23455 réponses à ce sujet

[Greed1914]

I'll say this: Asking for a favorite moment is really difficult. 99% of it was just so amazing! It's a shame, but the disappointment that is the ending really does overshadow the greatness that is everything else.

[philippe willaume]

Dear chris
There was plenty of favorite momment, it is a GREAT game.
morin or kelly death, legion sacrifice, in general the way copanion are treated.

even if i think the ending is really really poorly presented and put in context. the momment that stick the most is In the citadele when you realise/are beingtold that it is not about defeating the reaper to save the galaxy because it is too late but it is about deciding what will come after.


My main grief with the ending is that is does not deliver at the same level as the rest of the game and that we do not have resolution for several element pertaining to the action described in the game.
 
We do not have closure on the rest of the companion but yet we do have fantastic closure on companions who die during the story.
 
I am fine with the artistic direction and tone of the ending.
the fight is kind of over, in the sense that galaxy is ravaged and Shep has won the right to influence the future.
So there is no need for a Disney ending.
BW is the one making the story after all
 
And precisely because BW is the one making the story and because we change the premises of the game when we had the conversation with Catalyst
 
Each option green, red or blue ideally needs to take care of our previous choices during the play through or at least present the relevant choices pertaining to the option so that it ties in with the play through.
 
The Normandy run at the end can not be tied to the sequence of event during the ending. What is joker doing here, how the people with us on earth end up there? And what happened to the rest?

phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 16 mars 2012 - 07:53 .

[pikey1969]

I've been watching these forums for a while, but only this guy put it best, so I am gonna quote/link his post here. With so much QQ and the anti-QQ, a lot of good posts have been getting bumped down.

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

A. First, a few pet peeves. Tropes are very popular for making generalizations about parts of stories we dislike, but they have a tendency to be overused and misused. 

The Crucible isn't a MacGuffin. The best and most common example of an actual MacGuffin is the briefcase in Pulp Fiction; we don't know what is in the briefcase and we don't know how or why it functions, but it's important because it motivates the characters and drives the plot. Basically, a MacGuffin is important only because it's important. The Crucible in Mass Effect 3 is an actual plot device (a MacGuffin is a very specific subset of this); we are told what it is and what it's function is right from the beginning and it's use in the climax is in line with this.

The Crucible isn't an example of deus ex machina. Again, we know all along that the Crucible's function is to stop the Reapers, it's introduced at the beginning of the story, it's importance is reinforced throughout, and it's function during the climax is in line with what is expected. An example of Mass Effect ending with deus ex machina would be: the Reapers win the battle of Earth and are seemingly unstoppable, suddenly, and with no previous justification, an even more advanced race emerges from deep space and destroys the Reapers, saving Earth. The difference is obvious; one is a clearly defined plot device, the other is a magical fix with no precedent in the story.

Being the only time I'm going to talk about tropes, and for humorous purposes only, here are some I find more accurate for the ending: the lack of resolution after all the setting-shifting events, especially the lack of clarity in regards to the future of the setting and it's characters (including the protagonist and in some cases the antagonist force) may be considered no ending, the Reaper-God-Child and unexpected side effects of the Crucible may be considered diabolus ex machina, and the sudden shift of themes from hope and fighting the impossible fight to that of true art is angsty can be seen as an example of a sudden downer ending. I'm certain there are more we can shoehorn as applicable, but this is as far as I'm willing to go into tropes.

I want to iterate that I dislike how much we over analyze tropes and assign them as labels to similar and overgeneralized devices and themes. Stories are usually divergent enough from other stories that generalizing aspects of them with tropes rarely do them justice and are ambigous enough that what tropes a story actually uses are debatable. I only addressed the aforementioned devices of deus ex machina and MacGuffin because they are venerable and distinct enough that their usage in reference to Mass Effect 3 is clearly wrong. TL;DR: tropes are convenient but our time is better spent looking at the specifics of a given story.


B. The resolution of Mass Effect 3 falls short for many reasons. More than I'd care to get into, truth be told,  so I'll try to punch on at least some of the major failings through the eyes of a screenwriter.


