I read your post entirely, also refreshing. But I see a main flaw in the Reaper's conception of organic life being representative of "chaos". Organic life, as we can see it today, is an extremely elaborate form of "order" and "organisation". In essence, "chaos" is a state in which matter has very little organisation, and I would guess any advanced form of intelligence, biological or artificial, would know that.sp0ck 06 wrote...
The Starkid's motivation was not borne out of trying to preserve life, but preserve order. Thus I think the ending s less about the literal "i build synthetics to kill organics to prevent them building synthetics to kill them" and more about deep question of order vs chaos.
On the Mass Effect 3 endings. Yes, we are listening.
#7476
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 06:46
#7477
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 06:47
Alesteir wrote...
I'd least have to ask what'd happen to my friend's,my allies,races I helped,my love if the answer's were bad or evasive I'd refuse any of the option's then find my own way. If I'd do that I know shepard would.
Exactly. Even if Shepard is indoctrinated he/she still cares about is companions and that is a bond that the Reapers definetly cant break.
#7478
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 06:51
It looks like a good old classical riddle : you only have one chance to know the answer, an can only ask one question. You have to go through one of two guarded doors, one leads to your death, the other to salvation. You have a liar and and "paragon" that always tells the truth as the "guards", and you don't know which is what. What question could be asked to any of the guards to find which is the good door?Twinzam.V wrote...
Iconoclaste wrote...
I read all of your long post. Many things to discuss in there, refreshing. For the quoted matter only, I would suppose this "catalyst" to be wise enough not to reveal itself with this kind of intervention before the need arises. If Shepard had encountered a frightening figure speaking with a thundering voice on the Citadel, just prior to the final decision, would he have felt the same "equivalence" to the choices offered to him?The "child" representation is surely not a random one, since it almost by itself suffices to influence Shepard towards a more "comprehensive" mood.Kiransalee wrote...
Caveat: If the Catalyst has always been there, why did it allow the Protheans to make the modifications to the Keepers’ that ruins the Reapers from gating in at the citadel? It tells you it has control of the Reapers, seems like it could just flip the switch itself.
But think about it if someone out of nowhere appeared before you with the button to a possible doomsday device, wouldnt you ask for more details before pressing the button. How do you know that he's telling the truth?
Shepard is strangely "resigned" in two of three choices, and only after the "destroy" option does he wake up in the rubble. This is, in my opinion, a strong hint that everything is not happening in the Citadel. How could Shepard get back down to Earth?
Modifié par Iconoclaste, 20 mars 2012 - 07:07 .
#7479
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 06:52
#7480
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 06:59
But please no god child out of the box, trying to be philosophical.
#7481
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 07:03
Iconoclaste wrote...
It looks like a good old classical riddle : you only have one chance to know the answer, an can only ask one question. You have to go through one of two guarded doors, one leads to your death, the other to salvation. You have a liar and and "paragon" that always tells the truth as the "guards", and you don't know which is what. What question could be asked to any of the guards to find which is the good door?Twinzam.V wrote...
Iconoclaste wrote...
I read all of your long post. Many things to discuss in there, refreshing. For the quoted matter only, I would suppose this "catalyst" to be wise enough not to reveal itself with this kind of intervention before the need arises. If Shepard had encountered a frightening figure speaking with a thundering voice on the Citadel, just prior to the final decision, would he have felt the same "equivalence" to the choices offered to him?The "child" representation is surely not a random one, since it almost by itself suffices to influence Shepard towards a more "comprehensive" mood.Kiransalee wrote...
Caveat: If the Catalyst has always been there, why did it allow the Protheans to make the modifications to the Keepers’ that ruins the Reapers from gating in at the citadel? It tells you it has control of the Reapers, seems like it could just flip the switch itself.
But think about it if someone out of nowhere appeared before you with the button to a possible doomsday device, wouldnt you ask for more details before pressing the button. How do you know that he's telling the truth?
