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On the Mass Effect 3 endings. Yes, we are listening.


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#5176
ek5000

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Ryokun1989 wrote...

Changing an ending because of some fan outrage would be a sell out to the people who do like the endings. Most fans don't even get the concept of why this ending is so much more interesting than an explanation of events. Some writers choose for no catharsis and for a game like Mass Effect that is a new and bold step to take. I never thought a seriers like this could or would do that, but now they did, it's like a miracle in storytelling happened. But most people won't get that anyway. So just keep it the way it is please. I loved it.


Releasing an alternative way for the end(s) to play out as a DLC would have no impact on the players who like the current "endings" just fine.

Saying "most people won't get that anyway" as a defence for the current endings doesn´t really fit, is it good storytelling when in the end there is no closure, when you are left with more questions than answers and you find out that in a setting where player made choices that impact the flow of the story have no relevance to the outcome of that story?

I'm glad you liked the way the story "concludes" currently, I wish I had too.

#5177
Lawliet89

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Bioware should take a look at this thread: http://social.biowar.../index/10102038

People are rating ME3 without the ending and the scores are stellar. Almost perfect really. I hope people on the other side of the fence realise that not all of us who dislike the ending hated the game. I loved the game personally without the ending.

#5178
MyAwesomeAfro

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Mass Effect 3 is Biowares Magnum Opus.

This game was a complete roller coaster and I loved it all. I was scared, exited, deeply saddened and exhilarated almost all the time. It was in depth and has a truck-ton of content.

Sadly, I echo the rest of the community when I say the ending has really stunted it's replayability...

#5179
Marinemike69

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It seems EA has "assumed control" of bioware rather well.

Hold the line people!

#5180
XTiferethX

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Holding the line

#5181
Faithwhisper

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I simply cannot grasp these endings.
Already early on I started to suspect something was wrong.
I think my FemShep is still in a coma from ME2 and dreaming it all... she has to be!

#5182
David Bergsma

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I won't let the best saga of all times end this way.

Holding the line

#5183
Starscream723

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The only thing I didn't like about the endings (other than not being able to get one of them without playing multiplayer) is that there is no point to any of them. There is no sense of success. I don't mind Shepard giving his life to save the galaxy, I expected it really. But however you get the Reapers to leave (telling them to go away, turning everybody part-synthetic, or just blowing them up) it turns out to be irrelevant because all the Relays blow up, nobody gets to go home, everybody is cut off, and civilisation is pretty much doomed anyway. That's even if the relay explosions aren't as catastrophic as the one in Arrival. And my team? Oh, they're crashing on a random world for some unexplained reason.

I don't mind getting a sacrificial ending. I don't mind getting a sad ending. I didn't mind the random kid made from light, and I actually liked the reason given for why the Reapers do what they do. Heck, I could even cope with the entire trilogy being decided on a simple "A, B or C" choice that doesn't make any real difference anyway... If only you hadn't blown up the Mass Relays, because that turned "Bittersweet" (i.e. sucks for you, but at least you saved the universe and accomplished something) into "Pointless and Futile" (i.e. sucks for you, and hey look what a waste of time that was).

Frankly the galaxy would be better off if Shepard didn't choose any ending, and everyone took their chances on just fighting the reapers with the fleet. I did that (accidentally) first time round while taking too long to make my choice, and got a "Critical Mission Failure - the Crucible was destroyed" message. At least then all the other characters and races were still fighting, not yet doomed to die out slowly.


Oh, and in keeping with the topic theme of moving swiftly on to talk about how great the rest of the game is... my favourite moments were Drunk Tali, walking in on Tali and Garrus, and Thane kicking ass on the Citadel. Overall, it's one of the greatest games I've ever played, up until Hackett radios you at the very end and well, you know what happens then.

#5184
SpuDSheraM

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bwFex wrote...

I really have been trying to let myself get over this nightmare, but since you guys promise you're listening here, I'll try to just say it all, get it all out.

I have invested more of myself into this series than almost any other video game franchise in my life. I loved this game. I believed in it. For five years, it delivered. I must have played ME1 and ME2 a dozen times each.

I remember the end of Mass Effect 2. Never before, in any video game I had ever played, did I feel like my actions really mattered. Knowing that the decisions I made and the hard work I put into ME2 had a very real, clear, obvious impact on who lived and who died was one of the most astounding feelings in the world to me. I remember when that laser hit the Normandy and Joker made a comment about how he was happy we upgraded the shields. That was amazing. Cause and effect. Work and reward.

The first time I went through, I lost Mordin, and it was gut-wrenching: watching him die because I made a bad decision was damning, heartbreaking. But it wasn't hopeless, because I knew I could go back, do better, and save him. I knew that I was in control, that my actions mattered. So that's exactly what I did. I reviewed my decisions, found my mistakes, and did everything right. I put together a plan, I worked hard to follow that plan, and I got the reward I had worked so hard for. And then, it was all for nothing.

When I started playing Mass Effect 3, I was blown away. It was perfect. Everything was perfect. It was incredible to see all of my decisions playing out in front of me, building up to new and outrageous outcomes. I was so sure that this was it, this was going to be the masterpiece that crowned an already near-perfect trilogy. With every war asset I gathered, and with every multiplayer game I won, I knew that my work would pay off, that I would be truly satisfied with the outcome of my hard work and smart decisions. Every time I acquired a new WA bonus, I couldn't wait to see how it would play out in the final battle. And then, it was all for nothing.

I wasn't expecting a perfect, happy ending with rainbows and butterflies. In fact, I think I may have been insulted if everyone made it through just fine. The Reapers are an enormous threat (although obviously not as invincible as they would like us to believe), and we should be right to anticipate heavy losses. But I never lost hope. I built alliances, I made the impossible happen to rally the galaxy together. I cured the genophage. I saved the Turians. I united the geth and the quarians. And then, it was all for nothing.

