23455 réponses à ce sujet

[EnforcerWRX7]

We want a real conclusion.

We want an end to the hero's journey. Nothing less Bioware. We are still here.

[Legion91]

i have a quick question here which i am confused about and it has to do with the indocrination theory.

If indeed that was the case then when you choose the destroy the reapers option like i did ( simply because i had invested so much time into the game and thought im not about to let them go without blowing their asses to hell )and you see the short scene at the end with shepards tags ad the hint he is still alive i have heard people say that he has woke from his dellusion then and the reapers are still around so they could possibley make dlc??

What i dont get is if thats true and you are not in your dellusion the citadel is clearly blown up so why would the reapers not be destroyed, i mean once the catalyst is destoyed surely they are gone, alos you see scenes off the reapers on earth dying.

Also what is that pile of rubble he is under?, unless i am mistaking the crucible was in space so therefore he would be floating in space if he was intact and not under rubble?
which leaves me with this question, was the whole ending indeed a dream and him stopping himself from becoming indocrinated and has nothing to do with destroying the reapers, it was just a personal mind battle and the real war is still going on??  and possible DLC has already been set up to give us a proper ending?

maybe im just not following the story right here but thats what im getting, any help would be much appreciated here

Modifié par Legion91, 26 mars 2012 - 12:31 .

[bossmonkeykj]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

bossmonkeykj wrote...

art done well is always a good business decision.  a large franchise is exactly the best speakerphone to do something artistic and groundbreaking.  It all depends on how confident you are in the message you're giving.  Taking risks on the business end for the sake of artistic integrity is something that should be admired, not admonished.

I'm not going to necessarily agree with you. The problem with doing this with a mass marketed product is that you as the publisher have to be willing to face the music, and sometimes, as you've seen, the music isn't always pretty. If something flops one might need to revise it. Something is "so groundbreaking it has to be explained" perhaps it didn't work in the first place -- especially in something like a video game.

A role playing video game is a mass marketed interactive graphic art form with narrative. Now being interactive means that there is another party involved, which is the player. The player has ownership of the actions of the protagonist, and the effects of those actions affect the way the rest of the environment (characters, etc.) react to the protagonist -- I'm oversimplifying, but you get my point.

In a one shot game it's a one shot agreement between the writers and the player. In a trilogy it's a agreement that spread over three parts, and the player has expectations spread over three parts. In the third part of ME3, the player was given a set of expectations by 1) previous experience with the first two installments; 2) presales hype and assurances on how the series was going to end. While the game play and story delivered, the ending did not for too many people, myself included. Thus Bioware is facing the music.

The ending was poor storytelling, IMO. It introduced completely new material without any explanation, and just seized control of Shepard from the player, and changed Shepard from a problem solving ass kicker into a putz who had completely given up hope, and was saying to herself what I the player was thinking "f*** it." And that is called "art." I am having difficulty wrapping my 140+ IQ around this. On that is what Bioware is staking their reputation.

In a story like this you're wanting to give multiple endings yet bring things back together at the same time. The writing in Dragon Age: Origins did this very well. The writing in Mass Effect 3 for the ending missed the boat. Quite simply, it needs significant revision.

I agree, taking that risk isn't going to be good every time, especially if it's poorly executed.  But I still see it as admirable, and if art would win over money more often, our culture would be richer for it.  But if you've seen my other posts, I'm a believer in the indoctrination theory, and I am expecting a free DLC with the real endings any day now

[clanqui]

I liked the ending. I chose synthesis, which was truer to my paragon shepherds values, but they all worked. I also liked the way that ending gave you a sort of joker and EDI as adam and eve. Honestly, I don't understand how anyone could have gone into the game without understanding that this was a tragedy. I guess we've really lost our taste for them.

Modifié par clanqui, 26 mars 2012 - 12:24 .

[bossmonkeykj]

Legion91 wrote...

i have a quick question here which i am confused about and it has to do with the indocrination theory.

If indeed that was the case then when you choose the destroy the reapers option like i did ( simply because i had invested so much time into the game and thought im not about to let them go without blowing their asses to hell )and you see the short scene at the end with shepards tags ad the hint he is still alivei have heard people say that he has woke from his dellusionthen andthe reapers are still around so they could possibley make dlc??

