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On the Mass Effect 3 endings. Yes, we are listening.


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#9301
Dunga780

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NikolaiShade wrote...

On the Catalyst, some of his quotes (I don't know if they were posted before).

"I am the Catalyst" - singular
"You want to destry us" - plural

Now maybe I'm wrong but if it is the Catalyst it's implying it is not a Reaper, then the Catalyst uses "us", so it is a Reaper after all. What is the Catalyst?

Then the million dollar question: if Shepard can't comprehend the motivations of the Reapers in ME1, why after a year or so (two years of Lazarus Project can't help in this matter) the Catalyst can fully explain them?

Second question: the Reapers kill the advanced organic races every 50k years, right? Now if their goal was to avert the extinction of the organics then why they don't just kill the synthetics?

Edit: apparently I can't make the image in my signature visible, sorry


Because actions have consequences. If organics were saved from their mistakes of creating AI, then they would just keep doing it because they never faced any consequences. So the reapers allow the organics to face extinction as a consequence but prevent annihilation by harvesting. At least, that's how it seems to me.

#9302
shephard987

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http://www.gamefaqs.....html?poll=4666

LET YOUR VOICES BE HEARD

HOLD THE LINE

#9303
UKillMeLongTime

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shephard987 wrote...

http://www.gamefaqs.....html?poll=4666

LET YOUR VOICES BE HEARD

HOLD THE LINE


I bet half the 'no' ones didn't even play the game, if not more.

#9304
ryoldschool

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Just finished the game last night.

(1) One thing I'd like to note - the choice interface for the final decision was invisible to me. I had no idea what the choice was when I walked into that beam ( it was the only one I noticed ). Only after a PM from a fellow gamer did I hear that there were three beams. Maybe I was missing something, but it was easy to miss. A bit of a sad way to end an RPG series.

(2) I would have preferred an ending where shepard could live to tell stories to his grandkids.

(3) I think that the hero expiring should be left to real-life heroes, as happens all too often. In a video game maybe we don't need that finality.

#9305
jeweledleah

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MysticBinary82 wrote...

Margurka wrote...

Dunga780 wrote...

No matter what happens, I want Shepard to have a happy ending. Sappy, I know. But I believe games should be uplifting and the guy/gal deserves some R&R.


He's getting eternal R&R, I think he's earned it.  Which is true for everyone's beliefs with exception of believing he goes to hell.  In which case you're an ****.


If you beleave in such superstition then it is fine but I don't. I earned the right to have the choise of a good ending.


this. I don't beleive in afterlife.  i beleive in making the best of whatever short time we have in this, only life we have.

also - if we take the endings at face value and do in fact beleive in afterlife - in control ending Shepard becomes the catalyst, spending eternity keeping reapers at bay (or deciding in 50k years that maybe the sycles are not such a bad idea) and in merge ending Shepard's essence is consumed and spread across the rest of the galaxy - to magicaly meld everything into organic/synthetic hybrids (still trying to wrap my head around how that would actualy work scientificaly). so I guess Shepard only goes to heaven if he/she destroys the reapers, by commiting Geth Genocide (and killing EDI) in a process? 

#9306
Omnike

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UKillMeLongTime wrote...

shephard987 wrote...

http://www.gamefaqs.....html?poll=4666

LET YOUR VOICES BE HEARD

HOLD THE LINE


I bet half the 'no' ones didn't even play the game, if not more.


It's also got some strange options. I voted, but I think there should be a Yes or No. I feel like "If they want one, yes" and "If it's best, yes" are a bit much. Either you do or you don't, and if you don't care, don't vote.

#9307
Lord Atherios

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Dunga780 wrote...

NikolaiShade wrote...

On the Catalyst, some of his quotes (I don't know if they were posted before).

"I am the Catalyst" - singular
"You want to destry us" - plural

Now maybe I'm wrong but if it is the Catalyst it's implying it is not a Reaper, then the Catalyst uses "us", so it is a Reaper after all. What is the Catalyst?

Then the million dollar question: if Shepard can't comprehend the motivations of the Reapers in ME1, why after a year or so (two years of Lazarus Project can't help in this matter) the Catalyst can fully explain them?

Second question: the Reapers kill the advanced organic races every 50k years, right? Now if their goal was to avert the extinction of the organics then why they don't just kill the synthetics?

Edit: apparently I can't make the image in my signature visible, sorry


Because actions have consequences. If organics were saved from their mistakes of creating AI, then they would just keep doing it because they never faced any consequences. So the reapers allow the organics to face extinction as a consequence but prevent annihilation by harvesting. At least, that's how it seems to me.