When Mordin died, it was heartwrenching, but I knew it was the right thing. His sacrifice was... perfect. It made sense. It was congruent with the dramatic themes that had been present since I very first met Wrex in ME1. It was not a cheap trick, a deus ex machina, an easy out. It was beautiful, meaningful, significant, relevant, and satisfying. It was an amazing way for an amazing character to sacrifice themself for an amazing thing. And then it was all for nothing.

When Thane died, it was tearjerking. I knew from the moment he explained his illness that one day, I'd have to deal with his death. I knew he was never going to survive the trilogy, and I knew it wouldn't be fun to watch him go. But when his son started reading the prayer, I lost it. His death was beautiful. It was significant. It was relevant. It was satisfying. It was meaningful. He died to protect Shepard, to protect the entire Citadel. He took a life he thought was unredeemable and used it to make the world a brighter place. And then it was all for nothing.

When Wrex and Eve thanked me for saving their species, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Tali set foot on her homeworld, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Javik gave his inspiring speech, I felt that I had inspired something truly great. When I activated the Citadel's arms, sat down to reminisce with Anderson one final time, I felt that I had truly accomplished something amazing. I felt that my sacrifice was meaningful. Significant. Relevant. And while still a completely unexplained deus ex machina, at least it was a little bit satisfying.

And then, just like everything else in this trilogy, it was all for nothing.

If we pretend like the indoctrination theory is false, and we're really supposed to take the ending at face value, this entire game is a lost cause. The krogans will never repopulate. The quarians will never rebuild their home world. The geth will never know what it means to be alive and independent. The salarians will never see how people can change for the better.

Instead, the quarians and turians will endure a quick, torturous extinction as they slowly starve to death, trapped in a system with no support for them. Everyone else will squabble over the scraps of Earth that haven't been completely obliterated, until the krogans drive them all to extinction and then die off without any women present. And this is all assuming that the relays didn't cause supernova-scaled extinction events simply by being destroyed, like we saw in Arrival.

And perhaps the worst part is that we don't even know. We don't know what happened to our squadmates. We didn't get any sort of catharsis, conclusion. We got five years of literary foreplay followed by a kick to the groin and a note telling us that in a couple months, we can pay Bioware $15 for them to do it to us all over again.

It's not just the abysmally depressing/sacrificial nature of the ending, either. As I've already made perfectly clear, I came into this game expecting sacrifice. When Mordin did it, it was beautiful. When Thane did it, it was beautiful. Even Verner. Stupid, misguided, idiotic Verner. Even his ridiculous sacrifice had meaning, relevance, coherence, and offered satisfaction.

No, it's not the sacrifice I have a problem with. It's the utter lack of coherence and respect for the five years of literary gold that have already been established in this franchise. We spent three games preparing to fight these reapers. I spent hours upon hours doing every side quest, picking up every war asset, maxing out my galactic readiness so that when the time came, the army I had built could make a stand, and show these Reapers that we won't go down without a fight.

In ME1, we did the impossible when we killed Sovereign. In ME2, we began to see that the Reapers aren't as immortal as they claim to be: that even they have basic needs, exploitable weaknesses. In ME3, we saw the Reapers die. We saw one get taken down by an overgrown worm. We saw one die with a few coordinated orbital bombardments. We saw several ripped apart by standard space combat. In ME1, it took three alliance fleets to kill the "invincible" Sovereign. By the end of ME3, I had assembled a galactic armada fifty times more powerful than that, and a thousand times more prepared. I never expected the fight to be easy, but I proved that we wouldn't go down without a fight, that there is always hope in unity. That's the theme we've been given for the past five years: there is hope and strength through unity. That if we work together, we can achieve the impossible.

And then we're supposed to believe that the fate of the galaxy comes down to some completely unexplained starchild asking Shepard what his favorite color is? That the army we built was all for nothing? That the squad whose loyalty we fought so hard for was all for nothing? That in the end, none of it mattered at all?

It's a poetic notion, but this isn't the place for poetry. It's one thing to rattle prose nihilistic over the course of a movie or ballad, where the audience is a passive observer, learning a lesson from the suffering and futility of a character, but that's not what Mass Effect is. Mass Effect has always been about making the player the true hero. If you really want us to all feel like we spent the past five years dumping time, energy, and emotional investment into this game just to tell us that nothing really matters, you have signed your own death certificate. Nobody pays hundreds of dollars and hours to be reminded how bleak, empty, and depressing the world can be, to be told that nothing we do matters, to be told that all of our greatest accomplishments, all of our faith, all of our work, all of our unity is for nothing.

No. It simply cannot be this bleak. I refuse to believe Bioware is really doing this. The ending of ME1 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won. The ending of ME2 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won.

Taken at face value, the end of ME3 throws every single thing we've done in the past five years into the wind, and makes the player watch from a distance as the entire galaxy is thrown into a technological dark age and a stellar extinction. Why would we care about a universe that no longer exists? We should we invest any more time or money into a world that will never be what we came to know and love?

Even if the ending is retconned, it doesn't make things better. Just knowing that the starchild was our real foe the entire time is so utterly mindless, contrived, and irrelevant to what we experienced in ME1 and ME2 that it cannot be forgiven. If that really is the truth, then Mass Effect simply isn't what we thought it was. And frankly, if this is what Mass Effect was supposed to be all along, I want no part of it. It's a useless, trite, overplayed cliche, so far beneath the praise I once gave this franchise that it hurts to think about.

No. There is no way to save this franchise without giving us the only explanation that makes sense. You know what it is. It was the plan all along. Too much evidence to not be true. Too many people reaching the same conclusions independently.

