second, they are receiving feedback and conceptual support. There's a wealth of ideas floating around in the community from the absurd to the enlightened. Many people are trying to make it right, but unfortunately, Bioware is not Bethesda. Bioware ass a rule demands control over their games and does not share that control with their player base as a rule.

Third, the awesome experience is tainted for many (I will not say all, but I do consider 50k+ people to be a many) by the high-handed approach to the ending. Yes, it was a great game even though I utterly despised dream sequences that i could in no way skip. In fact, the ending felt and played almost exactly as a dream sequence, but I digress. I loved the game play and the little story additions, but if I drive 500 miles only to crash the car at the end, it doesn't matter how much fun I had on the journey, it's still a wreck at the end and that is what I have taken away from this.

Finally, please do not take this as an attack against you personally. I merely wanted to respond to the issue about supporting Bioware. I am not certain they deserve my support any longer and yours happened to be the post I grabbed a quote from.

Modifié par Asclepus, 16 mars 2012 - 05:27 .

[Tony Redgrave]

Caz Neerg wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...
Except the "Indoctrination Theory" fails just as hard as the real ending when you remember the Prothean VI can detect indoctrination, and it doesn't flag when it sees you.

Fundamentally flawed logic.  Not being indoctrinated for the entire game =/= not being indoctrinated by the end of the game.

I just keep wondering how Shepard apparantly remains immune to indoctrination and why Harbinger is so insistent on wanting Shepard alive. "Reliquish your form to us!" ?
I'm thinking Collector General posession when I hear this. How much wouldn't the Reapers reap if they controlled Shepard?
Even though Harbinger keeps trying to kill you over and over in ME2.
Just a random thought...

[JEREMIE1981]

The only thing that confused me is the Reaper Kid thing. First off, why does it look human? The kid said something about these cycles going on for millions of years and countless species being destroyed because they insight chaos. The reapers left humans alone in the last cycle because we were primitive and not a threat to the stability of the galaxy,but that doesn't mean we were not ever a threat in another galaxy. The reapers aren't from the Milky Way galaxy obviously, or else you would run into them alot more and they wouldn't need mass relays to travel. Mass effect 2 had a cut scene that showed the reapers heading toward the milky way from another galaxy. Mass effect 2's Arrival DLC had you destroy a mass relay in Batarian space because the reapers were going to pour through, ever ask yourself where would that Relay take you if you traveled through it the opposite direction? Probably another galaxy where the reapers originated. That relay was used so the reapers wouldn't have to travel through dark space from whatever galaxy. The Protheans didn't create the relays the reapers did. My theory is that humans from another galaxy created the reapers like the quarians created the geth. The machines became self aware and turned on us and all other organic life in the universe. The reapers actions are all black and white no grey area at all, meaning they are not True AI. They are a virtual intelligence with a strict set of laws/rules, destroy all organic life if its a threat, no matter what. An AI or True AI can make it's own choices.The VI Kid God thing said itself that the Conduit allows for new programming or choices. Meaning the reapers never had any other choice than destroying everything. They are just a simple VI that went rogue at some point. A perfect example of my theory is the movie franchise "The Terminator". A simple defense program that caught a virus and turned on it's creators. I Liked the endings other than they didn't explain where the reapers came from or who created them and what happened to the majority of your crew.The ending to me meant, no matter all the crazy choices you make in life we are all destined to die in the end...life will go on.A lil mystery is okay ,but it's a bit too much mystery for most...
Just explain where the reapers came from or who made them and what happened to everyone else after the mass relays self destructed. You wouldn't have these problems if you would have just explained these critical end game topics.

[Vasparian]

Hey JEREMIE1981... Use paragraphs.

[Lurchibald]

DESTRAUDO wrote...

I think the ending was well crafted. I think it carried enough ambiguity to make it something worth discussing and debating. However, the ending did indeed happen. The indoctrination theories are grasping heavily at straws, totally ignore anything that would be considered a hit against the credibility of their logic.

1)The entire indoctrination theory is based on the idea that at some point shepard loses control. Some suggest that the rubble at the end means he was still in london and that it was all an indoctrination dream after he was hit by the reaper beam. Why would the reapers bother to engage in that, when they could just fire a second beam, or stomp on his half dead corpse. 

2)People suggest that Anderson getting to the control room before you also indicated it is a dream/indoctrination. In the game Anderson specifically states that he was dropped off by the beam somewhere different to you. He was also in a lot better condition than you, and from the timeline of events only beat you to the control room by 30-60 seconds. The fourth wall reality though is that he had to be in the room before you because that was how they wanted the three way conversation between you two and the illusive man to play out, and by they i mean devs, not reapers. 