Shepard is strangely "resigned" in two of three choices, and only after the "destroy" option does he wake up in the rubble. This is, in my opinion, a strong hint that everything is not happening in the Citadel. How could Shepard get back down to Earth?
That's the indoctrination theory at work, that Harbinger tried once again to bring Shepard to their side. Since controling the Reapers is not an option, Javik mentioned that, and sinergy.... Well basically youre joining yourself with the devil.
The lack of possibility to make that old riddle question is a small nod to what Shepard is experiencing is not real.
Modifié par Twinzam.V, 20 mars 2012 - 07:13 .
#7483
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 07:06
#7484
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 07:07
Telmanket wrote...
Everything's fine until the god child pops up. I would have been more satisfied seeing Shepard die at the side of Anderson, than listening to the nonsense reason of this god child. (we kill all hightechlive, so it doesn't get killed by AIs). Then the comrades might get a death or alive scene on the battlefield depending on the gathered fleet strengh, and then maybe a scene of the mourning survivors over the dead.
But please no god child out of the box, trying to be philosophical.
Hear, hear.
#7485
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 07:08
Archonsg wrote...
In case it wasn't clear, that last bit with the old codger and the kid who asks "Tell me another story of The Shepard", it IS NOT the Normandy survivors but a rather blatant "advert" telling you, "You want more stories of the Shepard, buy DLCs."
Orrr it was an attempt at Bioware's own music video, foretold in 2011
Hold the line
#7486
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 07:08
I had both Geth and Quarians, but only Quarians were represented. The Rachni were completely absent. On the ground, I had no Quarian, Turian, Krogan, Salarian STG, Rachni backup.
None of my choices were represented in the ending.
Not to mention everything after Harbinger's beam, the plot holes, lapses in logic, non-sequiters, character teleportation, canon violations, etc. etc.
#7487
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 07:12
As far as I can see the main issues are more choice in the ending, and a satisfactory resolution of the fates of Shepherd and various other characters. Sure, there are other problems with the game (ie compulsory multiplayer for a “best” ending) but these ideas hopefully allow an opportunity to address them.
DLC #1 Defy the Odds
The reaper child offers options that are a pretty miserable for those who wanted to see choice. As has been pointed out by folks, the choices on offer, while they address three possibilities, don’t really derive from Shepherd's decisions.
The solution is to create a DLC mission that offers Shepherd another choice or perspective on the current ones. It can be a self-contained mission set before the final couple of missions, based on several hooks including
-Enough crucible war assets (or one of the missions that adds to these) being discovered for new information to come to light on the crucible’s purpose.
-Javik coming clean on some aspect of Prothean history – if he is in the party.
-Some sort of stuff up at the crucible facility that sends Shepherd there to fix things.(with more Katsumi)
From there, a possible visit to a Prothean ruin, or other facility in some sort of trouble (ie with things to shoot) reveals some hints about the crucible’s function, and places Shepherd on track to reject the child’s offerings, as well as some method by which this can be achieved.
At the end, Shepherd has some choices based on his past decisions and new knowledge of the crucible. It still results in the end battle we saw in the main game, but with some new knowledge, perceptions and options for the final scene. A new meaning to the destruction of the mass relays could be offered as part of this, or even the avoidance of that option.
Even without messing with the end, it could allow Shepherd to go through the motions of the child's choices, but with a secret agenda or asset of his own. He still has to get to the citadel and the catalyst has to be started for these to play out, so the end run counts, possibly even with more urgency.
It also allows for multiplayer, or some battles over the secondary macguffin, and even resources such as the Rachni could appear again to help if it involves missions on the crucible.
No major restructure of the end is required, content can simply be added where necessary to reflect these choices and resultant consequences.
DLC #2 Escape the Citadel
The second idea tries to fix the absence of the NPCs in the final moments of the game, and close the game with a more personal mission. It is a bit more vague except for some high concepts for single and multi player DLC. They do involve repurposing some of the final scenes with different meanings and extending the timing of the endgame out.
