On the Mass Effect 3 endings. Yes, we are listening.
#6251
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:06
Every great moment was wiped from my mind in just a few minutes, and not just those in ME3, but memories from ME1&2 were spoiled as well.
#6252
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:07
Evil Minion wrote...
Durontan wrote...
toddmetzger wrote...
I really hope the endings aren't ruined because a few people are moaning about them not being happy, complain about plot holes but never give any examples of such inconsistencies or complain about them "not making sense" when they make perfect sense.
Before writing a stupid comment like that, take a look at pages and pages of players actually WRITING down the inconsistencies that happened all over the game ending, but better yet, think this link will answer all the inconsistencies of the game ending and reasons why fans hate the ending:
www.gamefront.com/mass-effect-3-ending-hatred-5-reasons-the-fans-are-right/
Take a good look at reasons 4, 3 and 2. Reason 3 explains the plotholes. My ending hate primary reason is reason 2
So what?
I've read the countless complaints and there are a few I agree with, and many, many I don't.
Overall, I was fine with the endings. I understand why people aren't, and I even respect their viewpoint, but what I absolutely don't agree with is that we all are required to share the same opinion. Sorry, but taste is subjective, and there is no "correct" way to feel about the game.
But there's no justification for calling other people's opinions "stupid" or for heaping abuse on the devs.
I don't mind opinions of people likeing or dislikeing the end. I never called the person stupid but a comment as stupid, as the comment itself is saying how we don't give examples of what is wrong... and on 200 pages there is if nothing else 1 comment per page that tells of something that is wrong in it. So yes, I will say again, that comment was stupid extra trolling attempt. Whoever liked the endings, good for you, but ending had to many plot holes in it. Either animation had to explain something more or ending in itself should have been different. As it is, Normandy had no bloody reason to be filled with my crew and escaping the SOL system.
#6253
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:08
To begin I would like to reiterate my continuing admiration for Bioware and the games it makes. I am not anti-Bioware in the slightest and will most likely continue buying their products. I also greatly enjoyed 99% of Mass Effect 3. I was very cautious about the game but found upon playing it that it exceeded my expectations in most respects. I loved the overall story, the characters, the gameplay, the witty dialogue, the magnificent soundtrack (which I fully intend to buy if it is ever released separately) and the great voice acting. I was just playing Mass Effect 1 yesterday and it is amazing how far the series has come since 2007. I have so many favourite moments its hard to whittle it down, but alongside my earlier choices I would have to say drunk Tali, James "winning the mission" by almost killing everyone and Liara's data capsule were superb moments for me.
And then there was the ending. I liked parts of the ending but overall it was a let down. I know (and have been told over and over) that fans of a series or game often react badly when it ends, and I certainly found Shepard's end an emotional experience. However, having had time to think about it I still feel that Mass Effect 3's ending was genuinely inadequate. I would like to state this in 2 points....
1. If you compared Mass Effect 3's ending with Mass Effect 2, in reality they a lot in common with each other. In both instances you have a limited number of game changing choices to make, and in both cases how well you prepared for the finale affects the outcome. Whats different is the lack of much gameplay in Mass Effect 3's finale, especially following the Illusive Man's death. If the Catalyst can be (and should be) considered the final boss of the game then I think there is a real problem in your inability to either converse or fight with him. And if he isn't then it effectively makes TIM the final boss, meaning that the game truly ends several minutes before the final decision. All this leads to the ending of Mass Effect 3 being a rather passive affair. I feel that this is a major reason felt so let down by the ending of the game, the lack of ability to actually play it. Its sheer passivity makes it unfulfilling.
