23455 réponses à ce sujet

[furiousjimmy]

xFyre1 wrote...



My angle on the indoctrination theory:

First of all, I disliked the endings like everyone else. For the sake of the fans, the future of the series and even their corporate interests, something must be done about it. We were promised that our choices would impact the end, and got the exact opposite.

I have just watched this www.youtube.com/watch video, and here's what I think about it.

The amount of information leading to that conclusion is ludicrous. There is very strong evidence in there, such as nobody noticing the kid, the trees from Shepard's dreams in his surroundings after he gets hit by the beam, and many others. It is almost an undeniable theory, but that would mean that Bioware had this planned all along, carefully introducing all of these subtle elements and details now precieved as evidence that the theory is true.


The only thing that rubs me the wrong way is the presence of the Normandy crash and "Stargazer" cutscenes. If this was all a dream, why would they exist?


It would've been far more logical if we were presented with a cliffhanger. Sure, it might've incited all of this anyway, but it wouldn't present so many continuity issues. If this turns out to be true, it looks like a very dangerous manouver by BW, but an absolutely brilliant one.

Regardless, I have faith in them and hope something is done to fix this soon.

The most important thing about the Indoctrination theory that people keep forgetting is that Shepard is knocked out from Harbinger's blast as he's running to the beam to reach the Citadel(This is where things immediately get awkward, from the view, to the story, to EVERYTHING) then after the entire nonsense ending, is when Shepard WAKES UP from being unconscious: Thus implying that they were trying to indoctrinate him while he was knocked out, and had you picked the other two options which don't show him waking up, that'd have been a success. Following this is the credits, which is followed by the Stargazer part, which implies there is DLC coming. This is why the Indoctrination theory is so catching, because there's a fair amount of logic to support it. 

Modifié par furiousjimmy, 20 mars 2012 - 01:00 .

[Lord_Durin]

 I for one enjoy the possibilities of Indoctrination theory, and although its been posted before, you should watch this if you haven't already:www.youtube.com/watch
I may not agree with all the points in this video, most of them line up surprisingly well. My favorite is the sudden switch of Anderson's association with renegade and TIM's association with paragon. The largest complaint of indoctrination theory that i have heard is that Shepard wasn't in contact with reaper tech long enough to become indoctrinated. To this I say re-read the codex entry on indoctrination. indoctrination can happen quickly, but at a cost. When Shepard gets knocked out (for who knows how long) making the run to the conduit on earth, Harbinger has ample time to start a quick indoctrination. Harbinger won't care that Shepard won't be useful for long because the alternative is shepard makes it to the citadel and wipes out the reapers.

The sad thing about this entire situation though is that I (and many others) are more willing to accept this ending that we've made up than we want to believe that the game ends the way Bioware wrote it.

Here's to hoping for a new ending.

[Archonsg]

One good thing to come out of this "ending" fiasco is seeing just who the shills are. Any review who does not objectively review Mass Effect 3 in its entirety, who did not describe the ending as it, even if favorable, meant that they didn't even complete the game and published a review based on how much EA / Bioware is paying them.

Those who blow fracking smooke of wonderment about how good and uplifting ME3 was, good to know you guys aren't only shills, but also on crack.

Those who belittle us, the customer and go on about how "entitled" we are, screw you, I don't need to ever go back to you site to read an article that others would honestly and subjectively review.

As for Bioware. I'll echo others in here that regardless of what you do, I hope people will remember you for your greed. You either did this to "punk" us and sell an alternate / "The Real Ending" expansion or you guys truly thought that people would not see the ending for the pile of crap it was and thought "Hey they didn't really expect us to give them multiple endings based on player choice did they?"

As a consumer I thankfully can vote with my wallet, I'll never purchase anything from EA / Bioware based on faith of a Brand.

As Aria would say " You guys just went right to the top of my **** list."

[NikolaiShade]

@xFyre1

If the Indoctrination Theory is correct (call me stupid but I'm a believer) then the Normandy crashing is just a construct of Shepard's mind suggested by the Reapers to further ensure the indoctrination itself (to put it simply: Look they're alive, stop fighting, surrender).

The Stargazer scene, at least for me, is the real ending of ME3, Shepard is really long dead, but there's still one last story to be told.

Even if the Indctrination Theory is not correct, the presence of the vanishing child is a little strange.

