23455 réponses à ce sujet

[Apollo-XL5]

Lurchibald wrote...

DESTRAUDO wrote...

I think the ending was well crafted. I think it carried enough ambiguity to make it something worth discussing and debating. However, the ending did indeed happen. The indoctrination theories are grasping heavily at straws, totally ignore anything that would be considered a hit against the credibility of their logic.

1)The entire indoctrination theory is based on the idea that at some point shepard loses control. Some suggest that the rubble at the end means he was still in london and that it was all an indoctrination dream after he was hit by the reaper beam. Why would the reapers bother to engage in that, when they could just fire a second beam, or stomp on his half dead corpse.

2)People suggest that Anderson getting to the control room before you also indicated it is a dream/indoctrination. In the game Anderson specifically states that he was dropped off by the beam somewhere different to you. He was also in a lot better condition than you, and from the timeline of events only beat you to the control room by 30-60 seconds. The fourth wall reality though is that he had to be in the room before you because that was how they wanted the three way conversation between you two and the illusive man to play out, and by they i mean devs, not reapers.

3)As for the ending, i chose to blend organic and synthetic life. I thought the tech/synthetic pattern on jokers skin at the end was pretty awesome to boot. Why did i choose that ending? Because it was the best ending. It brought an end to all war between organics and synthetics now and in the future. I did it for the same reason Mordin sacrificed himself to cure the genophage, for the same reason legion sacrificed himself to raise the geth to a new level. If any of the people complaining played towards paragon, what makes your shepard deserving of a cheat out of the consequences of the situation. If you want that cheat, blow up all synthetic life in the galaxy. Blow up the get you saved, and blow up EDI while you are at it. You get to live at the end but you wiped out at least 2 races to do it. That to me is not the paragon option, that is two counts of genocide. Taking control of the reapers is better, you are not wiping out the geth, but you still enslaving a machine race.


The last thing i want to hit on is some of the bizarro world scenarios people are coming up with. The universe is doomed and all the fleets are trapped and they will all die of starvation. Where does this even come from? The leaps of negative logic required to come to these conclusions are staggering.
I have seen it painted as being the end of the mass effect universe. Not in the least.

4)In the mass effect universe, FTL drives are capable of doing at least 12 light years per day cruising. Any time you make a trip on the galaxy map that does not involve a mass relay you are using this drive system. While it would be long haul, you could get to the krogan dmz in about a year. You would not have to, but i will get to that in a moment. The point here is that at the very least, there would be dozens and dozens of systems within easy range of the fleet. Days travel tops, so stranded or starved for resources they are not. And that is not even considering what would happen when they have the necessity to improve the speed and efficiency of their standard ftl drives.

Not that it matters. Even presuming you took what i think is the worst ending, blowing up the reapers, the destruction of the mass relays is at best, a minor inconvenience. There are pockets of super advanced tech in the galaxy, for example where all the galaxys greatest minds gathered to build the crucible. In me2 an asari barmaid casually referred to the asari needing to get off their ass and start building mass effect relays. I think it is well within the abilities of the current cycle to get the relay system back up in a not unreasonable volume of time. I mean they built the crucible in what was in theory a couple of months tops, a mass relay is not beyond their abilities. And if you controlled the reapers or fused organic with synthetic then i would happily speculate that the reapers would have the knowledge to construct mass relays.

Yes, the ending changed the mass effect universe immeasurably. It did not end it. I would LOVE to see some prologue DLC, or a MMO set in the mass effect universe some time before or after these events but i was honestly very happy with the ending i got and i would be really disappointed if the devs cave and rewrite it.

1. Because it makes total sense that Shepard is able to breathe in rubble in space with no helmet...
2. The problem is that there is only one path to that room.
3. So Saren was right all along? http://www.youtube.c...TNEeGxg#t=1m33s
4. FTL wouldn't work

Mass Relay Codex entry wrote...
 They are enormous structures scattered throughout the stars, and can create corridors of virtually mass-free space allowing instantaneous transit between locations separated by years or even centuries of travel using conventional FTL drives.

Thats not days, also, space is very empty, they would have to reach a planet every 50 hours to discharge their FTL drives (otherwise everyone on board a ship would fry, read your codex) and larger ships have to discharge their cores more often... oh, and they would need fuel....

Hey mate

I agree with you on the FTL part and I originally liked this ending (except for the normandy part) but when I heard about the indocrination theory, and played through this again, It makes more sense.  I mean you say why would the reapers try to indocrinate shepard.  Well I am going to use babylon 5 as an example, when sheridan is taken to the Z'hadum to meet the shadows they wanted to get him over to their side,. Why because he was wheat they call a nexus, He turns one way, and the rest of the galaxy would follow.  With shepard he has managed to rally the entire galaxy to his cause and they follow him.  So it would make sense for Harbinger to try and indoctrinate him.

[aksoileau]

The closure I saw is how it closed any opportunity of me buying pointless pre ending DLC.

[Teacher50]

AJanitor wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

Caz Neerg wrote...

It just means things pick back up from where they "really" left off, the charge to the light beam.  This whole situation is like a magic show; you get an entertainer showing you something so inconsistent with reality as you know it, that despite the fact that you are seeing it, you still know it isn't really happening.  The ending as it stands is inconsistent with the reality of who Shepard is, and if taken at face value, it is inconsistent with the reality of how talented the Mass Effect team is.  It has to be indoctrination, because nothing else fits the facts.

And you guys are fine with Bioware / EA doing this? They might "pick up" on  it since it does sort of give them a "way" out but honestly, I see more problems with the Indoctrination theory that logically would mean Shepard is compromised and whatever you do is "wrong."