3)As for the ending, i chose to blend organic and synthetic life. I thought the tech/synthetic pattern on jokers skin at the end was pretty awesome to boot. Why did i choose that ending? Because it was the best ending. It brought an end to all war between organics and synthetics now and in the future. I did it for the same reason Mordin sacrificed himself to cure the genophage, for the same reason legion sacrificed himself to raise the geth to a new level. If any of the people complaining played towards paragon, what makes your shepard deserving of a cheat out of the consequences of the situation. If you want that cheat, blow up all synthetic life in the galaxy. Blow up the get you saved, and blow up EDI while you are at it. You get to live at the end but you wiped out at least 2 races to do it. That to me is not the paragon option, that is two counts of genocide. Taking control of the reapers is better, you are not wiping out the geth, but you still enslaving a machine race.  


The last thing i want to hit on is some of the bizarro world scenarios people are coming up with. The universe is doomed and all the fleets are trapped and they will all die of starvation. Where does this even come from? The leaps of negative logic required to come to these conclusions are staggering.
I have seen it painted as being the end of the mass effect universe. Not in the least.

4)In the mass effect universe, FTL drives are capable of doing at least 12 light years per day cruising. Any time you make a trip on the galaxy map that does not involve a mass relay you are using this drive system. While it would be long haul, you could get to the krogan dmz in about a year. You would not have to, but i will get to that in a moment. The point here is that at the very least, there would be dozens and dozens of systems within easy range of the fleet. Days travel tops, so stranded or starved for resources they are not. And that is not even considering what would happen when they have the necessity to improve the speed and efficiency of their standard ftl drives. 

Not that it matters. Even presuming you took what i think is the worst ending, blowing up the reapers, the destruction of the mass relays is at best, a minor inconvenience. There are pockets of super advanced tech in the galaxy, for example where all the galaxys greatest minds gathered to build the crucible. In me2 an asari barmaid casually referred to the asari needing to get off their ass and start building mass effect relays. I think it is well within the abilities of the current cycle to get the relay system back up in a not unreasonable volume of time. I mean they built the crucible in what was in theory a couple of months tops, a mass relay is not beyond their abilities. And if you controlled the reapers or fused organic with synthetic then i would happily speculate that the reapers would have the knowledge to construct mass relays.

Yes, the ending changed the mass effect universe immeasurably. It did not end it. I would LOVE to see some prologue DLC, or a MMO set in the mass effect universe some time before or after these events but i was honestly very happy with the ending i got and i would be really disappointed if the devs cave and rewrite it.

1. Because it makes total sense that Shepard is able to breathe in rubble in space with no helmet...
2. The problem is that there is only one path to that room.
3. So Saren was right all along? http://www.youtube.c...TNEeGxg#t=1m33s
4. FTL wouldn't work

Mass Relay Codex entry wrote...
 They are enormous structures scattered throughout the stars, and can create corridors of virtually mass-free space allowing instantaneous transit between locations separated by years or even centuries of travel using conventional FTL drives.

Thats not days, also, space is very empty, they would have to reach a planet every 50 hours to discharge their FTL drives (otherwise everyone on board a ship would fry) and larger ships have to discharge their cores more often... EDIT: oh, and they need fuel....

Modifié par Lurchibald, 16 mars 2012 - 05:32 .

[streamlock]

I think being able to engage in 'healthy discussion" is going to prove somewhat difficult.

[Archonsg]

michal9o90 wrote...

You know guys what i think.

THIS WHOLE STORY AFTER THIS LASER ATACK FROM REAPERS IS JUST SHEPARD FIGHT IN HIS/HER MIND!

You know why, because in the best story when you take, rigth side, destroy reapers, "Shepard is weaking up on ground", and THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE, BECAUSE THE WHOLE CITADEL IS BLOW UP, and the CENTER OF EXPLOSION IS WHERE WAS SHEPARD!

SO the best logical solution is that this is only figth with the indoctrination from reapers, and only if you choose destroying reapers, then the shepard is waking up and now will be true ending.

That is my opinion after ending of the game. And i think BW did it specially, and now they send out the real ending.

Except that if you allow for the indocrination theory, that means the Crucible never fired, nothing after that beam was real. Every one who came to Earth Space, everything done there was done in hopes that Shepard finds something / does something to end the conflict. 

I am sorry, but the entire combined Galactic armada was there just to give Shepard time to open the Citadel's arms and use Crucible to do what it does. Since that never happened, it means that Alliance armada fought a *conventional* war with the reapers. 