1. The ending feels jarring and out of place and there is little closure, this is a sympton of the ending failing to live up to what we come expect from the story. As I've previously said, "Mass Effect is a conventional story with conventional expectations". A conventional story, almost all stories, follow a pretty standard plotline: Introduction - Ascending Action - Climax - Descending Action - Resolution. In film we break it up into 3 acts, roughly: the first act is the introduction, the second act is the rising action and longest act of the story, and the third act is the climax and resolution.

Mass Effect 3 and the previous games follow this plotline both as individual stories and in the grand scheme of things as a trilogy (a trilogy is basically the three act structure writ large), that is until the final moments of 3. For reference, The battle for Earth is the climax of the series and the run across no man's land to the Citadel beam is the climax of the specific game; with this in mind, the Citadel sequence is the final part of the descending action and the resolution for both the game and series, the part where the antagonist is finally defeated, the themes and dramatic questions are answered, and the loose ends are tied. Or rather, it should be. After the defeat of the Illusive Man (the antagonist role is somewhat muddled and blurry towards the end of the story, more on that briefly), the protagonist has reached his goal, the defeat of the Reapers is at hand; conventionally, this is where the protagonist would succeed, the Crucible fire, and the Reapers destroyed. Instead, the story grows convoluted (once again, this is supposed to be the resolution) at the height of the scene by jarring us out of it with the bizarre, dreamlike sequence of Sheperd's ascent on the magic platform and the introduction of an ancient and seemingly god-like form who expounds the final choice between three options, all presented symbolically in appearance and action: one which mirrors a co-antagonist's desire which has been reinforced throughout as wrong and contradictory of the protagonist's; one which is downright bizarre and is almost completely outside the scope of the game's main themes save for being somewhat in line with the primary antagonistic forces' goal; and one which accurately mirrors the protagonist's goal from since the beginning. The results of these choices vary and are wide-reaching, creating a massive upheaval of the story world, while being unclear.  All of the characters and the entire setting are left to an uncertain and sometimes confusing fate.

Just looking at what I've typed, it's apparent this is not a resolution. New information is introduced throughout the entire sequence rather than tying loose ends. New information shouldn't be introduced in a resolution unless it directly resolves something or is quickly resolved itself; definitively, it's the opposite of what a resolution is. In layman's terms, this is what makes us feel like there are more questions than answers. 

The fate of the characters and the final destination they reach in the story are crucial to the resolution, especially on the scale of a trilogy. During the ascending action, right before the climax of the no man's land run, we are given a send off from all of the characters; this is both out of order for a conventional plotline (more fitting the descending action rather than ascending) and dimished by the implications of the ending. Ultimately, it is through the characters that we most directly identify with the story and find the meaning, the lack of resolution in this regard is especially unsatisfying. 

The resolution is where the audience is supposed to find the tale's "ever after", be it happy or sad. Mass Effect 3 completely lacks any sense of "ever after".


2. Video games, like film, are a visual medium; the ending tells us what happens rather than shows us what happens. This is easy to overlook but very important. Visual mediums for story are all about what we see. Another cardinal sin of storytelling commited during the ending is the description of, and differences between, the options in the final choice are almost all conveyed through exposition. The cinematics themselves, what we actually see, are extremely similar and all the implications of the choice we make are conveyed through what the exposition had told us. This is very poor storytelling and worse still to be considered the resolution.


3. Ambiguity, lack of clarity, plot holes. Relating to the previous points, the ending is excessively ambiguous and unclear. With only unclear exposition before the choice and without sufficient data presented afterwards, many situations are unaccounted for and either lack clarity at best or appear as plot holes at worst. The crash landing of the Normandy is a clear example of this ambiguity, both in it's plausibility and implications for the fate of the crew.


4. Nothing is gained by breaking convention and attempting to make the ending enigmatic or profound.Assuming this was the writers' goal, this is another failing. Some believe, myself included, that the writers' tried to use the jarring impact of an unconventional, imperfect ending to hammer home a message or theme (presumably: pre-destination, the uncontrollable nature of fate, and the individual's limited ability to impact the world). This, however, comes at the cost of the story and the audience's pleasure, a cost that is far too high for the nature of storytelling.


