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THE REAL MESSAGE ENCODED IN THE MAGIC EXPLOSION WAS DISCOVERED:
www.youtube.com/watch
On the Mass Effect 3 endings. Yes, we are listening.
Débuté par
Chris Priestly
, mars 15 2012 02:55
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#10902
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:17
oldretired60
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bossmonkeykj, you better believe after spending as much time and money on these games as we have there are thousands of us that fell entitled to have a choice to have a good ending. It could have been added among the other endings. If you don't, good for you, you seem to be in the minority.
Modifié par oldretired60, 26 mars 2012 - 01:22 .
#10903
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:19
4stringwizard
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As I've said before, I thought it would have been a great twist to reveal the Reapers to have once been an organic race. It would have not only made their actions cruelly ironic, it would have explained everything about their mysterious origins.
#10904
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:20
smith_techs
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bossmonkeykj wrote...
CuseGirl wrote...
#1. For me, I actually wanted to survive the Battle for Earth and go find Miranda, where ever she may be in the galaxy. With the destroyed relays and the requirement for 5000 EMS (which really requires multiplayer), that may or may not be possible. But I can handle not living if I didn't "do enough".
#2. If Bioware hasn't claimed the Indoctrination Theory, then that basically means they approved the most half-baked ending in the history of video game endings. And that's disheartening.
#3. If they do back track and claim the Indoctrination Theory, why would you end the game after Shepard wins or loses the battle in his mind? Why wouldn't you then keep the game going? Also, if you're gonna pull the "this is happening in your mind" jargon, why didn't you explicitly say to the character "this is happening in your mind". Not a single player should have to go on YouTube and find out that conversation with TiM and Anderson didn't actually happen.
#4. If Bioware comes out with some DLC trying to explain these endings and still keeps the destroyed Mass Relays, I'm trading the game back. Period. End of story.
They didn't keep the game going because of THIS. what's happening right now. if they had just finished the game, none of this debating would be happening. The way they've done it, we have time to simmer in the indoctrination - the indoctrination is actually happening to US, not just shepard. It's an ingenious, immersive idea.
I also personally didn't mind the mass relays being destroyed. Something about humanity knowing that there are fantastic places and civilizations out there that we'll only be able to ever see again when we learn how the universe works and harness its secrets ourselves (i.e. develop the technology of the mass relays for ourselves) again, seems romantic. staring up at the stars in wonder, awe, and curiosity is what drives the scientific mind, and it is one of the most noble aspirations of humanity.
"I also personally didn't mind the mass relays being destroyed. Something about humanity knowing that there are fantastic places and civilizations out there that we'll only be able to ever see again when we learn how the universe works and harness its secrets ourselves"
Really? All the other civilizations are stuck in the Sol system with the humans! Because the Mass Relay is gone. Am I right?
#10905
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:24
And A Crab
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I hope this letter will serve to illustrate the reasons for the nearly unanimous animosity towards the ending of Mass Effect 3. Let me start off by saying that I truly love the Mass Effect series. I loved the unique gameplay in which my decisions would affect the outcomes of the story. I feel the characters were incredibly genuine and their relationships believable. One of the defining reasons I loved this game was the incredible concentration on the tiniest of details, the wonderful complexity of the codex, even the overheard conversations and random dialog all created an immersive experience where the player could fully participate in the game. While playing through the series I would find myself consciously debating the morals of a fictional universe, knowing and attempting to foresee the repercussions of their outcomes. This was the first and only game I played where the sequel was not just another story with the same title; it was another chapter of an epic journey I was playing through… it was a dynamic story where my decisions would ultimately result in what I thought would be a multitude unique and appropriate endings.
Mass Effect 3 was probably the single greatest game I have played, that is, up until getting hit with Harbinger’s laser. The action was great, but what I really loved was the intense storyline. Of all the games, this had by far the best dialog, I felt the most emotion towards the characters, and I could feel the tension leading up to the final Battle of Earth. While watching the scene of Shepherd hanging out with Garrus on top of the presidium I found myself smiling in front of the TV like a child, this doesn’t even happen in when I watch movies. The fans of Mass Effect are emotionally invested very heavily into these games.
Now my problems with the ending (I am not using plural because they are all essentially the same ending, minus a few minute details and colors) is not that Shepherd dies, it would be appropriate in most cases, it’s not that the reapers are controlled by another synthetic, it’s not even that the citadel is destroyed… it’s about the immense change in the attitude of the game. I know that MY Shepherd would NEVER just accept the catalyst’s three options…. NEVER, he would find another way, or die trying.