What i dont get is if thats true and you are out of your dellusionthe citadel is clearly blown up so why would the reapers not be destroyed, i mean once the catalyst is destoyed surely they are gone, alos you see scenes off the reapers on earth dying.

Also what is that pile of rubble he is under?, unless i am mistaking the crucible was in spaceso therefore he would be floating in space if he was intact and not under rubble?
which leaves me with this question, was the whole ending indeed a dream and him stopping himself from becoming docrinated and has nothing to dowith destroying the reapers, it was just apersonal mind battle and the real war is still going on??

maybe im just not following the story right here but thats what im getting, any help would be much appreciated here

according to the version of the indoctrination theory I saw, shepard was never on the citadel.  everything after the blast happened in his head, and he's still in a pile of rubble in london

[Kryptoniangamer]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

bossmonkeykj wrote...

art done well is always a good business decision.  a large franchise is exactly the best speakerphone to do something artistic and groundbreaking.  It all depends on how confident you are in the message you're giving.  Taking risks on the business end for the sake of artistic integrity is something that should be admired, not admonished.

I'm not going to necessarily agree with you. The problem with doing this with a mass marketed product is that you as the publisher have to be willing to face the music, and sometimes, as you've seen, the music isn't always pretty. If something flops one might need to revise it. Something is "so groundbreaking it has to be explained" perhaps it didn't work in the first place -- especially in something like a video game.

A role playing video game is a mass marketed interactive graphic art form with narrative. Now being interactive means that there is another party involved, which is the player. The player has ownership of the actions of the protagonist, and the effects of those actions affect the way the rest of the environment (characters, etc.) react to the protagonist -- I'm oversimplifying, but you get my point.

In a one shot game it's a one shot agreement between the writers and the player. In a trilogy it's a agreement that spread over three parts, and the player has expectations spread over three parts. In the third part of ME3, the player was given a set of expectations by 1) previous experience with the first two installments; 2) presales hype and assurances on how the series was going to end. While the game play and story delivered, the ending did not for too many people, myself included. Thus Bioware is facing the music.

The ending was poor storytelling, IMO. It introduced completely new material without any explanation, and just seized control of Shepard from the player, and changed Shepard from a problem solving ass kicker into a putz who had completely given up hope, and was saying to herself what I the player was thinking "f*** it." And that is called "art." I am having difficulty wrapping my 140+ IQ around this. On that is what Bioware is staking their reputation.

In a story like this you're wanting to give multiple endings yet bring things back together at the same time. The writing in Dragon Age: Origins did this very well. The writing in Mass Effect 3 for the ending missed the boat. Quite simply, it needs significant revision.

Excellent points! Agree totally.

[MikeC99]

RenaldGath wrote...

I am not a born english speaker so please forgive my mistakes.

I've just finished Mass Effect 3 yesterday evening (well... early this morning), and like almost everybody on this topic, I was very disapointed by the last ten minutes.
If it was just a random game made by a random studio, it would not have such an importance for me, and since I'm not used to post messages on boards, especially in english, I wouldn't have taken the time to post this.

But ME3 is not a random game and Bioware not a random studio, and in my own little distress I searched the best way to give my opinion on this ending to the studio...
 ......
But the end  .
I think I know what you want us to feel with it. But it just didn't work. Couldn't work.
 .....

This is a very long text, sorry. I had to wrote down my feelings, first step of the therapy, but I guess no one is going to read it so .

OK. Don't worry about the bad english (any way, not really THAT bad!). Got your point across, and here's at least one person who read it! :innocent:

Agree with everything you said, including about the music. I also though 'Meh!' when I got it as download with the CE version. Then started listening to it. Simple, powerful.

And about BG, SoA then that whole NWN thing ... yes, been there, done that. Still sneak back sometimes ...  So yes, I have a degree of respect and admiration for the way that Bioware (and nice acknowledgment to Black Isle, BTW) tend to do things.