Edit: btw, if you pick the other two options, you could still continue, but with some interesting twists in the end (Shepard surrenders totally? Garrus has to put him out? Shepard kills himself in the end to ensure victory? Or maybe he resists at the last moment?). On a related point, it's me or one of the first images of ME2 was Legion with Shepard's armor?

Modifié par NikolaiShade, 20 mars 2012 - 01:13 .

[xFyre1]

NikolaiShade wrote...

@xFyre1

If the Indoctrination Theory is correct (call me stupid but I'm a believer) then the Normandy crashing is just a construct of Shepard's mind suggested by the Reapers to further ensure the indoctrination itself (to put it simply: Look they're alive, stop fighting, surrender).

The Stargazer scene, at least for me, is the real ending of ME3, Shepard is really long dead, but there's still one last story to be told.

Even if the Indctrination Theory is not correct, the presence of the vanishing child is a little strange.

Don't get me wrong, I'm hoping it is true as well, it would be absolutely genius.

It's just that a lot of things are out of place. Luckily, most of them support the theory.

[Miguelitosoyyo]

Hi everyone,              
I think EA and Bioware have the right to end the trilogy as they please
cause it's their product but they also have to be ready to put up with
all the criticism from all the very many followers the saga has. And
most of the criticism is right in my opinion, I mean, all the saga is
based on choice and consequence but the ending is the same no matter
what you did. To me it's a shame, cause the game was so epic till that 
final push to the conduit, Tuchanka, Rannoch, Cerberus... But the ending
made all of that pointless cause it doesn't have any effect you rally
all species together, that you managed peace between synthetics (geth)
and organics (quarians), the EMS is pointless, being renegade or paragon
is pointless. You come to a point where you choose from three slightly
different, convergent and contradictory endings. In every ending, the
mass relays are destroyed, and from the events on Arrival, when a mass
relay is destroyed it goes supernova killing everything in the system so
no matter what you do, you get a galactic holocaust. Not to talk about a
massive fleet stranded in the Sol system. And many more things. ME3 was
10/10 until that final push, they had at hand the best game/saga in a
very, very long time but missed the last shot.              
If I were EA and Bioware I'd evaluate how much DLC I had prepared and
how much profit I expected from it cause the ending in my opinion drops
replayability to 0. There is no point in replaying to see what happens
with different choices, same ending. I understand giving in to the fans
and changing the end sets a dangerous precedent but if the ending
question was a last minute change as in kotor 2 (there was a lot of
press talking about 16 vastly different endings), and they don't have to
make different endings from scratch, I may give it a shot if I wanted
to sell my prepared DLC.               
In any case I'd like to congratulate the dev team because from ME1 till
that final push you guys gifted me with the very best gaming hours
ever. Outstanding job. It's a pity all this ending quarrel, but again,
thank you and great job. 

[NikolaiShade]

xFyre1 wrote...


Don't get me wrong, I'm hoping it is true as well, it would be absolutely genius.

It's just that a lot of things are out of place. Luckily, most of them support the theory.

The "call me stupid..." part was not meant for you directly mate, sorry. Anyway yes, we are trying to make order from chaos, if it was BioWare's plan all along then they are geniuses...evil genius but still geniuses nonetheless

[Ottemis]

I think if you take the endings for what they are, they make perfect sense.
I'm personally not buying the indoctrination theory.

If there's one thing true it's that people, when they don't want to accept what's right infront of them, grasp at straws to find ways to make peace with what they have to deal with.
If this gives people comfort, that's fair enough. But for me, no. And I don't need it to be true.

That's not to say I'm per say happy with the endings as things stand, but I can see the beauty in what we've got regardless.

[Absurdest Derivative]

I doubt anyone from BioWare is going to read my little comment on page 305, but I want to say something to you guys anyway. I will not hate you even if the endings as they are stand, but if they turn out to have been a mindscrew all along ... well played, my friends. Well played.

You have already given me some of my favorite games, but such unprecedented, cunning sleight of hand would deserve kudos beyond my ability to express.

[Rubicon83]

Ottemis wrote...

I think if you take the endings for what they are, they make perfect sense.
I'm personally not buying the indoctrination theory.

If there's one thing true it's that people, when they don't want to accept what's right infront of them, grasp at straws to find ways to make peace with what they have to deal with.
If this gives people comfort, that's fair enough. But for me, no. And I don't need it to be true.