Of couse, so the genocide is the best solution to the galaxy problems :P

- You can destroy the syntetics and warn the organics (C'mon, you have the most powerful fleet and troops of the universe, thats usually enough to send a message)
-You can disable the mass reles (Remember, you made them), isolate the organics who made the inorganics and those inorganics in the same system and let them kill each other. (The rest of the galaxy doesnt have to pay just becasuse some ****s made an IA)
- You can destroy the organics who made the IA's to warn the rest: "Look, we destroyed this entire civilization because they made an IA, if anyone else try to make another one... well, just use your imagination :P"

there are hunderd of possible solutions... but the genocide is the best for sure ¬¬

Modifié par Lord Atherios, 22 mars 2012 - 06:07 .


#9308
EuroDatamancer

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After finishing Mass Effect 3 a couple of hours or so ago, I've been organising my thoughts about what just happened and seeing what everyone else thought. There's gaping holes in the logic in that need addressing and I was expecting more of an 'after-action' epilogue, but i'm still not decided on whether to completely write it off yet or not as completely awful.

But, I have noticed one thing, that there's quite a lot of talk both from fans and game websites about how everyone, particularly the combined fleet in Sol, is cut-off completely from everyone else and they'll all starve and probably start fighting amongst each other. One website railing against the ending did mention that there is non-relay FTL, but it'll take decades to travel anywhere compared to the gate. Even to the nearest star, they somewhat foolishly claimed.

This actually runs contrary to established ME lore. I'm pretty sure it's in the codex, but there's a section talking about Reaper tech superiority and that they can travel 30 light years per day and that's twice as fast as Citadel / Alliance tech FTL. That still gives you a speed of 15LY per day. Admittedly, that's painfully slow compared to hoping around the galaxy with the Relays, but it would still allow for interstellar travel and going by established Reaper lore, they have not burned every planet in the galaxy, so that leaves some options.

So, unless I missed something in the cutscenes and the Sol fleet was completely obliterated before my Shep transhumanised everyone and everything, the destruction of the Relays is not a complete downer ending. It's certainly the end of Galactic-scale government and travel for some time to come and there'd probably be a Traveller-esque 'Long Night' where FTL becomes harder and less common, at least that's how I see the aftermath of that particular event.  Of course, this all hinges as well on the Relay explosions in the end NOT being supernova level ones like the Alpha Relay one.

Modifié par EuroDatamancer, 22 mars 2012 - 06:20 .


#9309
Dunga780

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ryoldschool wrote...

Just finished the game last night.

(1) One thing I'd like to note - the choice interface for the final decision was invisible to me. I had no idea what the choice was when I walked into that beam ( it was the only one I noticed ). Only after a PM from a fellow gamer did I hear that there were three beams. Maybe I was missing something, but it was easy to miss. A bit of a sad way to end an RPG series.

(2) I would have preferred an ending where shepard could live to tell stories to his grandkids.

(3) I think that the hero expiring should be left to real-life heroes, as happens all too often. In a video game maybe we don't need that finality.

Seconded! Amen! And any other synonym for i agree.

#9310
NikolaiShade

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@Dunga780

"Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."
Sovereign - Mass Effect

Basically there is a flaw in their plan or there is some pice missing

Modifié par NikolaiShade, 22 mars 2012 - 06:09 .


#9311
Omnike

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NikolaiShade wrote...

@Dunga780

"Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."
Sovereign - Mass Effect

Basically there is a flow in their plan or there is some pice missing


Which is why the end isn't good.

#9312
Dunga780

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Lord Atherios wrote...

Dunga780 wrote...

NikolaiShade wrote...

On the Catalyst, some of his quotes (I don't know if they were posted before).

"I am the Catalyst" - singular
"You want to destry us" - plural

Now maybe I'm wrong but if it is the Catalyst it's implying it is not a Reaper, then the Catalyst uses "us", so it is a Reaper after all. What is the Catalyst?

Then the million dollar question: if Shepard can't comprehend the motivations of the Reapers in ME1, why after a year or so (two years of Lazarus Project can't help in this matter) the Catalyst can fully explain them?

Second question: the Reapers kill the advanced organic races every 50k years, right? Now if their goal was to avert the extinction of the organics then why they don't just kill the synthetics?

Edit: apparently I can't make the image in my signature visible, sorry


Because actions have consequences. If organics were saved from their mistakes of creating AI, then they would just keep doing it because they never faced any consequences. So the reapers allow the organics to face extinction as a consequence but prevent annihilation by harvesting. At least, that's how it seems to me.