It’s about the massive inconsistencies in the immediate aftermath. Why is the Normandy escaping? Joker would not have just dropped us off and then fly away… there’s all this talk of the battle ending the war, one way or another, but not only is he running away from the war he also managed to pick up the squadmates who I’m fairly sure were just vaporized by Harbinger, before he left.
That’s the thing, I wouldn’t have cared if one of the endings was everyone dies and the Reapers win (possibly with a scene of a future alien finding Liara’s time capsule), because that was a known possibility throughout the game, in fact, odds were greatly leaning in favor of that happening . And the ending results in the destruction of all of the Mass Relays? Well lets hypothetically ignore the fact that it was established earlier in the game that the Batarian homeworld was “turned to ash” when the Alliance Fleet destroyed a single mass relay, so what happens to the massive armada assembled around Earth? The game already established that Turians and Quarians can’t eat Human food, so I guess they starve to death. And what about the others? Are they just stranded there? But back to the whole “turned to ash” thing. Any ending would have basically resulted in the destruction of all civilization anyway, so what’s the point?
And now I come to the point of collecting war assets, which I have ruled to be completely futile. Why did I spend so much time recruiting all of the alien races of the galaxy to fight on earth if they were never there? Every cutscene shows Human vs Reapers… I wanted to see Elcor with railguns on their backs, Quarians and Geth fighting side by side, I saved the Rachni in Mass Effect 1… Why weren’t they helping me tear apart cannibals in London?
I for one feel lied to, and betrayed. We were prepared for drastically different endings… your own developers blatantly said this. Instead we get one ending and a cheesy cut forward to a child listening to the story of “The Shepherd” from his grandpa. The ending was cheap, sloppy and quite frankly, it’s as if the people who wrote and developed the last 15 minutes of the game weren’t even aware of the basis of the series. It goes against the very essence of the game… it literally incorporates NONE of the choices made throughout the series, especially so with those made in the preceding games.
The idea of a Galaxy-wide dark age doesn’t work, you could destroy their technology, but the knowledge is still there. Even after thinking about it, the ending could fit into what should have been a series of endings… but there’s no way it should have been the only course of action. If there was a renegade option of saying “Screw you we’ll kick their asses on our own” to the Catalyst, I would have chosen that, and watched the civilizations of the world fight to the last man. Why? Because it would have made sense. That being my whole point: The ending makes absolutely no sense. It doesn’t fit with the rest of the series. The ending did for me with the Mass Effect Series what the fourth Indiana Jones film did for those series. It polluted and ruined the game… You must bring order to the chaos (you see what I did there??? haha)
So in closing my very long rant I leave you with some suggestions. These are some of my ideas for how it could have/ should have possibly ended.
1- Reapers win, everyone dies. Due to insufficient war assets. I really like the idea of a future race finding Liara’s time capsule.
2- The original ending would work in one scenario, possibly if Shepherd doesn’t ignore or simply complies with the catalyst. (scrap the fairy tale kid in the park idea, and get rid of the Normandy running away) if it was up to me I would get rid of this ending completely or at least get rid of the catalyst AI
3- Give us a very difficult to achieve, happy ending, yeah its cliché, but dammit we deserve it. Make Shepherd King of the Galaxy for all I care
4- The idea of Shepherd dying in the end is a strong idea. Self sacrifice for the rest of civilization is one of his key principles and it is very true to the story.
5- I never liked the idea of controlling the reapers as a pet, but at least it’s plausible within the context of the story and for that, I feel it should have been included.
6- Throughout the battle of London there weren’t any tactics involved, nor was the entire squad present. Shepherd should have been able to make decisions affecting the outcome of the Battle along with the fate of his other squadmates.
7- All of these endings should have differing degrees of character deaths/successes in them, similar to suicide mission of Mass Effect 2.
8- I would have been happy with the ending just being Shepherd and Anderson dying side by side on the citadel, followed by a successful deployment of the crucible. (Shepherd and Garrus would have been better, especially considering the final conversations of them dying together in battle… Foreshadowing)
9- No matter what ending, the Normandy leaving the battle should not be included in any of the endings
10-All of the endings should show at least partially the different war assets you’ve acquired for the final battle.
I've given you guys eight endings which I'm sure would have received better feedback that what you currently have. And to be completely honest, I don’t care if adding a corrected ending would just be complacency towards negative feedback. It’s the right thing to do. These games are incredible and they don’t deserve to end with an anti-climactic dud.
Mass Effect 3 was probably the single greatest game I have played, that is, up until getting hit with Harbinger’s laser. The action was great, but what I really loved was the intense storyline. Of all the games, this had by far the best dialog, I felt the most emotion towards the characters, and I could feel the tension leading up to the final Battle of Earth. While watching the scene of Shepherd hanging out with Garrus on top of the presidium I found myself smiling in front of the TV like a child, this doesn’t even happen in when I watch movies. The fans of Mass Effect are emotionally invested very heavily into these games.
