23455 réponses à ce sujet

[DrcAnjel]

http://social.biowar...index/9150901/1

If they can do it for a book, they had better do it for the game!

[steej]

I enjoyed the ending(s).
Don't' get me wrong, I was gutted it turned out the way it did, but I found deeply profound and moving.
Let's be honest, the galaxy is in a hell of a state by the end of it all. For all of the organics efforts, the Reapers had done a pretty good job of clearing them out and busting up the place. There honestly couldn't even BE a happy ending following the devastation.
I think what's upset most people with it is the fact that there is no "happy ever after" option.
Shepard doesn't return to earth to a hero's welcome, he/she doesn't get elected as humanities new councillor and live out his/her days happy and content.
My theory is that the whole ending upset is that for the first time in the history of the game we were presented with not two but three choices! And none of them were "Push this button to kill the Reapers then go home for tea and biscuits"!
People have grown attached to their Shepard. They've invested so much time and energy into crafting the character, they don't want to let him/her go.
 
Finally, and this is a bit of armature psychology here so bear with me!
Real-life human society demands and expects clear cut choices.
Right or wrong, good or bad, up or down, left or right, black or white, etc. etc.
What ME3 gave us were three options, none seemed palatable, and that blew our minds.
I know that even I was thinking "So which one lets me go see my friends again?".

I think it also forces us to look at ourselves.
To judge our own integrity. And I bet allot of us didn't like our own answers.
Would any of us truly be willing to sacrifice ourselves for the benefit of any single person, let alone the entire galaxy? 
Where would be the benefit of saving them if we don't get to experience it with them?I spent a good while on my own milling it all over, and it's that that made me enjoy the ending of the MassEffect trilogy.

Good work BioWare, keep it up.

[Neuthung]

MetalCargo999 wrote...

Neuthung wrote...

Chris, just letting you know that it's VERY hard for us to take your claim of listening at face value when there is no two way interaction between developers and player base. As it stands, you said you're listening in the original post and there hasn't been a post since with the BioWare tag. More and more people are starting to doubt you're even in here monitoring what's being said, which is troubling, especially at so critical a time for the Mass Effect franchise.

You should check out how much bioware is working on twitter to talk to everyone who asks questions.  They are listening and responding to us.  Just not necessarily on the forums.  They will respond eventually though, and officially as well.  Whether or not we like their response is another story.  Fingers crossed!

See, the problem with the Twitter feedback is that it might as well be automated. They're hearing us, but they aren't listening, at least not verifiably. There isn't any MEANINGFUL feedback to our, well, feedback.

[edrst10]

As many have said here, there were many absolutely fantastic and touching moments in ME3, like Thane and Mordin's sad but meaningful deaths, the final dialogue with Anderson on the Citadel (goosebump inducing), Tali's return to Rannoc, the Reaper and Thresher Maw in Tuchanka and many more. And yet, the ending has completely obliterated my ability to go back in my mind and reminice and enjoy them. My mind keeps going back to the ending, and it sours those experiences that were great and emotional as I experienced them.

Even worse, it has clouded my memory of the experiences in the previous games in the franchise (which I had --yes in the past tense now-- ranked as my second favorite video game series of all time--Baldur's Gatestill holds the honor of #1). I am truly disappointed that the high standards of writing that I have followed in Bioware games since 1998 failed so miserably at the worst possible moment. At the end of a game I should not be thinking about narrative incoherence, lore inconsistencies and plotholes. Worse yet, after crafting my Shepard it doesn't make sense for his personality to suddenly change to an unquestioning husk when meeting the starchild thing. And as ALL writers know, Deus ex machina was only viewed in a good light back during the time of ancient Greek tragedies. So in all failure of the writers is what has disappointed me the most.

[steej]

P.S. Sorry for my long rambling post back there!
I hope it at least someone takes the time to read it, i know i always skip anything longer than 4 lines! LOL!!

[Aedera]

I wonder if they realized that with so many options in the story that they were intimidated by their own creation, knew they couldn't live up to it and just said "eff it. Let's not do a real ending" seems silly i know but this is the same team that went with a stock photo for its big tali reveal so anything is possible.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Red explosion, Blue explosion, or Green explosion.