In earlier post I also referenced how the ending to the whole BG saga was done, post ToB. The little synopses at the end wasn't a new way to wrap up stories of all characters, and it's been done lots - but IMHO this is still one of the best.

But while I think this would help, it wouldn't fix the real issues, as highlighted in your post, and many, many others. And I agree - I really hope Bioware don't go for some 'please everyone' ending. Just make it REAL for pity's sake!

At the moment, giving how ME3 ends, considering approaching dlc for this game makes me feel like Tali and the prospect of going back into the vents: "but last time I was set on fire!"

Good post - many thanks

cheers

MikeC

[Omnike]

clanqui wrote...

I liked the ending. I chose synthesis, which was truer to my paragon shepherds values, but they all worked. I also liked the way that ending gave you a sort of joker and EDI as adam and eve. Honestly, I don't understand how anyone could have gone into the game without understanding that this was a tragedy. I guess we've really lost our taste for them.

What... I... no. We went in thinking this was the opposite of a tragedy. It was a story about hope. Hell, even the end of ME1 was corny enough to have Shepard come out victorious standing on a piece of Soverign with triumphant music playing in the background. And, let's assume it was a tragedy from start to finish. It still dosn't explain the plot holes that I have not seen ANYONE defend without the Indoc theory.

[Cross429]

Well I'm sorry you didn't get the ending you wanted, because I got mine all right. I guess that means that bioware are catering my tastes  - all the more reason to be optimistic.

Although, it is really no surprise that you missed all the fun I had -  your ability to feel frustrated because of my typos might have something to do with your inability to notice the important parts and dissmiss the nit-picks - wich is actually essential to enjoy any kind of fantasy.

I feel bad right now because you have asari avatar and I like asari so much

I'm glad you liked the ending. I know it worked for some, and I'm pleased to see that it had impact for you.

That said, you're attacking a straw man. We're not neccessarily inexperienced in SciFi (I'm certainly not), and I certainly didn't want a happy ending (although some, of course, did). You're condescending to those who disagree with you but not addressing any of the substance of their arguments.

Unless Bioware intended for Shepard to be Indoctrinated (which is quite cool and a pinnacle example of scifi writing), these endings were terrible. The Shepard you owned was not the Shepard you ended with. All the decisions you made amounted to nothing: just a numerical score, which itself (above a certain and low level) had minimal impact. We didn't play this series just to watch the same sentimental clip, irregardless of how we played.

When the devs said "Sixteen wildly different endings" and "We are now free to wrap up all the decisions you made without thought for a sequel," did you think they were joking? Because you're the only one laughing.

As I said above: you're telling me that, of all they could have done with their massive budget, a static and cursory clip largely irresponsive to player decisions throughout all three games is how you would have chosen to end things?

They could have done so much. So much. Brought gaming to a new level: which I believe they did throughout the remaining 99% of the game.

The fact that you can't see this - or refuse to - is an indictment of you, and not your opposition.

Modifié par Cross429, 26 mars 2012 - 12:29 .

[bryceax]

varnol wrote...

bryceax wrote...

I wanted Shepard to die.  I wanted him to sacrifice himself to prevent the cycle. BUT more importantly, I wanted a coherent end to the trilogy.

And it's SHEPARD.  SHEP-ARD.

Well I'm sorry you didn't get the ending you wanted, because I got mine all right. I guess that means that bioware are catering my tastes  - all the more reason to be optimistic.

Although, it is really no surprise that you missed all the fun I had -  your ability to feel frustrated because of my typos might have something to do with your inability to notice the important parts and dissmiss the nit-picks - wich is actually essential to enjoy any kind of fantasy.

I feel bad right now because you have asari avatar and I like asari so much

I changed my picture to a slimy bartarian so you can hate me to your delusioned heart's content.

So BioWare catered to your tastes of cowardly space pilots, primary colors, god children, plot-holes and the removal of choice?  And how can you possibly see the conclusion of a trilogy an non important?? A nit pick of ME3 would be me wanting another hub world or squadmate, or more screen time for the war assets I assembled. I CAN dissmiss that. What can't be desmissed by the vast majority of players is how the ending was handled.  I'm not surprised you enjoyed it if you don't understand how important to storytelling a conclusion actually is.