Now my problems with the ending (I am not using plural because they are all essentially the same ending, minus a few minute details and colors) is not that Shepherd dies, it would be appropriate in most cases, it’s not that the reapers are controlled by another synthetic, it’s not even that the citadel is destroyed… it’s about the immense change in the attitude of the game. I know that MY Shepherd would NEVER just accept the catalyst’s three options…. NEVER, he would find another way, or die trying.
It’s about the massive inconsistencies in the immediate aftermath. Why is the Normandy escaping? Joker would not have just dropped us off and then fly away… there’s all this talk of the battle ending the war, one way or another, but not only is he running away from the war he also managed to pick up the squadmates who I’m fairly sure were just vaporized by Harbinger, before he left.
That’s the thing, I wouldn’t have cared if one of the endings was everyone dies and the Reapers win (possibly with a scene of a future alien finding Liara’s time capsule), because that was a known possibility throughout the game, in fact, odds were greatly leaning in favor of that happening . And the ending results in the destruction of all of the Mass Relays? Well lets hypothetically ignore the fact that it was established earlier in the game that the Batarian homeworld was “turned to ash” when the Alliance Fleet destroyed a single mass relay, so what happens to the massive armada assembled around Earth? The game already established that Turians and Quarians can’t eat Human food, so I guess they starve to death. And what about the others? Are they just stranded there? But back to the whole “turned to ash” thing. Any ending would have basically resulted in the destruction of all civilization anyway, so what’s the point?
And now I come to the point of collecting war assets, which I have ruled to be completely futile. Why did I spend so much time recruiting all of the alien races of the galaxy to fight on earth if they were never there? Every cutscene shows Human vs Reapers… I wanted to see Elcor with railguns on their backs, Quarians and Geth fighting side by side, I saved the Rachni in Mass Effect 1… Why weren’t they helping me tear apart cannibals in London?
I for one feel lied to, and betrayed. We were prepared for drastically different endings… your own developers blatantly said this. Instead we get one ending and a cheesy cut forward to a child listening to the story of “The Shepherd” from his grandpa. The ending was cheap, sloppy and quite frankly, it’s as if the people who wrote and developed the last 15 minutes of the game weren’t even aware of the basis of the series. It goes against the very essence of the game… it literally incorporates NONE of the choices made throughout the series, especially so with those made in the preceding games.
The idea of a Galaxy-wide dark age doesn’t work, you could destroy their technology, but the knowledge is still there. Even after thinking about it, the ending could fit into what should have been a series of endings… but there’s no way it should have been the only course of action. If there was a renegade option of saying “Screw you we’ll kick their asses on our own” to the Catalyst, I would have chosen that, and watched the civilizations of the world fight to the last man. Why? Because it would have made sense. That being my whole point: The ending makes absolutely no sense. It doesn’t fit with the rest of the series. The ending did for me with the Mass Effect Series what the fourth Indiana Jones film did for those series. It polluted and ruined the game… You must bring order to the chaos (you see what I did there??? haha)
So in closing my very long rant I leave you with some suggestions. These are some of my ideas for how it could have/ should have possibly ended.
1- Reapers win, everyone dies. Due to insufficient war assets. I really like the idea of a future race finding Liara’s time capsule.
2- The original ending would work in one scenario, possibly if Shepherd doesn’t ignore or simply complies with the catalyst. (scrap the fairy tale kid in the park idea, and get rid of the Normandy running away) if it was up to me I would get rid of this ending completely or at least get rid of the catalyst AI
3- Give us a very difficult to achieve, happy ending, yeah its cliché, but dammit we deserve it. Make Shepherd King of the Galaxy for all I care
4- The idea of Shepherd dying in the end is a strong idea. Self sacrifice for the rest of civilization is one of his key principles and it is very true to the story.
5- I never liked the idea of controlling the reapers as a pet, but at least it’s plausible within the context of the story and for that, I feel it should have been included.
6- Throughout the battle of London there weren’t any tactics involved, nor was the entire squad present. Shepherd should have been able to make decisions affecting the outcome of the Battle along with the fate of his other squadmates.
7- All of these endings should have differing degrees of character deaths/successes in them, similar to suicide mission of Mass Effect 2.
8- I would have been happy with the ending just being Shepherd and Anderson dying side by side on the citadel, followed by a successful deployment of the crucible. (Shepherd and Garrus would have been better, especially considering the final conversations of them dying together in battle… Foreshadowing)
9- No matter what ending, the Normandy leaving the battle should not be included in any of the endings
10-All of the endings should show at least partially the different war assets you’ve acquired for the final battle.