2. The ending cutscenes. Enough has clearly already been said on here about how the ending cutscenes are not distinct enough from each other, making 3 seemingly different endings all feel the same. I aggree with this point (even though the ending cutscenes of ME2 weren't too different either) but my main problem with them is not so much that they do not offer any resolution, but that the resolution the offer is beneath the quality of the game overall. Essentially what the endings provide us is a jumble of several different conclusions. On the one hand we have Shepard's moving sacrifice which I believe to be the best part of the ending. Had the cutscenes continued in this gritty manner I would have been satisfied with them. However following this the endings suddenly become more upbeat. In all the conclusions the reapers are destroyed or retreat quickly and without much fuss and then we discover that Joker effectively got a "happy ever after", seemingly oblivious to the sacrifice of so many others, including EDI in one option. And then to cap it all off, Shepherd can even miraculously survives in some endings. This is to be honest only one step away from the reunion ending many (if not neccessarily myself) have been calling for. What we thus effectively have is a strange mixture of a "good" and "bad" ending, like being able to destroy and save the council at the same time in ME1 or for Shepard to wipe out his entire team but walk out unscathed in ME2. This I think is why the ending feels inconclusive. Had there been too definitive sad and happy endings then it would have been far better. The absence of a more traditional Bioware epilgoue detailing the fate of various characters was also a problem in my opinion.
This then were my thought about where the ending went wrong and how it could be made better. I am just one of the many people on here who would like some DLC at some point which allows the player if they want to correct the ending. I understand it will be unlikely to be free and am happy to pay for it. The main reason I am willing to do this is because as I said earlier the game itself is so good right up until Anderson's death. Its a 10/10 game with at most a 4/10 ending, and that to me is a huge shame for any game, but especially for the conclusion of a series I love. It does not have to be a super happy ending complete with birthday cake, but I would like the problems I detailed above to be improved. I really believe that creating such a DLC would be a good business decision for Bioware and EA from both a financial perspective and in terms of good press. I really hope it happens.
Modifié par ECK mk2, 18 mars 2012 - 10:10 .
#6254
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:13
I have finished ME3 a couple of days ago and well i have no words to discribe my feelings.
I can't understand what went wrong, bringing this epic adventure in this lovely authentic universe to an end. Bioware,you created a fantastic world,which is in line with Star Wars, Star Trek or the Stargate universe.
I don't really have anything against a philosophical, dramatic or bad ending, but it have to be done right and must fit. And, i am really sorry to say this(it breaks my heart), but you failed. And i don't know why.
If you had no experience in great story telling, i wouldn't care.
If you had no resources to manage this, i would understand.
So, my question is: Did you simply had no more time to make that ending,which everyone expected or did you really just failed in writing?
My Problems with the ending are the following (most of them already explained and named hundred times, so i keep it short).
- lack of logic
- more questions raised then answered
- not the promised affect of your choises
- kind of mysterios space magic
- totally absurd ( absurd is still the wrong word for that)
I read something as your goal was to suprise and lead us to discussions. Well, you did that, but unfortunately on the wrong way. Sure, we try to explain the endings with theories which lead into discussions, but it's more an hopeless undertaking to fill logical caps caused by frustration than an amused relaxed philosophical debate on an awesome and/or deeply reasoned ending.
Another point is the expecation you gave us on the Mass Effect 3 ending. Through the whole Mass Effect triology we are prepared for this epic battle for Earth and that we will kick reaper's ass. "Take Earth back."- Trailer says everything, even the Mass Effect 1+2 endings say a lot of the epic ending we should expect in ME3. You decided to do something different. Accepted. Again, i have no problems with bad endings or shepard's sacrifice, but it has to be done well and it should includes at least touch of epicness, which gives me the creeps or which cause me a tear running down my cheek, because of sadness or delight,not of frustration. An ending which gives me feedback of my choises i made and which lead me into decisions which could cost mates of my squad as in ME2.
I keep aksing myself, why you just didn't make an ending as in ME2 with many variations?
- Earth and Universe rescued
- (Earth and) Universe rescued,but shep dead(or(and squad)
- Universe destroyed, shep dead
-Universe destroyed,but shep alive?
etc.
You can implement so much ideas ,which would pleased everyone.
And the Reapers? You could have give a explanation thousand times better than that you have now. I had a 5-minute discussion with my best friend and we had fantastic and mad ideas.
And I KNOW that BIOWARE, the master of story telling, can do way way better, than we are now.
Let's notice my last point.
If this ending is really the ending you implicated, why are you not in first row defending you art, your masterpiece with all courage you have got. If you really love your ending as it is, we should see you,Bioware,debating,explaining and defending, where is your commitment to your project which every artist should have. Tell us your intentions, your thoughts on the several ending scenes.