[jeweledleah]

Omnike wrote...

clanqui wrote...

I liked the ending. I chose synthesis, which was truer to my paragon shepherds values, but they all worked. I also liked the way that ending gave you a sort of joker and EDI as adam and eve. Honestly, I don't understand how anyone could have gone into the game without understanding that this was a tragedy. I guess we've really lost our taste for them.

What... I... no. We went in thinking this was the opposite of a tragedy. It was a story about hope. Hell, even the end of ME1 was corny enough to have Shepard come out victorious standing on a piece of Soverign with triumphant music playing in the background. And, let's assume it was a tragedy from start to finish. It still dosn't explain the plot holes that I have not seen ANYONE defend without the Indoc theory.

 I'm still trying to think how can one see Mass Effect as tragedy.  I guess being the first cycle in... i have no idea how long, I'm not sure even reapers remember, anyways first cycle to actualy have a fighting chance, to managed repeated setbacks to reapers, managing to broker alliances between bitter enemies, managing to save lives against all odds.. is a tragedy?

mass effect certainly was an action drama.  but it was NOT a tragedy.

red dead redemption is a tragedy.  LA noir is a tragedy.  Hamlet is a tragedy.  Alice, madness returs ,I would say is a tragedy.

even bioshock had a more uplifting ending then Mass Effect, and bioshock is much MUCH darker in tone then Mass Effect could ever hope to be

Modifié par jeweledleah, 26 mars 2012 - 12:37 .

[bossmonkeykj]

bossmonkeykj wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

bossmonkeykj wrote...

Omnike wrote...

bossmonkeykj wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

@ Varnol and boosmonkey. I don't understand how your minds work. I cannot relate. at all. I do not see it your way, I do not see the point of making an idol out of man and i do not understand why a hero cannot be seen as hero by later generations and still live normal life past their heroic deeds. I don't understand why it has to be mutually exclusive and I don't understand how its romantic.

I don't want to make any assumptions about your age, but I have outgrown these notions of "romance" and tragic heroes and idolization for a long time now.

it's literary, and human.  age doesn't matter - otherwise adults wouldn't find the bible itself so inspiring.  It's not idolizing - it's the romance of the story.  I don't WANT TO BE shepard.
And if it takes a number to encourage you to respect what I have to say rather than the content of my words, I am 30.

I'd say it's the opposite. I think it's human to want these characters to live and prosper. When you're buddy gets shipped off to war you say "Come home" not "Die a hero". That example may be a bit extreme in comparison, but my point is that I think it's human to want Shepard to survive, especially if you've put the work in to make sure he did. I'm not saying he has to. Even if he did die in a better ending, I would not be upset by it. But I do think it's human to want him to live.

well yeah, obviously if this was real, I wouldn't be disappointed to hear that the man who won the wore didn't die in it.  as far as a story goes, though, it fits better.

no,  it does not, sorry.  it may fit your story better, but the whole point of interactive stories that allow you to chose is you know, having a choice how it ends.  and the fact that my choice somehow cheapens yours is well...  yeah, I don't have any nice way to express it, so I'll just keep it to myself,

use your imagination

what the hell?  when did I say your choice cheapens mine?  All I'm saying is what appeals to me!

I'll remind you, too, that this is what made mordin's death so epic

[Legion91]

bossmonkeykj wrote...

Legion91 wrote...

i have a quick question here which i am confused about and it has to do with the indocrination theory.

If indeed that was the case then when you choose the destroy the reapers option like i did ( simply because i had invested so much time into the game and thought im not about to let them go without blowing their asses to hell )and you see the short scene at the end with shepards tags ad the hint he is still alivei have heard people say that he has woke from his dellusionthen andthe reapers are still around so they could possibley make dlc??

What i dont get is if thats true and you are out of your dellusionthe citadel is clearly blown up so why would the reapers not be destroyed, i mean once the catalyst is destoyed surely they are gone, alos you see scenes off the reapers on earth dying.