I've given you guys eight endings which I'm sure would have received better feedback that what you currently have. And to be completely honest, I don’t care if adding a corrected ending would just be complacency towards negative feedback. It’s the right thing to do. These games are incredible and they don’t deserve to end with an anti-climactic dud.
#10906
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:26
bossmonkeykj
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smith_techs wrote...
bossmonkeykj wrote...
CuseGirl wrote...
#1. For me, I actually wanted to survive the Battle for Earth and go find Miranda, where ever she may be in the galaxy. With the destroyed relays and the requirement for 5000 EMS (which really requires multiplayer), that may or may not be possible. But I can handle not living if I didn't "do enough".
#2. If Bioware hasn't claimed the Indoctrination Theory, then that basically means they approved the most half-baked ending in the history of video game endings. And that's disheartening.
#3. If they do back track and claim the Indoctrination Theory, why would you end the game after Shepard wins or loses the battle in his mind? Why wouldn't you then keep the game going? Also, if you're gonna pull the "this is happening in your mind" jargon, why didn't you explicitly say to the character "this is happening in your mind". Not a single player should have to go on YouTube and find out that conversation with TiM and Anderson didn't actually happen.
#4. If Bioware comes out with some DLC trying to explain these endings and still keeps the destroyed Mass Relays, I'm trading the game back. Period. End of story.
They didn't keep the game going because of THIS. what's happening right now. if they had just finished the game, none of this debating would be happening. The way they've done it, we have time to simmer in the indoctrination - the indoctrination is actually happening to US, not just shepard. It's an ingenious, immersive idea.
I also personally didn't mind the mass relays being destroyed. Something about humanity knowing that there are fantastic places and civilizations out there that we'll only be able to ever see again when we learn how the universe works and harness its secrets ourselves (i.e. develop the technology of the mass relays for ourselves) again, seems romantic. staring up at the stars in wonder, awe, and curiosity is what drives the scientific mind, and it is one of the most noble aspirations of humanity.
"I also personally didn't mind the mass relays being destroyed. Something about humanity knowing that there are fantastic places and civilizations out there that we'll only be able to ever see again when we learn how the universe works and harness its secrets ourselves"
Really? All the other civilizations are stuck in the Sol system with the humans! Because the Mass Relay is gone. Am I right?
trust me, I don't like that either. I'm just talking about why I would like the mass relays destroyed, just not in the way they were, where everyone is stranded in the Sol system. If they had ended it where the mass relays were destroyed, but not before everyone was somehow sent home, I would've liked that idea. purely speaking in hypotheticals, not what actually happened.
#10907
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:28
jeweledleah
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bossmonkeykj wrote...
I agree, NOT dying can also be pretty epic. Climbing out of Sovereign's wreckage, WAS f*cking epic.
when you say destroyed mass relays dooms the galaxy, are you talking about the stranded victory fleet? cause I agree with you there, but I don't see how destroying the mass relays dooms the galaxy otherwise. can't they survive just fine without the mass relays?
current galactic civilization is dependaon on relays both for communication and for supply lines. I was trying to find more invormation on quantum-entanglement communicators and just how wide spread they are, but as far as i could tell, they are still extremely limited. so whoever didn't have them, or had them destroyed? is completely isolated. and based on codex entries for reaper war? communications was the first thing that repaers hit for every cluster they would invade.
but that's not as bad as supply lines. aside from the fact that Sol system cannot support entire galactic fleet - many of the colonies are not equipped to be self sufficient. they depend on regular supply drops for their existance. the only colonies that stand a chance? are agricultural ones. the only species that are not afversly affected? are pre spaceflight ones. becasue they do not depend on interstelar travel for their survival.
and Krogan? are going extinct, basicaly. becasue there are no garden planets in Krogan DMZ. and Tuchanka could barely support life even before the shroud was destroyed. and the shroud was the only thing standing between them and nuclear winter masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Shroud
lastly another big issue with destruction of mass relays EVEN if somehow everyone had a chance to get back home and EVEN if they somehow managed to make sure that they can survive on whatever their cluster provides?
whatever alliances you forged? don't really matter. you get the same outcome. it makes Shepard actions pointless (and yes, if you try to lie to Wrex about Genophage, he figures it out and withdraws Krogan support - and yet you STILl get the exact same endings)
Modifié par jeweledleah, 26 mars 2012 - 01:31 .
