23455 réponses à ce sujet

[KZavi]

mdolsen wrote...

stysiaq wrote...

bwFex wrote...

I really have been trying to let myself get over this nightmare, but since you guys promise you're listening here, I'll try to just say it all, get it all out.

I have invested more of myself into this series than almost any other video game franchise in my life. I loved this game. I believed in it. For five years, it delivered. I must have played ME1 and ME2 a dozen times each.

I remember the end of Mass Effect 2. Never before, in any video game I had ever played, did I feel like my actions really mattered. Knowing that the decisions I made and the hard work I put into ME2 had a very real, clear, obvious impact on who lived and who died was one of the most astounding feelings in the world to me. I remember when that laser hit the Normandy and Joker made a comment about how he was happy we upgraded the shields. That was amazing. Cause and effect. Work and reward.

The first time I went through, I lost Mordin, and it was gut-wrenching: watching him die because I made a bad decision was damning, heartbreaking. But it wasn't hopeless, because I knew I could go back, do better, and save him. I knew that I was in control, that my actions mattered. So that's exactly what I did. I reviewed my decisions, found my mistakes, and did everything right. I put together a plan, I worked hard to follow that plan, and I got the reward I had worked so hard for. And then, it was all for nothing.

When I started playing Mass Effect 3, I was blown away. It was perfect. Everything was perfect. It was incredible to see all of my decisions playing out in front of me, building up to new and outrageous outcomes. I was so sure that this was it, this was going to be the masterpiece that crowned an already near-perfect trilogy. With every war asset I gathered, and with every multiplayer game I won, I knew that my work would pay off, that I would be truly satisfied with the outcome of my hard work and smart decisions. Every time I acquired a new WA bonus, I couldn't wait to see how it would play out in the final battle. And then, it was all for nothing.

I wasn't expecting a perfect, happy ending with rainbows and butterflies. In fact, I think I may have been insulted if everyone made it through just fine. The Reapers are an enormous threat (although obviously not as invincible as they would like us to believe), and we should be right to anticipate heavy losses. But I never lost hope. I built alliances, I made the impossible happen to rally the galaxy together. I cured the genophage. I saved the Turians. I united the geth and the quarians. And then, it was all for nothing.

When Mordin died, it was heartwrenching, but I knew it was the right thing. His sacrifice was... perfect. It made sense. It was congruent with the dramatic themes that had been present since I very first met Wrex in ME1. It was not a cheap trick, a deus ex machina, an easy out. It was beautiful, meaningful, significant, relevant, and satisfying. It was an amazing way for an amazing character to sacrifice themself for an amazing thing. And then it was all for nothing.

When Thane died, it was tearjerking. I knew from the moment he explained his illness that one day, I'd have to deal with his death. I knew he was never going to survive the trilogy, and I knew it wouldn't be fun to watch him go. But when his son started reading the prayer, I lost it. His death was beautiful. It was significant. It was relevant. It was satisfying. It was meaningful. He died to protect Shepard, to protect the entire Citadel. He took a life he thought was unredeemable and used it to make the world a brighter place. And then it was all for nothing.

When Wrex and Eve thanked me for saving their species, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Tali set foot on her homeworld, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Javik gave his inspiring speech, I felt that I had inspired something truly great. When I activated the Citadel's arms, sat down to reminisce with Anderson one final time, I felt that I had truly accomplished something amazing. I felt that my sacrifice was meaningful. Significant. Relevant. And while still a completely unexplained deus ex machina, at least it was a little bit satisfying.

And then, just like everything else in this trilogy, it was all for nothing.

If we pretend like the indoctrination theory is false, and we're really supposed to take the ending at face value, this entire game is a lost cause. The krogans will never repopulate. The quarians will never rebuild their home world. The geth will never know what it means to be alive and independent. The salarians will never see how people can change for the better.

Instead, the quarians and turians will endure a quick, torturous extinction as they slowly starve to death, trapped in a system with no support for them. Everyone else will squabble over the scraps of Earth that haven't been completely obliterated, until the krogans drive them all to extinction and then die off without any women present. And this is all assuming that the relays didn't cause supernova-scaled extinction events simply by being destroyed, like we saw in Arrival.