Also what is that pile of rubble he is under?, unless i am mistaking the crucible was in spaceso therefore he would be floating in space if he was intact and not under rubble?
which leaves me with this question, was the whole ending indeed a dream and him stopping himself from becoming docrinated and has nothing to dowith destroying the reapers, it was just apersonal mind battle and the real war is still going on??

maybe im just not following the story right here but thats what im getting, any help would be much appreciated here

according to the version of the indoctrination theory I saw, shepard was never on the citadel.  everything after the blast happened in his head, and he's still in a pile of rubble in london

So then if he was still in a pile in london after the blast surely the battle is still going on and the reapers are not gone which leaves it open for DLC endings?

but even if it was not in his head it still does not explain how he is under a pile of rubble persumably in london when the citadel blew up in space, he would not have landed under a pile of rubble in london, he would be floating around somewere.
if indeed it was not in his head then how the hell is he under rubble in london???

[Cross429]

Legion91 wrote...

What i dont get is if thats true and you are not in your dellusion the citadel is clearly blown up so why would the reapers not be destroyed, i mean once the catalyst is destoyed surely they are gone, alos you see scenes off the reapers on earth dying.

Also what is that pile of rubble he is under?, unless i am mistaking the crucible was in space so therefore he would be floating in space if he was intact and not under rubble?
which leaves me with this question, was the whole ending indeed a dream and him stopping himself from becoming indocrinated and has nothing to do with destroying the reapers, it was just a personal mind battle and the real war is still going on??  and possible DLC has already been set up to give us a proper ending?

maybe im just not following the story right here but thats what im getting, any help would be much appreciated here

Sure: Shep has been struggling with Indoc throughout the game, evidenced by the growing stress he feels and the repeated mentions of Shep possibly being co-opted throughout the game: Chakwas checking the implants, Ashley wondering, Joker noting the Shep could still be inside the Geth collective and not know it, James wondering "what that hum is" when Shep is nearby (per the codex a symptom of Indoc), the "oily shadows" per the Rachni explanation of Indoc and the disembodied voices per the codex in Shep's dreams, etc.

At the end, when he's that close to Harbinger and struck by the beam, the final Indoc battle begins. After that, Shep is passed out - hallucinating. He's still in the rubble in London. There's a ton of evidence suggesting that everything after that point is hallucinatory, not simply limited to the "dream like" UI and the huge number of plot holes. Documented fairly well here:  http://m.fanfiction.net/s/7920772/2/.

Bottom line: Shep is unconscious on earth after the Harbinger beam strike. Explaining your above concerns.

[bossmonkeykj]

jeweledleah wrote...

Omnike wrote...

clanqui wrote...

I liked the ending. I chose synthesis, which was truer to my paragon shepherds values, but they all worked. I also liked the way that ending gave you a sort of joker and EDI as adam and eve. Honestly, I don't understand how anyone could have gone into the game without understanding that this was a tragedy. I guess we've really lost our taste for them.

What... I... no. We went in thinking this was the opposite of a tragedy. It was a story about hope. Hell, even the end of ME1 was corny enough to have Shepard come out victorious standing on a piece of Soverign with triumphant music playing in the background. And, let's assume it was a tragedy from start to finish. It still dosn't explain the plot holes that I have not seen ANYONE defend without the Indoc theory.

 I'm still trying to think how can one see Mass Effect as tragedy.  I guess being the first cycle in... i have no idea how long, I'm not sure even reapers remember, anyways first cycle to actualy have a fighting chance, to managed repeated setbacks to reapers, managing to broker alliances between bitter enemies, managing to save lives against all odds.. is a tragedy?

mass effect certainly was an action drama.  but it was NOT a tragedy.

I also slightly see Shepard's death in the light that Anderson puts it, when he said he felt like he hadn't sat down in forever.  He finally gets to rest.

[bossmonkeykj]

Legion91 wrote...

bossmonkeykj wrote...

Legion91 wrote...

i have a quick question here which i am confused about and it has to do with the indocrination theory.

If indeed that was the case then when you choose the destroy the reapers option like i did ( simply because i had invested so much time into the game and thought im not about to let them go without blowing their asses to hell )and you see the short scene at the end with shepards tags ad the hint he is still alivei have heard people say that he has woke from his dellusionthen andthe reapers are still around so they could possibley make dlc??