The indoctrination theory doesn't just save this franchise: it elevates it to one of the most powerful and compelling storytelling experiences I've ever had in my life. The fact that you managed to do more than indoctrinate Shepard - you managed to indoctrinate the players themselves - is astonishing. If that really was the end game, here, then you have won my gaming soul. But if that's true, then I'm still waiting for the rest of this story, the final chapter of Shepard's heroic journey. I paid to finish the fight, and if the indoctrination theory is true, it's not over yet.

And if it's not, then I just don't even care. I have been betrayed, and it's time for me to let go of the denial, the anger, the bargaining, and start working through the depression and emptiness until I can just move on. You can't keep teasing us like this. This must have seemed like a great plan at the time, but it has cost too much. These people believed in you. I believed in you.

Just make it right.



#5185
ttaylor0698

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Know what, I think the game was everything I expected from Bioware. It was riveting, nearly tear jerking ( I'm sorry but Grunt is my son!), my renegonShep's personal issues were deep and well explored....until the end. It was this wild rollercoaster ride that stopped abruptly and gave me whiplash. Now I don't want to sound like a malcontent, because I can definitely get behind Shep biting it in the end, I mean, dude has already lived to fight another day one game too long. But this...this "enigmatic poetry" is best left to the upcoming movie or better yet a book. The ending should at least wrap up some of the more basic questions. I'm still not sure if Shep was dreaming, having a nightmare, first night in Hell or what; furthermore was the scene with the Normandy Shep thinking about his crew in Heaven? If so where the heck am I? Lol at the end of the day it was all good fun......until the last 20 minutes. Thanks Bioware!

#5186
pfeffa

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Can someone please confirm that the whole indoctrination theory is just wishfull thinking? 'Cause I don't want to get my hopes up.
Not that I didn't enjoy the ending (synthesis, in my case) but it felt a bit brief. I would like to see what I bought with my life. And also... Maybe get an explanation on how my crew got away?

#5187
SpuDSheraM

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SimonM72 wrote...

bwFex wrote...

I really have been trying to let myself get over this nightmare, but since you guys promise you're listening here, I'll try to just say it all, get it all out.

I have invested more of myself into this series than almost any other video game franchise in my life. I loved this game. I believed in it. For five years, it delivered. I must have played ME1 and ME2 a dozen times each.

I remember the end of Mass Effect 2. Never before, in any video game I had ever played, did I feel like my actions really mattered. Knowing that the decisions I made and the hard work I put into ME2 had a very real, clear, obvious impact on who lived and who died was one of the most astounding feelings in the world to me. I remember when that laser hit the Normandy and Joker made a comment about how he was happy we upgraded the shields. That was amazing. Cause and effect. Work and reward.

The first time I went through, I lost Mordin, and it was gut-wrenching: watching him die because I made a bad decision was damning, heartbreaking. But it wasn't hopeless, because I knew I could go back, do better, and save him. I knew that I was in control, that my actions mattered. So that's exactly what I did. I reviewed my decisions, found my mistakes, and did everything right. I put together a plan, I worked hard to follow that plan, and I got the reward I had worked so hard for. And then, it was all for nothing.

When I started playing Mass Effect 3, I was blown away. It was perfect. Everything was perfect. It was incredible to see all of my decisions playing out in front of me, building up to new and outrageous outcomes. I was so sure that this was it, this was going to be the masterpiece that crowned an already near-perfect trilogy. With every war asset I gathered, and with every multiplayer game I won, I knew that my work would pay off, that I would be truly satisfied with the outcome of my hard work and smart decisions. Every time I acquired a new WA bonus, I couldn't wait to see how it would play out in the final battle. And then, it was all for nothing.

I wasn't expecting a perfect, happy ending with rainbows and butterflies. In fact, I think I may have been insulted if everyone made it through just fine. The Reapers are an enormous threat (although obviously not as invincible as they would like us to believe), and we should be right to anticipate heavy losses. But I never lost hope. I built alliances, I made the impossible happen to rally the galaxy together. I cured the genophage. I saved the Turians. I united the geth and the quarians. And then, it was all for nothing.

When Mordin died, it was heartwrenching, but I knew it was the right thing. His sacrifice was... perfect. It made sense. It was congruent with the dramatic themes that had been present since I very first met Wrex in ME1. It was not a cheap trick, a deus ex machina, an easy out. It was beautiful, meaningful, significant, relevant, and satisfying. It was an amazing way for an amazing character to sacrifice themself for an amazing thing. And then it was all for nothing.

When Thane died, it was tearjerking. I knew from the moment he explained his illness that one day, I'd have to deal with his death. I knew he was never going to survive the trilogy, and I knew it wouldn't be fun to watch him go. But when his son started reading the prayer, I lost it. His death was beautiful. It was significant. It was relevant. It was satisfying. It was meaningful. He died to protect Shepard, to protect the entire Citadel. He took a life he thought was unredeemable and used it to make the world a brighter place. And then it was all for nothing.

When Wrex and Eve thanked me for saving their species, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Tali set foot on her homeworld, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Javik gave his inspiring speech, I felt that I had inspired something truly great. When I activated the Citadel's arms, sat down to reminisce with Anderson one final time, I felt that I had truly accomplished something amazing. I felt that my sacrifice was meaningful. Significant. Relevant. And while still a completely unexplained deus ex machina, at least it was a little bit satisfying.

And then, just like everything else in this trilogy, it was all for nothing.

If we pretend like the indoctrination theory is false, and we're really supposed to take the ending at face value, this entire game is a lost cause. The krogans will never repopulate. The quarians will never rebuild their home world. The geth will never know what it means to be alive and independent. The salarians will never see how people can change for the better.