That's not to say I'm per say happy with the endings as things stand, but I can see the beauty in what we've got regardless.

Well said ^^

[Barooms]

Bioware, Bioware, Are you listenning ? I'm not sure cause you'dnot listen your original script. It was great, kind of perfect. Then You sell your soul to EA, and give us a filthy ending, thinking we're blind and stupid.

[Lord_Durin]

Absurdest Derivative wrote...

I doubt anyone from BioWare is going to read my little comment on page 305, but I want to say something to you guys anyway. I will not hate you even if the endings as they are stand, but if they turn out to have been a mindscrew all along ... well played, my friends. Well played.

You have already given me some of my favorite games, but such unprecedented, cunning sleight of hand would deserve kudos beyond my ability to express.

They may not notice you're post on page 305, but they will certianly notice 305 pages of discussion on this thread!

[rosscb]

 Dear Bioware,

This is the first time I've posted in a forum like this, and I hope that someone from your firm takes a moment to read my thoughts on Mass Effect 3. 

I'm not an avid gamer; I'm a 28 year old professional with a young family. I buy the big annual Xbox releases, the FIFA's, the Grand Theft Autos, Skyrim etc, maybe four or five games a year. 

But since 1998 and the release of Baldur's Gate, I have consistently bought Bioware's games, and have always thoroughly enjoyed them. I loved the cinematic scope, the wonderful characters (Minsc and Boo!), the rich sweeping storyline that put me, the protagonist, in the starring role of a hero against the world. It's epic stuff, and it's fundamental success is down to how beautifully written these adventures were. All in all, I must have spent hundreds of dollars on Bioware games since Baldurs Gate. 

Mass Effect was no exception, and I remember playing the game at 3 in the morning when I should have been writing my thesis; instead my thoughts were preoccupied with the liara vs ashley debate...

I was so excited about Mass Effect 3; my Commander Shepard was waiting to fulfil his destiny and destroy the reapers. I loved it... it's was Bioware at its best, and atmosphere of conflict and the feeling of galaxy locked in a desperate war was intoxicating. The death of Thane was stunningly written and truly moving. 

And then the ending happened. 

I felt angry, and probably a bit cheated. I thought it was rushed, pretty nonsensical, and lacked any of the real emotional depth that has marked Bioware's games. 

Commander Shepard is Bioware's character - you created him. But he / she also belongs to each of us. I created my own, unique Shepard in 2008, almost five years ago. For five years, he's been a part of my life. I don't want to sound over the top, but I feel fundatmentally like you cheated my Shepard out of his life. 

Don't even get me started when I discovered the Shepard survives only IF you choose the right option at the end and play the multiplayer game. I have neither the time or the inclination to play the multiplayer game. I shouldn't have to..!!! You are effectively blackmailing us players, players who have spent years with this character, and telling us we have to play multiplayer if we want any chance of Shepard to survive. Disgraceful.

And even if we acquience to Bioware's Illusive Man like determination to control us and play multiplayer, we still don't have any sense of finality or closure with regards to the crew of the Normandy. 

At the end of my game, only Joker, Ashley and Garrus wearily crawl out of the stricken, and look around at each other as if to say, "Why on earth have Bioware landed us on this random jungle planet?" So what about Liara or Tali - characters you spent years making me care about, only to discard at the end. You can't have it both ways - you created characters that we care about, and so we need to see those characters complete their respective narratives. 

And finally, there's the love interest issue. It's somewhat irrelevant how our Shepards' feel. My Shepard fell head over heels with Miranda. He was strung along the narrative by false promises of a fulfilling love story, only to realise too late there was no such thing, only two or three dialogues vaguely talking about hooking up. How about fleshing that one out a bit, eh?

Please, Bioware, for the sake of years we have spent together, restore my faith in your ability to write a story worthy of the years I've spent with my Shepard. 

Please, please, please... fix the ending. 

Yours sincerely

Ross. 

[MysticFred]

Ottemis wrote...

I think if you take the endings for what they are, they make perfect sense.
I'm personally not buying the indoctrination theory.

If there's one thing true it's that people, when they don't want to accept what's right infront of them, grasp at straws to find ways to make peace with what they have to deal with.
If this gives people comfort, that's fair enough. But for me, no. And I don't need it to be true.

That's not to say I'm per say happy with the endings as things stand, but I can see the beauty in what we've got regardless.