What i dont get is if thats true and you are out of your dellusionthe citadel is clearly blown up so why would the reapers not be destroyed, i mean once the catalyst is destoyed surely they are gone, alos you see scenes off the reapers on earth dying.

Also what is that pile of rubble he is under?, unless i am mistaking the crucible was in spaceso therefore he would be floating in space if he was intact and not under rubble?
which leaves me with this question, was the whole ending indeed a dream and him stopping himself from becoming docrinated and has nothing to dowith destroying the reapers, it was just apersonal mind battle and the real war is still going on??

maybe im just not following the story right here but thats what im getting, any help would be much appreciated here

according to the version of the indoctrination theory I saw, shepard was never on the citadel.  everything after the blast happened in his head, and he's still in a pile of rubble in london

So then if he was still in a pile in london after the blast surely the battle is still going on and the reapers are not gone which leaves it open for DLC endings?

but even if it was not in his head it still does not explain how he is under a pile of rubble persumably in london when the citadel blew up in space, he would not have landed under a pile of rubble in london, he would be floating around somewere.
if indeed it was not in his head then how the hell is he under rubble in london???

that's the theory.  if what I hope is correct, we'll get dlc content with the real endings and the real fight with the reapers, and maybe even that harbinger faceoff everyone's been acheing for.

and like I said, it only makes sense if he never went to the citadel.  unless I'm missing something, he never left london.

[Cross429]

So then if he was still in a pile in london after the blast surely the battle is still going on and the reapers are not gone which leaves it open for DLC endings?

but even if it was not in his head it still does not explain how he is under a pile of rubble persumably in london when the citadel blew up in space, he would not have landed under a pile of rubble in london, he would be floating around somewere.
if indeed it was not in his head then how the hell is he under rubble in london???

Right, the Citadel never blew up at all. He was hit by the beam and wakes up only if he is able to avoid becoming Indoctrinated during the "dream Citadel" sequence.

The wake up scene is "filmed" in the aftermath of Harbinger blowing his surroundings to bits.

Modifié par Cross429, 26 mars 2012 - 12:41 .

[Legion91]

Cross429 wrote...

Legion91 wrote...

What i dont get is if thats true and you are not in your dellusion the citadel is clearly blown up so why would the reapers not be destroyed, i mean once the catalyst is destoyed surely they are gone, alos you see scenes off the reapers on earth dying.

Also what is that pile of rubble he is under?, unless i am mistaking the crucible was in space so therefore he would be floating in space if he was intact and not under rubble?
which leaves me with this question, was the whole ending indeed a dream and him stopping himself from becoming indocrinated and has nothing to do with destroying the reapers, it was just a personal mind battle and the real war is still going on??  and possible DLC has already been set up to give us a proper ending?

maybe im just not following the story right here but thats what im getting, any help would be much appreciated here

Sure: Shep has been struggling with Indoc throughout the game, evidenced by the growing stress he feels and the repeated mentions of Shep possibly being co-opted throughout the game: Chakwas checking the implants, Ashley wondering, Joker noting the Shep could still be inside the Geth collective and not know it, James wondering "what that hum is" when Shep is nearby (per the codex a symptom of Indoc), the "oily shadows" per the Rachni explanation of Indoc and the disembodied voices per the codex in Shep's dreams, etc.

At the end, when he's that close to Harbinger and struck by the beam, the final Indoc battle begins. After that, Shep is passed out - hallucinating. He's still in the rubble in London. There's a ton of evidence suggesting that everything after that point is hallucinatory, not simply limited to the "dream like" UI and the huge number of plot holes. Documented fairly well here:  http://m.fanfiction.net/s/7920772/2/.

Bottom line: Shep is unconscious on earth after the Harbinger beam strike. Explaining your above concerns.

ok sothat opens up DLC options for us to buy something that would be shepard getting up out the rubble and then the final war happening andhimactuallt going to the crucible to stop it.

but what if you choose a different ending and you become indocrinated, what would happen then?game over for you??

[Omnike]

bossmonkeykj wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

Omnike wrote...

clanqui wrote...