Choices choices.

[DS Monkfish]

You know what's really annoying me? Since finishing the game two days ago I've thought about nothing else (and not in the way you intended, Mr Hudson), and can't even bring myself to switch on my 360. No - instead, I'm constantly rechecking this forum, in a state of stunned disbelief, for a crumb of information. Why am I doing this to myself? Aaaaaaaaaaaargh!

[DoctorCrowtgamer]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Red explosion, Blue explosion, or Green explosion.

Choices choices.

It's like the choice between having your head cut off and being blasted in the face with a shotgun.

Hold the line people.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

DoctorCrowtgamer wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Red explosion, Blue explosion, or Green explosion.

Choices choices.

It's like the choice between having your head cut off and being blasted in the face with a shotgun.

Hold the line people.

They could have at least had Shepard go "Assuming Control" in the control ending.

That would have at least gotten a cheap laugh out of me.

[pottypenguin]

Njald wrote...

What you mean is "we urge everyone to calm down while we let time pass because that's what our PR guys tells us to do". I understand the need for BW to take stock and evaluate their product (95% excellent car, 5% deadly firetrap) but this just reeks of PR spin.
You either took a gamble or a shortcut and it backfired. Deal with it.

Home run!!!!

It’s out of Bioware’s hands by now anyway. EA PR “Assuming direct control”.
“This is what you face.” “Hope is irrelevant.” “This delay is pointless.” “You cannot resist.” “You are shortsighted.” “Irrelevant.” “Pitiful.” .” “You are vermin.” “You are no longer relevant.” “Face your annihilation.” “My attacks will tear you apart.” “We are limitless.”

[WilliamDracul88]

JUSTICE. We demand it.

[Adynata]

steej wrote...

I think it also forces us to look at ourselves.
To judge our own integrity. And I bet allot of us didn't like our own answers.
Would any of us truly be willing to sacrifice ourselves for the benefit of any single person, let alone the entire galaxy? 

But shouldn't that choice be ours to make? How is it a sacrifice if I do it because I have no other choice? I think there should've been the choice to get back into the fight rather than go down like a kamikaze pilot.

dmath2 wrote...

You know what's really annoying me? Since finishing the game two days ago I've thought about nothing else (and not in the way you intended, Mr Hudson), and can't even bring myself to switch on my 360. No - instead, I'm constantly rechecking this forum, in a state of stunned disbelief, for a crumb of information. Why am I doing this to myself? Aaaaaaaaaaaargh!

I am having the same problem! My boyfriend and I complain about it over dinner every night and instead of playing it (which normally Mass Effect games would give me months of replay value) I am just reading these forums b/c misery loves company.

Modifié par Adynata, 17 mars 2012 - 01:36 .

[Pyewacket]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Red explosion, Blue explosion, or Green explosion.

Choices choices.

I know right?  I picked green, because it's my favorite M&M color. 

[venusara]

Bioware, there are so many females who have $$$ to burn! Video games shouldn't be catered only to kids and young males. There is a huge market out there waiting for something virtually exciting. Women love your games, we love excitement too.

[MetalCargo999]

Neuthung wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

Neuthung wrote...

Chris, just letting you know that it's VERY hard for us to take your claim of listening at face value when there is no two way interaction between developers and player base. As it stands, you said you're listening in the original post and there hasn't been a post since with the BioWare tag. More and more people are starting to doubt you're even in here monitoring what's being said, which is troubling, especially at so critical a time for the Mass Effect franchise.

You should check out how much bioware is working on twitter to talk to everyone who asks questions.  They are listening and responding to us.  Just not necessarily on the forums.  They will respond eventually though, and officially as well.  Whether or not we like their response is another story.  Fingers crossed!

See, the problem with the Twitter feedback is that it might as well be automated. They're hearing us, but they aren't listening, at least not verifiably. There isn't any MEANINGFUL feedback to our, well, feedback.

That's not quite true.  I learned that the ending has to do with Asymov's singularity theory or something, while BioWare learned that referencing an intelligent idea doesn't make an intelligent ending.

[Ahms]

bwFex wrote...