And perhaps the worst part is that we don't even know. We don't know what happened to our squadmates. We didn't get any sort of catharsis, conclusion. We got five years of literary foreplay followed by a kick to the groin and a note telling us that in a couple months, we can pay Bioware $15 for them to do it to us all over again.

It's not just the abysmally depressing/sacrificial nature of the ending, either. As I've already made perfectly clear, I came into this game expecting sacrifice. When Mordin did it, it was beautiful. When Thane did it, it was beautiful. Even Verner. Stupid, misguided, idiotic Verner. Even his ridiculous sacrifice had meaning, relevance, coherence, and offered satisfaction.

No, it's not the sacrifice I have a problem with. It's the utter lack of coherence and respect for the five years of literary gold that have already been established in this franchise. We spent three games preparing to fight these reapers. I spent hours upon hours doing every side quest, picking up every war asset, maxing out my galactic readiness so that when the time came, the army I had built could make a stand, and show these Reapers that we won't go down without a fight.

In ME1, we did the impossible when we killed Sovereign. In ME2, we began to see that the Reapers aren't as immortal as they claim to be: that even they have basic needs, exploitable weaknesses. In ME3, we saw the Reapers die. We saw one get taken down by an overgrown worm. We saw one die with a few coordinated orbital bombardments. We saw several ripped apart by standard space combat. In ME1, it took three alliance fleets to kill the "invincible" Sovereign. By the end of ME3, I had assembled a galactic armada fifty times more powerful than that, and a thousand times more prepared. I never expected the fight to be easy, but I proved that we wouldn't go down without a fight, that there is always hope in unity. That's the theme we've been given for the past five years: there is hope and strength through unity. That if we work together, we can achieve the impossible.

And then we're supposed to believe that the fate of the galaxy comes down to some completely unexplained starchild asking Shepard what his favorite color is? That the army we built was all for nothing? That the squad whose loyalty we fought so hard for was all for nothing? That in the end, none of it mattered at all?

It's a poetic notion, but this isn't the place for poetry. It's one thing to rattle prose nihilistic over the course of a movie or ballad, where the audience is a passive observer, learning a lesson from the suffering and futility of a character, but that's not what Mass Effect is. Mass Effect has always been about making the player the true hero. If you really want us to all feel like we spent the past five years dumping time, energy, and emotional investment into this game just to tell us that nothing really matters, you have signed your own death certificate. Nobody pays hundreds of dollars and hours to be reminded how bleak, empty, and depressing the world can be, to be told that nothing we do matters, to be told that all of our greatest accomplishments, all of our faith, all of our work, all of our unity is for nothing.

No. It simply cannot be this bleak. I refuse to believe Bioware is really doing this. The ending of ME1 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won. The ending of ME2 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won.

Taken at face value, the end of ME3 throws every single thing we've done in the past five years into the wind, and makes the player watch from a distance as the entire galaxy is thrown into a technological dark age and a stellar extinction. Why would we care about a universe that no longer exists? We should we invest any more time or money into a world that will never be what we came to know and love?

Even if the ending is retconned, it doesn't make things better. Just knowing that the starchild was our real foe the entire time is so utterly mindless, contrived, and irrelevant to what we experienced in ME1 and ME2 that it cannot be forgiven. If that really is the truth, then Mass Effect simply isn't what we thought it was. And frankly, if this is what Mass Effect was supposed to be all along, I want no part of it. It's a useless, trite, overplayed cliche, so far beneath the praise I once gave this franchise that it hurts to think about.

No. There is no way to save this franchise without giving us the only explanation that makes sense. You know what it is. It was the plan all along. Too much evidence to not be true. Too many people reaching the same conclusions independently.

The indoctrination theory doesn't just save this franchise: it elevates it to one of the most powerful and compelling storytelling experiences I've ever had in my life. The fact that you managed to do more than indoctrinate Shepard - you managed to indoctrinate the players themselves - is astonishing. If that really was the end game, here, then you have won my gaming soul. But if that's true, then I'm still waiting for the rest of this story, the final chapter of Shepard's heroic journey. I paid to finish the fight, and if the indoctrination theory is true, it's not over yet.