I liked the ending. I chose synthesis, which was truer to my paragon shepherds values, but they all worked. I also liked the way that ending gave you a sort of joker and EDI as adam and eve. Honestly, I don't understand how anyone could have gone into the game without understanding that this was a tragedy. I guess we've really lost our taste for them.

What... I... no. We went in thinking this was the opposite of a tragedy. It was a story about hope. Hell, even the end of ME1 was corny enough to have Shepard come out victorious standing on a piece of Soverign with triumphant music playing in the background. And, let's assume it was a tragedy from start to finish. It still dosn't explain the plot holes that I have not seen ANYONE defend without the Indoc theory.

 I'm still trying to think how can one see Mass Effect as tragedy.  I guess being the first cycle in... i have no idea how long, I'm not sure even reapers remember, anyways first cycle to actualy have a fighting chance, to managed repeated setbacks to reapers, managing to broker alliances between bitter enemies, managing to save lives against all odds.. is a tragedy?

mass effect certainly was an action drama.  but it was NOT a tragedy.

I also slightly see Shepard's death in the light that Anderson puts it, when he said he felt like he hadn't sat down in forever.  He finally gets to rest.

Eternal rest brings back the argument of faith. Not everyone is faithful and believe in "eternal rest". And in no way am I bashing you for believing that. Which brings us back to this fitting your story, but not mine. I'd like (not need) a bit more closure to my Shepard than death.

[bossmonkeykj]

Legion91 wrote...

Cross429 wrote...

Legion91 wrote...

What i dont get is if thats true and you are not in your dellusion the citadel is clearly blown up so why would the reapers not be destroyed, i mean once the catalyst is destoyed surely they are gone, alos you see scenes off the reapers on earth dying.

Also what is that pile of rubble he is under?, unless i am mistaking the crucible was in space so therefore he would be floating in space if he was intact and not under rubble?
which leaves me with this question, was the whole ending indeed a dream and him stopping himself from becoming indocrinated and has nothing to do with destroying the reapers, it was just a personal mind battle and the real war is still going on??  and possible DLC has already been set up to give us a proper ending?

maybe im just not following the story right here but thats what im getting, any help would be much appreciated here

Sure: Shep has been struggling with Indoc throughout the game, evidenced by the growing stress he feels and the repeated mentions of Shep possibly being co-opted throughout the game: Chakwas checking the implants, Ashley wondering, Joker noting the Shep could still be inside the Geth collective and not know it, James wondering "what that hum is" when Shep is nearby (per the codex a symptom of Indoc), the "oily shadows" per the Rachni explanation of Indoc and the disembodied voices per the codex in Shep's dreams, etc.

At the end, when he's that close to Harbinger and struck by the beam, the final Indoc battle begins. After that, Shep is passed out - hallucinating. He's still in the rubble in London. There's a ton of evidence suggesting that everything after that point is hallucinatory, not simply limited to the "dream like" UI and the huge number of plot holes. Documented fairly well here:  http://m.fanfiction.net/s/7920772/2/.

Bottom line: Shep is unconscious on earth after the Harbinger beam strike. Explaining your above concerns.

ok sothat opens up DLC options for us to buy something that would be shepard getting up out the rubble and then the final war happening andhimactuallt going to the crucible to stop it.

but what if you choose a different ending and you become indocrinated, what would happen then?game over for you??

I would imagine so.  I'm not sure why you're asking like we know for sure.  No one knows yet.

[RescueCat]

I played the last two games six times a piece. So far I've played ME3 once. Please, Bioware, make me want to play five more times. I love good sci-fi. I'm down with cerebral endings. But you've got to make me care. I got to the ending and thought I was playing Fable. I have no desire to give Mass Effect another 30 hours, just to pick (1,2,or 3)= pretty much the same. I want to be Fox Mulder with you Bioware! Please make me care! (And after shelling out loyally for the collector's edition, please don't stick your hand in my pocket. I thought we were friends)

My favorite endings were all the individual character arcs. Why? Because you succeeded brilliantly at getting me emotionally invested. I was not emotionally invested with that kid, or the great organics vs synthetics debate. Actually I was, when it came to geth vs quarians, because I knew who they were. I was fine with thinking of Reapers as Space Cthulu.