Ahms wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Haha I love how "bwFex's" post is still getting reposted.....has to be going on 50 pages now. If Bioware could see one post in this entire thread, it should bwFex. He even supports both opinions of the theories out there and how each side "generally feels" in less than a paragraph. Pretty subtle in a post that long. The guy deserves some cred for taking the words out of an untold number of peoples mouths....covers everything.

OK, I made a post in maybe page seven and couldn't check BSN for a few days. JFC, it's already almost 200 pages. Can you please repost the post you're talking about? Thanks.

It's this one:

bwFex wrote...

I really have been trying to let myself get over this nightmare, but since you guys promise you're listening here, I'll try to just say it all, get it all out.

I have invested more of myself into this series than almost any other video game franchise in my life. I loved this game. I believed in it. For five years, it delivered. I must have played ME1 and ME2 a dozen times each.

I remember the end of Mass Effect 2. Never before, in any video game I had ever played, did I feel like my actions really mattered. Knowing that the decisions I made and the hard work I put into ME2 had a very real, clear, obvious impact on who lived and who died was one of the most astounding feelings in the world to me. I remember when that laser hit the Normandy and Joker made a comment about how he was happy we upgraded the shields. That was amazing. Cause and effect. Work and reward.

The first time I went through, I lost Mordin, and it was gut-wrenching: watching him die because I made a bad decision was damning, heartbreaking. But it wasn't hopeless, because I knew I could go back, do better, and save him. I knew that I was in control, that my actions mattered. So that's exactly what I did. I reviewed my decisions, found my mistakes, and did everything right. I put together a plan, I worked hard to follow that plan, and I got the reward I had worked so hard for. And then, it was all for nothing.

When I started playing Mass Effect 3, I was blown away. It was perfect. Everything was perfect. It was incredible to see all of my decisions playing out in front of me, building up to new and outrageous outcomes. I was so sure that this was it, this was going to be the masterpiece that crowned an already near-perfect trilogy. With every war asset I gathered, and with every multiplayer game I won, I knew that my work would pay off, that I would be truly satisfied with the outcome of my hard work and smart decisions. Every time I acquired a new WA bonus, I couldn't wait to see how it would play out in the final battle. And then, it was all for nothing.

I wasn't expecting a perfect, happy ending with rainbows and butterflies. In fact, I think I may have been insulted if everyone made it through just fine. The Reapers are an enormous threat (although obviously not as invincible as they would like us to believe), and we should be right to anticipate heavy losses. But I never lost hope. I built alliances, I made the impossible happen to rally the galaxy together. I cured the genophage. I saved the Turians. I united the geth and the quarians. And then, it was all for nothing.

When Mordin died, it was heartwrenching, but I knew it was the right thing. His sacrifice was... perfect. It made sense. It was congruent with the dramatic themes that had been present since I very first met Wrex in ME1. It was not a cheap trick, a deus ex machina, an easy out. It was beautiful, meaningful, significant, relevant, and satisfying. It was an amazing way for an amazing character to sacrifice themself for an amazing thing. And then it was all for nothing.

When Thane died, it was tearjerking. I knew from the moment he explained his illness that one day, I'd have to deal with his death. I knew he was never going to survive the trilogy, and I knew it wouldn't be fun to watch him go. But when his son started reading the prayer, I lost it. His death was beautiful. It was significant. It was relevant. It was satisfying. It was meaningful. He died to protect Shepard, to protect the entire Citadel. He took a life he thought was unredeemable and used it to make the world a brighter place. And then it was all for nothing.

When Wrex and Eve thanked me for saving their species, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Tali set foot on her homeworld, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Javik gave his inspiring speech, I felt that I had inspired something truly great. When I activated the Citadel's arms, sat down to reminisce with Anderson one final time, I felt that I had truly accomplished something amazing. I felt that my sacrifice was meaningful. Significant. Relevant. And while still a completely unexplained deus ex machina, at least it was a little bit satisfying.

And then, just like everything else in this trilogy, it was all for nothing.

If we pretend like the indoctrination theory is false, and we're really supposed to take the ending at face value, this entire game is a lost cause. The krogans will never repopulate. The quarians will never rebuild their home world. The geth will never know what it means to be alive and independent. The salarians will never see how people can change for the better.