Of couse, so the genocide is the best solution to the galaxy problems :P

- You can destroy thee syntetics and warn the organics (C'mon, you have the most powerful fleet troops of the universe, thats usually enough to send a message)
-You can disable the mass reles (Remember, you made it), isolate the organics who made the inorganics and those inorganics in the same system and let them kill each other. (The rest of the galaxy doesnt have to pay just becasuse some ****s made an IA)
- You can destroy the organics who made the IA's to warn the rest: "Look, we destroyed this entire civilization because the made an IA, if anyone else try to make another one... well, just use your imagination :P"

there are hunderd of possible solutions... but the genocide is the best for sure ¬¬



I agree the logic sucks. But it is still sound. I don't like it, but I can see how some might arrive at the conclusion. i think your third option would have been more effective. ;)

#9313
jeweledleah

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NikolaiShade wrote...

@Dunga780

"Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."
Sovereign - Mass Effect

Basically there is a flaw in their plan or there is some pice missing


see, before Mass Effect 3, I thought the galaxy was reapers farm.  they needed organics to procreate and they needed those organics to have specific exposure to eezo etc in order to be compatible with reaper building technology.  hence, like a good gardner, they would nurture organic civilizations with their choice of fertilzer and when the fruit so to speak was ripe?  harvest them.  ME2 only gave more weight to this theory, with collectors showing up once in a while, getting very specific race/gender/biotic potential  combinations and then dissapearing.  becasue they were conducting experiments to see which race would make the best building block.  the rest would be pruned like weeds, leaving space for new seedlings (pre-flight civilisations) to grow for next Harvest

but then ME3 came out and it turns out reapers are using weird circular logic to... preserve organics?  umm.. ooookay

#9314
dfstone

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In my view, the most important thing Bioware has to keep in mind is that in a story that spans multiple games across multiple years that have always given the player control over how the story ultimately ends...at the final decision of the final battle of the final game in this storyline you take all that control away and force everyone down the same path regardless of all the decisions they've made up to that point. That is why so many people are disappointed. I think they should focus on that.

#9315
CuseGirl

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jeweledleah wrote...

NikolaiShade wrote...

@Dunga780

"Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."
Sovereign - Mass Effect

Basically there is a flaw in their plan or there is some pice missing


see, before Mass Effect 3, I thought the galaxy was reapers farm.  they needed organics to procreate and they needed those organics to have specific exposure to eezo etc in order to be compatible with reaper building technology.  hence, like a good gardner, they would nurture organic civilizations with their choice of fertilzer and when the fruit so to speak was ripe?  harvest them.  ME2 only gave more weight to this theory, with collectors showing up once in a while, getting very specific race/gender/biotic potential  combinations and then dissapearing.  becasue they were conducting experiments to see which race would make the best building block.  the rest would be pruned like weeds, leaving space for new seedlings (pre-flight civilisations) to grow for next Harvest

but then ME3 came out and it turns out reapers are using weird circular logic to... preserve organics?  umm.. ooookay


that's the best analogy I've heard for the "Reapers" (reaping what they sow? j/k? i think not) in a while....but then ME-3 just throws that acceptable fanfic logic out the door....

To the first quote, the piece in bold? The destruction of the mass relays is my #1 issue with the endings. The Mass Relays are the most important technology that the galaxy has access, even more so than Prothean tech/artifacts. "Mass Relay", a device that can ship a frigate, a cruiser, a dreadnought from one end of the galaxy to the other. And as we saw in the video, the Crucible came thru a mass relay and an entire galactic fleet came thru all at once. How can the writers force you to sacrifice the most important technology in the game even after you raise your galactic readiness and EMS well into the 6000 range? Don't tell me "players can get the perfect ending, even without MP, but they really have to work at it" and that perfect ending includes Shepard's death and the destruction of the mass relays? Then the Reapers have really won, haven't they?

#9316
AzuredragonX

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First off I want to say that the Mass Effect series (especially ME3) has been my favourite and the best story driving game(s) I've ever had the joy of playing and I'd like to thank the team for that.

So after all those hours I've put into the game I'm so disappointed by the ending of ME3. Everything before the ending was so absorbing and tear-jerkingly amazing. We got involved with the characters in the past games and all that goes on in ME3....just wow. But when I got to the ending (already expecting to be disappionted) it completely threw me out of the mood and tone set by the events preceding the final choice. This was due to immense confusion and all the questions that followed suit, and boy...were there a lot of questions. There are too many loose ends and cut corners in the cinematics (after choice and after credits) and I hope there will be some answers sometime soon.