[Cross429]

but what if you choose a different ending and you become indocrinated, what would happen then?game over for you??

Nah, as a writer I'd say you do a quick "wake up Shepard" scene. The love interest reminds him of all he's sacrificed over the course of a touching convo wheel or something. Maybe Shep's decision here affects the end....he realizes he can/can't resist Indoc or something (like the Matriarch earlier in the series).

Either way, you can begin the DLC slightly differently depending on the player's call in the dream state, have the middle be largely static, and branch wildly at the end....essentially the pattern we were told would represent the end to ME3 by the devs.

[bossmonkeykj]

Omnike wrote...

bossmonkeykj wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

Omnike wrote...

clanqui wrote...

I liked the ending. I chose synthesis, which was truer to my paragon shepherds values, but they all worked. I also liked the way that ending gave you a sort of joker and EDI as adam and eve. Honestly, I don't understand how anyone could have gone into the game without understanding that this was a tragedy. I guess we've really lost our taste for them.

What... I... no. We went in thinking this was the opposite of a tragedy. It was a story about hope. Hell, even the end of ME1 was corny enough to have Shepard come out victorious standing on a piece of Soverign with triumphant music playing in the background. And, let's assume it was a tragedy from start to finish. It still dosn't explain the plot holes that I have not seen ANYONE defend without the Indoc theory.

 I'm still trying to think how can one see Mass Effect as tragedy.  I guess being the first cycle in... i have no idea how long, I'm not sure even reapers remember, anyways first cycle to actualy have a fighting chance, to managed repeated setbacks to reapers, managing to broker alliances between bitter enemies, managing to save lives against all odds.. is a tragedy?

mass effect certainly was an action drama.  but it was NOT a tragedy.

I also slightly see Shepard's death in the light that Anderson puts it, when he said he felt like he hadn't sat down in forever.  He finally gets to rest.

Eternal rest brings back the argument of faith. Not everyone is faithful and believe in "eternal rest". And in no way am I bashing you for believing that. Which brings us back to this fitting your story, but not mine. I'd like (not need) a bit more closure to my Shepard than death.

I'm an atheist, and pretty hardcore about it.  so I don't believe in an afterlife.  But a romantic as well, as you've seen here.  finally getting to rest in death seems poetic to me.

Modifié par bossmonkeykj, 26 mars 2012 - 12:44 .

[MikeC99]

Legion91 wrote...

i have a quick question here which i am confused about and it has to do with the indocrination theory.

...

What i dont get is if thats true and you are not in your dellusion the citadel is clearly blown up so why would the reapers not be destroyed, i mean once the catalyst is destoyed surely they are gone, alos you see scenes off the reapers on earth dying.

Also what is that pile of rubble he is under?, unless i am mistaking the crucible was in space so therefore he would be floating in space if he was intact and not under rubble?
which leaves me with this question, was the whole ending indeed a dream and him stopping himself from becoming indocrinated and has nothing to do with destroying the reapers, it was just a personal mind battle and the real war is still going on??  and possible DLC has already been set up to give us a proper ending?

maybe im just not following the story right here but thats what im getting, any help would be much appreciated here

Valid questions and conundrums. I can't see that any of the current end makes sense unless it all didn't actually happen. Well, either that or Bioware REALLY botched the ending. OK - I can live with some sci-fi 'magic' (like has anyone ever explained how communications across the whole galaxy are instantaneous? That's not just faster than light that's ... unbelievable; really unbelievable. But it's a game, it's always been that way, so I suspend my disbelief because at least it's consistent throughout the games) but all the holes in the current ending ....? I don't want the Indoctrination theory to be right; but I can't see what else works, because the alternative is "Yes Virginia. They really did stuff it up that badly!"  So if it's not that, then yes, in some way it hasn't really happened. At that point, then speculation is all we have - until Bioware sets us straight. Such a pity they didn't choose that in the first place. 

So:  "and possible DLC has already been set up to give us a proper ending?"  Yep - reckon that's the nail and that's the hammer.
cheers
MikeC