#10908
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:29
General Tiberius
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jeweledleah wrote...
bossmonkeykj wrote...
jeweledleah wrote...
bossmonkeykj wrote...
.
I'm an atheist, and pretty hardcore about it. so I don't believe in an afterlife. But a romantic as well, as you've seen here. finally getting to rest in death seems poetic to me.
we have a very different notion of romance. i don't find death romantic.
I think death is a very powerful literary tool and can be very romantic. Just to be sure - you know I'm not talking about romantic as in love, right? from the way you talk, I know you probably know that, but you never know on the internet.
I know. riding off into the sunset I find romantic. walking off to new adventures. death? death is too final. it can be done as poignant (see Mordin). but I cannot see it as romantic.
or epic (that's respones to other attempt to explain to me why its better that Shepard dies)
Shepard climbing out of the wreckage of sovereign was epic. Shepard leaping with his omniblade to stab the Brute was cheesy.. but slightly epic. Shepard dying? about as epic as Conrad.
that said. I can see death working for at least one of my Shepards (the one that romanced Thane and shares his fatalistic philosophy). maybe more then one. but not for mainshep. or secondary one. death for them is anticlimactic
and to reitterate. Relays must remain in best possible endings. one of the thing that pissed me off so much about Shepards death was just how pointless it was. Shepard didn't save the galaxy. he/she doomed it. at least this cycle. galactic reset ftw?
Boromir from The Lord of the Rings would like a word with you concering epic deaths
I disagree with your view on the Relays. The races all have FTL travel which doesn't rely on the Relays which they use to travel between systems in local clusters. The Reapers managed to travel to our Galaxy from dark space in around three years, so the alien fleets could travel back to their homeworlds on normal FTL. It'd just take longer and they'd have to refuel/resupply along the way.
Also, the more technologically advanced races (Asari, Turian, Salarian, Human) could probably rebuild the relays, the Protheans managed to build a relay after all. It'll be easier if you picked the destroy ending, all those dead Reapers will be a very easy source of Element Zero and research into their mass effect cores will no doubt yield incredible technological advances. They were built by the same people who built the Mass Relays so their technology will be very similar to the Relays, just on a smaller scale.
The destruction of the relays is not the apocalypse people make it out to be. It opens up the possibility of new technologies. As for dooming this cycle, I'd say being alive on your home planet/system/local cluster is better than being turned into goo and fashioned into a machine of destruction, wouldn't you?
#10909
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:30
Devos
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It's taken me some time to get around to finishing the game.
The first thing to get out of the way is why is the Normandy jumping through a mass relay that is exploding? This makes no sense.
Just. No. Sense.
With that out the way...
The rest of it I get more or less (prevent singularity, give every cycle their turn rather then let one ruin it for everyone to come. However it isn't really that well explained or presented and you have very little opportunity to challenge the "solution".
I really don't like Ending-o-matic machines. I was really reminded of Deus Ex: Human Revolution where you literally had three buttons to pick your ending, none of which were really that satisfying. However it also reminded me of Enslaved: Odyssey to the West's ending where it turns out the machine antagonists actually had a reason which wasn't just "we're evil machines". How that gets resolved the player has no choice in. In a twisted way as result the player has more choice than ME3 because the weight is put into who they feel about what happened as opposed to ME3 where you pick which colour explosion you want. An ending which stemmed from a dialogue would be better but an ending which came from world, the characters which in Mass Effect means the choices you made would be preferable.
The ending has so little relation to everything before. In a series where the consequence of choices has been played up so much it's an anticlimax. The result of the endings render moot pretty much every choice.
As for Shepard dying, I can deal with that but I felt it was a bit heavy handed. The deaths of previous squad mates, (Mordin, Legion, Thane) were all about being willing to make the sacrifice when needed. The problem is that the opportunity to play this card was missed or at best botched. The thing is that whether or not Shepard died was immaterial in fulfilling this theme, it is about the acceptance and the willingness and that's a moment we don't get. Conversely I don't feel this theme was properly fulfilled simply because Shepard died.
The finale to sub arcs within ME3 were often much more satisfying and affirming than the ending itself. The Ranoch section really jumps out for this.
There is one game I can think of which takes into account a large number of variables which decide how the ending turns out and that's Mass Effect 2. It's really, really disappointing that Mass Effect 3 doesn't do that, especially since with the restriction of the entry condition into the next game removed it could be so much more open. In particular reconciling the Geth and Quarians is pretty strong counter argument to the need for the "solution" or any solution. It is massively disappointing that's not reflected.
I think part of the problem is that different endings were meant to have parity, there was no right one, they are each a valid choice. The cost of this is that they all somewhat a crappy outcome and providing a satisfying closure falls by the way side for this parity. It is ok for there to be an ending which is an outright better outcome if reflects what the player has done.