Instead, the quarians and turians will endure a quick, torturous extinction as they slowly starve to death, trapped in a system with no support for them. Everyone else will squabble over the scraps of Earth that haven't been completely obliterated, until the krogans drive them all to extinction and then die off without any women present. And this is all assuming that the relays didn't cause supernova-scaled extinction events simply by being destroyed, like we saw in Arrival.

And perhaps the worst part is that we don't even know. We don't know what happened to our squadmates. We didn't get any sort of catharsis, conclusion. We got five years of literary foreplay followed by a kick to the groin and a note telling us that in a couple months, we can pay Bioware $15 for them to do it to us all over again.

It's not just the abysmally depressing/sacrificial nature of the ending, either. As I've already made perfectly clear, I came into this game expecting sacrifice. When Mordin did it, it was beautiful. When Thane did it, it was beautiful. Even Verner. Stupid, misguided, idiotic Verner. Even his ridiculous sacrifice had meaning, relevance, coherence, and offered satisfaction.

No, it's not the sacrifice I have a problem with. It's the utter lack of coherence and respect for the five years of literary gold that have already been established in this franchise. We spent three games preparing to fight these reapers. I spent hours upon hours doing every side quest, picking up every war asset, maxing out my galactic readiness so that when the time came, the army I had built could make a stand, and show these Reapers that we won't go down without a fight.

In ME1, we did the impossible when we killed Sovereign. In ME2, we began to see that the Reapers aren't as immortal as they claim to be: that even they have basic needs, exploitable weaknesses. In ME3, we saw the Reapers die. We saw one get taken down by an overgrown worm. We saw one die with a few coordinated orbital bombardments. We saw several ripped apart by standard space combat. In ME1, it took three alliance fleets to kill the "invincible" Sovereign. By the end of ME3, I had assembled a galactic armada fifty times more powerful than that, and a thousand times more prepared. I never expected the fight to be easy, but I proved that we wouldn't go down without a fight, that there is always hope in unity. That's the theme we've been given for the past five years: there is hope and strength through unity. That if we work together, we can achieve the impossible.

And then we're supposed to believe that the fate of the galaxy comes down to some completely unexplained starchild asking Shepard what his favorite color is? That the army we built was all for nothing? That the squad whose loyalty we fought so hard for was all for nothing? That in the end, none of it mattered at all?

It's a poetic notion, but this isn't the place for poetry. It's one thing to rattle prose nihilistic over the course of a movie or ballad, where the audience is a passive observer, learning a lesson from the suffering and futility of a character, but that's not what Mass Effect is. Mass Effect has always been about making the player the true hero. If you really want us to all feel like we spent the past five years dumping time, energy, and emotional investment into this game just to tell us that nothing really matters, you have signed your own death certificate. Nobody pays hundreds of dollars and hours to be reminded how bleak, empty, and depressing the world can be, to be told that nothing we do matters, to be told that all of our greatest accomplishments, all of our faith, all of our work, all of our unity is for nothing.

No. It simply cannot be this bleak. I refuse to believe Bioware is really doing this. The ending of ME1 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won. The ending of ME2 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won.

Taken at face value, the end of ME3 throws every single thing we've done in the past five years into the wind, and makes the player watch from a distance as the entire galaxy is thrown into a technological dark age and a stellar extinction. Why would we care about a universe that no longer exists? We should we invest any more time or money into a world that will never be what we came to know and love?

Even if the ending is retconned, it doesn't make things better. Just knowing that the starchild was our real foe the entire time is so utterly mindless, contrived, and irrelevant to what we experienced in ME1 and ME2 that it cannot be forgiven. If that really is the truth, then Mass Effect simply isn't what we thought it was. And frankly, if this is what Mass Effect was supposed to be all along, I want no part of it. It's a useless, trite, overplayed cliche, so far beneath the praise I once gave this franchise that it hurts to think about.

No. There is no way to save this franchise without giving us the only explanation that makes sense. You know what it is. It was the plan all along. Too much evidence to not be true. Too many people reaching the same conclusions independently.

The indoctrination theory doesn't just save this franchise: it elevates it to one of the most powerful and compelling storytelling experiences I've ever had in my life. The fact that you managed to do more than indoctrinate Shepard - you managed to indoctrinate the players themselves - is astonishing. If that really was the end game, here, then you have won my gaming soul. But if that's true, then I'm still waiting for the rest of this story, the final chapter of Shepard's heroic journey. I paid to finish the fight, and if the indoctrination theory is true, it's not over yet.

And if it's not, then I just don't even care. I have been betrayed, and it's time for me to let go of the denial, the anger, the bargaining, and start working through the depression and emptiness until I can just move on. You can't keep teasing us like this. This must have seemed like a great plan at the time, but it has cost too much. These people believed in you. I believed in you.

Just make it right.



Fantastic Post very well said.
/signed.



#5188
blueduck1982

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Ryokun1989 wrote...

Changing an ending because of some fan outrage would be a sell out to the people who do like the endings. Most fans don't even get the concept of why this ending is so much more interesting than an explanation of events. Some writers choose for no catharsis and for a game like Mass Effect that is a new and bold step to take. I never thought a seriers like this could or would do that, but now they did, it's like a miracle in storytelling happened. But most people won't get that anyway. So just keep it the way it is please. I loved it.


I agree.

#5189
Jaraldur

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Chris, are you seriously asking me which are my favourites moments of the game? sorry i can't answer that, after i finished the game all my expectations broken in a colourful explosion without sense, all my favourite moments were erased trying to understand the endings from ME3. All my choices someones represented in the game were useless. What's the point on asking me my favourite moments if all my journey ends like this? Three choices.... you're trying to resume all my journey from Eden Prime to Earth in three choices... three nonsensical choices copied from Deus Ex ¬_¬ I´m playing with commander Shepard, not with JC Denton, if i want to be Helios (synthesis), passing control to illuminati (control) or wipe all technology (destroy) i would play again Deus Ex.