We’ve seen that Shepherd usually dies and I think that is very hard to change. However for various reasons, whether through one original game, the power of the catalyst or a result of other DLC, Shepherd is alive, but sits awaiting the end on the citadel, which is collapsing around him. (Shepherd has already defied death once anyhow)
On top of that (and this involves shifting the end sequence around) Harbinger, the biggest and oldest of the reapers is on its way or trashing the place to get him, for various reasons involving his centrality to the resolution. In this idea, the timing of Shepherds decision is played out more slowly than in the original version.
Several options arise here, such as an escape mission by Shepherd and/or a rescue mission by the crew members. Harbinger can have been gloating over them following the pre citadel scenes, telling them that the catalyst will be their doom or some other great monologue about Shepherd’s fate on the citadel. More Harbinger smack talk cant be a bad thing after all. Basically the NPCs have an idea what’s going on, and all the loyalty or fear that motivated them through the game drives the rescue attempt, or leads them to Shepherd in time for an escape.
Scenes involving the surviving other crew from ME2 (if alive) could be brought in but gameplay is centred on the ME3 characters' drive to get to Shepherd or escape with him (a la the DA prison level). Multiplayer DLC can stay similar to the main game, but with levels either on the citadel or Earth below, and objectives based on alliance soldiers or other races helping the crew get to Shepherd, or cover their escape (but not compulsory MP please!)
The result is a battle with Harbinger, a worthy and longstanding foe, and a mission on the disintegrating citadel. At the end Joker is still fleeing but with crew and Shepherd in the Normandy, and from the citadel not the relay. Even the fleet could be brought in as a backdrop, helping against Harbinger or being allowed to get some distance. People happy with the original version will have had a chance to reconsider options during the escape but will also have the chance to play put an epic battle against Harbinger and everything he throws at them in the final confrontation.
What we also get is a slightly different ending, due to the changed circumstances. Possibility we get either a revised cutscene of the survivors or even a simple text box of who made it.
Hope this helps. Have only thought this through quickly and looked at a broad framework, but I see plenty of opportunity for some great gameplay and story additions. Hopefully they also give us reason to get excited about more choice and more of the good ME stuff. It'd be nice if Bioware sould start announcing new content that moves past this situation and gets everybody keen on both DLC for its own sake, and for the endgame implications.
The fact is that Bioware can't engage in a major project for no profit, so we wont see a patch to fix the end. What we can hope for is quality DLC that makes us want to play out the endgame sequence again, or for those happy with the end, gives some new missions that are reason enough to play alone.
Folks upset by the original ending shouldn’t lose hope, as its early days and there is still plenty of scope for things to turn around. I'm sure Bioware is listening, they just need some practical ways to make storytelling coincide with good business.
cheers
#7488
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 07:12
#7489
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 07:14
This is a great YouTube video I came across today in which a fan lays out a great idea for multiple endings which would 1. Hold true to the trilogy, 2. Provide an ample "plot twist" that Bioware and EA feel they need to shove in our faces, 3. Answer the questions we have about our characters and our actions, and 4. Make our decisions matter more than what it is now (if your EMS is too low in one choice, all life is vaporized. Here is the link. Please watch it.
BioWare and EA, you have disappointed me in ways I never imagined that you could. I sincerely hope that you correct this error of epic proportions and give the true fans of this amazing series the ending we all deserve.
Please note that I am only criticizing the ending (yes I say ending as there is only 1 ending in 3 tints not 16 as promised) as 95% of the game was AMAZING. I was set to say ME3 was the best work Bioware and EA had ever done until the last 5-15 minutes of the game in which all of that got thrown out of the window.
Good day.
#7490
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 07:18
I'm an avowed lurker, not particularly posting or even visiting these forums much outside of the release periods for the games. That said, after finishing ME3 and reviewing the feedback, I have been motivated to surface.