What I was hoping to see addressed is what happens to the galactic community, free of the reapers, free of the cycle. They've stood together to achieve something, how does that change things? The mass relays are (probably) gone as are the paths of development set out by the reapers. The civilisations of the galaxy now have to advance on their own and perhaps for now separated from each other.
The first thing to get out of the way is why is the Normandy jumping through a mass relay that is exploding? This makes no sense.
Just. No. Sense.
With that out the way...
The rest of it I get more or less (prevent singularity, give every cycle their turn rather then let one ruin it for everyone to come. However it isn't really that well explained or presented and you have very little opportunity to challenge the "solution".
I really don't like Ending-o-matic machines. I was really reminded of Deus Ex: Human Revolution where you literally had three buttons to pick your ending, none of which were really that satisfying. However it also reminded me of Enslaved: Odyssey to the West's ending where it turns out the machine antagonists actually had a reason which wasn't just "we're evil machines". How that gets resolved the player has no choice in. In a twisted way as result the player has more choice than ME3 because the weight is put into who they feel about what happened as opposed to ME3 where you pick which colour explosion you want. An ending which stemmed from a dialogue would be better but an ending which came from world, the characters which in Mass Effect means the choices you made would be preferable.
The ending has so little relation to everything before. In a series where the consequence of choices has been played up so much it's an anticlimax. The result of the endings render moot pretty much every choice.
As for Shepard dying, I can deal with that but I felt it was a bit heavy handed. The deaths of previous squad mates, (Mordin, Legion, Thane) were all about being willing to make the sacrifice when needed. The problem is that the opportunity to play this card was missed or at best botched. The thing is that whether or not Shepard died was immaterial in fulfilling this theme, it is about the acceptance and the willingness and that's a moment we don't get. Conversely I don't feel this theme was properly fulfilled simply because Shepard died.
The finale to sub arcs within ME3 were often much more satisfying and affirming than the ending itself. The Ranoch section really jumps out for this.
There is one game I can think of which takes into account a large number of variables which decide how the ending turns out and that's Mass Effect 2. It's really, really disappointing that Mass Effect 3 doesn't do that, especially since with the restriction of the entry condition into the next game removed it could be so much more open. In particular reconciling the Geth and Quarians is pretty strong counter argument to the need for the "solution" or any solution. It is massively disappointing that's not reflected.
I think part of the problem is that different endings were meant to have parity, there was no right one, they are each a valid choice. The cost of this is that they all somewhat a crappy outcome and providing a satisfying closure falls by the way side for this parity. It is ok for there to be an ending which is an outright better outcome if reflects what the player has done.
What I was hoping to see addressed is what happens to the galactic community, free of the reapers, free of the cycle. They've stood together to achieve something, how does that change things? The mass relays are (probably) gone as are the paths of development set out by the reapers. The civilisations of the galaxy now have to advance on their own and perhaps for now separated from each other.
#10910
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:30
smith_techs
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bossmonkeykj wrote...
smith_techs wrote...
bossmonkeykj wrote...
CuseGirl wrote...
#1. For me, I actually wanted to survive the Battle for Earth and go find Miranda, where ever she may be in the galaxy. With the destroyed relays and the requirement for 5000 EMS (which really requires multiplayer), that may or may not be possible. But I can handle not living if I didn't "do enough".
#2. If Bioware hasn't claimed the Indoctrination Theory, then that basically means they approved the most half-baked ending in the history of video game endings. And that's disheartening.
#3. If they do back track and claim the Indoctrination Theory, why would you end the game after Shepard wins or loses the battle in his mind? Why wouldn't you then keep the game going? Also, if you're gonna pull the "this is happening in your mind" jargon, why didn't you explicitly say to the character "this is happening in your mind". Not a single player should have to go on YouTube and find out that conversation with TiM and Anderson didn't actually happen.
#4. If Bioware comes out with some DLC trying to explain these endings and still keeps the destroyed Mass Relays, I'm trading the game back. Period. End of story.
They didn't keep the game going because of THIS. what's happening right now. if they had just finished the game, none of this debating would be happening. The way they've done it, we have time to simmer in the indoctrination - the indoctrination is actually happening to US, not just shepard. It's an ingenious, immersive idea.
I also personally didn't mind the mass relays being destroyed. Something about humanity knowing that there are fantastic places and civilizations out there that we'll only be able to ever see again when we learn how the universe works and harness its secrets ourselves (i.e. develop the technology of the mass relays for ourselves) again, seems romantic. staring up at the stars in wonder, awe, and curiosity is what drives the scientific mind, and it is one of the most noble aspirations of humanity.