Instead, the quarians and turians will endure a quick, torturous extinction as they slowly starve to death, trapped in a system with no support for them. Everyone else will squabble over the scraps of Earth that haven't been completely obliterated, until the krogans drive them all to extinction and then die off without any women present. And this is all assuming that the relays didn't cause supernova-scaled extinction events simply by being destroyed, like we saw in Arrival.

And perhaps the worst part is that we don't even know. We don't know what happened to our squadmates. We didn't get any sort of catharsis, conclusion. We got five years of literary foreplay followed by a kick to the groin and a note telling us that in a couple months, we can pay Bioware $15 for them to do it to us all over again.

It's not just the abysmally depressing/sacrificial nature of the ending, either. As I've already made perfectly clear, I came into this game expecting sacrifice. When Mordin did it, it was beautiful. When Thane did it, it was beautiful. Even Verner. Stupid, misguided, idiotic Verner. Even his ridiculous sacrifice had meaning, relevance, coherence, and offered satisfaction.

No, it's not the sacrifice I have a problem with. It's the utter lack of coherence and respect for the five years of literary gold that have already been established in this franchise. We spent three games preparing to fight these reapers. I spent hours upon hours doing every side quest, picking up every war asset, maxing out my galactic readiness so that when the time came, the army I had built could make a stand, and show these Reapers that we won't go down without a fight.

In ME1, we did the impossible when we killed Sovereign. In ME2, we began to see that the Reapers aren't as immortal as they claim to be: that even they have basic needs, exploitable weaknesses. In ME3, we saw the Reapers die. We saw one get taken down by an overgrown worm. We saw one die with a few coordinated orbital bombardments. We saw several ripped apart by standard space combat. In ME1, it took three alliance fleets to kill the "invincible" Sovereign. By the end of ME3, I had assembled a galactic armada fifty times more powerful than that, and a thousand times more prepared. I never expected the fight to be easy, but I proved that we wouldn't go down without a fight, that there is always hope in unity. That's the theme we've been given for the past five years: there is hope and strength through unity. That if we work together, we can achieve the impossible.

And then we're supposed to believe that the fate of the galaxy comes down to some completely unexplained starchild asking Shepard what his favorite color is? That the army we built was all for nothing? That the squad whose loyalty we fought so hard for was all for nothing? That in the end, none of it mattered at all?

It's a poetic notion, but this isn't the place for poetry. It's one thing to rattle prose nihilistic over the course of a movie or ballad, where the audience is a passive observer, learning a lesson from the suffering and futility of a character, but that's not what Mass Effect is. Mass Effect has always been about making the player the true hero. If you really want us to all feel like we spent the past five years dumping time, energy, and emotional investment into this game just to tell us that nothing really matters, you have signed your own death certificate. Nobody pays hundreds of dollars and hours to be reminded how bleak, empty, and depressing the world can be, to be told that nothing we do matters, to be told that all of our greatest accomplishments, all of our faith, all of our work, all of our unity is for nothing.

No. It simply cannot be this bleak. I refuse to believe Bioware is really doing this. The ending of ME1 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won. The ending of ME2 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won.

Taken at face value, the end of ME3 throws every single thing we've done in the past five years into the wind, and makes the player watch from a distance as the entire galaxy is thrown into a technological dark age and a stellar extinction. Why would we care about a universe that no longer exists? We should we invest any more time or money into a world that will never be what we came to know and love?

Even if the ending is retconned, it doesn't make things better. Just knowing that the starchild was our real foe the entire time is so utterly mindless, contrived, and irrelevant to what we experienced in ME1 and ME2 that it cannot be forgiven. If that really is the truth, then Mass Effect simply isn't what we thought it was. And frankly, if this is what Mass Effect was supposed to be all along, I want no part of it. It's a useless, trite, overplayed cliche, so far beneath the praise I once gave this franchise that it hurts to think about.

No. There is no way to save this franchise without giving us the only explanation that makes sense. You know what it is. It was the plan all along. Too much evidence to not be true. Too many people reaching the same conclusions independently.