To be clear I choose control, and I'm trying not to get into to many details because I don't like giving out spoilers. I'm playing my other ME2 character now because like I said, everything before the ending was amazing although I'll be taking it slow on this playthrough.

Either way. Thank you for such a sick series Bioware. Hope these ending problems get resolved soon :P.

#9317
Batty5

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dfstone wrote...

In my view, the most important thing Bioware has to keep in mind is that in a story that spans multiple games across multiple years that have always given the player control over how the story ultimately ends...at the final decision of the final battle of the final game in this storyline you take all that control away and force everyone down the same path regardless of all the decisions they've made up to that point. That is why so many people are disappointed. I think they should focus on that.


Agreed.

#9318
Feirefiz1972

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Ok, my choise was the synergy ending in witch joker and edi stood hand in hand as a half synthetic half organic couple on a changed earth. The cycle of exstinction was broken. I actualy liked this conlussion. The giant plotholes in the narrative is what leaves me feeling unsatisfied. Until a certain point i was able to bear with the story, we were building a prothean superweapon to aid us in our fight to save all sapient life in the galaxy from being destroyed by the reapers. But after the reaper fight in Londen i somehow lost the plot. I just do not understand why shepard walked into the beam of light wich beamed him up to the citadel. I do not understand what the cataclyst is. At some point its stated the cataclist is the citadel itself. Its manifest itself as a ghostly litle boy. Is it a sort of ai? In me1 the reaper states they created the citadel so organic life in the univers would develope along certain paths they desired. But the little boy states the reapers are his 'solution' to the chaos created by organic life. What is this litle boy? Is he created by the reapers or are the reapers his solution (creation), is he an ai or something? Because he seems like some godlike creature? The litle boy states that its inevitable that organic life is going to be destroyed by synthetics. This does not seem inevitable at all to me, but hey, for the sake off storytelling i am going to follow you guys on that one. But his solution is to destroy all sapient life by synthetic lifeforms. This whole idea of ascention is not explaned enough. At the end of the game you made hugh jumpes in the narrative, that leaves lots of things unexplained, most of all the nature of the cataclist itself. Do'nt get my wrong, i really enjoyed the game, but after rallying all the different races, the ending seems unexplained and tagged on.

edit: an other thing that i would have liked to have seen explained is the illusive man being a synthetic, is this the way indoctrination works? Does indoctrination turn you in some sort of synthetic or has he been some sort of synthetic all along, hence the eyes.

Modifié par Feirefiz1972, 22 mars 2012 - 07:07 .


#9319
Cobra's_back

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I loved most of the story.
• I loved Mordin singing before he dies
• Grunt telling you he is hungry after his big fight scene
• Thane’s battle with Kai Leng
The last 10 minutes needs more details. It may be a miss understanding. I personally went with the indoctrination theory. It works for me. The confusion and misunderstanding may come from the fact that the player is an active participant and an observer of a great story. The game designer may think the active participate should decide “what happened”. An observer needs confirmation. I suspect some of the biggest critics are the greatest fans of the story.
In the beginning, I thought I was watching an excellent movie with the perfect music in the background. I was really into the action and the story. The active participant made a choice to see this as indoctrination. The observer in me wanted validation. Bio Ware may have wanted everyone to decide for themselves. The problem stems from the fact that the writers, actors and all other artists included had me glued to their story.
I can’t see M. Night Shyamalon end this story like this. The difference is that he is telling the story to the observers from start to finish with conclusion. In “Six Sense”, Bruce Willis gets it in the end. The observer gets confirmation by watching Bruce’s flashbacks in the end. Sure I figured it out before the end of the movie, but validation was needed. The game designers work is so good it looks like a movie.
Normally having the player decide how it ended is great. However, those caught in the magic of the story as an observer needed the writer to tell it to them. The characters became important because the writers made you care about them. Not knowing what happened to them destroyed the magic. Remember how Jackson got the observer ready for Frodo’s death “Sam I saved Middle Earth but not for me”. The death of an epic tragic hero is very powerful. As a player seeing Shepard lying in rubble may just mean “The End”. To the observer it is an insult. The observer expects someone to care for the fallen hero. This is not a good place to end it. The fallen hero has to be found. The observer needs to see countless mourners. This allows the observer time to accept the tragic hero’s death.