Warning: Possible Wall of Text approaching, ok, not so much possible as a fact
Spoilers, obviously
Things I Disliked:
The lack of more roleplaying experiences during the opening. I can understand desiring an in media res opening, but after campaigning through ME1/DLC and ME2/DLC, notably Arrival, I was expecting (granted, an assumption) that I would experience a scene more reminiscient of Tali's trial in ME2, with more dialog and debate options. It felt like a missed chance for Paragon/Renegade options that helped to craft the launch of ME3 Shepard. It may have also provided a good launchpad for reviewing the decisions and results being carried forward from save games/default Shepards.
I constantly kept searching for more empathy for the situation on Earth. My Shepard has only tangentally touched Earth, and I found myself more empathetic to the alien races, noticably the Geth, with whom Shepard has spent so much more time, if in some cases, in combat. I wished I could have spent more time moving about in the Earth zones, talking to more people, possibly helping add gravity to the Reaper attack if those people I had only befriended shortly before (in gameplay terms) suddenly died or were saved. The boy in the vent (theories on his importance and later appearance aside) is a good start, but doesn't really deliver the gravity of examples like Mordin (granted, you have more history there). My Shepard has spent years saving the galaxy, not Earth, so I felt a detachment to the whole event that in itself felt misplaced; I should have cared more.
The face import feature failed to import my Shepard, causing her to appear to have had an allergic reaction. This was fairly easy to remedy, but seemed like an area in which weak support had been given, in light of the previous games' success in importing. I really appreciated the codes in ME2 being available for sharing/redo-ing, and I felt a noticable lack of them when I replayed ME1 afterwards.
Mars seemed too short, but in light of the Reapers' approach to Earth, maybe it had to be. Still, I would have liked to spend more time running around in the Prothean site. I did like that I thought it was Miranda at first, not Eva.
Having Ashley out for most of the game was galling. After ME2's Horizon meeting, bridging that gap was very important to me and the absence of her from the party felt contrived and forced. It was like I was being denied for the sake of denial, not for better story. It didn't add anything to the gravity of her injuries or make me feel like she was in danger, it just removed her from my story.
Wrex seemed different. Granted, he's a politician of sorts now, but his voice especially felt off. I missed old Wrex the whole time, although I also missed him in ME2. I'd have loved to have him shooting things with big guns alongside me again.
The Citadel seemed small. In ME1, despite having to endure some decent walks and long elevators rides, the Citadel felt BIG. In ME3, its just too confined and limited.
I was pretty disappointed in the load screens. Load screens, being a console (360) player, are a bane of my existence in general, but they always seem like an opportunity that gets missed. If I have to stare at something for any length of time, make it worth my while. Some screens show tips, similar to ME2, but what about possibly showing random Codex entries? I am not always the most thorough in reading my codex, and I always feel a little shamed because I think BW puts a good bit of effort into them. If the load screen popped up random codex entries I've already discovered, I'd see them more often and they might be more powerful sources of in-game information.
I was grumpy about the Disc swapping. The first N7 mission caused me to have to disc swap, and I felt that it was obivous that the mission should be on the first disc, since it's bound to be tackled virtually immediately. Not so much that I had to get up and go change the disc, but it jarred my immersion a bit and brought me back into reality versus keeping me engaged.