And if it's not, then I just don't even care. I have been betrayed, and it's time for me to let go of the denial, the anger, the bargaining, and start working through the depression and emptiness until I can just move on. You can't keep teasing us like this. This must have seemed like a great plan at the time, but it has cost too much. These people believed in you. I believed in you.

Just make it right. 

requoted, because it is everything I think, but told the way I'm unable to.

Here here.

My thoughts exactly.
Please BioWare, listen to your customers. Don't let us down again.

[Eugenious]

I thought the story was quite interesting. Story Arc wise, say I like how it ended (depending on one of the 3 choices you made)

However, as contradicting as it sounds, I was not amused with the gameplay ending. This is a game. not a movie (Although I liked the cut scenes though). I just think Bioware could have improved the game play ALOT. The gameplay ending was short, not climatic, and completely ruined my hope for a choice driven ending (Yes there are 3 "choices" but those choices didnt reflect any choices you made during the game. They were the common choices you may expect a game to make, be good or bad etc. It only encompassed the extremes). I really didnt think it was the end of the game till all the cut scenes started playing.

If that doesn't seem to make sense to anyone. Think about ME2. That ending was epic. The suicide mission gameplay was am epic way to conclude that game (even with the DLC after). I don't think ME3 even stood anywhere close to the satisfaction ME2 gave, especially with the additional DLC (lair of the shadow broker etc).

Besides that, another negative note, I think that that the major story arc decisions should have had a larger role in ME3. I didnt feel like they did much, maybe it was just my dislike for the War Asset system, but I felt like it could be better (I understand it woulda been hard to program all those in, but it woulda made this game significantly more epic).

Now the positives. I really like story arc for the geth and the Quarians. That was probably my most favourite aspect in ME3. I chose the geth because quarians are just plain dumb. Their whole hierarchy system I find pointless and nonsensical. I also really liked the incorporation of other synthetics like the Banshee (god are they scary), Brutes and Marauders. Cause if I were only to fight more husks.....I woulda been pissed. Also. what happened to the Scion? That was a fun kill. I also never understood why Banshees were harder to kill than the Harvesters. Harvesters just seem like they should be harder to kill, but they are fairly easy.

Yeah and finally, I would just like to say that I remember reading somewhere that Bioware thought it was cheessy to have a final boss fight. I really dont think thats as chessy as the 3 options you are given at the very end.

[Rulycar]

Pssst ... over here.

Element Zero is a sentient being.
Advanced organics have been hurting Element Zero;
... they always hurt Element Zero.
The Element Zero Avatar (blue glowy starchild) made the reapers,
... so he wouldn't have to keep killing advanced organic civilizations.
Now, instead of blowing them up with dark energy induced supernovae,
... he preserves them via reaper.

Don't tell anyone I told you, though.

[TheRealMithril]

UKillMeLongTime wrote...

Basically it ended but without the Fallout type of 'what happened' in requards to your choices in all major plots

Correct, this ends with a middle index finger flip. 

[cinderburster]

jules_vern18 wrote...

Caz Neerg wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...
Please stop spamming everybody with this.  It's great that you have build up a desperate conspiracy theory to grasp onto in lieu of accepting this horrible ending, but please stop trying to ram it down everybody's throats.  If we don't believe the indoctrination ending, it's because we believe that new developments (especially Final Hours app) negate it as a possibility - not because we haven't been exposed to it enough.  Goddess knows we have.

Again, please stop.  It's getting sad.  Focus instead on giving to Child's Play and staying vocal on Bioware's various outlets to push for a better ending.

Sometimes, conspiracy theories fit the facts better and are more logical than the message you get from taking things at face value.  This is one of those times.  Viewing what we have as the "real" ending simply isn't consistent with the quality of the rest of the game, or the talent we know the development team has.  It requires more suspension of disbelief to accept this as the ending than it does to reject it.