#9320
Joe vas Normandy

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 I just want my male
Shepard to keep his promise to Miranda (to go find her) and I don't mean as a
disembodied spirit haunting ships throughout the galaxy. I think after three
brilliantly crafted episodes in a series of games that will no doubt become the
new standard in what people are calling a fully interactive story, full of
memorable characters and experiences, the ending of said saga should reflect
that sense of choice and consequence that the series is known for, that being
said I don't mean that every ending should be a "Star Wars ending" in
which the bad guys lose and all the good guys celebrate by having Volus play
catchy tunes on the shells of the destroyed Reapers. However I think
"my" Shepard deserves some small degree of happiness, I mean let's
face it the guy's had it rough. Raised as an orphan on the streets of the great
megatropolises covering Earth, being the sole survivor while his unit was
slaughtered by a thresher maw attack on Akuze, and more recently being spaced
and at the time killed by the Collectors to later be brought back by the same
organization that caused the thresher maw attack on Akuze, the list goes on and
on, my point being the guy deserves a break. I think, in my humble opinion that
"my" Shepard  has already done
more for the galaxy than any one individual should be expected to, without
having to bite the big one, and "the powers that be " should take
that into account when determining his ultimate fate.

I'm not used to
writing in forums, but was inspired to do so by the urgings of Jessica Merizan
,and my peers in this forum who like me love and care for  the characters that you,  Bioware have created. I hope this feedback is
of some use in determining how to best address the issues that my fellow fans
and myself have brought to bear concerning the ending of one of the best, if not
THE BEST GAME I have ever played.

Modifié par Joe vas Normandy, 22 mars 2012 - 06:51 .


#9321
Gorwyn87

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Ardoreal wrote...

I feel like this needs revived.  This was so eloquently put and I still feel very much the same.  Bioware, please read this as if it were my own, even if you've read it again.  Or, if you've categorized these quotes for people make sure you don't forget the points here.  The lack of catharsis, the way we feel cast aside. 

Bwflex wrote...
I really have been trying to let myself get over this nightmare, but since you guys promise you're listening here, I'll try to just say it all, get it all out.

I have invested more of myself into this series than almost any other video game franchise in my life. I loved this game. I believed in it. For five years, it delivered. I must have played ME1 and ME2 a dozen times each.

I remember the end of Mass Effect 2. Never before, in any video game I had ever played, did I feel like my actions really mattered. Knowing that the decisions I made and the hard work I put into ME2 had a very real, clear, obvious impact on who lived and who died was one of the most astounding feelings in the world to me. I remember when that laser hit the Normandy and Joker made a comment about how he was happy we upgraded the shields. That was amazing. Cause and effect. Work and reward.

The first time I went through, I lost Mordin, and it was gut-wrenching: watching him die because I made a bad decision was damning, heartbreaking. But it wasn't hopeless, because I knew I could go back, do better, and save him. I knew that I was in control, that my actions mattered. So that's exactly what I did. I reviewed my decisions, found my mistakes, and did everything right. I put together a plan, I worked hard to follow that plan, and I got the reward I had worked so hard for. And then, it was all for nothing.

When I started playing Mass Effect 3, I was blown away. It was perfect. Everything was perfect. It was incredible to see all of my decisions playing out in front of me, building up to new and outrageous outcomes. I was so sure that this was it, this was going to be the masterpiece that crowned an already near-perfect trilogy. With every war asset I gathered, and with every multiplayer game I won, I knew that my work would pay off, that I would be truly satisfied with the outcome of my hard work and smart decisions. Every time I acquired a new WA bonus, I couldn't wait to see how it would play out in the final battle. And then, it was all for nothing.

I wasn't expecting a perfect, happy ending with rainbows and butterflies. In fact, I think I may have been insulted if everyone made it through just fine. The Reapers are an enormous threat (although obviously not as invincible as they would like us to believe), and we should be right to anticipate heavy losses. But I never lost hope. I built alliances, I made the impossible happen to rally the galaxy together. I cured the genophage. I saved the Turians. I united the geth and the quarians. And then, it was all for nothing.

When Mordin died, it was heartwrenching, but I knew it was the right thing. His sacrifice was... perfect. It made sense. It was congruent with the dramatic themes that had been present since I very first met Wrex in ME1. It was not a cheap trick, a deus ex machina, an easy out. It was beautiful, meaningful, significant, relevant, and satisfying. It was an amazing way for an amazing character to sacrifice themself for an amazing thing. And then it was all for nothing.