Would you care to explain why they make perfect sense to you? I'll take a PM. Thanks.

[xFyre1]

Ottemis wrote...

If there's one thing true it's that people, when they don't want to accept what's right infront of them, grasp at straws to find ways to make peace with what they have to deal with.

Exactly what I was trying to say. Even though I'd like for the theory to be true, it might just be people grasping at whatever offers some hope.


Meanwhile Bioware does not respond, I suggest you listen to and pay close attention to the lyrics of:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROZucF7X-ig

[EnforcerWRX7]

Bioware, we would like an update. A true press release with facts and comments.

Until that time I am not recommending the game to anyone. I have already told several gamer friends to hold off on this purchase until this mess is cleaned up.

Its like we spent 5 years building a boat only to have it burned down right before we put it in the water.

"Well at least you had fun building it" is not an acceptable excuse. The whole point is to see the results of your effort. THAT will be my favorite part of ME3 if you fix this debacle.

Modifié par EnforcerWRX7, 20 mars 2012 - 01:40 .

[WaterWar]

FYI Bioware: Amazon has started taking in full refunds on opened ME3-copies on all platforms. Even the N7-edition. I'll kindly suggest that you release a statement to inform about your plans regarding the ending.

http://www.analoghyp...-mass-effect-3/

[ElMuchu]

Dear Bioware, hereafter the email I sent you yesterday:
Dear Mrs, Mr,

I am sending this email to share with you my point of view regarding your last product: Mass Effect 3. First of all, I am French and I am a pretty new customer of Bioware. I come to you buying Dragon Age Origins, then, the quality of this game leads me to buy Mass Effect. Here again, the quality of the story, the choices provided to the player and the gameplay were so awesome that I pre-order Dragon Age II and Mass Effect 3. I even also buy Baldur’s Gate oldies series… After the deception of Dragon Age 2 (not a bad game but not as good as other previous ones – mainly due to the weaker opposition made to a less charismatic hero I think and to the reuse of areas), and thanks to Mass Effect 2, I still keep faith in your company and maintain my pre-order for Mass Effect 3. Now that I just finish it, I would like to provide you with some kind of feedbacks.

I like this game, really… until the last 15 minutes… It is even greater than Mass Effect 1 and 2 that are my two favorites games since I play video game (I started 15 years ago) Scenario is well built, there are many interactions with other characters. I also very appreciate the fact that secondary quests are very well done and consistent with the main plot (on the contrary of Dragon Age 2 for instance, there is always an interest in searching an item somewhere: in one case it is useful to save a wounded general, in another case, it helps to build a machine gun or items that are necessary for war effort).

I really appreciate the fact of seeing previous characters coming from Mass effect 1 and 2.

There are tons of awesome moments like Mordin’s and Legion sacrifice, Fight between Thane and Kei Leng… There are also funny times like Grunt coming from nowhere covered of blood after a huge fight against Rachni saying he is hungry, discussions with Garrus and the crew inside the Normandy, romance scene with Garrus (bottle shot on presidium roof). There are also great emotional times when we fight Reapers on Tuchanka and Ranoch or when we can end the war between Geth and Quarians.

I could spend hours telling you what I like in this game, anyway there is one point that I dislike and that makes me sad in a crazy way: the endings. Why have you done this to our Shepard? We have built a character that we have followed since the first game, we have spent so many time with him/her, made so many efforts to beat the Reapers… I am not satisfied by these endings. After the trailers you have made, I want to kick the Reapers out of the Galaxy and to have a happy Shepard seen as a hero by the Galaxy people. I also want the possibility to have him/her makes the highest sacrifice and to be acclaimed like a hero too.

Current endings are far too close. From my point of view, ending system of Mass Effect 2 was far away better. You could have made for instance:

- - A happy end, with all Reapers dead, a victoriousliving Shepard acclaimed by the whole Galaxy followed by a wedding. We could see he/her sharing a drink with remaining Normandy’crew, thinking about all the friends they lost. “Biologic life and synthetic life can live together, let see Geth and Quarians and give us a chance”: that could have been a possible answer of Shepard at the end.

- - One or two middle endings based on currently existing ones: fusion with Reapers is an interesting idea.

- - A sad End with all Reapers dead but a preserved Galaxy thanks, for instance, to the crash of the complete Normandy on Hartbinger

If we wand sadness, we can just watch the news on TV, please, give us a possibility for enjoyment and hope.