5. The resurgence and emphasis on The Illusive Man during the resolution as well as the lack of interaction with the Reapers and, more specifically, Harbinger,  detracts from the Reapers as the antagonist. A lot of people expected a "boss fight" of sorts or a closing discussion with Harbinger at the end. This is a perfectly understandable and legitimate expectation. During the climax, we are almost defeated by Harbinger, the avatar for the Reapers as antagonist, however, during the resolution, it is the indoctrinated Illusive Man that takes takes center stage. Though he unwittingly is an assisting force for the Reapers, he is not directly representative of them, merely their influence. TIM's role is more fitting that of an obstacle to be overcome during the rising action. 

The prominance of The Illusive Man as the final foe to be overcome detracts from the overall threat and importance of the true antagonist, the Reapers.




6. Shepherd is not a tragic hero. A common debate I see is between people who think there should be a happy ending and people who think such an ending would be out of place or impossible, sometimes refering to Shepherd as "tragic". The simple fact is, Shepherd has no tragic flaw nor does he make a tragic mistake; had such a tragic characteristic existed, it could be a foregone conclusion he would die. Overcoming the Reapers may be an impossible task, but the impossible is 
routinely overcome in the Mass Effect trilogy and other epics. As is, there is nothing in the story that would railroad Shepherd towards an inevitable demise, the difficulty of his task makes his death likely, but there's nothing that should remove the possibility of a happy ending. This may be why many people want a "happy" or "brighter" ending, there's no setup nor payoff to Shepherd's death and without those it may feel cheap; storytelling is all about setup and payoff. 

For an example of a good tragic hero, look no farther than Mordin Solus. His tragic mistake was the creation of the genophage. When a desperate need for krogan intervention arose and the genophage was the reason they refused, Mordin fulfilled his tragic role by sacrificing and redeeming himself. There's a big setup for the genophage throughout the series and Mordin's involvement is setup in the second game as a huge internal conflict for him. In three, this all pays off beautifully with either his redemption or brutal murder at Shepherd's hands before he can succeed. This is proper execution for a tragic character. From what I've seen, this is one of the most beloved and well-received storylines in the game; compare that to the ending's reception.


These points were written as a stream of conscious, I'm sure there are plenty of things I've missed or didn't feel like going in depth about, but I think those are some of the most important ones.


C. As I was writing this I read the Final Hours thread containing comments from Mac Walters and Casey Hudson as well as Walters' scribbled notes for the ending. Honestly I was taken aback.

Judging the content Hudson cut based on his feel for "the moment", I'd say his feel for emotional beats and his judgement of what was expendable for story economy was atrocious. The first Mass Effect was inundated at times with exposition and had very poor economy, this ending, on the other hand, is something of an opposite with not nearly enough information.

Walters' notes scrawled across loose leaf disappointed me. The ideas are clearly not fleshed out at all, strictly drawing board material, the execution we see in game is indicative of that. " Lots of speculation from everyone" is somewhat repulsive, as if providing an unclear, poorly planned ending that leaves your audience unsatisfied and grasping at straws for answers is somehow good storytelling. It gives me the inclination that the ending really was just for publicity.

I hope it continues to backfire.

Anyway, I'm off. Any interest or questions or if you want to pick my brain about storytelling, we'll call this a work in progress.


Updated: point 6

Modifié par pikey1969, 16 mars 2012 - 07:33 .

[Tom Jolly]

Have to agree with the consensus here: Morind's conclusion on Tuchanka was powerful, and Garrus'  comradere scenes were great.  

I might distinguish myself here: I thought the finale sequence with Anderson and TIM on the citadel was BRILLIANT.   I really really enjoyed it. The Injured-Shepard voice acting was tremendous.   "You've sacraficed too much" is one of the most poinant lines of dramatic dialouge ever uttered in a videogame; facial animations too.

It was a good call making  this confrontation a dramatic scene rather than a traditional 'boss fight'.
.

Modifié par Tom Jolly, 16 mars 2012 - 07:42 .