Better for them just to admit their mistake, based on released material, they had intended this ending to be the "real" one. They just didn't think it through and dipped thier writer's pens too deep into "space fantasy". 

The real solution. Rewrite London to reflect player choices. Re-evaluate just what EMS does and make it count. MAKE the player's choices count.

I think people are ok with it because it's the lesser of two evils. What you're suggesting might not even be possible with DLC. So people are just saying that the indoctrination ending + DLC is a lesser of an evil than a terrible ending.

True, I went over and looked at the video and this was my comment:

"Cool theory and plausible however I can't let Bioware, EA, or whoever off for not producing an ending where your choices in the game makes a difference. That's what they advertised with a brass band, cannons booming, and a 21 gun salute. Literary license goes too far here and should have been confined to the game plot, character development, and arriving at the ending. The ending should be fan based which is a business decision. As I have said many times, they blew it, leaving a mess and anger."

[Caz Neerg]

jules_vern18 wrote...
Please stop spamming everybody with this.  It's great that you have build up a desperate conspiracy theory to grasp onto in lieu of accepting this horrible ending, but please stop trying to ram it down everybody's throats.  If we don't believe the indoctrination ending, it's because we believe that new developments (especially Final Hours app) negate it as a possibility - not because we haven't been exposed to it enough.  Goddess knows we have.

Again, please stop.  It's getting sad.  Focus instead on giving to Child's Play and staying vocal on Bioware's various outlets to push for a better ending.

Sometimes, conspiracy theories fit the facts better and are more logical than the message you get from taking things at face value.  This is one of those times.  Viewing what we have as the "real" ending simply isn't consistent with the quality of the rest of the game, or the talent we know the development team has.  It requires more suspension of disbelief to accept this as the ending than it does to reject it.

[stysiaq]

bwFex wrote...

I really have been trying to let myself get over this nightmare, but since you guys promise you're listening here, I'll try to just say it all, get it all out.

I have invested more of myself into this series than almost any other video game franchise in my life. I loved this game. I believed in it. For five years, it delivered. I must have played ME1 and ME2 a dozen times each.

I remember the end of Mass Effect 2. Never before, in any video game I had ever played, did I feel like my actions really mattered. Knowing that the decisions I made and the hard work I put into ME2 had a very real, clear, obvious impact on who lived and who died was one of the most astounding feelings in the world to me. I remember when that laser hit the Normandy and Joker made a comment about how he was happy we upgraded the shields. That was amazing. Cause and effect. Work and reward.

The first time I went through, I lost Mordin, and it was gut-wrenching: watching him die because I made a bad decision was damning, heartbreaking. But it wasn't hopeless, because I knew I could go back, do better, and save him. I knew that I was in control, that my actions mattered. So that's exactly what I did. I reviewed my decisions, found my mistakes, and did everything right. I put together a plan, I worked hard to follow that plan, and I got the reward I had worked so hard for. And then, it was all for nothing.

When I started playing Mass Effect 3, I was blown away. It was perfect. Everything was perfect. It was incredible to see all of my decisions playing out in front of me, building up to new and outrageous outcomes. I was so sure that this was it, this was going to be the masterpiece that crowned an already near-perfect trilogy. With every war asset I gathered, and with every multiplayer game I won, I knew that my work would pay off, that I would be truly satisfied with the outcome of my hard work and smart decisions. Every time I acquired a new WA bonus, I couldn't wait to see how it would play out in the final battle. And then, it was all for nothing.

I wasn't expecting a perfect, happy ending with rainbows and butterflies. In fact, I think I may have been insulted if everyone made it through just fine. The Reapers are an enormous threat (although obviously not as invincible as they would like us to believe), and we should be right to anticipate heavy losses. But I never lost hope. I built alliances, I made the impossible happen to rally the galaxy together. I cured the genophage. I saved the Turians. I united the geth and the quarians. And then, it was all for nothing.

When Mordin died, it was heartwrenching, but I knew it was the right thing. His sacrifice was... perfect. It made sense. It was congruent with the dramatic themes that had been present since I very first met Wrex in ME1. It was not a cheap trick, a deus ex machina, an easy out. It was beautiful, meaningful, significant, relevant, and satisfying. It was an amazing way for an amazing character to sacrifice themself for an amazing thing. And then it was all for nothing.

When Thane died, it was tearjerking. I knew from the moment he explained his illness that one day, I'd have to deal with his death. I knew he was never going to survive the trilogy, and I knew it wouldn't be fun to watch him go. But when his son started reading the prayer, I lost it. His death was beautiful. It was significant. It was relevant. It was satisfying. It was meaningful. He died to protect Shepard, to protect the entire Citadel. He took a life he thought was unredeemable and used it to make the world a brighter place. And then it was all for nothing.

When Wrex and Eve thanked me for saving their species, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Tali set foot on her homeworld, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Javik gave his inspiring speech, I felt that I had inspired something truly great. When I activated the Citadel's arms, sat down to reminisce with Anderson one final time, I felt that I had truly accomplished something amazing. I felt that my sacrifice was meaningful. Significant. Relevant. And while still a completely unexplained deus ex machina, at least it was a little bit satisfying.

And then, just like everything else in this trilogy, it was all for nothing.

If we pretend like the indoctrination theory is false, and we're really supposed to take the ending at face value, this entire game is a lost cause. The krogans will never repopulate. The quarians will never rebuild their home world. The geth will never know what it means to be alive and independent. The salarians will never see how people can change for the better.

Instead, the quarians and turians will endure a quick, torturous extinction as they slowly starve to death, trapped in a system with no support for them. Everyone else will squabble over the scraps of Earth that haven't been completely obliterated, until the krogans drive them all to extinction and then die off without any women present. And this is all assuming that the relays didn't cause supernova-scaled extinction events simply by being destroyed, like we saw in Arrival.