This days i was reading all the comments, theories, conclusions this community are giving, i'm with them, this is no way to end this saga. The first day i was mad at the endings, reading through the forums the conclusions from the community and now i´m dissapointed, no straight answers only delays and more delays.

And that's all BW/EA I´m dissapointed with you all.

PD: Sorry if my english is a bit confusing, not my main language.

#5190
Admiral Skeybar

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Posted Image

#5191
hardcoregmr

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my favorite ME3 moment was right before I realized that Commander Shepard started the game suspended from active duty for blowing up a single Mass Relay that killed over 300,000 Batarians (Arrival DLC ME2), but in the end, he blew up all the Mass Relays, leaving an unknown death toll. That moment sticks out in my mind as the epitome of the ME experience, being told one thing and then being given another.

#5192
brivdl1

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ME3 is a great game,really,near perfect ... without the ends
ending ruins the 3 games and ME3 finished like a bad game
we want a real good ending
Holding the line

#5193
WilliamDracul88

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David Bergsma wrote...

I won't let the best saga of all times end this way.

Holding the line



#5194
Grasich

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SpuDSheraM wrote...

bwFex wrote...

I really have been trying to let myself get over this nightmare, but since you guys promise you're listening here, I'll try to just say it all, get it all out.

I have invested more of myself into this series than almost any other video game franchise in my life. I loved this game. I believed in it. For five years, it delivered. I must have played ME1 and ME2 a dozen times each.

I remember the end of Mass Effect 2. Never before, in any video game I had ever played, did I feel like my actions really mattered. Knowing that the decisions I made and the hard work I put into ME2 had a very real, clear, obvious impact on who lived and who died was one of the most astounding feelings in the world to me. I remember when that laser hit the Normandy and Joker made a comment about how he was happy we upgraded the shields. That was amazing. Cause and effect. Work and reward.

The first time I went through, I lost Mordin, and it was gut-wrenching: watching him die because I made a bad decision was damning, heartbreaking. But it wasn't hopeless, because I knew I could go back, do better, and save him. I knew that I was in control, that my actions mattered. So that's exactly what I did. I reviewed my decisions, found my mistakes, and did everything right. I put together a plan, I worked hard to follow that plan, and I got the reward I had worked so hard for. And then, it was all for nothing.

When I started playing Mass Effect 3, I was blown away. It was perfect. Everything was perfect. It was incredible to see all of my decisions playing out in front of me, building up to new and outrageous outcomes. I was so sure that this was it, this was going to be the masterpiece that crowned an already near-perfect trilogy. With every war asset I gathered, and with every multiplayer game I won, I knew that my work would pay off, that I would be truly satisfied with the outcome of my hard work and smart decisions. Every time I acquired a new WA bonus, I couldn't wait to see how it would play out in the final battle. And then, it was all for nothing.

I wasn't expecting a perfect, happy ending with rainbows and butterflies. In fact, I think I may have been insulted if everyone made it through just fine. The Reapers are an enormous threat (although obviously not as invincible as they would like us to believe), and we should be right to anticipate heavy losses. But I never lost hope. I built alliances, I made the impossible happen to rally the galaxy together. I cured the genophage. I saved the Turians. I united the geth and the quarians. And then, it was all for nothing.

When Mordin died, it was heartwrenching, but I knew it was the right thing. His sacrifice was... perfect. It made sense. It was congruent with the dramatic themes that had been present since I very first met Wrex in ME1. It was not a cheap trick, a deus ex machina, an easy out. It was beautiful, meaningful, significant, relevant, and satisfying. It was an amazing way for an amazing character to sacrifice themself for an amazing thing. And then it was all for nothing.

When Thane died, it was tearjerking. I knew from the moment he explained his illness that one day, I'd have to deal with his death. I knew he was never going to survive the trilogy, and I knew it wouldn't be fun to watch him go. But when his son started reading the prayer, I lost it. His death was beautiful. It was significant. It was relevant. It was satisfying. It was meaningful. He died to protect Shepard, to protect the entire Citadel. He took a life he thought was unredeemable and used it to make the world a brighter place. And then it was all for nothing.

When Wrex and Eve thanked me for saving their species, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Tali set foot on her homeworld, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Javik gave his inspiring speech, I felt that I had inspired something truly great. When I activated the Citadel's arms, sat down to reminisce with Anderson one final time, I felt that I had truly accomplished something amazing. I felt that my sacrifice was meaningful. Significant. Relevant. And while still a completely unexplained deus ex machina, at least it was a little bit satisfying.

And then, just like everything else in this trilogy, it was all for nothing.

If we pretend like the indoctrination theory is false, and we're really supposed to take the ending at face value, this entire game is a lost cause. The krogans will never repopulate. The quarians will never rebuild their home world. The geth will never know what it means to be alive and independent. The salarians will never see how people can change for the better.

Instead, the quarians and turians will endure a quick, torturous extinction as they slowly starve to death, trapped in a system with no support for them. Everyone else will squabble over the scraps of Earth that haven't been completely obliterated, until the krogans drive them all to extinction and then die off without any women present. And this is all assuming that the relays didn't cause supernova-scaled extinction events simply by being destroyed, like we saw in Arrival.

And perhaps the worst part is that we don't even know. We don't know what happened to our squadmates. We didn't get any sort of catharsis, conclusion. We got five years of literary foreplay followed by a kick to the groin and a note telling us that in a couple months, we can pay Bioware $15 for them to do it to us all over again.