Once again, except the end, you have done an amazing game with Mass Effect 3. Bioware also has done a damned fantastic job with the whole Mass Effect series. Please, hear your fans and customers and provides to this series the ends that it deserves (RetakeMassEffect3).

Best regards

One of your numerous fan

[desertwoman]

My fav moment was when LI was talking to her father.

[RainbowDazed]

WaterWar wrote...

FYI Bioware: Amazon has started taking in full refunds on opened ME3-copies on all platforms. Even the N7-edition. I'll kindly suggest that you release a statement to inform about your plans regarding the ending.

http://www.analoghyp...-mass-effect-3/

Great news! I made an inquiry to the local consumer protection bureau today after Gamestop refused to give me a refund. I'm not holding my breath, but I added that as extra information to my inquiry!

Modifié par RainbowDazed, 20 mars 2012 - 02:00 .

[VV00d13]

Indoctrination theory make some sense. Why the extra scene at 4000+ emf
We're sheperd gasping for breath, AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PILLAR, when you choose to destroy reapers?
And that he dies (give in to the indoctrination some how) in the other endings.

It makes perfect sense.
Just that he gasps for air at that extra scene some how hint that it never really happend
Cause if so the pillar wouldn't be active either, as it is in that ending.

But what did really happend?
If it wasn't real did we loose? Or did it have some effect?
Cause if it all was a dream the scene were joker we're flying away make sense in a dreamish kinda way, and the crash landing on the planet in the middle of nowere.
Because in realtime the Normandy leading the battle would never flee, not with all the loyalty from the crew members and all.
Indoctrination theory or not the vid shows a lot that point to that what happens on the citadel is a dream or illusion of some sort.

Maybe not another game but som dlc will show this later on, if not for all what I know we can discuss the ending until our fingers are burning ;p

For those who have not watched the theory check it out:

[Miguelitosoyyo]

Just watched the indoctrination theory. If it's true you guys had it in mind since the begining, you are geniuses, bioware. And also greedy trying to get more money from us to see the real ending.

[OriginalTibs]

The whole series was good, and if I could dismiss the current set of endings would say unequivocally it was the finest example of modern interactive storytelling I have enjoyed.

Unfortunately it is as if a nihilist came to control the story in the endings, masterfully wrought as they are, and negated all the teachings that had gone before.

[OhManTFE]

News just in:BoBo the monkey, famous for taking over the supervision of the last ten minutes of Mass Effect 3 and also Bioware's Storywright, has just died of a massive cocaine overdose.Funeral arrangements are being held on the 5th.


LOL I just had to quote that.

[sagefic]

NikolaiShade wrote...

The Stargazer scene, at least for me, is the real ending of ME3, Shepard is really long dead, but there's still one last story to be told.

Personally, I found the stargazer ending to be a giant slap in the face.

I find indoctrination theory is the only thing that makes sense of 5 years worth of carefully crafted writing themes and lore going into a tailspin at the end of the game. Others disagree. Fair enough. I suppose we will find out if that theory is correct if ever DLC comes out to answer it. If not, I will chose destroy and assume Shepard died with her mind intact, at least.

But the Stargazer ending just undermines EVERYTHING.

When this game began, I started by 'reconstructing' my profile. I was invited from the moment the game began to assume that this character was real - that her story was real, the sci-fi world, though different than ours, was 'real' in its own way. This wasn't DA2 where I went in knowing I was being told a story second hand and 'some of the details were lost to time.' No, I was asked to direct this story as though it were unfolding before me.

Yes, there were moments when things went down i didn't have control over (shep dying, shep being forced to work with TIM), but at least they were grounded in the well-established lore of Mass Effect. Then, suddenly, at the end I am told I was really just listening to legends and hear-say? that the story i'd been following for 5 years was nothing but spectulation?

It felt like a cheap out. It felt like a low blow. 

Truly, I would want only 2 things now, re: the endings. First, I would like to see some DLC. This was supposed to be Take Back Earth. I would like to see us take it back, DLC mission by DLC mission. I would love to see Shep and the squaddies fight to the end and I would love to see those elcor with their missle launchers on their backs.

and the stargazer ending? well, frankly, it hurts. i don't know what was meant by that, but for me it sours the entire series. i'm seriously hoping that was just a bookmark, because it cheapens everything if you really meant to make shepard's journey 'just a story lost to time.'