And perhaps the worst part is that we don't even know. We don't know what happened to our squadmates. We didn't get any sort of catharsis, conclusion. We got five years of literary foreplay followed by a kick to the groin and a note telling us that in a couple months, we can pay Bioware $15 for them to do it to us all over again.

It's not just the abysmally depressing/sacrificial nature of the ending, either. As I've already made perfectly clear, I came into this game expecting sacrifice. When Mordin did it, it was beautiful. When Thane did it, it was beautiful. Even Verner. Stupid, misguided, idiotic Verner. Even his ridiculous sacrifice had meaning, relevance, coherence, and offered satisfaction.

No, it's not the sacrifice I have a problem with. It's the utter lack of coherence and respect for the five years of literary gold that have already been established in this franchise. We spent three games preparing to fight these reapers. I spent hours upon hours doing every side quest, picking up every war asset, maxing out my galactic readiness so that when the time came, the army I had built could make a stand, and show these Reapers that we won't go down without a fight.

In ME1, we did the impossible when we killed Sovereign. In ME2, we began to see that the Reapers aren't as immortal as they claim to be: that even they have basic needs, exploitable weaknesses. In ME3, we saw the Reapers die. We saw one get taken down by an overgrown worm. We saw one die with a few coordinated orbital bombardments. We saw several ripped apart by standard space combat. In ME1, it took three alliance fleets to kill the "invincible" Sovereign. By the end of ME3, I had assembled a galactic armada fifty times more powerful than that, and a thousand times more prepared. I never expected the fight to be easy, but I proved that we wouldn't go down without a fight, that there is always hope in unity. That's the theme we've been given for the past five years: there is hope and strength through unity. That if we work together, we can achieve the impossible.

And then we're supposed to believe that the fate of the galaxy comes down to some completely unexplained starchild asking Shepard what his favorite color is? That the army we built was all for nothing? That the squad whose loyalty we fought so hard for was all for nothing? That in the end, none of it mattered at all?

It's a poetic notion, but this isn't the place for poetry. It's one thing to rattle prose nihilistic over the course of a movie or ballad, where the audience is a passive observer, learning a lesson from the suffering and futility of a character, but that's not what Mass Effect is. Mass Effect has always been about making the player the true hero. If you really want us to all feel like we spent the past five years dumping time, energy, and emotional investment into this game just to tell us that nothing really matters, you have signed your own death certificate. Nobody pays hundreds of dollars and hours to be reminded how bleak, empty, and depressing the world can be, to be told that nothing we do matters, to be told that all of our greatest accomplishments, all of our faith, all of our work, all of our unity is for nothing.

No. It simply cannot be this bleak. I refuse to believe Bioware is really doing this. The ending of ME1 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won. The ending of ME2 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won.

Taken at face value, the end of ME3 throws every single thing we've done in the past five years into the wind, and makes the player watch from a distance as the entire galaxy is thrown into a technological dark age and a stellar extinction. Why would we care about a universe that no longer exists? We should we invest any more time or money into a world that will never be what we came to know and love?

Even if the ending is retconned, it doesn't make things better. Just knowing that the starchild was our real foe the entire time is so utterly mindless, contrived, and irrelevant to what we experienced in ME1 and ME2 that it cannot be forgiven. If that really is the truth, then Mass Effect simply isn't what we thought it was. And frankly, if this is what Mass Effect was supposed to be all along, I want no part of it. It's a useless, trite, overplayed cliche, so far beneath the praise I once gave this franchise that it hurts to think about.

No. There is no way to save this franchise without giving us the only explanation that makes sense. You know what it is. It was the plan all along. Too much evidence to not be true. Too many people reaching the same conclusions independently.

The indoctrination theory doesn't just save this franchise: it elevates it to one of the most powerful and compelling storytelling experiences I've ever had in my life. The fact that you managed to do more than indoctrinate Shepard - you managed to indoctrinate the players themselves - is astonishing. If that really was the end game, here, then you have won my gaming soul. But if that's true, then I'm still waiting for the rest of this story, the final chapter of Shepard's heroic journey. I paid to finish the fight, and if the indoctrination theory is true, it's not over yet.

And if it's not, then I just don't even care. I have been betrayed, and it's time for me to let go of the denial, the anger, the bargaining, and start working through the depression and emptiness until I can just move on. You can't keep teasing us like this. This must have seemed like a great plan at the time, but it has cost too much. These people believed in you. I believed in you.

Just make it right. 

requoted, because it is everything I think, but told the way I'm unable to.

[Genera1Nemesis]

MissMaster_2 wrote...

LarkGal wrote...

bwFex wrote...

...Nobody pays hundreds of dollars and hours to be reminded how bleak, empty, and depressing the world can be, to be told that nothing we do matters, to be told that all of our greatest accomplishments, all of our faith, all of our work, all of our unity is for nothing...

This.

This X2.

If you want to see nothing but the negative in the context of the ending, then that is what you will see.

What I saw was a galaxy freed from the Reapers and freed from their technology. If a few million people die as the galaxy transitions into a new era and perhaps they develop new technology that is even better than the relays (they now have to, but they never did before because it was soooo easy) then that is still better than the trillions that would have died if the Reapers continued.

[joiner87]

Playing ME3 with that ending made 1&2 pointless to me, might as well just done the one game Bioware, rather then have us all pay out money and invest time into them

[Doc Magnus]

jeweledleah wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Caz Neerg wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...
Except the "Indoctrination Theory" fails just as hard as the real ending when you remember the Prothean VI can detect indoctrination, and it doesn't flag when it sees you.