Just my 2 cents
DK
PS: Pardon me for my english.
#6255
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:15
Ieldra2 wrote...
I'm just leaving this here. An excellent summary of why we are so very disappointed about the endings:
Is there a way to get Bioware to watch this?
#6256
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:16
Enjoy.
http://angryjoeshow....fect-3s-ending/
#6257
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:17
Ophidios wrote...
jeweledleah wrote...
I went back to double check the statement and I will own up, I have quoted from a wrong person. for that i apologize. but you are still being condecending towards other people, with claims of selfishenss for chosing any other option then green and this is the general feeling I get from your statements. that YOu in fact think that we're wrong for not seeing the "genius" of the endings.
No, I claim selfishness is how *MY* Shepard and I, as a player, justified *MY* choice. I don't think anyone is wrong. Any implied genius is my personal opinion.
Or am I not allowed to share that? By your logic, I'm allowed to say "BIOWARE ARE IDIOTS THIS ENDING MAKES NO SENSE, RARAGH;LASDKG", but I'm not allowed to say "WOW, I REALLY FOUND THIS ENDING FASCINATING AND CLEVER, THANKS GUYS!"
Whatevs. Keep on hatin'.
you are most certainly allowed. which is why I said nothing to your original post personaly, not untill it went into "oh someone else gets it, I thought it got lost in TLDR posts.
and for the record, I don't think bioware are idiots. I think the ending is out of place with the rest of the narative.
P.S. I personaly think they should go with hallucination/last ditch indocrination by Harbinger assuming a shape of a child from Shepard's nightmaers attempt theory - starting with the point where Shepard loses contiousness next to the console. and have the choices determine some of the dialogue once Shepard wakes up (if Shepard wakes up) as well as reaper battle tactics/what the crucible does when it fires. keep all 3 choices as valid (regardless of how I feel about the green choice) and let both them and the prior preparations determing the state of the galaxy afterwards.
Modifié par jeweledleah, 18 mars 2012 - 10:23 .
#6258
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:24
http://pastebin.com/ivPggzTF
masterpiece!
#6259
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:26
Ref: calitreview.com/24673
After reading it, I have some thoughts which I'd like to share:
- The reference to 2001: Space Odyssey's end sequence in the article is interesting, I also thought of it. The differences between 2001's and ME3's are, 2001's does have logic and meaning to back up its narrative (although they aren't necessarily explained in the movie itself), and the viewer wasn't emotionally attached to the protagonist, done on purpose. Kubrick certainly knew what he was doing, his execution of the end sequence was masterful. The big difference in ME is that the viewers have such a great emotional attachment to Shepard, the audience is Shepard in many good ways; nonetheless the main issue is, ME3 final cutscene's execution is sloppy, as the article notes. The attempt at creating a profound and mystifying ending fails due to the many plotholes, audience's unpreparedness (and bafflement as a result) and the brevity of the final cutscene. Why the final cutscene which wraps up a whole series had to be around 5 minutes, is what mystifies me.
- Like I said in previous posts, I actually don't mind the concept of the god child AKA catalyst child. It's a nice twist, unexpected for some, not so much for others as deity characters have well been used in the past. Interaction with such a character can allow for a great opportunity to open profound conversations between man and god-like being. Regretfully, that conversation is made so brief in ME3 and Shepard (along with the viewer/gamer) is forced into a corner... and end of conversation. For better preparing the viewers for what's to follow, more interaction with the god child would indeed have helped, just like when Shepard conversed with Legion in ME2 (which is beautifully written). That Legion conversation was illuminating, the same can't be said for the god child's.
Question menu should have been made available to viewers in this "moment of truth" with the god child to not only engage the viewers but also to give them a deep and enriching exchange with the deity. Another failed attempt at creating something profound.
- Since this isn't a movie but game (a cinematic game), in that games can do what movies cannot, i.e. interactive storytelling, giving choices, recording gamers' performance and decisions (which Mass Effect games have done so well... till the ending), a 'special' option leading to a unique ending should have been made available to gamers who excelled in the game or throughout the whole series. That would also have enticed new comers to the series to go and play ME1/ME2 for obtaining that 'special' ending in ME3; hence great replay value!