Didn't they keep telling you that you can't win a conventional war and that trying to do so will just wipe all your forces out?

[Genera1Nemesis]

JEREMIE1981 wrote...

The only thing that confused me is the Reaper Kid thing. First off, why does it look human? The kid said something about these cycles going on for millions of years and countless species being destroyed because they insight chaos. The reapers left humans alone in the last cycle because we were primitive and not a threat to the stability of the galaxy,but that doesn't mean we were not ever a threat in another galaxy. The reapers aren't from the Milky Way galaxy obviously, or else you would run into them alot more and they wouldn't need mass relays to travel. Mass effect 2 had a cut scene that showed the reapers heading toward the milky way from another galaxy. Mass effect 2's Arrival DLC had you destroy a mass relay in Batarian space because the reapers were going to pour through, ever ask yourself where would that Relay take you if you traveled through it the opposite direction? Probably another galaxy where the reapers originated. That relay was used so the reapers wouldn't have to travel through dark space from whatever galaxy. The Protheans didn't create the relays the reapers did. My theory is that humans from another galaxy created the reapers like the quarians created the geth. The machines became self aware and turned on us and all other organic life in the universe. The reapers actions are all black and white no grey area at all, meaning they are not True AI. They are a virtual intelligence with a strict set of laws/rules, destroy all organic life if its a threat, no matter what. An AI or True AI can make it's own choices.The VI Kid God thing said itself that the Conduit allows for new programming or choices. Meaning the reapers never had any other choice than destroying everything. They are just a simple VI that went rogue at some point. A perfect example of my theory is the movie franchise "The Terminator". A simple defense program that caught a virus and turned on it's creators. I Liked the endings other than they didn't explain where the reapers came from or who created them and what happened to the majority of your crew.The ending to me meant, no matter all the crazy choices you make in life we are all destined to die in the end...life will go on.A lil mystery is okay ,but it's a bit too much mystery for most...
Just explain where the reapers came from or who made them and what happened to everyone else after the mass relays self destructed. You wouldn't have these problems if you would have just explained these critical end game topics.

"The Reaper kid Thing" did the same thing that Legion did when Shep entered the Geth hub; made himself familiar and something Shep would recognize.

As for the relay thing; the Reapers had to come through Dark Space because they couldn't use the Citadel as the yhad in the past to just jump in from whereever they were and get a pre-emptive strike. This was the problem solved in the first game; and it slowed the Reapers down by a few years. The Batarian relay was just the first reay the reapers would have arrived at; and thus would have been able to jump everywhere right away. By taking out that relay Shep slowed them down by another few months.

[JEREMIE1981]

it was in 3 paragraphs. not sure why it did that when i posted i

[TheRealMithril]

Chris.. while I understand and sympathize with the bwFex post, it is about time to stop the spamming.. seriously.

[michal9o90]

You know guys what i think.

THIS WHOLE STORY AFTER THIS LASER ATACK FROM REAPERS IS JUST SHEPARD FIGHT IN HIS/HER MIND!

You know why, because in the best story when you take, rigth side, destroy reapers, "Shepard is weaking up on ground", and THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE, BECAUSE THE WHOLE CITADEL IS BLOW UP, and the CENTER OF EXPLOSION IS WHERE WAS SHEPARD!

SO the best logical solution is that: this is only figth with the indoctrination from reapers, and only if you choose destroying reapers, then the shepard is waking up and now will be true ending.

That is my opinion after ending of the game. And i think BW did it specially, and now they send out the real ending.

What did you guys think about it??

[magnutz06]

Sheps so glad he united a galaxy and all its military strength just to run at a beam with handful of alliance marines !?!?!

[Esoretal]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...
Except the "Indoctrination Theory" fails just as hard as the real ending when you remember the Prothean VI can detect indoctrination, and it doesn't flag when it sees you.

The Prothean VI refuses to tell you on Thessia, and TIM shows up about two seconds later so it's not clear whether it's Shep or TIM that's indoctrinated. It only tells you after it's been "overridden", again making it unclear.

Modifié par Esoretal, 16 mars 2012 - 05:33 .

[jmarkows]

bwFex wrote...

I really have been trying to let myself get over this nightmare, but since you guys promise you're listening here, I'll try to just say it all, get it all out.

I have invested more of myself into this series than almost any other video game franchise in my life. I loved this game. I believed in it. For five years, it delivered. I must have played ME1 and ME2 a dozen times each.