Fundamentally flawed logic.  Not being indoctrinated for the entire game =/= not being indoctrinated by the end of the game.

Fast indoctrination produces a husk. Shepard is most definitely not a husk.

question.  would VI sence effects of indocrination in supre early stages where it didn't take effect yet?
another question - coudln't the earnest attempt at indocrination not start untill the very end of the game?  and nighmares are just shepard feeling the guilt (its not just kid that you hear in the dreams, its also all the people you have lost over the years, their voices, VS, Thane, Mordin Legion - the more you lose the more voices you hear).  so this attempt to influence Shepards feeds of his/her fears, guilt, hopes, something Harbinger may be pulling directly out of the subcontious.. which will also explain the form Catalyst takes.

in other words - nightmares?  guilt.  last sequence?  indocrination attempt .

There's definitely something to the idea that Shepherd is being indoctrinated. Right after Shepherd says "What do you need me to do?", his arms and body are seemingly covered by a tar-black substance (at least in my playthrough) that I initially assumed was blood. Now I'm wondering if that wasn't Shep turning into a husk - the  effect of a Harbinger rapid indoctrination attempt that is somehow subverted by the 'Starchild' A.I. speaking into his mind. 

As for the Mass relays being destroyed...I hated that. But for some reason I've been flashing back to Legion's statement in ME2 regarding technolog. Legion says in one of the convos that one's culture tends to develop along the pathways of another culture's if they adopt the former's technology as their own. Because the current cycle (and an unknowable number of previous cycles) had chosen to develop technology culled from those who came before (right up to the tech of the relays themselves), they were essentially doomed to walk in the same failed footprints of those earlier races. Only in the synthesis ending is there finally a chance to break free of the past's hold and move foward into an unknowable future.

That's not to say that the endings still aren't lacking; they are. I shouldn't have to guess quite so hard to make sense of what's going on after 5 years of storytelling...

Modifié par Doc Magnus, 16 mars 2012 - 06:00 .

[TheRealMithril]

FTL (*faster* than light) makes it possible to cross distances at almost instant travel time. The issue is time outside the ship, and how much faster you can make the ship travel. But this is sci-fi, and some inventor could probably get around that whole time problem. Tachyon tunnels for instance, but I digress. The problem as I see it, is that I view the Relays as an integral part of the Mass Effect universe. It's like taking away the force from Star Wars. It's that bad.

[Lurchibald]

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

Lurchibald wrote...

DESTRAUDO wrote...

I think the ending was well crafted. I think it carried enough ambiguity to make it something worth discussing and debating. However, the ending did indeed happen. The indoctrination theories are grasping heavily at straws, totally ignore anything that would be considered a hit against the credibility of their logic.

1)The entire indoctrination theory is based on the idea that at some point shepard loses control. Some suggest that the rubble at the end means he was still in london and that it was all an indoctrination dream after he was hit by the reaper beam. Why would the reapers bother to engage in that, when they could just fire a second beam, or stomp on his half dead corpse.

2)People suggest that Anderson getting to the control room before you also indicated it is a dream/indoctrination. In the game Anderson specifically states that he was dropped off by the beam somewhere different to you. He was also in a lot better condition than you, and from the timeline of events only beat you to the control room by 30-60 seconds. The fourth wall reality though is that he had to be in the room before you because that was how they wanted the three way conversation between you two and the illusive man to play out, and by they i mean devs, not reapers.

3)As for the ending, i chose to blend organic and synthetic life. I thought the tech/synthetic pattern on jokers skin at the end was pretty awesome to boot. Why did i choose that ending? Because it was the best ending. It brought an end to all war between organics and synthetics now and in the future. I did it for the same reason Mordin sacrificed himself to cure the genophage, for the same reason legion sacrificed himself to raise the geth to a new level. If any of the people complaining played towards paragon, what makes your shepard deserving of a cheat out of the consequences of the situation. If you want that cheat, blow up all synthetic life in the galaxy. Blow up the get you saved, and blow up EDI while you are at it. You get to live at the end but you wiped out at least 2 races to do it. That to me is not the paragon option, that is two counts of genocide. Taking control of the reapers is better, you are not wiping out the geth, but you still enslaving a machine race.


The last thing i want to hit on is some of the bizarro world scenarios people are coming up with. The universe is doomed and all the fleets are trapped and they will all die of starvation. Where does this even come from? The leaps of negative logic required to come to these conclusions are staggering.
I have seen it painted as being the end of the mass effect universe. Not in the least.

4)In the mass effect universe, FTL drives are capable of doing at least 12 light years per day cruising. Any time you make a trip on the galaxy map that does not involve a mass relay you are using this drive system. While it would be long haul, you could get to the krogan dmz in about a year. You would not have to, but i will get to that in a moment. The point here is that at the very least, there would be dozens and dozens of systems within easy range of the fleet. Days travel tops, so stranded or starved for resources they are not. And that is not even considering what would happen when they have the necessity to improve the speed and efficiency of their standard ftl drives.

Not that it matters. Even presuming you took what i think is the worst ending, blowing up the reapers, the destruction of the mass relays is at best, a minor inconvenience. There are pockets of super advanced tech in the galaxy, for example where all the galaxys greatest minds gathered to build the crucible. In me2 an asari barmaid casually referred to the asari needing to get off their ass and start building mass effect relays. I think it is well within the abilities of the current cycle to get the relay system back up in a not unreasonable volume of time. I mean they built the crucible in what was in theory a couple of months tops, a mass relay is not beyond their abilities. And if you controlled the reapers or fused organic with synthetic then i would happily speculate that the reapers would have the knowledge to construct mass relays.