It's not just the abysmally depressing/sacrificial nature of the ending, either. As I've already made perfectly clear, I came into this game expecting sacrifice. When Mordin did it, it was beautiful. When Thane did it, it was beautiful. Even Verner. Stupid, misguided, idiotic Verner. Even his ridiculous sacrifice had meaning, relevance, coherence, and offered satisfaction.

No, it's not the sacrifice I have a problem with. It's the utter lack of coherence and respect for the five years of literary gold that have already been established in this franchise. We spent three games preparing to fight these reapers. I spent hours upon hours doing every side quest, picking up every war asset, maxing out my galactic readiness so that when the time came, the army I had built could make a stand, and show these Reapers that we won't go down without a fight.

In ME1, we did the impossible when we killed Sovereign. In ME2, we began to see that the Reapers aren't as immortal as they claim to be: that even they have basic needs, exploitable weaknesses. In ME3, we saw the Reapers die. We saw one get taken down by an overgrown worm. We saw one die with a few coordinated orbital bombardments. We saw several ripped apart by standard space combat. In ME1, it took three alliance fleets to kill the "invincible" Sovereign. By the end of ME3, I had assembled a galactic armada fifty times more powerful than that, and a thousand times more prepared. I never expected the fight to be easy, but I proved that we wouldn't go down without a fight, that there is always hope in unity. That's the theme we've been given for the past five years: there is hope and strength through unity. That if we work together, we can achieve the impossible.

And then we're supposed to believe that the fate of the galaxy comes down to some completely unexplained starchild asking Shepard what his favorite color is? That the army we built was all for nothing? That the squad whose loyalty we fought so hard for was all for nothing? That in the end, none of it mattered at all?

It's a poetic notion, but this isn't the place for poetry. It's one thing to rattle prose nihilistic over the course of a movie or ballad, where the audience is a passive observer, learning a lesson from the suffering and futility of a character, but that's not what Mass Effect is. Mass Effect has always been about making the player the true hero. If you really want us to all feel like we spent the past five years dumping time, energy, and emotional investment into this game just to tell us that nothing really matters, you have signed your own death certificate. Nobody pays hundreds of dollars and hours to be reminded how bleak, empty, and depressing the world can be, to be told that nothing we do matters, to be told that all of our greatest accomplishments, all of our faith, all of our work, all of our unity is for nothing.

No. It simply cannot be this bleak. I refuse to believe Bioware is really doing this. The ending of ME1 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won. The ending of ME2 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won.

Taken at face value, the end of ME3 throws every single thing we've done in the past five years into the wind, and makes the player watch from a distance as the entire galaxy is thrown into a technological dark age and a stellar extinction. Why would we care about a universe that no longer exists? We should we invest any more time or money into a world that will never be what we came to know and love?

Even if the ending is retconned, it doesn't make things better. Just knowing that the starchild was our real foe the entire time is so utterly mindless, contrived, and irrelevant to what we experienced in ME1 and ME2 that it cannot be forgiven. If that really is the truth, then Mass Effect simply isn't what we thought it was. And frankly, if this is what Mass Effect was supposed to be all along, I want no part of it. It's a useless, trite, overplayed cliche, so far beneath the praise I once gave this franchise that it hurts to think about.

No. There is no way to save this franchise without giving us the only explanation that makes sense. You know what it is. It was the plan all along. Too much evidence to not be true. Too many people reaching the same conclusions independently.

The indoctrination theory doesn't just save this franchise: it elevates it to one of the most powerful and compelling storytelling experiences I've ever had in my life. The fact that you managed to do more than indoctrinate Shepard - you managed to indoctrinate the players themselves - is astonishing. If that really was the end game, here, then you have won my gaming soul. But if that's true, then I'm still waiting for the rest of this story, the final chapter of Shepard's heroic journey. I paid to finish the fight, and if the indoctrination theory is true, it's not over yet.

And if it's not, then I just don't even care. I have been betrayed, and it's time for me to let go of the denial, the anger, the bargaining, and start working through the depression and emptiness until I can just move on. You can't keep teasing us like this. This must have seemed like a great plan at the time, but it has cost too much. These people believed in you. I believed in you.

Just make it right.


This is just too perfect to not repost again. Bioware needs to read this. The indoctrination theory would make this truly the best storytelling and gaming experience I've ever played. I would sell my soul to Bioware if they do this right. If they don't... good luck getting people to keep buying your stuff.

HOLD THE LINE!

Modifié par Grasich, 17 mars 2012 - 03:40 .


#5195
Jeowyn

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So much of this game is absolutely, mind-blowingly fantastic! Truly, it is freaking awesome!

Which is why the endings are so disappointing. :( I think I was expecting finales more along the lines of ME2, where you could have such varied endings like - everybody lives or everybody dies. Endings that were going to completely cross the spectrum because, hey, it's the final game so blow everything wide open, right?

But instead it seems like the end was pigeon-holed, for the sake of future games/stories in this new ME-universe (ie.the relays needed to be destroyed and the Normandy needed to be stranded for whatever you have planned in the future)

And THAT is the main problem. IMHO, for a truly great ending to a game trilogy built solidly around the player's choice, there cannot be a mandatory commonality between all endings. ESPECIALLY with main components like the mass relays & your entire Normandy crew.

... and I really, really don't like the idea that the Normandy crew abandoned you (out past Pluto to get sucked into the Sol relay....). After Shepard already died saving Joker once, you think Joker is ever leaving him/her again? Same with the LI, if they were aboard at the time.

#5196
Karabassoff

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Rushed to see the grand finale of this saga.

An otherwise magnificent game is flushed down the toilet with an ending that is just poorly done. IMO this is not art. This is a badly or hastily done job.

As renegade Sheppard would say:
"Let me make this perfectly clear, Bioware.
(shoots)
This is not acceptable."