When Thane died, it was tearjerking. I knew from the moment he explained his illness that one day, I'd have to deal with his death. I knew he was never going to survive the trilogy, and I knew it wouldn't be fun to watch him go. But when his son started reading the prayer, I lost it. His death was beautiful. It was significant. It was relevant. It was satisfying. It was meaningful. He died to protect Shepard, to protect the entire Citadel. He took a life he thought was unredeemable and used it to make the world a brighter place. And then it was all for nothing.

When Wrex and Eve thanked me for saving their species, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Tali set foot on her homeworld, I felt that I had truly accomplished something great. When Javik gave his inspiring speech, I felt that I had inspired something truly great. When I activated the Citadel's arms, sat down to reminisce with Anderson one final time, I felt that I had truly accomplished something amazing. I felt that my sacrifice was meaningful. Significant. Relevant. And while still a completely unexplained deus ex machina, at least it was a little bit satisfying.

And then, just like everything else in this trilogy, it was all for nothing.

If we pretend like the indoctrination theory is false, and we're really supposed to take the ending at face value, this entire game is a lost cause. The krogans will never repopulate. The quarians will never rebuild their home world. The geth will never know what it means to be alive and independent. The salarians will never see how people can change for the better.

Instead, the quarians and turians will endure a quick, torturous extinction as they slowly starve to death, trapped in a system with no support for them. Everyone else will squabble over the scraps of Earth that haven't been completely obliterated, until the krogans drive them all to extinction and then die off without any women present. And this is all assuming that the relays didn't cause supernova-scaled extinction events simply by being destroyed, like we saw in Arrival.

And perhaps the worst part is that we don't even know. We don't know what happened to our squadmates. We didn't get any sort of catharsis, conclusion. We got five years of literary foreplay followed by a kick to the groin and a note telling us that in a couple months, we can pay Bioware $15 for them to do it to us all over again.

It's not just the abysmally depressing/sacrificial nature of the ending, either. As I've already made perfectly clear, I came into this game expecting sacrifice. When Mordin did it, it was beautiful. When Thane did it, it was beautiful. Even Verner. Stupid, misguided, idiotic Verner. Even his ridiculous sacrifice had meaning, relevance, coherence, and offered satisfaction.

No, it's not the sacrifice I have a problem with. It's the utter lack of coherence and respect for the five years of literary gold that have already been established in this franchise. We spent three games preparing to fight these reapers. I spent hours upon hours doing every side quest, picking up every war asset, maxing out my galactic readiness so that when the time came, the army I had built could make a stand, and show these Reapers that we won't go down without a fight.

In ME1, we did the impossible when we killed Sovereign. In ME2, we began to see that the Reapers aren't as immortal as they claim to be: that even they have basic needs, exploitable weaknesses. In ME3, we saw the Reapers die. We saw one get taken down by an overgrown worm. We saw one die with a few coordinated orbital bombardments. We saw several ripped apart by standard space combat. In ME1, it took three alliance fleets to kill the "invincible" Sovereign. By the end of ME3, I had assembled a galactic armada fifty times more powerful than that, and a thousand times more prepared. I never expected the fight to be easy, but I proved that we wouldn't go down without a fight, that there is always hope in unity. That's the theme we've been given for the past five years: there is hope and strength through unity. That if we work together, we can achieve the impossible.

And then we're supposed to believe that the fate of the galaxy comes down to some completely unexplained starchild asking Shepard what his favorite color is? That the army we built was all for nothing? That the squad whose loyalty we fought so hard for was all for nothing? That in the end, none of it mattered at all?

It's a poetic notion, but this isn't the place for poetry. It's one thing to rattle prose nihilistic over the course of a movie or ballad, where the audience is a passive observer, learning a lesson from the suffering and futility of a character, but that's not what Mass Effect is. Mass Effect has always been about making the player the true hero. If you really want us to all feel like we spent the past five years dumping time, energy, and emotional investment into this game just to tell us that nothing really matters, you have signed your own death certificate. Nobody pays hundreds of dollars and hours to be reminded how bleak, empty, and depressing the world can be, to be told that nothing we do matters, to be told that all of our greatest accomplishments, all of our faith, all of our work, all of our unity is for nothing.

No. It simply cannot be this bleak. I refuse to believe Bioware is really doing this. The ending of ME1 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won. The ending of ME2 was perfect. We saw the struggle, we saw the cost, but we knew that we had worked hard, worked together, and won.

Taken at face value, the end of ME3 throws every single thing we've done in the past five years into the wind, and makes the player watch from a distance as the entire galaxy is thrown into a technological dark age and a stellar extinction. Why would we care about a universe that no longer exists? We should we invest any more time or money into a world that will never be what we came to know and love?