That 'special' option in the "moment of truth" (with the god child) could have factored in the paragon/renegade points, war assets, love interest, or what have you... in other words, the many types of asset features being chosen and collected throughout the game series. BioWare should have made an ultimate use of them to unlock something special.
Say gamers had high points: Wouldn't it have been profound if Shepard as mere mortal managed to argue with the god child and proved to 'him' that humanity and the other life forms are worth saving... and that he managed to make peace between species, organics and synthetics (if gamer did so)... and that love and hope are at the center of humanity's evolution (if gamer had love interest, not just romance state), of all life forms, for even synthetics (if gamer helped Joker and EDI's relationship)... something along those lines. That would have worked so perfectly and naturally, and created an amazing oppotunity to talk about all those things, things which ultimately matter to the viewer, gamer... people in general.
Modifié par Dr_Hello, 18 mars 2012 - 10:27 .
#6260
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:30
Additionally the replay value of the franchise, and crushes interest in any future DLC(unless to fix the ending) Bioware thought we would purchase.
It's not an issue of "spending more time with our favorite characters", it's in providing a sense that the hundreds of hours spent with those characters were more important than just serving as interchangeable filler in a hopelessly predestined tale.
Holding The Line, but would personally prefer Bioware would get job done so we can all have a bit of closure.
#6261
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:36
N-Seven wrote...
GIEV DIZ PEEPHOLE AEYR wrote...
*sigh.
according to twitter they have great things in store but.......i just dont know if i trust them. we'll see. if they come out with the right dlc and bring some sense to this then maybe i can look back on this and smile. if they ARE able to fix this then it could be great. this game is so close to being a masterpiece for all time. come on BW.
i just pray that chuck norris didn't play this yet. otherwise we're all doomed
I have a feeling that we're going to be greatly disappointed by any DLC. I suspect it will be something like, "New ME3 DLC: Truth! Take Commander Shepard to a secret Cerberus research facility where they are conducting experiments on the nature of dark energy! Fight them with the new Ravager assault rifle and Talos body armor! Victory results in more War Assets to aid your final battle against the Reapers! Note, this DLC adventure takes place prior to the conclusion of the events of Mass Effect 3'.
Man, I'm totally pessimistic now.Before this, Bioware could do no wrong by me. Casey Hudson could run me over with his car and I'd lie there and give him a thumbs up and apologize for getting in the way.
im aiming towards that but i still hold out that bioware wont treat us this way. there must be something more to what we've seen. im a follower of the indoctrination theory (though some of it doesnt make much sense but 90 percent of it makes perfect sense). maybe thats it. if not, and they break us again. i am done with them. hell. ive tried to pick up any other game since beating ME3 two days ago. i just lost the will to play anything with any sort of investment. hell i even restarted ME1. maybe this is withdrawel lol. i dunno. it has to get better than just....this.
#6262
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:39
To say that by merging organics with synthetics all the destruction, war, chaos in the galaxy will automatically cease to exist is not only utopic dreaming, is a flagrant disregard for organics inherent capability to commit atrocities against one another. Not because of abstract, fluid concepts like good or evil, but because of basic survival for e.g.
Modifié par Le0n1, 18 mars 2012 - 10:41 .
#6263
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:39
All in all though ME 3 was an absolute masterpiece! And I LOVED the trilogy!
I really liked my Sherpard more and more into the game – she was hot, though and sensible at the same time and had a sense of humour (and boy was she hot!). And then she dies for nothing! The last scene is how they open the door of the normandy, which is to say: "What will happen to organic life now?" But that answer was already given by the Catalyst (why is he the little boy from her dreams?!): The whole thing is going to repeat itself.
Shepard made organic life (better yet a few chosen species) survive another cycle, but organic life is still doomed to be destroyed by synthetics, so in the long run everything I did in the 3 games was pointless (Well if I remember correctly the reaper in ME 1 says exactly that – yet it is kinda dissappointing that the ending you gave us says the same). This also kills the replay value for me.
#6264
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:40
Polat995 wrote...