I remember the end of Mass Effect 2. Never before, in any video game I had ever played, did I feel like my actions really mattered. Knowing that the decisions I made and the hard work I put into ME2 had a very real, clear, obvious impact on who lived and who died was one of the most astounding feelings in the world to me. I remember when that laser hit the Normandy and Joker made a comment about how he was happy we upgraded the shields. That was amazing. Cause and effect. Work and reward.

The first time I went through, I lost Mordin, and it was gut-wrenching: watching him die because I made a bad decision was damning, heartbreaking. But it wasn't hopeless, because I knew I could go back, do better, and save him. I knew that I was in control, that my actions mattered. So that's exactly what I did. I reviewed my decisions, found my mistakes, and did everything right. I put together a plan, I worked hard to follow that plan, and I got the reward I had worked so hard for. And then, it was all for nothing.

When I started playing Mass Effect 3, I was blown away. It was perfect. Everything was perfect. It was incredible to see all of my decisions playing out in front of me, building up to new and outrageous outcomes. I was so sure that this was it, this was going to be the masterpiece that crowned an already near-perfect trilogy. With every war asset I gathered, and with every multiplayer game I won, I knew that my work would pay off, that I would be truly satisfied with the outcome of my hard work and smart decisions. Every time I acquired a new WA bonus, I couldn't wait to see how it would play out in the final battle. And then, it was all for nothing.

I wasn't expecting a perfect, happy ending with rainbows and butterflies. In fact, I think I may have been insulted if everyone made it through just fine. The Reapers are an enormous threat (although obviously not as invincible as they would like us to believe), and we should be right to anticipate heavy losses. But I never lost hope. I built alliances, I made the impossible happen to rally the galaxy together. I cured the genophage. I saved the Turians. I united the geth and the quarians. And then, it was all for nothing.

When Mordin died, it was heartwrenching, but I knew it was the right thing. His sacrifice was... perfect. It made sense. It was congruent with the dramatic themes that had been present since I very first met Wrex in ME1. It was not a cheap trick, a deus ex machina, an easy out. It was beautiful, meaningful, significant, relevant, and satisfying. It was an amazing way for an amazing character to sacrifice themself for an amazing thing. And then it was all for nothing.

When Thane died, it was tearjerking. I knew from the moment he explained his illness that one day, I'd have to deal with his death. I knew he was never going to survive the trilogy, and I knew it wouldn't be fun to watch him go. But when his son started reading the prayer, I lost it. His death was beautiful. It was significant. It was relevant. It was satisfying. It was meaningful. He died to protect Shepard, to protect the entire Citadel. He took a life he thought was unredeemable and used it to make the world a brighter place. And then it was all for nothing.

When Wrex and Eve thanked me for saving their species, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Tali set foot on her homeworld, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Javik gave his inspiring speech, I felt that I had inspired something truly great. When I activated the Citadel's arms, sat down to reminisce with Anderson one final time, I felt that I had truly accomplished something amazing. I felt that my sacrifice was meaningful. Significant. Relevant. And while still a completely unexplained deus ex machina, at least it was a little bit satisfying.

And then, just like everything else in this trilogy, it was all for nothing.

If we pretend like the indoctrination theory is false, and we're really supposed to take the ending at face value, this entire game is a lost cause. The krogans will never repopulate. The quarians will never rebuild their home world. The geth will never know what it means to be alive and independent. The salarians will never see how people can change for the better.

Instead, the quarians and turians will endure a quick, torturous extinction as they slowly starve to death, trapped in a system with no support for them. Everyone else will squabble over the scraps of Earth that haven't been completely obliterated, until the krogans drive them all to extinction and then die off without any women present. And this is all assuming that the relays didn't cause supernova-scaled extinction events simply by being destroyed, like we saw in Arrival.

And perhaps the worst part is that we don't even know. We don't know what happened to our squadmates. We didn't get any sort of catharsis, conclusion. We got five years of literary foreplay followed by a kick to the groin and a note telling us that in a couple months, we can pay Bioware $15 for them to do it to us all over again.

It's not just the abysmally depressing/sacrificial nature of the ending, either. As I've already made perfectly clear, I came into this game expecting sacrifice. When Mordin did it, it was beautiful. When Thane did it, it was beautiful. Even Verner. Stupid, misguided, idiotic Verner. Even his ridiculous sacrifice had meaning, relevance, coherence, and offered satisfaction.

No, it's not the sacrifice I have a problem with. It's the utter lack of coherence and respect for the five years of literary gold that have already been established in this franchise. We spent three games preparing to fight these reapers. I spent hours upon hours doing every side quest, picking up every war asset, maxing out my galactic readiness so that when the time came, the army I had built could make a stand, and show these Reapers that we won't go down without a fight.