Yes, the ending changed the mass effect universe immeasurably. It did not end it. I would LOVE to see some prologue DLC, or a MMO set in the mass effect universe some time before or after these events but i was honestly very happy with the ending i got and i would be really disappointed if the devs cave and rewrite it.

1. Because it makes total sense that Shepard is able to breathe in rubble in space with no helmet...
2. The problem is that there is only one path to that room.
3. So Saren was right all along? http://www.youtube.c...TNEeGxg#t=1m33s
4. FTL wouldn't work

Mass Relay Codex entry wrote...
 They are enormous structures scattered throughout the stars, and can create corridors of virtually mass-free space allowing instantaneous transit between locations separated by years or even centuries of travel using conventional FTL drives.

Thats not days, also, space is very empty, they would have to reach a planet every 50 hours to discharge their FTL drives (otherwise everyone on board a ship would fry, read your codex) and larger ships have to discharge their cores more often... oh, and they would need fuel....

Hey mate

I agree with you on the FTL part and I originally liked this ending (except for the normandy part) but when I heard about the indocrination theory, and played through this again, It makes more sense.  I mean you say why would the reapers try to indocrinate shepard.  Well I am going to use babylon 5 as an example, when sheridan is taken to the Z'hadum to meet the shadows they wanted to get him over to their side,. Why because he was wheat they call a nexus, He turns one way, and the rest of the galaxy would follow.  With shepard he has managed to rally the entire galaxy to his cause and they follow him.  So it would make sense for Harbinger to try and indoctrinate him.

Were you meaning to respond to me? because they were all rebuttles to what DESTRAUDO said against the indoc theory

[Teacher50]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

MissMaster_2 wrote...

LarkGal wrote...

bwFex wrote...

...Nobody pays hundreds of dollars and hours to be reminded how bleak, empty, and depressing the world can be, to be told that nothing we do matters, to be told that all of our greatest accomplishments, all of our faith, all of our work, all of our unity is for nothing...

This.

This X2.

If you want to see nothing but the negative in the context of the ending, then that is what you will see.

What I saw was a galaxy freed from the Reapers and freed from their technology. If a few million people die as the galaxy transitions into a new era and perhaps they develop new technology that is even better than the relays (they now have to, but they never did before because it was soooo easy) then that is still better than the trillions that would have died if the Reapers continued.

I think that is a rationalization to excuse a lousy ending... no offence intended, just my opinion.

[jeweledleah]

you know. you can like or dislike the endings. you may think they make perfect sence, or no sense whatsoever. but regardless of how you feel about them, bellow is a simple irrefutable fact.

we were promised the endings that were different from each other, that reflected the choices we made across all 3 games and that would tie up all the lose ends. I'm not just pulling this out of my butt, there are multiple interviews that can back this up with quotes.
what we got are the a, b, or c choices that basically amount to the same thing with minor differences in cutscenes, mostly explosion color. not of our choices in all 3 games had any effect on the final solution. made peace between quarians and Geth? catalyst still tells you its impossible. sped through the game letting anything and everything die, but playing some multiplayer to get your readiness up? you get the same 3 choices and you see the same exact space/land battle, and then the same exact cutscene of explosion and crushing Normandy.  no epilogue on affects your choice had, no idea who lived and who died, how are they going to get back to their systems.  too many loose ends, not enough closure

we were promised a product that wasn't delivered.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 16 mars 2012 - 06:02 .

[HectorB]

People need to stop with these crazy indoctrination theories. The ending is as it has been presented...was it presented poorly...maybe. As for myself I enjoyed how ME3 ended.

Modifié par HectorB, 16 mars 2012 - 06:03 .

[XSarenXArteriusX]

@Genera1Nemesis : yes but the context of the aftermath the galaxy is still doomed cause all the relays are gone, everyone is stranded somewhere, and it will turn into species survival, cause alot were on earth, dont forget all the ships that were still intact, the technology failed so the ships lost all power and life support, each with about 100 or so people and more, all dead, turians, asari, salarian, krogan, human, quarian, geth, all on earth when this happened everything will fall into chaos and they will kill eachother, not with technology but by survival hoarding supplies and beating eachother to death with sticks

[Genera1Nemesis]

TheRealMithril wrote...

FTL (*faster* than light) makes it possible to cross distances at almost instant travel time. The issue is time outside the ship, and how much faster you can make the ship travel. But this is sci-fi, and some inventor could probably get around that whole time problem. Tachyon tunnels for instance, but I digress. The problem as I see it, is that I view the Relays as an integral part of the Mass Effect universe. It's like taking away the force from Star Wars. It's that bad.

Ships still create mass effect fields when the use FTL, and so do biotics. The relays were a trap; and they also made everyone lazy because they were too convenient to pass up. I agree with you; there are a lot of different ways that space travel across vast distances is plausible than just the one that the Reapers designed to pigeon-hole the galaxy into the grand pit of spikes.

[magnutz06]

Shep called in an asset but all he got was a busy signal maybe a galaxys worth of assets are repainting the crucible while he runs at a beam

[Apollo-XL5]

Yeah mate, I think. anyway I am sure that the prothean VI did mention that it sensed indoctrinated minds nearby, at the time I thought that it meant the cerberus forces, but now I am not sure.

[Genera1Nemesis]

XSarenXArteriusX wrote...