Sorry but there is ending that can crush Bioware's epic fail ending:
http://pastebin.com/ivPggzTF
masterpiece!
But, that one is about a girl named "Sheppard". That kind of shows you the depth of the author's ME knowledge. . .
#6265
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:40
Signed,
Fan whose trust in Bioware has been shattered and who is hoping you will do the right thing to have aforementioned trust restored. God bless.
#6266
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:43
Control: What? The Illusive Man should NEVER be right simply because of all the horror he did in the name of "right." Why would the game suddenly do this? Control should be a lie. I said no, blue light!
Synthesis: Nothing but a type of Reaper. The same DNA will never promise peace. Javik would be ashamed. This cycle proved that organics and synthetics can get along, and no one gets along forever, not even humans. So screw you, green light.
Destroy: All I have to say is: EDI. The Geth. Cooler AI's have never existed. I fought for them to exist, and they fought for me. Nothing this kid says makes sense within the context of the rest of the series. So no thank you, Red light. (Unless that whole indoctrination theory is true. Then yes. But I should still wake up in London and then proceed to the actual end of the game.)
The words "So The Illusive Man was right all along?" Would (and should) never come out of Shepard's mouth. Blasphemy.
The destruction of the Mass Relays seems more genocidal than the Reapers picking out just the smart kids. The Turians and (especially) the Quarians would be a hundreds of years old or dead before making it back to their home worlds with FTL travel. And their home worlds would severely struggle without military presence.
Where are all my war assets I collected? Shouldn't this part of the game be a la ME2 where I got to see my ship upgrades directly affect the battle? I get my whole armada is there and that is a neat cutscene… but… That's about it. I was expecting at least some kind of recognition of my buddies from ME2 that were fighting on the front lines or like some of the people I saved/recruited. I mean I don't even care if some of them die. They're all prepared to go down fighting anyway. It would be weird if everyone came out alive.
And in regards to the "ending being happy" debate. I don't think ME3 can be happy, regardless of Shepard living or not. Earth is still a scorched mess. Thessia is still sacrificed to save everyone else. Holy God Palaven… Shepard still looses people very close to him. I'm sure most of those fleets will be lost. If he lives its not like he's going to be throwing confetti and unicorns on people, he'll probably go for a stiff drink. I wanted that triumphant Shep-smirk from ME1! Okay, I realize that is too specific, but Shepard has always defied the odds. That's what makes him so endearing. This game has always been about sacrifice and hope, regardless of what lies ahead. Why don't we deserve to have that hope rewarded? Especially if you have always played that way.
And God, oh God, WHY didn't I get to kick Harbinger's ass??? I was so looking forward to that day! And TIM. I wanted to kick his ass, too. I wanted to kick it so hard.
I'm not even touching the weird cutscene with Joker. That's just… I got nothing'
Star Wars with the end of 2001 a Space Odyssey does not a good movie make.
#6267
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:46
Ahem *clears throat*
"**** you, EA!"
#6268
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:50
My shortened two cents:
- War Assets barely affect outcome.
- Choice doesn't seem to matter in the end.
- Outof Character: Shepard blindly accepts the will of the reapers after he has been portrayed as an agent of Chaos/Rebellion throughout the series.
- Reaper motive is lacking. Was better when left unknown.
- All of the endings were virtually the same.
- Destruction of the relays opens way too many unanswered questions. Basically would cause the extinction of life in the galaxy (I don't want to have to go into this).
- No confrontation with alluded foe, Harbinger.
- Would love to see a wide variety of endings ranging from happy to sad
based on decisions throughout the game. However, if Shepard's sacrifice
is necessary, make it mean something. Make it feel like we actually
won.
[/list]The Indoctrination idea seems very well thought out and solves most of the problems that people, including myself, encountered within the last couple minutes of the game.
This as well:
http://www.gamefront...fans-are-right/
krogstor wrote...
I think I can say what everybody is thinking and completely sum up this whole situation.
Ahem *clears throat*
"**** you, EA!"
Please quit raging. This doesn't help anyone.
Modifié par Mbednar, 18 mars 2012 - 10:57 .
#6269
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:50
Polat995 wrote...