[jeweledleah]

XSarenXArteriusX wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

why do people keep thinking that art has to be abstracted, unhappy and vague? classical art is none of those things.

take any famous artist, any painting they made or scuplture, and they were all astounding, then the final one they made, they exclaimed was gonna be so amazing, and the final painting or sculpture, was of a pile of dog sh*t.  me i would say the inspiration was smelly....

oh I'm not arguing that part.

what I was saying is - look at classical art, how cohesive it is.  how well it tells the story.  you are not left wondering if you are looking at it right side up, or if you are looking at a human, animal or piece of furniture.  Abstract art has its place, sure, but ME3 ending is like as if Leonardo da Vinci painted Mona Lisa but made her face in primary colors and sloppy brush strokes with its features being all out of proportion.  it just doesn't fit with overall style and theme.

the same problem that ME3 ending has. 

and the point is, just becasue you can look at something and you cannot relaly tell exactly what it represents, but it sure invokes feelings of depression and gloominess, doesn't make it better, more valid as art then a painting of Liberty leeding her people to the revolution.

[Mushufasa1512]

noivoieidoi wrote...
Lately, other several games or series of games broke with the tradition in some ways, so this one adds to my hope that there’s a trend in video games, to innovate and bring them closer to arts. Unfortunately, it isn't easy do so - people are just too... indoctrinated by shallow entertainment and I seriously doubt that (except for a minority) they could even name more than 2-3 basic emotion; arts never did exactly bring fortune to creators.

Can we stop with the whole art thing?  There is an excellent post around here somewhere by an artist who describes the difference between "consumer art" and "personal art."   Mass Effect, or any video game made for mass consumption, is consumer art.  It is created in an attempt to ultimately make money.  We the consumer comission it by our previous support for the franchise.  If ME1 had sold five copies, ME2 would have never been made.  When a piece of consumer art is created, the artist creates what the people who commissioned it want.  Judging by the success of Mass Effect 1 and 2, it is fairly clear what this consumer base wants in terms of games.  If bioware decided to make this game soley for themselves, they could do whatever they wanted, fine by me.  But there was an expectation from those who supported this franchise for all these years, and that expectation was not met.

Also video games are not the mona lisa.  In no other medium of "art" are you completely immersed as you are in a video game.  Heads up guys, in rpg style games the marketing strategy is for you to identify with your character so strongly you feel that you ARE your character.  This is why I would hazard a guess to say that most of the people disliking the endings are the ones who felt a very deep, strong emotional connection with Shep and the various characters and those who are ok with it felt less of a connection.   So this whole notion about not naming basic emotions is silly.  Indeed, it is actually a tribute to the creators of Mass Effect that there is this much of an outcry against a bad ending.  We all loved this work of "art" so much that we cannot abide by the way it has ended.

[DESTRAUDO]

 which ending requires the galactic ready to be above 90. My understanding was uoi could get the best ending without multiplayer by completing everything in single player.

Victoorius wrote...

Tp begin with, ME is the most compelling, intelligent and versatile universe one has ever created. ME3 is far the best of the three episodes (though I've beaten ME2 four times, I loved it so much), it is pure excellence! It is so emotional, so witty so abundant, I loved every second of it!

I don't understand fans being dissatisfied with the ending. I would have been angry if the ending had been sweet and pink. I cannot even imagine a superb ending to the trilogy than this one.

However, there's something I feel very angry about. I would not be surprised if somebody litigated BioWare for depriving the gamer of the possibility to 100% finish the game without playing the multiplayer segment. The problem is that when we bought the game we paid the FULL price for this (100%) but those who - for any reason - does not play the multiplayer received an incomplete game. What if somebody simply does not have an internet access or hates multiplayer, or is reluctant to pay for Xbox LIVE Gold? Without the galactic readiness raised to at least 90%, you cannot see one of the endings. That is, you should not have prevented gamers from experiencing the "most positive Shepard scenario" when they paid the full price.

For a full price game you always have to provide a full (offline) content, however, you haven't done so in this case.

This made one of my friends so angry that upon completing the game he broke the disc into tiny pieces and promised not to buy and play a single BW game in the future. I could not help but agree with him.

[Sydeno]

endingsuxkroganballs wrote...

At the end of mass effect 3 I was trying to make my decision of which choice to make none of them seemed right then... i look down at my xbox controller and notice left blue button middle green button right red button.... but at the top there's a yellow button so now i'd just like to know where's my option for a crappy ending with a yellow explosion!

mwaahahaha

I liked almost every seconds of these three games, except some little details about little things... don't bother try translate in english...