@Genera1Nemesis : yes but the context of the aftermath the galaxy is still doomed cause all the relays are gone, everyone is stranded somewhere, and it will turn into species survival, cause alot were on earth, dont forget all the ships that were still intact, the technology failed so the ships lost all power and life support, each with about 100 or so people and more, all dead, turians, asari, salarian, krogan, human, quarian, geth, all on earth when this happened everything will fall into chaos and they will kill eachother, not with technology but by survival hoarding supplies and beating eachother to death with sticks

Or they stand united because of Sheperd's grand sacrifice in bringing them all together? They have the technology; all they would have to do is build upon it. This why I don't see the ending as 'doom and gloom". Shep freed them from the cycle, so now the galaxy can stand on its own merits, instead of the one path that was chosen for them. (If we're talking about lack of choice, the relays really reflect that)

[ThatsMRDropShot]

Why cant bioware just come out and admit the truth they got it wrong big time with the lame ending for ME3 the game itself up to that point is one of the best games i have played but thats were the game loses all credability bioware said when the game was ended there would be no unanswered questions well there are ie why dose the normandy crash on some random planet / how did the sqaud i took with me get on the normandy. the list goes on that is why i think this cant be the real end to one of the best games ive played there as to be more to come if not then the only explanation left is that bioware lied to us . but they need to tell us one way or the other and they need to do it sooner rather than later. The fans deserve better and the game deserves better tell us ur gona change this through some kind of dlc or something if not then although i have enjoyed previous bioware titles ie dragon age/jade empire and others i will seriously have to think weather i will be buying the next bioware game and i doubt i will be alone. So help us out bioware tell us ur gona fix this tell us there is more to come some that this isnt how it ends As for my favourite moment from the game there are to many to name but any with garrus or wrex were fun and finding ashley drunk

[forthary]

I think probably one of my more favorite moments with the male Commander Shepard in ME3 was during the Geth Dreadnought mission with Tali as his romantic interest. It was kinda funny because whenever he would begin to speak, he would be like, "Well..." "Yeah..." "Uhh..." it introduced a side of Shepard nobody has seen until now.

I also loved these four words from the Male Shepard: "You...big stupid...jellyfish."

But anyways, regarding the ending...since you are listening, I will tell you this: It lacks closure at the moment. Right now, you can only pick 3 endings, and hope that in one of them, the commander isn't taking his last breath. All the decisions I've made in all 3 games are just thrown away. What of the other races? My love interest, if I had one? The normandy's crew? I had hoped to finish this game with bright satisfaction...instead, I am ending up going crazy over it because I can tell there's more to the story and we have no idea when it'll be told.

If you do end up making a conclusion to the game, make it more like a 'retirement' thing; Commander Shepard recovers from his injuries, and all of the crew has some sort of conclusion you can interact with. If Shepard has a love interest, the interactivity and the conclusion details should be greater, and obviously conclusive.

Beach settings would be a great addition to the conclusion DLC, as I thought the beach portrayed during Jacob's loyalty mission was beautiful. However, not every alien species wants to go down to the beach, so I think there should be the option of different settings: Maybe a high tower overlooking a beautiful jungle landscape, deep jungle by a grand waterfall, a beautiful, deep forest, or something different.

If anything, I believe that you 'should' still have the option of doing things in Mass Effect 3. After all, the war has taken its toll on everyone, and chaos is bound to erupt. The one problem I faced in Mass Effect 2 was I 'ran out' of enemies to kill. To some degree, I should be able to find some enemies and unload on them whenever I feel a bit itchy for combat.

Overall, I just want a satisfactory conclusion. Shepard isn't immortal; he will die eventually, as will everyone else seen in the game. While every decision Shepard makes shouldn't be kept for a very long time, some should, such as the curing of the genophage, the peace made between the geth and quarians, and more. I was very disappointed at how incomplete the ending was; I liked how Shepard died, but I still want to explore the possibility of when he survives.

Please Bioware, make the game end right and well.

[Klijpope]

 I'm in two minds about the ending. I like the fact it comes down to a choice, and a choice that is made then and there without needing to reflect past decisions (as the entire game so far has already done that), and I even like the choices, but it still feels abrupt. And I missed the option to be defiant with the Catalyst (why all the C-words? Cipher/Conduit/Collector/Crucible/Catalyst), and the execution felt a bit pat.

It's the bit with Joker out-running the wavefront that seems odd. 

BTW, the mass relays did not get destroyed in the same way as in Arrival. That asteroid released all the energy pent up inside, hence the supernova like explosion. The 'Shepard-Wave', for want of a better term, is not the same - imagine the energies needed to transmit all that across the galaxy. Therefore, instead of that energy becoming a supernova, it becomes a beam, and the relays just disintergrate when the wave detonation happens. And also, this energy is not the same as raw energy - it is doing whatever its colour means it is doing.

Also, not every system has a mass relay.

So, solar systems are not destroyed, and the survivors still have FTL, albeit at a much shorter range. So Rannoch survives (only the heavy fleet joins you), and the Krogan survive (Wrex has already made the babies), etc. Citadel civilisation falls, but everyone is not knocked back to the stone age.

However, all of the above is not immediately obvious, and it needs to be made clear - otherwise, confusion ensues.
So, I kinda like the ideas behind the endings, not the execution. Then again, I have been swayed by much of the argument going on, and I would love the indoctrination theory to be true.

The main misgiving I have though, is while the sort of ending they were going far (and did not quite get right) is good for stories like Inception, or any standalone film, Mass Effect is an epic, and epics always need to at least give you a little closure on the rest of the characters - more than 'they step off the Normandy near a tropical beach'. It would be like if LOTR ended at Mount Doom, with Frodo and Sam choking in the hot dust, watching Barad-Dur crumble but with no idea if the rest of the Fellowship were still alive or not.

Basically, some of what happened needs to be more explicit, especially Joker et-al on Alpha Centauri IV or wherever. 