Even if the ending is retconned, it doesn't make things better. Just knowing that the starchild was our real foe the entire time is so utterly mindless, contrived, and irrelevant to what we experienced in ME1 and ME2 that it cannot be forgiven. If that really is the truth, then Mass Effect simply isn't what we thought it was. And frankly, if this is what Mass Effect was supposed to be all along, I want no part of it. It's a useless, trite, overplayed cliche, so far beneath the praise I once gave this franchise that it hurts to think about.

No. There is no way to save this franchise without giving us the only explanation that makes sense. You know what it is. It was the plan all along. Too much evidence to not be true. Too many people reaching the same conclusions independently.

The indoctrination theory doesn't just save this franchise: it elevates it to one of the most powerful and compelling storytelling experiences I've ever had in my life. The fact that you managed to do more than indoctrinate Shepard - you managed to indoctrinate the players themselves - is astonishing. If that really was the end game, here, then you have won my gaming soul. But if that's true, then I'm still waiting for the rest of this story, the final chapter of Shepard's heroic journey. I paid to finish the fight, and if the indoctrination theory is true, it's not over yet.

And if it's not, then I just don't even care. I have been betrayed, and it's time for me to let go of the denial, the anger, the bargaining, and start working through the depression and emptiness until I can just move on. You can't keep teasing us like this. This must have seemed like a great plan at the time, but it has cost too much. These people believed in you. I believed in you.

Just make it right.


This is exactly what I was feeling during my journey. Very very well written. Nothing else to say.

#9322
Vakarian89

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 u know i was starting to just give up and accept that the ending is what it is, in my head i thought about the conversations with all your current and former squadmates and decided that i guess u DO kinda get someclosure to all the characters and events such as the genophage and geth/quarrian war throughout the course of the game....BUT  that last scene of shepard after the Destroy option just keeps bugging me!! ive read about the indoctrination thing here in the forums and i cant help but feel that the dudes at Bioware and EA are really just laughing thier butts off at all of us!!! :blink: ESPECIALLY after watching this!!  

 

until this mysterious DLC comes out im gonna hold on the hope that either 1) Bioware devs are Evil Geniuses pulling the biggest prank in history or 2) that they realize they unknowingly saved thier own butts and will come out say "hahah they of course thats what we meant!! DUH!!!"

#9323
NikolaiShade

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@ghostbusters101

Sorry mate, I don't think given theese endings someone should care about Shepard. Destroying the relays and stranding the fleet in Sol system he became the bad guy, not a hero.


@Vakarian89

We'll find out at PAX, one way or the other

Modifié par NikolaiShade, 22 mars 2012 - 06:57 .


#9324
Orumon

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CuseGirl wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

NikolaiShade wrote...

@Dunga780

"Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."
Sovereign - Mass Effect

Basically there is a flaw in their plan or there is some pice missing


see, before Mass Effect 3, I thought the galaxy was reapers farm.  they needed organics to procreate and they needed those organics to have specific exposure to eezo etc in order to be compatible with reaper building technology.  hence, like a good gardner, they would nurture organic civilizations with their choice of fertilzer and when the fruit so to speak was ripe?  harvest them.  ME2 only gave more weight to this theory, with collectors showing up once in a while, getting very specific race/gender/biotic potential  combinations and then dissapearing.  becasue they were conducting experiments to see which race would make the best building block.  the rest would be pruned like weeds, leaving space for new seedlings (pre-flight civilisations) to grow for next Harvest

but then ME3 came out and it turns out reapers are using weird circular logic to... preserve organics?  umm.. ooookay


that's the best analogy I've heard for the "Reapers" (reaping what they sow? j/k? i think not) in a while....but then ME-3 just throws that acceptable fanfic logic out the door....

To the first quote, the piece in bold? The destruction of the mass relays is my #1 issue with the endings. The Mass Relays are the most important technology that the galaxy has access, even more so than Prothean tech/artifacts. "Mass Relay", a device that can ship a frigate, a cruiser, a dreadnought from one end of the galaxy to the other. And as we saw in the video, the Crucible came thru a mass relay and an entire galactic fleet came thru all at once. How can the writers force you to sacrifice the most important technology in the game even after you raise your galactic readiness and EMS well into the 6000 range? Don't tell me "players can get the perfect ending, even without MP, but they really have to work at it" and that perfect ending includes Shepard's death and the destruction of the mass relays? Then the Reapers have really won, haven't they?


Which is, of course, the entire objection to the current ending. Secondly, I never liked the idea of the crucible to begin with. Unifying the galaxy always seemed to feel more right (kids show cliche as it is) to me, as it's also been stated often that the reapers never faced a unified galaxy before.