The indoctrination theory doesn't just save this franchise: it elevates it to one of the most powerful and compelling storytelling experiences I've ever had in my life. The fact that you managed to do more than indoctrinate Shepard - you managed to indoctrinate the players themselves - is astonishing. If that really was the end game, here, then you have won my gaming soul. But if that's true, then I'm still waiting for the rest of this story, the final chapter of Shepard's heroic journey. I paid to finish the fight, and if the indoctrination theory is true, it's not over yet.

And if it's not, then I just don't even care. I have been betrayed, and it's time for me to let go of the denial, the anger, the bargaining, and start working through the depression and emptiness until I can just move on. You can't keep teasing us like this. This must have seemed like a great plan at the time, but it has cost too much. These people believed in you. I believed in you.

Just make it right. 

 

Best post in this thread.

[LyletheBloody]

 Chris:

Hudson's half-effort non-answer answer is not good enough and far from the discussions you mentioned.

I hope to hear more SPECIFICS at a later date.

[Esquin]

Clearly you ****s weren't listening at all. If you had been listening you would have announced an epilogue DLC. You did not.

LISTEN TO YOUR FANS! We, those who hate the lack of closure, we are the majority. Deal with it and give us what the Mass Effect Series deserves!

[Clyde_Frog_117]

 Casey Hudson has apparently replied to this thread.

http://social.biowar.../index/10089946

Modifié par Clyde_Frog_117, 17 mars 2012 - 01:42 .

[pottypenguin]

There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man.
It is a dimension as vast as space and timeless as infinity.
It is the middle ground between light and shadow,
between science and superstition,
and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge.
This is the dimension of imagination.
It is an area which we call . . . the PR Zone.

[scq]

I'm sure almost every permutation of concern has already been raised regarding the endings by now, but here are my thoughts:

I don't mind loss. While I'd hate to see Sheperd die (mine lived, if you consider him/her living with that breath in the rubble cutscene), what struck me as problematic was the lack of resolve and plot holes. What exactly did end up to the crew? My squadmates up until the end just somehow end up on the Normandy and they crash into some garden planet? If the Mass Relays blew up, doesn't that destroy the entire system and all surrounding life? With the final secret cutscene between the grandparent and boy, does that mean that the galaxy has lost its ability to travel between stars? Does the Mass Effect universe end with 3? I was hoping there would be games and media that would continue past the Sheperd/Reaper conflict as I do believe that Bioware has done a landmark job in crafting a universe that is as immersive and rich as any other.

What is flawed by the choices in the endings is that they offer no real payment for the effort I put in. I spent hundreds of hours making sure that all races and machines would cooperate and to set an example that pluralism and understanding works. It was a bit utopian but paragon Sheperd does speak optimistically and within the parameters of the games, it seemed to work. My Sheperd proved that all organic aliens could come to terms with each other and that they could even cooperate with synthetics like EDI and the Geth. However, the ending offered only 3 set choices: either exterminate the Reapers, dominate them, or homogenize all things. These choices do not reflect anything which my character had gone to embody. I was hoping that the trilogy would offer a far less deterministic and nihilistic outlook.

I too do hope to see alternative endings or something else that may be canon. It would be a shame to imagine that ME3 is the end of the ME universe, that the beautiful worlds and relationships created by Bioware and its fanbase ultimately ends up in ruins.

[shadowkinz]

i have too many favorite moments, but one moment i feel is very notable is one scene on palaven's moon mennae..

I loved the part when shepard asks general corinthus where he can find primarch fedorian, and corinthus just stops cold, looks up momentarily, then back down, and a few moments later follows up with, primarch fedorian is dead.

The acting and motion capture on that mission was amazing.. you really really feel the heat of a reaper attack and hopeless, hardcore combat.
^there are many moments like that throughout the game, but that one just makes you realize how dire the situation on mennae is/was

*edit* oh yeah.... I HATE THE DAMNED ENDINGS, SERIOUSLY.... i won't even get started on why, just simply the lack of closure of what happened to the rest of the galaxy/friends etc...

Modifié par shadowkinz, 17 mars 2012 - 01:46 .

[babachewie]

the ending is never gonna change...drop the line.

[WilliamDracul88]

babachewie wrote...

the ending is never gonna change...drop the line.

NO GODDAM WAY.