It will NEVER make me hate the games though. ME3 is just too good all the way through for a disappointing denouement to ruin it for me. It really is a narrative triumph in many ways, and once the dust has settled, maybe we can get back to discussing the other 99% of this fantastic game.

Finally, the childish tantruming vs BioWare and especially Casey Hudson and Marc Walters is, frankly, embarrassing.

It is easier to take arguments seriously if they have perspective. Many in this thread, while I sympathise with their points, do not show any perspective in this matter.

Modifié par Klijpope, 16 mars 2012 - 06:07 .

[mdolsen]

stysiaq wrote...

bwFex wrote...

I really have been trying to let myself get over this nightmare, but since you guys promise you're listening here, I'll try to just say it all, get it all out.

I have invested more of myself into this series than almost any other video game franchise in my life. I loved this game. I believed in it. For five years, it delivered. I must have played ME1 and ME2 a dozen times each.

I remember the end of Mass Effect 2. Never before, in any video game I had ever played, did I feel like my actions really mattered. Knowing that the decisions I made and the hard work I put into ME2 had a very real, clear, obvious impact on who lived and who died was one of the most astounding feelings in the world to me. I remember when that laser hit the Normandy and Joker made a comment about how he was happy we upgraded the shields. That was amazing. Cause and effect. Work and reward.

The first time I went through, I lost Mordin, and it was gut-wrenching: watching him die because I made a bad decision was damning, heartbreaking. But it wasn't hopeless, because I knew I could go back, do better, and save him. I knew that I was in control, that my actions mattered. So that's exactly what I did. I reviewed my decisions, found my mistakes, and did everything right. I put together a plan, I worked hard to follow that plan, and I got the reward I had worked so hard for. And then, it was all for nothing.

When I started playing Mass Effect 3, I was blown away. It was perfect. Everything was perfect. It was incredible to see all of my decisions playing out in front of me, building up to new and outrageous outcomes. I was so sure that this was it, this was going to be the masterpiece that crowned an already near-perfect trilogy. With every war asset I gathered, and with every multiplayer game I won, I knew that my work would pay off, that I would be truly satisfied with the outcome of my hard work and smart decisions. Every time I acquired a new WA bonus, I couldn't wait to see how it would play out in the final battle. And then, it was all for nothing.

I wasn't expecting a perfect, happy ending with rainbows and butterflies. In fact, I think I may have been insulted if everyone made it through just fine. The Reapers are an enormous threat (although obviously not as invincible as they would like us to believe), and we should be right to anticipate heavy losses. But I never lost hope. I built alliances, I made the impossible happen to rally the galaxy together. I cured the genophage. I saved the Turians. I united the geth and the quarians. And then, it was all for nothing.

When Mordin died, it was heartwrenching, but I knew it was the right thing. His sacrifice was... perfect. It made sense. It was congruent with the dramatic themes that had been present since I very first met Wrex in ME1. It was not a cheap trick, a deus ex machina, an easy out. It was beautiful, meaningful, significant, relevant, and satisfying. It was an amazing way for an amazing character to sacrifice themself for an amazing thing. And then it was all for nothing.

When Thane died, it was tearjerking. I knew from the moment he explained his illness that one day, I'd have to deal with his death. I knew he was never going to survive the trilogy, and I knew it wouldn't be fun to watch him go. But when his son started reading the prayer, I lost it. His death was beautiful. It was significant. It was relevant. It was satisfying. It was meaningful. He died to protect Shepard, to protect the entire Citadel. He took a life he thought was unredeemable and used it to make the world a brighter place. And then it was all for nothing.

When Wrex and Eve thanked me for saving their species, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Tali set foot on her homeworld, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Javik gave his inspiring speech, I felt that I had inspired something truly great. When I activated the Citadel's arms, sat down to reminisce with Anderson one final time, I felt that I had truly accomplished something amazing. I felt that my sacrifice was meaningful. Significant. Relevant. And while still a completely unexplained deus ex machina, at least it was a little bit satisfying.

And then, just like everything else in this trilogy, it was all for nothing.

If we pretend like the indoctrination theory is false, and we're really supposed to take the ending at face value, this entire game is a lost cause. The krogans will never repopulate. The quarians will never rebuild their home world. The geth will never know what it means to be alive and independent. The salarians will never see how people can change for the better.

Instead, the quarians and turians will endure a quick, torturous extinction as they slowly starve to death, trapped in a system with no support for them. Everyone else will squabble over the scraps of Earth that haven't been completely obliterated, until the krogans drive them all to extinction and then die off without any women present. And this is all assuming that the relays didn't cause supernova-scaled extinction events simply by being destroyed, like we saw in Arrival.

And perhaps the worst part is that we don't even know. We don't know what happened to our squadmates. We didn't get any sort of catharsis, conclusion. We got five years of literary foreplay followed by a kick to the groin and a note telling us that in a couple months, we can pay Bioware $15 for them to do it to us all over again.

It's not just the abysmally depressing/sacrificial nature of the ending, either. As I've already made perfectly clear, I came into this game expecting sacrifice. When Mordin did it, it was beautiful. When Thane did it, it was beautiful. Even Verner. Stupid, misguided, idiotic Verner. Even his ridiculous sacrifice had meaning, relevance, coherence, and offered satisfaction.

No, it's not the sacrifice I have a problem with. It's the utter lack of coherence and respect for the five years of literary gold that have already been established in this franchise. We spent three games preparing to fight these reapers. I spent hours upon hours doing every side quest, picking up every war asset, maxing out my galactic readiness so that when the time came, the army I had built could make a stand, and show these Reapers that we won't go down without a fight.