"I also personally didn't mind the mass relays being destroyed. Something about humanity knowing that there are fantastic places and civilizations out there that we'll only be able to ever see again when we learn how the universe works and harness its secrets ourselves"
Really? All the other civilizations are stuck in the Sol system with the humans! Because the Mass Relay is gone. Am I right?
trust me, I don't like that either. I'm just talking about why I would like the mass relays destroyed, just not in the way they were, where everyone is stranded in the Sol system. If they had ended it where the mass relays were destroyed, but not before everyone was somehow sent home, I would've liked that idea. purely speaking in hypotheticals, not what actually happened.
Yeah, I agree with you. Let the poor Quarians get home, they just got it back. (Maybe even can share it with the Geth if you made that choice)
#10911
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:31
bossmonkeykj
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oldretired60 wrote...
bossmonkeykj, you better believe after spending as much time and money on these games as we have there are thousands of us that fell entitled to have a choice to have a good ending. It could have been added among the other endings. If you don't, good for you, you seem to be in the minority.
you gave bioware money, and they gave you a product. you got what you paid for. if you didn't like it, tough, you don't have to buy from them any more. the amount of time you spent playing their game and how invested you got is all a bonus, and you aren't entitled to enjoying it. it's obviously good business to make a product you'll enjoy, but if you didn't, they don't really owe you anything more, especially with the hours of good entertainment you got out of it, regardless of the ending.
#10912
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:31
Cross429
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So: "and possible DLC has already been set up to give us a proper ending?" Yep - reckon that's the nail and that's the hammer.
Yep.
My guess, the sequence of events was as follows:
1) The planned to have the "dark energy" plot based on all the foreshadowing. Deemed too dark.
2) They adjusted to plan for a glorious ending after Shep was indoctrinated and beat it. Supported by the dev notes.
3) Deadlines approaching. EA breathing down their neck. Too short a dev cycle. Start planning for the temp ending --> DLC thang.
4) Decide to do a "tack on" ending at the last minute (Martin Sheen's ending voice over was re-scheduled to pretty much the beginning of the final "bug hunt" cycle of development - i.e. the end, like it or not). Whether it's Indoc or somethin else.
What they didn't expect was that the "tack on's" would be negatively received to this degree. They always expected to "cause speculation," but never expected this degree of outrage.
Hence the responses from Dr. Ray, et. al.
Modifié par Cross429, 26 mars 2012 - 01:33 .
#10913
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:33
CaiusWickersham
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Okay, I finished the game last night and ran through two of the endings to get the one I wanted; the one that felt like a proper close to the story I told through the trilogy. Now, let me say this up front: I was not thrilled with what I got in my endings.
I wasn't peeved with the Catalyst AI taking the form of the kid from the beginning. I could process that and I was perfectly fine with the AI taking a piece of Shepard's thought processes to find a proper "user interface" to talk to him. Now, what I didn't like:
I wasn't peeved with the Catalyst AI taking the form of the kid from the beginning. I could process that and I was perfectly fine with the AI taking a piece of Shepard's thought processes to find a proper "user interface" to talk to him. Now, what I didn't like:
- The three choices felt like they were taken from Deus Ex and given a new coat of paint. They didn't fit to the Mass Effect universe we were given at the beginning.
- Commander Shepard going from "future Navy SEAL who gave TWO ancient cybernetic monstrosities the finger" to "whatever you say" when he faces the Catalyst AI. This thing admits to creating the Reapers to solve what it considers a problem in a manner any reasonable person would consider reprehensible and we can prove is absolutely wrong. And Shepard just takes this computer's statements without question?! I know he's hurting all over and likely has a severe concussion, blood loss, a broken arm and possible brain damage, but when has that stopped Shepard?
- Joker and EDI are Adam and Eve, now? What the heck is the Normandy doing outside the solar system, anyway? And how did everyone else get back to the Normandy in the first place, including my companions? The scene just makes NO SENSE.
- I hope everyone packed extra rations, because I just blew up the galactic freeway. Yeah, it's probably not a huge problem for the asari to go system-hopping (plenty of possibilities within 12 ly of Earth), but what about the salarians (40 year lifespans), krogan (plenty of breeding happening there), turians and quarians (completely different biochemistry than most worlds in the galaxy)?
- Game/codex dissonance. Which is it? Are the Reapers nigh unto invincible (game) or can a modest combined force leave them hurting (codex)? If the former, what was the point of what I did? If the latter, why show things to be so desperate in the end? Pick one and stick with it!