#5197
BoneNinja

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I've mentioned some of my favorite moments earlier in this forum, but feel like I wanted to add more. On a larger overall scale and just give my opinion.

I love the Mass Effect trilogy. I'm FAR more invested into my Shepherd than I really should be, sad, but true. My Shepherd has become a symbol in my life. I love Bioware, you've always made the best games with the best stories, the best RPG moments with the best characters. You make me feel something for characters that would otherwise just be pixals (like my MMO characters). Point for this is me playing Mass Effect at all. When I first decided to pick up and give Mass Effect a try I had never played a sci-fi game. I had never played a shooter. In fact I detested shooters, absolutely detested them. Sci-fi I just didn't really care about. But I decided to give Mass Effect a try on nothing other than the Bioware label on the game and my past experiences with your games. I would STILL do this. THAT is how much you mean to me as a person.

I loved Mass Effect 3 no less than the others, in fact I loved it more because of all the closure I got to all the story lines throughout the three games. It was phenomenally done, trying up every little thing, all the resource scanning, the collection of random artifacts (Ancient Asari Matriarch writings for instance) that I never thought I'd figure out what good that actually did, all the small NPCs I helped in 5 minute quests, all of it, all of it came together so beautifully in this game. I've never seen anything like what you guys did with the ability to track and make matter every little choice a player has ever made through three games. And you did it without the import bugs and indifference that happened with Dragon Age 2, which just really hurt me as a player, THAT game truly made me feel like my choices didn't matter (Anders dying in Awakening and who the Warden romanced). Mass Effect 3 left me an emotional train wreck, I laughed, I cried, I was angry, I was exasperated, I was stunned, I was exhausted. You all did a phenomenal job on this game, more than words could ever truly express.

As for the ending. I'm glad you removed the TIM fight, to me, to wouldn't have fit with his character in any way shape or form. The way it ended with TIM was exactly how it needed to end with him. I don't need a big boss fight to finish a game and feel accomplished. I will say that having something with Harbinger would have been nice. Joker flying in to take some big shots at him with some snide remarks (like in some of the cut footage) would have nice yes. Needed? No...but nice yes considering how much Harbinger is talked up through the prior games, if not especially ME2. I also don't think the endings should be changed. Expanded upon? Yes, changed no. You made decisions, you did the work, go with it, but you all left PLENTY of room to expand in any way you could possibly want with them.

I do join the chorus in wanting more closure for my Shepherd. Here is where I'll list of my selfish list of wants for the game and list where my confusion with the endings come from.
1. From the moment the "elevator" starts to take Shepherd up to the star child, it immediately feels like a different game. All the attention to the most minute detail and the desire to explain absolutely everything suddenly flies out the window and there are just vague speculations on what, exactly, just happened.
2. Why the star child chose the form, how he even knew the form, of the child that had been plaguing Shepherd's dreams through the game. Why that form, it makes him entirely suspicious. I mean, why a child at all? He alone makes me want to buy more into the Indoctrination theory flying around than anything else. He doesn't make any sense. Where does he come from? Who built him? Was he built? What was his purpose? What was the point in putting a Crucible plan out there to go along with the Citadel if the star child never wanted that to be part of the solution anyway? Do the "paragon" and "renegade" colors shown with the pictures he puts in your head for the new solutions even mean anything? Or are they just colors? I have a million questions alone just surrounding the star child.

PS. here, I don't necessarily buy into the indoctrination theories out there being true, but I will admit I am one of the people who want them to be true. It would really be a masterful addition to the story, it would allow you to pursue the indoctrination idea you clearly wanted to based off the app without the mechanical problems you mentioned in doing it. I think it would answer a lot of questions, and do so in a masterful way. Just my opinion though.

3. After the choice is made, my next biggest problem is the Normandy itself. Everything you know about Joker, screams at you, he would not leave the fight for Earth. If taking the images seriously, he clearly was just on Earth picking up your squad mates, at most, at MOST, he would have taken them back to space to fight with the rest of the fleet. But even with that, he wouldn't leave Shepherd, not until 100% confirmation of Shepherd's death, and then his command would fall to Hackett. He wouldn't leave Earth. If he was going to crash anywhere, then it should have been onto Earth, but this raises a bunch of other logistic problems for me as well.

4. So if the Normandy crashed, does that mean ALL the ships that were in space crashed? And if all the relays were destroyed, what happened to all the other races now stuck in the Sol System defending Earth? I've basically tied these up into one question, the general "What the heck happened to everyone else? To the rest of the races?" question. There were lots of planets out there that had multiple races on them at this point, what happened to them all? Why wouldn't the star gazer at the end know to tell the child any of that if he knew so much about every other little detail Shepherd had done? Was it all a hallucination? Were the other races stranded in the Sol System? Did they ever get back to their own worlds? There is no reason why, even if all the ships crashed, you couldn't rebuild space fairing ships and then trek out to regain access to the other worlds/systems...it would be A LOT slower than the relay travel, but it could be done with the current scientific knowledge at the time...and given all the races best scientists are all still trapped together somewhere from working on the Crucible. Just so many questions here too.

5. Is there supposed to be any real difference between getting the ending scene where you see Shepherd take a breath versus hearing the stargazer talk about "just one more story"? Or are they both just supposed to signify that Shepherd lives and that's it?

Finally as for options for endings, I would like to scene it play out with answers, but I would like to see them run the full range of possibilities. Bioware has always provided for their fans the one utterly tragic ending where everything and everyone is lost through the "happy ending" where it's the best possible outcome (the most possible people lived and the danger was eliminated, future generations where saved, etc) and the hero is alive and reunited with their love interest. I would like to see this here too. I don't mind the "bittersweet" ending, I don't mind the possibility of squad member or hero lost, but there should be an option in there where you CAN save the hero, the squad, and the love interest and be reunited to live out their days. It can be really hard to get that ending, but it should still be possible. Personally I think Shepherd deserves to be able to "settle down" and have some children as he/she helps rebuild the devastation that is scattered across the universe from the Reaper attacks.