Again, you have a right to believe whatever you want to believe.  Here's my take:  we have now seen the lead writer's ending notes via the Final Hours app.  Those notes show exactly the three endings we got.  What they don't show is anything whatsoever about indoctrination.  You can still grasp onto it if you want; all I'm asking is that you please stop spamming the forums with it.  You have your threads and can make more, but stop trying to hijack others.  That is all.

What if that page isn't the whole story?  It's one page of notes.  For all we know that was the real ending, but we also can't say for certain that it's the only page of notes he wrote.  Maybe it's the only one they'd let the app maker have because they don't want to give something away?

Wild speculation (HA, exactly what they wanted) aside, until Bioware gives an official statement we can't know one way or the other.

[TheRealMithril]

and another bwFex'ter.

[Apollo-XL5]

I can't choose one moment out the game, I enjoyed every minute of it.

[bkp360]

bioware has no indoctroniation theory. The reason they don't is that would have had to be one of several possible plot lines. That would have taken money and resources. They obviously didn't have much of either for the ending and key details as it was shifted to MP.

No the ending is what is was. Now they (and all the fans) and trying some from of spin doctoring to make it better.

[Himmelstor]

Archonsg wrote...

Here's something that's bothering me about this thread.

Where are all the old Talimancers? One would think this thread would have hit 1000 pages already.
^.^

We're here. We're on the side that wants clarity, a better ending as well.

[magnutz06]

Sheps says " Look backup from all my assets did show its a Turian getting a piggyback from a Krogan" " Nope just another brute"

[TheRealMithril]

Of course they have indoctrination.. it's even confirmed in the leaked notes yesterday.

[DESTRAUDO]

Serious question. Why do so many people think that the relays cannot be rebuilt. Especially with the two endings with cooperative reapers, who have instant communications , who built the relays in the first place and who are all over the galaxy.

[ShadowFaction]

Favorite moment was opening the ME3 case. Least favorite is obvious.

But seriously, more or less everything up until the ending was phenomenal, can't specify to much more than that, but many of the character-specific moments throughout the game really took the whole experience to the next level.

[BrowncoatN7]

I loved the game up until those last few minutes. I don't necessarily want a happy ending, but I want to make that choice myself, not decide between the colourful explosions. If I have worked hard to gather 7000+ war assets, I want it to matter.

Mordin's and Thane's death scenes were incredibly well written.

Modifié par lament.ballad, 16 mars 2012 - 06:28 .

[Genera1Nemesis]

Another favorite thing was the piano score that played during the emotional scenes. It still sends chills down my spine everytime I play those notes in my head...

[Kylie Nightbreeze]

Kylie Nightbreeze wrote...

There is a lot that I love about all three games. From ME3 though I would have to say may two fovorite scenes are the one with the Rachni Queen and Moriden's death scene. The Doc went out in style I'd say. The Geth Collective is another good scene that I completly enjoyed. I also like the EDI and Joker pairing... dang I love so much of it I keep rambling on about it.

That being said the as stated by other: The last ten minutes kinda killed it for me. I wanted to be able to reconect with Tali as my male Shep and with femShep I wanted to be able to be with Liara for as long as humanly possible. I think surviving the Synth ending would be visable considering Comander Shepard is already a bio-synthetic fusion. Thats just my thought though. As stated I would personally love to see an ending where Shep survives even if he/she has to fight their way out of the Citadel. Also the relays destruction is a bit much don't ya think?

I need to add to this. In truth like so many others it does feel like my decisons didn't mean anything at all in the end. I mean you go through all that stuff with the Geth just to stab them in the back? I don't think so. I mean it may be just me, but I would never double cross someone like that.

[jeweledleah]

Grimsaw wrote...

I came here angry and upset a few days ago. Canceled my SWTOR account in protest. I've kinda come full circle now I guess. Since bwFex pretty much summed up exactly how I felt about the endings, I won't say anything else on that subject.

I guess I just don't care anymore. Not to take anything away from the "Hold the line" crew, I think what you guys are doing is pretty cool, but at this point I'm just going to take Mass Effect 3 for what it is, warts and all.