If I can speak about ME2, I liked especially the beginning, when Shepard "die", and the final mission, when each of your mates could die or live...

In the third, we start without being able to defend Shepard in court (don't know if it's the right word) and we end without being able to see any differences between... ah allright, already said, but how is it possible?

I wanted more choices and real endings... Die, live, alone, with every body or almost, ashamed, honoured,... dunno, just try imagine something better...

[Jull3]

ebevan91 wrote...

Jull3 wrote...

Major.Joe.Kickass wrote...
Romances lacked. Only Liara her romance was really worth it. I romanced Tali'Zorah and it felt a bit empty.

I beg to differ. I felt that Tali had the one true awesome romance, and the others were lacking. Maybe I like the lack of the hypersexualized character, or the innocence coupled with the ltitle flirty banter, but that's just me. I like Liara as a character, but I just don't feel her romance was all that good. This is just my opinion though, so yar.

It seemed to me like they were trying to cram Liara down my throat, and Tali appeared way too late into the game, so I went with Ashley.

I'll let Garrus and Tali have their happy fun time

I agree with how late she appeared, but it seemed like the only
plausible time for her to appear. Quarians are there to give themselves
to the fleet, and that's exactly how Tali's character is. She's devoted
to what she sets her mind to, and she sees it through. If she appeared
any sooner and her people were fighting this war, it would be out of
character,

Either way, the romances are still awesome, Tali is my fav, Garrus is my bro, and everyone else can hook up on their own time.

[Archonsg]

Moerp wrote...

Dear Bioware,

i really liked Mass Effect 3 very much and loved the feeling you where able to create in me when Mordin sacrificed himself, Thane died as hero (at least) and the whole Setting - world going down and the only one who could prevent World dying was Shepard.
But the End - your closing sequenzes - made me feel the opposite.
Many words are written about the details and i dont want to rewrite them again after i can say i agree to most of them what most people write.
The Point is: All those things happend, hope and sense, Shepards fight to save the World was emotionally senseless at the end. This is no cognisance a Player ever wants to make after all he did, the Money and the time he spent.
I read you wanted to polarize with this endings but you failed. Look at the reactions to the people: over 90% in your own survey are not polarized - they are shocked and stand in line that this was not the Ending they wanted to see (nonetheless which kind of Shepard they played).
I dont like it when someone plays with my feelings or put me down for
any reason without chance i can give them flatly contradict.

Where are all the answers? Why did the Reapers do that? Why do they even exist and woh made them?

I really thought you where one of the Last Game Devs that could make really good games, but now i fear i was wrong.
So i fear i can not buy your folloing products like Dragon Age 3. I guess you would destroy "my world" in mind again i would realize again that time i spend playing was worthless. More it was depressing in the end.

Good bye

Moerp

Would you have prefered something like this?
*blatant self advertising, do not click if you are offended by this *
social.bioware.com/13096/blog/211782/

[XSarenXArteriusX]

Moerp wrote...

Where are all the answers? Why did the Reapers do that? Why do they even exist and woh made them?

Catalyst did answer some of those, however the ending still punched alot of people in the gut

[I Ryukage I]

can't believe how many views this has. crazy

[l00kash]

The answer to all your questions about ending is simple:



Need anything more?
And to the point : I'm with the rest who is dissapointed. I don't want any 'happy ending' but one that acually made any sense. After finishing ME3 it took me a lot of time to figure out what was that all about and I came with nothing. All this 'you'll be able to control your destiny' crap was tossed aside and we were fooled by EA/Bioware marketing and PR. Simple as that.
I bet they're now counting how much $$$ they can earn by simply putting one dlc with few cutscenes.

[FOX216BC]

Asking for your favorite moment is just a way to not have you talking about the ending.
How can they "On the Mass Effect 3 endings. Yes, we are listening" if they make us talk about somthing else.

Modifié par FOX216BC, 16 mars 2012 - 07:43 .

[jwiedeman]

www.gamefront.com/mass-effect-3-ending-hatred-5-reasons-the-fans-are-right/     

Modifié par jwiedeman, 16 mars 2012 - 07:45 .

[Thore2k10]

Tom Jolly wrote...