In ME1, we did the impossible when we killed Sovereign. In ME2, we began to see that the Reapers aren't as immortal as they claim to be: that even they have basic needs, exploitable weaknesses. In ME3, we saw the Reapers die. We saw one get taken down by an overgrown worm. We saw one die with a few coordinated orbital bombardments. We saw several ripped apart by standard space combat. In ME1, it took three alliance fleets to kill the "invincible" Sovereign. By the end of ME3, I had assembled a galactic armada fifty times more powerful than that, and a thousand times more prepared. I never expected the fight to be easy, but I proved that we wouldn't go down without a fight, that there is always hope in unity. That's the theme we've been given for the past five years: there is hope and strength through unity. That if we work together, we can achieve the impossible.

And then we're supposed to believe that the fate of the galaxy comes down to some completely unexplained starchild asking Shepard what his favorite color is? That the army we built was all for nothing? That the squad whose loyalty we fought so hard for was all for nothing? That in the end, none of it mattered at all?

It's a poetic notion, but this isn't the place for poetry. It's one thing to rattle prose nihilistic over the course of a movie or ballad, where the audience is a passive observer, learning a lesson from the suffering and futility of a character, but that's not what Mass Effect is. Mass Effect has always been about making the player the true hero. If you really want us to all feel like we spent the past five years dumping time, energy, and emotional investment into this game just to tell us that nothing really matters, you have signed your own death certificate. Nobody pays hundreds of dollars and hours to be reminded how bleak, empty, and depressing the world can be, to be told that nothing we do matters, to be told that all of our greatest accomplishments, all of our faith, all of our work, all of our unity is for nothing.

No. It simply cannot be this bleak. I refuse to believe Bioware is really doing this. The ending of ME1 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won. The ending of ME2 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won.

Taken at face value, the end of ME3 throws every single thing we've done in the past five years into the wind, and makes the player watch from a distance as the entire galaxy is thrown into a technological dark age and a stellar extinction. Why would we care about a universe that no longer exists? We should we invest any more time or money into a world that will never be what we came to know and love?

Even if the ending is retconned, it doesn't make things better. Just knowing that the starchild was our real foe the entire time is so utterly mindless, contrived, and irrelevant to what we experienced in ME1 and ME2 that it cannot be forgiven. If that really is the truth, then Mass Effect simply isn't what we thought it was. And frankly, if this is what Mass Effect was supposed to be all along, I want no part of it. It's a useless, trite, overplayed cliche, so far beneath the praise I once gave this franchise that it hurts to think about.

No. There is no way to save this franchise without giving us the only explanation that makes sense. You know what it is. It was the plan all along. Too much evidence to not be true. Too many people reaching the same conclusions independently.

The indoctrination theory doesn't just save this franchise: it elevates it to one of the most powerful and compelling storytelling experiences I've ever had in my life. The fact that you managed to do more than indoctrinate Shepard - you managed to indoctrinate the players themselves - is astonishing. If that really was the end game, here, then you have won my gaming soul. But if that's true, then I'm still waiting for the rest of this story, the final chapter of Shepard's heroic journey. I paid to finish the fight, and if the indoctrination theory is true, it's not over yet.

And if it's not, then I just don't even care. I have been betrayed, and it's time for me to let go of the denial, the anger, the bargaining, and start working through the depression and emptiness until I can just move on. You can't keep teasing us like this. This must have seemed like a great plan at the time, but it has cost too much. These people believed in you. I believed in you.

Just make it right. 

requoted, because it is everything I think, but told the way I'm unable to.

Here here.

[Himmelstor]

I loved the entire trilogy save the last ten minutes...
...hell's bells I didn't even mind shooting TIM myself.

That said, standouts:

The Reveal of Sovereign. (honestly one of the best villain reveals in any history of the medium.  The first time I played through ME1, I went from sitting in my chair content I was kicking ass to a 'holy crap' moment I have no memory of anything before or since shocking me that much.)

"I am the very model of a...." (Both times, once for the humor, the other for the tragedy.)

Tali romance in both ME2 and ME3. (I was not among those calling for a Tali romance from game one, but the writing and Sroka's voice acting sold me on it. Hard.)

KALROS, MOTHER OF ALL THRESHER MAWS VS. MINI-REAPER! (Do I really need to explain this?)

On that same note SHEPARD STARING DOWN A MINI-REAPER WITH A TARGETING LASER! (Again, self-explanatory.)

Garrus having your back all the way through. (...no. That covers it.)

There are more! I can't list them all without this taking up the page!

Which is why the ending of the trilogy felt like being gutted and fileted like a fish. I am unsatisfied, but I will go back to Bioware for more games (with some caution.)  I did not hate Dragon Age II, and hope the eventual Dragon Age III kicks just as much ass as DA:O.

But Bioware...I've been asking the people on my Xbox Live friends list from this forum.  None of them find the current ending in any way acceptable.  Some of them already sold ME3 and won't buy from you again.
Your company is the only one I am a fan of. Other than that, I like games - not developers.
Don't drive us away like this. Please.

[magnutz06]

Another fav moment is pimpin out the citadel , now they can protect themselves..Wait, whats that it was all pointless?..sorry Bailey we tried

Modifié par magnutz06, 16 mars 2012 - 06:10 .

[Gringo2585]

My favorite part was basically everything up until the end. My main shep romanced liara and stayed true and the romance was very well done. My bromance with garrus was awesome...the sniper challenge was a real bonding thing.

However, I am with the majority of other players in saying that the ending made me feel angry and somwhat depressed that everything I did throughout 3 games amounted to the same ending and were ultimately for nothing. We need closure, we need the 16 endings we were promised, and if we did everything perfect in the game then we deserve a perfect ending with the characters weve become attached to.