The ending. Lots has been said and I tend to follow the "I don't like it" group. Up until the beam hits Shepard, things are just fine for me. I did not like the slow motion combat as Shepard moves into the beam, lacking powers and all of the things accumulated over the course of the game. While I was expecting a boss fight, I'm not hung up on the absence either, but the encounter with the boy is awkward and feels rushed. It felt like Shepard was witnessing the conversation versus participating in it, a much different experience than the rest of the trilogy. Even my wife, who has witnessed my entirety of my ME1,2 and 3 playthroughs, and enjoys the stories without being a player of them, was taken aback by the ending. Her remark was, "That's all?" I enjoyed the ending of Dragon Age: Origins a lot, even though I wished it had been done in cutscenes instead of text, but I can appreciate the difficulties in attempting that and deciding against cutscenes. Still, after all that we've been through in ME, to not really see where our friends go off to and what are deeds result in was pretty jarring. I agree that ME3 is kind of one big ending, but there are many unanswered questions, more than are answered. The lack of a thorough denouement was basically 'story interruptus'.
I miss the Mako. I think I might be the only one. While trudging across the terrain was tiresome, it did add an element of realism to the game and when the action started, the Mako was a nice change of pace. I think ME1 needed less Mako, but a complete absence felt like I was missing a squadmate. If the Normandy is a 'character', why isn't the Mako? It did, after all, carry you to the Citadel in ME1 to achieve your final victory.
What I liked:
Andersen. Yay. He's our man. I liked him since the beginning of ME1, and his resolute, unwavering personality remain true throughout the series. I like that he cares, that he 'gets it', and that he's on your side.
Joker, Again, yay. He's also our man. He's got the wisecracks, he's got the skills. My only real complaint was that he didn't show up in an Atlas with EDI as an AI assist to blow some BBEG's head to kingdom come when all other hope was lost.
EDI. Maybe a bit of a club over the head in terms of her body, but a nice homage and an interesting dialog tree and general experience in terms of her AI evolution and relationship with Joker.
Companions in different locations and with their own inter-companion dialogs. I really liked that your crew actually debarked to the Citadel and appeared in different locations, even having location specific dialogs. I liked when they talked to each other on board the Normandy. It made them feel more realistic and not just satellites of the Planet Shepard.
ME2 companion sidequests. I especially liked Grissom Academy and Sanctuary. Grissom had so many things tied to it from ME2/DLC/expanded ME universe that it felt very real and woven into ME.
Combat. I am not a 'combat' player. I can't aim worth spit. It's the reason I played a Vanguard in ME1, so I could run up and shoot them in the face with a shotgun. Still, since ME2, I've been a Sentinel and much better at fighting thanks to the improved aspects of combat. I like the new cover system, as I agreed cover was basically all there was to ME2 combat. Hide and shoot, repeat. ME3 was a quantum leap forward. I like that Bad Guys had tactics and different styles and approaches, both in terms of what type of unit they were and also in the 'race' they came from. I like that fighting Cerberus felt different from fighting Reapers, etc.
The thresher maw eating a Reaper. After facing them in ME1 and learning to hate them, it is about time they paid me back. The only thing I fear? When that thing comes back as whatever Reapers turn Thresher Maws into...
Thane. Wow. I loved that whole hospital scene when you first can see him and I loved his death. I loved his intervention versus Leng. His whole arc in ME3. Perfection. Possibly the thing I liked most in the whole game.
Grunt. He's my little baby Wrex. I loved his whole arc in ME3 and I literally dropped my jaw when he came out, blood-soaked, but alive.
The inside jokes are great. A nice nod to the folks that played ME1/2 and to the things we endured, like bad dancing. Very nice touch and a warm and fuzzy feeling.
London. This fight felt like the fight I should have had on Palaven's moon. It finally felt like a war.
That's about all I can muster for now. Overall, a great game, with an abrupt and unsatisfying ending. It's full of great moments, and great adventures, that lead to an expectation of a great ending. The quality of work and the story are beyond peer.
J
#7491
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 07:18
Thornquist wrote...
I LOVED MASS EFFECT 3!
Want all at Bioware to know that.
Mordins death, Thane, Garrus.. I cant choose the best part, there were so many moments of pure genius!