Have to agree with the consensus here: Morind's conclusion on Tuchanka was powerful, and Garrus'  comradere scenes were great.  

I might distinguish myself here: I thought the finale sequence with Anderson and TIM on the citadel was BRILLIANT.   I really really enjoyed it. The Injured-Shepard voice acting was tremendous.   "You've sacraficed too much" is one of the most poinant lines of dramatic dialouge ever uttered in a videogame; facial animations too.

It was a good call making  this confrontation a dramatic scene rather than a traditional 'boss fight'.
.

^this!

the illusive man is not the type for a traditional boss fight, you know scheming in the dark and all that! harbinger would be the much better choice for that!

[Genera1Nemesis]

FOX216BC wrote...

Asking for your favorite moment is just a way to not have you talking about the ending.
How can they "On the Mass Effect 3 endings. Yes, we are listening" if they make us talk about somthing else.

I think it's safe to say they are listening; there are a million post about it on here and other sites. It's just that a lot of people are claiming that the entire game is ruined by final 0.001% of game, and that is just downright wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if they need to hear some positive considering people are pretty much threatening to pull an "Annie" from Misery on them.

[Sydeno]

Agree with you Fox

BTW, marketing was about multiple ending, that's for sure...

As it was a lie, in the middle of a lot more, i guess it's false advertising, which can be prosecuted...

I guess that can make you think a bit...

[Teacher50]

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

daboy042188

Why does it not make sense, there is a video on youtube "mass effect 3 shepard's indocrination", it is a very well (professional quailty) made video that goes through indoctrination and all the evidence that points to shepard being hit with it. Check it out and let me know what you think.

That's just someone's theory although well prepared. It has enough holes in it to make a good swizz cheeze sandwich. None of this goes back to choices we were told we would have.

[Nar999t]

the best part believing every promise Casey Hudson made.
Your marketing campaign should have been "Help Destroy Earth and Galactic
Civilization" and not "Take Back Earth"

everyone talking about the surviving species being stranded on earth clearly
did not play Arrival DLC, where destroying a mass relay of a system means the
destruction of the system and its planets. in other words, after the military
guys celebrate and raising their rifles in triumph, they are blown to pieces by
Shepard decision.

what were you thinking BW? did i have great moments? many, that is why I am
here. But can’t think of them right now. I can’t do anything even work and talk
to my wife and son. You actually broke my heart by ruining my love to
everything and anything that was ME...I even planned to take a week off from
work to replay all the series to experience other endings...now it is pointless.

Modifié par Nar999t, 16 mars 2012 - 07:49 .

[Ginadin]

None of the awesome moments linger after having to swallow an ending like this one...

[endingsuxkroganballs]

my favorite ME3 moment is when marauder shields holds me close and tells me how my crew made it to the normandy out of thin air and why joker was flying away after being with me and fighting on earth it tells me how my killing the krogan race at every chance since mass effect 1 has come through for me and that shooting legion in the face was definitely the right choice! thank you marauder shields you made the game for me!

[runwhileucan]

Everything except the last 5 minutes. My highs were far and above what I expected and the end was the lowest of lows.

[michael99887766]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

FOX216BC wrote...

Asking for your favorite moment is just a way to not have you talking about the ending.
How can they "On the Mass Effect 3 endings. Yes, we are listening" if they make us talk about somthing else.

I think it's safe to say they are listening; there are a million post about it on here and other sites. It's just that a lot of people are claiming that the entire game is ruined by final 0.001% of game, and that is just downright wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if they need to hear some positive considering people are pretty much threatening to pull an "Annie" from Misery on them.

I hope they are listening.

Lots of people DO feel that the ending overshadowed the whole game, and indeed its predecessors. As the culmination of a truly excellent trilogy, which comprises what are probably the most emotionally involving video games ever, the final scenes of ME3 should have been well executed and provided a VARIETY of FULFILLING endings. We didn't get either in the slightest.

Modifié par michael99887766, 16 mars 2012 - 07:50 .

[Teacher50]

jwiedeman wrote...

www.gamefront.com/mass-effect-3-ending-hatred-5-reasons-the-fans-are-right/     

Right, I 2nd that... oh wait! I'm a few hundreds of thousands behind.