BSN: Thank you for some great posts. You guys really helped me work through the pain. Bioware: Thank you for an AMAZING trilogy. Seriously, it's still one of my most favorites ever. I know you guys really worked hard on this one. It's too bad things didn't work out as well as you probably wanted.

I'm off to go play some SWTOR

Thank you for your time.

my SWTOR account is still canceled.  not as much in protest as ME3 basicaly killed most of my desire to play video games.  I haven't been able to play anything of my steam list, or off it.  I played a bit of borderlands with friends the other night, but I woudln't have played it if they didn't pull me in.  the fun was more in chatting and messing around, then actual playing.  this may pass yet.  I don't know.  I've gone through periods of not wanting to play before.  but right now, just seeing that bioware logo pop up and hearing my trooper speak in my Shepard's voice...  blah.

but I'm not giving up on ME just yet.  mostly because I want to see if bioware actualy delivers what it promiced.  even if its not the happy ending I want, I'll accept it.  (I'll be more cautious when buying bioware games in a future and wait for reviews first, becasue my preferences lay with hopeful, happy endings, but I'll accept it).  but I cannot accept them not keeping their promice.

[BrowncoatN7]

Sigh, here I am, quoting instead of editing again... Why can't I remove my own posts? D:

Modifié par lament.ballad, 16 mars 2012 - 06:28 .

[daboy042188]

i don't get why people would think indoctrination would be any better. people are complaining about the lack of real choices in the ending but if it's really indoctrination (which by the way makes no sense, if shepard was indoctrinated when the starchild said that the reapers preserve organic life, shep woulda said "oh, nifty, carry on") then not only are there no choices but there's also no consequences.

do i think there should have been more support for the ending? sure (although javik does mention a synthetic/organic war in his cycle which at the time i just thought was a funny coinkydink) and yeah i'd like to know why exactly the normandy crashlanded on planet heaven (garrus and liara were with me when harbinger hit me with the Red Beam Of Doom and then popped up on the jungle planet so i call it planet heaven) and yeah i could have thought of a different ending i'd have liked better (shepard jumps the citadel, the reapers, and himself into dark space stranding them all outside the milky way) but my big issue with the ending is just that there wasn't a lot of closure and there were some loose ends (haestrom's star comes to mind) that were built up but never exploited

[Eebatsama]

I loved every single bit of this game, except for the last 5 minutes of play. Even the showdown with TIM was fantastic, I loved talking him down and the tense standoff when he's about to kill Anderson. I'm definitely not complaining about the ending being far too sad and bleak as well, because I think a heroic sacrifice to ensure a peaceful future is exactly the way I'd want my Shep to go out. So ignoring the sadness and the plotholes (like my squad teleporting to an escaping Normandy when by all means they were all fighting on Earth alonside me), I still have a glaring issue with the ending.

My problem with the ending is the lack of closure for the many stories found within this trilogy. Take the events on Tuchanka, for instance. I loved the story of the Krogan, and wrestling with the ethical implications of the genophage. I think they were masterfully written, and put me on emotional highs and lows unlike any videogame I've ever experienced. Ultimately, I decided to help my old friend Wrex cure the phage because I trusted him to put the Krogan on a peaceful path going forward. Flash forward to the ending, with Wrex and his Krogan fighting by my side... what happened to the Krogan after the Reapers were defeated? Did my decision end up coming back to bite the galaxy in the ass? Did curing the genophage, as the Salarian Dalatrass suggested, set up the galaxy for another Krogan Rebellion? I don't know... no one knows, and when I go back to play as my Renegade Shep my choice to take the Dalatrass' offer of sabotage will similarly go without closure.

The same thing happens with the Geth and Quarians... will my decision to achieve peace by evolving the Geth to individual sentience have huge repercussions for the galaxy? No one knows... similarly to no one knowing what would have happened if I let the Quarians obliterate the Geth. And the mass relays are destroyed, so we have no way of knowing how our decisions could have a lasting impact on the galaxy. I think that's what the entire series is about... seeing how each individual Shepard handles ethical dilemmas, and how his decisions ultimately affect galactic civilization.

We don't get that kind of closure in ME3, so regardless of the absolutely fantastic voyage to get there, upon finishing the game I get a bitter taste in my mouth... because we never really get to know if the voyage was worth it.