Sorry but there is ending that can crush Bioware's epic fail ending:
http://pastebin.com/ivPggzTF
masterpiece!
spot on, and yes, it realy does
#6270
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:51
so why are we railroaded into a color choice that is essentially a Pyrrhic victory no matter which color you pick, in a game that was not nearly as existential as Metro.. not to mention much MUCH lighter in tone?
#6271
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:54
Mbednar wrote...
krogstor wrote...
I think I can say what everybody is thinking and completely sum up this whole situation.
Ahem *clears throat*
"**** you, EA!"
Please quit raging. This doesn't help anyone.
Please stop avoiding the truth of the matter at hand, this doesn't help anyone.
#6272
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:56
jeweledleah wrote...
you know what's funny? I was just watching some Metro 2033 vids. I originally came across the game, becasue I loved the book. and the book is pretty existential. and doesn't come with a happy ending. I have yet to finish the game (mostly cause they made it pretty creepy and creepy games take me a while to finish), but I was looking for some guides and.. apparently, in a game. a game as dark as Metro, based on a dark story, a book - you have an option of a good ending. an option to save instead of destroy. it takes a great deal of effort. but its possible
so why are we railroaded into a color choice that is essentially a Pyrrhic victory no matter which color you pick, in a game that was not nearly as existential as Metro.. not to mention much MUCH lighter in tone?
The whole thing is ridiculous. And I do like how you summed up the desire for a happy ending. Most of us only worked our ass off through three games for it.
#6273
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 10:57
I am sure you guys have seen the original ending details - that were cut.
"The Reapers' goal was to find a way to stop the spread of Dark Energy which would eventually consume everything. That's why there was so much foreshadowing about Dark Energy in ME2.
The Reapers as a whole were 'nations' of people who had fused together in the most horrific way possible to help find a way to stop the spread of the Dark Energy. The real reason for the Human Reaper was supposed to be the Reapers saving throw because they had run out of time. Humanity in Mass Effect is supposedly unique because of it's genetic diversity and represented the universe's best chance at stopping Dark Energy's spread.
The original final choice was going to be "Kill the Reapers and put your faith in the races of the galaxy in finding another way to stop the spread with what little time is left" or "Sacrifice humanity, allowing them to be horrifically processed in hopes that the end result will justify the means."
http://www.gameranx....ies-conclusion/ - Karpyshyn's model of the ending (or the teams original model).
#6274
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 11:00
Have you guys ever seen the Clive Owen movie "I'll sleep when I'm dead."? In this movie Clive has a brother who is a two-bit criminal having an awesome day. He has sold some drugs, just got laid and overall had a great day. On his way home he suddently gets grabbed by two big thugs and pulled into a wharehouse where he gets sodomized by some random stranger. Afterwards, he goes home and kills himself because he can't understand how such an awesome day came to have such a horrible ending. His whole life is not worth living.
I feel like that character in that movie, suddenly ambushed by Bioware and sodomized, bringing to a terrible ending the great day I had been having. I stood in shock afterwards and could understand the feelings of the character in that movie because I no longer wanted anything to do with the ME franchise.
Thanks Bioware, this is what your "ending" has done to your franchise. Your "ending" is indeed something we'll never forget, as much as some guy who gets sodomized could never forget it or live with it. Neither can we live with this "ending" as fans of the franchise.
Signed,
Fan who is hoping you will do the right thing and give us a real ending, one that reflects our choices in the game, gives resolutions to the relationships and storylines we developed and engaged with in the game and a closure to the franchise. God bless.
#6275
Posté 18 mars 2012 - 11:01
krogstor wrote...
Mbednar wrote...
krogstor wrote...
I think I can say what everybody is thinking and completely sum up this whole situation.
Ahem *clears throat*
"**** you, EA!"
Please quit raging. This doesn't help anyone.
Please stop avoiding the truth of the matter at hand, this doesn't help anyone.
No one is avoiding the truth. Just try to stay concise, courteous, and truthful. You won't get anywhere just giving the finger to EA/Bioware.
We've already shaken them up a bit. Just keep ringing the point home that you have a problem with the endings.
BE CONSTRUCTIVE.




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