All this is just my thoughts, my confusion and my opinions. Hopefully it helps the team. I, personally, can't wait to see what DLCs await in the next year!

#5198
Mcfly616

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Bioware was the one developer I blindly trusted.....I always planned to beat ME3 with my imported character, and after beating it, I would go back to the start, and make every decisions just as I did before, all the way through the series....back to back to back.....but after that ending, and according to Casey's official comments it is the ending(no hope for indoc. theory I guess? Could've swarn that was the twist)....I just can't bring myself to even turn on my Xbox.... They made you care about all these characters as if they were people(indeed I like these character's more than most people I meet. The characters are just more genuine and impossibly more real.)...and they did it over the course of 3 games, only to wait til theyre at the finish line just to go against all their promises that "your choices matter"...they're doing the same thing now, right on these very forums...."some of our passionate fans need more explaining....we are listening"....yeeeaah...idk....I never thought I could proclaim a game is "the greatest ever" and then get to the finish line, only for the writers to decide to get "artsy" in the last 5 minutes and completely ruin what they started...I'm sorry but you should've stayed the course.and stuck to your guns in terms of the established story and its themes .....they say they cut the boss.battle out because it was "too videogame-y"......really? Well Saren worked out well for you, and ME1 was goty runner up in 07.....ME2 we faced that unexplainable human reaper fetus, nonetheless you received numerous game of the year awards in 2010.....now I'm not saying that you won the awards or were.considered for them, based on boss fights....I'm just saying you had them in the games, and the games did just fine with the critics.....surely I'm not the only one that expected a battle with Harbinger at some point towards the end of ME3....hell, when I beat ME2, the first thing I thought was "this Harbinger is going to be the main bad guy in ME3"..and if he wasn't, surely TIM would be....nope and nope....wtf? Ever since ME1, even before they announced ME2, I knew that my decision to let the Rachni Queen live on Noveria, I knew this was going to be KEY...while on Illium in ME2, this knowledge was reinforced when the Queen had contacted me by speaking through an Asari....she told me that they did not forget what I had done for them....and that they would return the favor when the time comes.....I figured she'd keep quiet, stay below the radar, then when all hope is lost in the final battle for the galaxy in ME3, the queen will show up and help us turn the tide....nope....saving the queen just gave me a few hundred points on a stupid meter....that's not anti-climactic or anything.....I'm running to the conduit and my squad.just stops and let's me go on my own? You mean the ones that did not hesitate to follow me through the Omega 4 relay(something.nobody thought was possible?) In fact they all knew.very well it was probably a one way trip. Nobody had been known to survive it before...but.that didn't change their mind.....so now we get to the finish line in ME3, and they just leave me hanging? Nope, Garrus and Liara helped me defeat Saren....I find it impossible to believe that they would stand by me then, but wouldn't be right behind me as I raced towards the conduit(the finish line)....if anything it should've strengthened their resolve, knowing that it all came to this....and right before this, Garrus literally doesn't expect to make it. He says he'll meet me in the bar in heaven.....but yet not 5 mins after he says all this tear jerking dialog, he's standing at the top of the hill with my girl(Liara), just watching my ass kamakaze sprint down a hill, dodging laser after laser....yeah the problem is that its not cohesive....the last 5 minutes of ME3 are so incoherent to the universe that was established all the way up to that point, that is just maddening....the characters don't even act like themselves.....Anderson followed me up to the Citadel? Umm no he def did not...I know because I looked around the entire damn area after getting hit by Harby's beam....and my squad, nor Andersen was there.....and why the hell is Shepard able to breathe in space without a helmet while talking to starchild? And wtf was the point of showing Shepard inhaling and apparently alive in the last scene of the last game in Shepards story, if that was the end and.its all over?! I just can't do this anymore...the end of a trilogy is supposed to be finality. Definite closure....you wanna try and be hipsters and create an ending that can be left up for interpretation?! That's all fine and good but you shouldve gotten that out of the way in the first 2 games. This was supposed to be your crowning achievement. And you chose to throw it all away when a masterpiece was nearly complete.....thanks for the broken promises.....our choices matter? Everything is answered?..no it is not. I feel like my dream girl dumped me via text message, came to pick up her stuff, peeled out of the driveway and ran my dog over on the way out.....I can't even bring myself to play my favorite game anymore...Goodbye Bioware

#5199
BREWER101

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It is not like i don't appreciate the game but the end seems to be put together like you was lacking time. To many questions stay open since it is the last part in trilogy we would appreciate some closure ie. What happened to the crew of ''normandy'' (did Tali reunited with the quarians since the mass relays are destroyed or she got together with Garus? how is Liara doing? did Garus returned to his planet and found his father? How is Ashley as a spectre? Vega , Joker , Edi? And how the galaxy is going about without mass relays? depends on the chosen path did the peace between organics and cyber. last or not ? And other characters i wont even mention who was really interesting from previous ME. I Could carry on with the ? mark on and on.
I think that we deserve this questions being answered after all this time put in to a game and as a perfect conclusion to the otherwise perfect game.

PS. as to the perfect moment i would say sniping bottles with Garus. :)

#5200
Fred_MacManus

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Flyers215 wrote...

I call bull**** on that one.  I work for GameStop and we can't just turn games away.  I remember when a store I worked at had over 140 copies of GTA IV just lying around.  A GameStop would welcome a copy of this game, especially since no store in my area has a used one yet.


Call BS all you like. I was told, by the people at the local GameStop, that they couldn't accept any more returns, because they had more used copies than they did new.