Try saving Legion to allow for the Reaper code upload to the Geth and Tali commits Suicide, Legion burns himself out finishing the upload and the Quarian fleet gets whacked for not obeying the ceasefire given by Commander Shepard. Thats hmm 3 Deaths, provided you let the paragon evet pass unanswered before Tali takes the plunge .vs 1 death of Legion if you paragon against the Geth and side with the Quarians. Tali gets her house in that one.
I beat the game in 25 hours for the first run thru and have gotten up to level 55 and trying to secure all help for the final battle in full Renegade for my second run through. Also, I reinstalled Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2 in an effort to see who I could kill/save for Paramour....etc.
I have no problem with the ending(s) provided by Bioware/EA for this 3rd installment of the Mass Effect story. Little sad that I am not in the final cut and no matter what, neither is my love interest there either. I plan to purchase all DLC for Mass Effect 3 as they appear to see how many endings I can come up with. Contrary to popular whineing, Bioware promised us many endings and a gazillion choices, they did not promise to play the game for us and flash it up on the IMAX in full 100 foot high ultra-CGI feature length film.
Keep up the good work Bioware
Matt Shepard
#7492
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 07:19
Crellis wrote...
Archonsg wrote...
In case it wasn't clear, that last bit with the old codger and the kid who asks "Tell me another story of The Shepard", it IS NOT the Normandy survivors but a rather blatant "advert" telling you, "You want more stories of the Shepard, buy DLCs."
Orrr it was an attempt at Bioware's own music video, foretold in 2011
Hold the line
It....... changes color too........
Ok this can be just a coincidence.
Modifié par Twinzam.V, 20 mars 2012 - 07:23 .
#7493
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 07:20
#7494
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 07:23
noxpanda wrote...
Chris Priestly wrote...
What was your favorite moment?
Legions mission of wandering about the geth hub, awesome fun, nice change of pace from 'cover, shoot stuff!', interesting to see the history of the geth from their perspective, the level felt very labyrinth like, shame it wasnt longer
And then making peace between the Geth and the Quarians?
Yes, it's been said a million times since then, but it's completely backstabbing to have the Catalyst tell you there can never be peace between synthetics and organics. Didn't I just prove him wrong on Rannoch?
#7495
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 07:23
Modifié par Lordambitious, 20 mars 2012 - 07:23 .
#7496
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 07:23
aggmorpheus wrote...
Instead of crying about the shaft how bout we get together and see if Bioware will let us build mods to add to our games?
There are already action groups dedicated to making mods for ME3 to alter the endings actively searching for programmers, CGI experts, and the like in order to make this happen.
#7497
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 07:24
Tiamatshade wrote...
noxpanda wrote...
Chris Priestly wrote...
What was your favorite moment?
Legions mission of wandering about the geth hub, awesome fun, nice change of pace from 'cover, shoot stuff!', interesting to see the history of the geth from their perspective, the level felt very labyrinth like, shame it wasnt longer
And then making peace between the Geth and the Quarians?
Yes, it's been said a million times since then, but it's completely backstabbing to have the Catalyst tell you there can never be peace between synthetics and organics. Didn't I just prove him wrong on Rannoch?
Also been said a million times that this is a plot hole. So what now Starchild?
Modifié par Twinzam.V, 20 mars 2012 - 07:26 .
#7498
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 07:25
aggmorpheus wrote...
Instead of crying about the shaft how bout we get together and see if Bioware will let us build mods to add to our games?
Belittling brings nobody to your side.
#7499
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 07:25
Tali getting drunk.
And the quarian infiltrator in multiplayer mutters "BOSHTET" when she gets knocked out.
Always gives me a smile.
#7500
Posté 20 mars 2012 - 07:31
Oceansevan wrote...
aggmorpheus wrote...
Instead of crying about the shaft how bout we get together and see if Bioware will let us build mods to add to our games?
There are already action groups dedicated to making mods for ME3 to alter the endings actively searching for programmers, CGI experts, and the like in order to make this happen.
Cant wait to see how my xbox gets all those wonderful mods......




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