The game is still awesome, and I still play it every night after work, but a chance to get that closure through DLC would elevate it to literal perfection, not only for the third entry into this beloved series, but for the entire trilogy that the dev team at Bioware has been crafting for the better part of this millenium.

[TheRealMithril]

DESTRAUDO wrote...

Serious question. Why do so many people think that the relays cannot be rebuilt. Especially with the two endings with cooperative reapers, who have instant communications , who built the relays in the first place and who are all over the galaxy.

It was my understanding that while playing ME (I don't remember where now) I was told that all attempts to build new relays so far had failed.

[Archonsg]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

TheRealMithril wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

Here's something that's bothering me about this thread.

Where are all the old Talimancers? One would think this thread would have hit 1000 pages already.
^.^

They probably left because of all the bwFex posters.

lol.

True that.
Too bad people prefer that as a "lesser" evil.
Personaly would have prefered my own "ending" used as a poster though. 
Or that Tali wedding pic.
Ah well. 

[TopcatPlayer]

Caz Neerg wrote...

Let's be reasonable here. It took me a few days, but think about it; can anybody take an honest look at the first 95% of the game, and really think that the team that created that actually thought the current ending was in any way appropriate? It *has* to be a fake-out, with a real ending still to come, because nothing else fits the facts.

And, if there is a real ending still to come, my favorite moment will become the current ending sequence, because of how masterfully they trolled us with it.

true.... but today aint that day..... plus i really dont feel like paying money for an ENDING to a game i've already bought.

It feels like i bought an entire season of a TV show and they left off the final episode to be bought later.

[Nightsider2169]

I LOVED the ending, tell your writers that they did a fantastic job as always. There was not a single moment in this game where I was not in total and utter awe. Masterfully written AND delivered. You've truly out done yourselves yet again.

As far as the nay-sayers not there, ignore them. If they cant be bothered to pay attention to ALL the clues and hints thru out the trilogy and see whats clearly right in front of their faces, then let them be mad

Obviously the ending was intended to be a TO BE CONTINUED and set the stage perfectly for future releases, whether it be DLC, Expansions, or hell even ME4.

I mean come on guys, think about it...
In ME2 you can continue to explore the galaxy after the credits roll and do DLC and what not. This CLEARLY can't be done with ME3. Bioware had to come up with a way to continue the story post battle so that they could add DLC and possibly even an expansion or two like Dragon Age Origins did.

Play thru the whole trilogy again, pay CLOSE attention to the hints and clues scattered thru out... And when it finally hits, you'll feel really stupid that you complained about something so ovbiously amazing.

Major Kudos Bioware, keep up the good work.

Your die hard hardcore fans are 100% loyal and 100% behind you.

Thank you for ALL the amazing work.

[realpokerjedi]

It's one thing to make a disappointing game.
Human beings make mistakes, it's honestly that simple.
However it's quite another thing to go back into the past.
Then personally assassinate every choice,emotional investment and enjoyment that most fans got from the series.
That's why this is so unforgivable, it's not because Mass Effect 3 is flawed.
It's because those flaws destroyed all the playtime we ever invested.

I know this is probably a PR stunt, allowing fans to vent and sooner or later you will come out and defend these endings.
Why can't you discuss this in the spoilers section? you won't be ruining the game for anyone, they have PLAYED it.
You can respond and address their concerns.
Sounds like you guys are stalling to come up with a plan.
EA is known to be evil and about money.
Well they will be losing it for future products and if they were smart, they would make a example of Casey Hudson, and the writers.
Or at the very least "Suggest" to fix these endings.

10% of people loved the endings. If that's what you were going for, you certainly succeeded.
Only people who think they are "smarter" than everyone (Aka as idiots or casey hudson) or trolls (who pretended to like it) boast how they like the endings.

The few I have seen that did like it, most never invested in the other 2 games much or even played them at all.
There is exceptions of course, but you get the point.
Please the majority of your fanbase, it's just smart business.

Modifié par realpokerjedi, 16 mars 2012 - 06:33 .