#9325
Silvair

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RevanREK wrote...

Silvair wrote...

RevanREK wrote...

Silvair wrote...

Honestly, I would have been okay with the ending (I only did the 3rd ending, Synthesis...then I got hit with the freezeup on start screen thing)....IF I hadn't spent the last 3 games warming up to and romancing Tali.

It was just such a massive letdown romancing her, then going through the whole Rannoch ordeal with her, only for her to just disappear right at the end, and Shepard to die, leaving her alone (if she even survived).

If Shepard wasn't seeing anyone then sure, sacrifice for the greater good. But having a Romance should have given another option for Shepard to live, because now he has someone he needs to go back to after the mission!


Completely agree, I spent the other 2 games romancing Garrus, hell, when I first played through the mission on Omega when you meet him again the first thing I did was restart the mission, just because I was so happy!! I played it through 5 or 6 times before continuing, because It was awesome! And then I found out he was romancable and it was amazing. and all throughout ME3 the romance became intense, it wasn't just, 'lets do it with a turian' anymore, it progressed, it was, 'dare I say it' beautiful, love, the last conversation with him was the saddest thing I would've ever imagined.

But I thought that it gave Shepard a future, something to live for, it gave me hope for the ending, it gave them a reason to try harder then normal... love can make you do crazy things, even survive reapers? I thought.

And then she dies, or they're seperated forever... It was horrible, and the wort part is, I know Garrus wouldnt have missed that fight for the world, he would'nt just abandoned the fight and fly off in the Normady while Shepard got all the fun... Cumon, Garrus retreating from the FINAL fight?? It was just, so out of character! :?


Yeah, Tali and Garrus were the ONLY squad I used (except where they weren't available, like Tali not being in the first havles of 2 and 3) for all three games.  Having them just DISSAPPEAR on me during the grand finale just hurt.

I honestly WAS expecting Shepard to die, but I was expecting my squad to be there with me, with Tali crying as Shepard sacrifices himself (Yeah, I Really got into the story and characters).  But they were just...gone.  Again, I'd assumed they died in the Harbinger attack until I saw her walk out of the Normandy.

And seeing her to be the only person to exit the normandy besides Joker and EDI just made me feel so bad.  She just got her planet back, back with her love, only to get stranded on some jungle planet, fused into being half machine (That must be like a living nightmare for a Quarian...), and Shepard dead and gone.


Yeah!! I was the same, Tail and Garrus where the only Squad members I used, and I got way into the story and the characters, I created my own scenarios and scenes in my head, even wrote a crappy fanfic, and my normal paintings where replaced by garrus everywhere, I know some people hate fanfiction and fanart, I don't care, it just inspired me so much because it was such a great series… (until the ending.)
But that's what made the end so hard to swallow, and I feel stupid for letting a game effect me like that, I feel stupid for letting it get under my skin like that, I feel stupid for obsessing over it... the ending makes me feel like I've failed Shepard, and not only that, that my imagined scene of my Shepard, who was an orphan herself, retiring and adopting a child... it can't happen. It was like a punch in the face really. It made me feel bad, not so much with Bioware, I respect their artistic freedom, I feel bad with myself for letting it effect me in this way. I probably shouldn’t have taken the game into my heart so much but surely that's what fans do?? It means I LOVED it so much... Isn’t that what game designers want to hear? That people loved it so much that they felt like they were really there? And the ending felt like the loss of a real loved one.. It was a horrible ending, it just left me feeling sick and deflated.I play games for that warm fuzzy feeling I get when I finish… not to make me feel depressed…


Pretty much the exact same thing here.  I'd been obsessing over Mass Effect, it was my "star wars".  Loved it, the characters, the mythology, the backstories, etc.  Really enjoyed romancing Tali, and I was all excited for the epic grand finale to the trilogy and saving the universe and then getting to go home with Tali (and barhopping with Garrus), only to get punished for getting that much into the story.

IT literally felt like Bioware gave an ending that said "How DARE you fall in love with this series?!"  I know that's harsh, but that's seriously what it felt like.

Like you, it just left me feeling depressed and stupid for having enjoyed the series so much.  When the ending happened, I wasn't angry, or outraged.  Just dumbfounded and depressed.  All that time (and emotion) invested into the series was for nothing at the very end of it all.

So yeah, I just felt stupid for looking forward to it, expecting closure to my favorite sci-fi trilogy, and actually selling games for the first time since the original playstation in order to get the collector's edition.