In ME1, we did the impossible when we killed Sovereign. In ME2, we began to see that the Reapers aren't as immortal as they claim to be: that even they have basic needs, exploitable weaknesses. In ME3, we saw the Reapers die. We saw one get taken down by an overgrown worm. We saw one die with a few coordinated orbital bombardments. We saw several ripped apart by standard space combat. In ME1, it took three alliance fleets to kill the "invincible" Sovereign. By the end of ME3, I had assembled a galactic armada fifty times more powerful than that, and a thousand times more prepared. I never expected the fight to be easy, but I proved that we wouldn't go down without a fight, that there is always hope in unity. That's the theme we've been given for the past five years: there is hope and strength through unity. That if we work together, we can achieve the impossible.

And then we're supposed to believe that the fate of the galaxy comes down to some completely unexplained starchild asking Shepard what his favorite color is? That the army we built was all for nothing? That the squad whose loyalty we fought so hard for was all for nothing? That in the end, none of it mattered at all?

It's a poetic notion, but this isn't the place for poetry. It's one thing to rattle prose nihilistic over the course of a movie or ballad, where the audience is a passive observer, learning a lesson from the suffering and futility of a character, but that's not what Mass Effect is. Mass Effect has always been about making the player the true hero. If you really want us to all feel like we spent the past five years dumping time, energy, and emotional investment into this game just to tell us that nothing really matters, you have signed your own death certificate. Nobody pays hundreds of dollars and hours to be reminded how bleak, empty, and depressing the world can be, to be told that nothing we do matters, to be told that all of our greatest accomplishments, all of our faith, all of our work, all of our unity is for nothing.

No. It simply cannot be this bleak. I refuse to believe Bioware is really doing this. The ending of ME1 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won. The ending of ME2 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won.

Taken at face value, the end of ME3 throws every single thing we've done in the past five years into the wind, and makes the player watch from a distance as the entire galaxy is thrown into a technological dark age and a stellar extinction. Why would we care about a universe that no longer exists? We should we invest any more time or money into a world that will never be what we came to know and love?

Even if the ending is retconned, it doesn't make things better. Just knowing that the starchild was our real foe the entire time is so utterly mindless, contrived, and irrelevant to what we experienced in ME1 and ME2 that it cannot be forgiven. If that really is the truth, then Mass Effect simply isn't what we thought it was. And frankly, if this is what Mass Effect was supposed to be all along, I want no part of it. It's a useless, trite, overplayed cliche, so far beneath the praise I once gave this franchise that it hurts to think about.

No. There is no way to save this franchise without giving us the only explanation that makes sense. You know what it is. It was the plan all along. Too much evidence to not be true. Too many people reaching the same conclusions independently.

The indoctrination theory doesn't just save this franchise: it elevates it to one of the most powerful and compelling storytelling experiences I've ever had in my life. The fact that you managed to do more than indoctrinate Shepard - you managed to indoctrinate the players themselves - is astonishing. If that really was the end game, here, then you have won my gaming soul. But if that's true, then I'm still waiting for the rest of this story, the final chapter of Shepard's heroic journey. I paid to finish the fight, and if the indoctrination theory is true, it's not over yet.

And if it's not, then I just don't even care. I have been betrayed, and it's time for me to let go of the denial, the anger, the bargaining, and start working through the depression and emptiness until I can just move on. You can't keep teasing us like this. This must have seemed like a great plan at the time, but it has cost too much. These people believed in you. I believed in you.

Just make it right. 

This... is one of the most beautiful things I have ever read.  +1 from me.

I will be quite frank here.  I will still be incredibly angry if there is DLC in the works to finish/clear up/rework the ending.  Why was it not included?  Same goes for the import bug (which affects me too BTW, how was this missed??).  I will still be mighty angry about these things.

But the difference is, I'll get over it if Bioware makes it right.  Hell, there was enough of an outcry to get Firefly it's own movie.  I hope the same happens here.

As he said, "Just make it right."

[RobertL]

Favourite moments

• Drunk Tali and Ashley
• Getting back the Quarian home world
• Shooting Udina (I've wanted to do that for sooo long)
• Tali and Garrus, so cute.
• Liara romance
• Shooting bottles with Garrus
• Curing the Genophage (My sister and I cried when Mordin died)
• Waking up next to Aria after having three drinks at the bar, Shep's such a light weight

I liked most of the game except for the ending and not being able to stop Kai Leng on Thessia, I have a few other dislikes too but they're pretty minor