- Mordin's sacrifice got to me. I understand why he did it and it fit. It was a struggle to keep him alive in 2, but this was what he was meant to do. He cured the genophage and it was a great way to close his story.
- Thane was given a good sendoff. He should have just had one final moment with Shepard and Kolyat in the hospital as he passed, but he went out showing Kai Leng to be nothing more than a chromed-up chump. Dying of respiratory failure and still fought the cyber-assassin to a standstill. Kai Leng has nothing to boast about to Shepard (Renegade interrupt on him in the end was boss).
- Tali got her homeworld back! She was a favorite of mine as a tech-savvy girl and she got what she deserved. I was glad to see her grow as a character to actually care about Legion and actually consider peace with the geth as an option. The only thing better would be to see her wield power as an admiral to make the flotilla stand down from war with the geth. The girl finally becomes a woman in her own right.
- Garrus. I liked him a bit at first, but as the games progressed I liked him more and more. He's a good friend to Shepard and his gentle ribbing is pretty much "male soldier bond" right there. Shepard's good, but he can hold his own as well. Give him a sniper rifle and a secure spot and he can hold off an army. In fact, he has!!!
#10914
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:33
Franginator
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Bioware, I first want to say that I very much enjoyed the game. I personally believe that my favorite part of it was when I was forced to decide whether or not to screw Wrex over and foul him into thinking that the Genophage was cured, or telling him what the Salarians had planned, thus losing their support for the final battle. It tore me up inside. I sat there, in front of my computer monitor, for probably 10 minutes trying to decide what to do. In the end, my Commander Sheppard decided to tell Wrex. It was the only thing that i could do. Friendship and loyalty really meant something to my Sheppard.
On to what I really really wanted to say.
My Sheppard.
Of course, ultimately, he doesn't really belong to me. He was created by you folks, with my input and me making the decisions that I would have probably made, were I in Sheppard's shoes. So, in a way, he was me. He was my avatar in the game, in this world where we can fly through space, speak with Aliens, and come together as a galaxy to defend ourselves.
I felt the ending was simply unfullfilling. That is my main issue. Yes, some of the plot holes did not make sense to me (ie. Why was Joker trying to flee? How would he have known to flee? Why would he leave the final battle like that?). My major problem comes in the fact that it is simply not what I would have chosen.
It has felt to me, throughout all of the series, that self-determination has been a primary theme. Bucking the odds and doing what you felt was right. Trying to fight against overwhelming force because, gosh darn it, the human race has a right to LIVE. The 'good' or synthesis ending as it is being called, is what really has me upset. Because I chose that ending, my Sheppard has litterally been forced to take away self-determination from the galaxy. He has chosen, for everyone, that this is better. I disagree, vehmenently, with this assertion. I also must disagree with the god child's assertion that the created will ALWAYS rise to kill their masters. I helped the Geth and Quarian races come to a peace, when they had been at war for CENTURIES. Yes, it would have been tenuous at first, but that is the first step. It could have worked. I even had geth choosing to fight beside me as we attempted to take back Earth. I was fighting with synthetics against sythetics. The self determination of these synthetics made them as real as anyone could ever be. I treated them like people and so the did the rest of the galaxy. The god child's assertions, in my game anyway, made absolutely no sense.
The destruction of the Mass Relays, in either the Control or Synthesis ending, also makes no sense to me. These left me numb. What about all of the people now stranded in the Sol System? I had a TON of ships, from races all across the galaxy, coming in to try to help me. What happens to them? Are they trapped forever? What happens to the Quarian's homeworld? Will they ever have a chance to get back there now? How long with this tenuous alliance last?
These are the issues that I had with the game. Mass Effect, the entire series, has been the best RPG I have ever played. I am a huge science fiction nerd, so I loved every moment of it. From the first time I set down on Eden Prime and met Ashley, all of the way up to trying to get on to the Citadel and getting nailed by Harbinger's Beam. The ending of Mass Effect 3 left me felling numb and unfullfilled.
Thank you for your time and thank you for listening. And thank you for creating such a fantastic series.
On to what I really really wanted to say.
My Sheppard.
Of course, ultimately, he doesn't really belong to me. He was created by you folks, with my input and me making the decisions that I would have probably made, were I in Sheppard's shoes. So, in a way, he was me. He was my avatar in the game, in this world where we can fly through space, speak with Aliens, and come together as a galaxy to defend ourselves.
I felt the ending was simply unfullfilling. That is my main issue. Yes, some of the plot holes did not make sense to me (ie. Why was Joker trying to flee? How would he have known to flee? Why would he leave the final battle like that?). My major problem comes in the fact that it is simply not what I would have chosen.
It has felt to me, throughout all of the series, that self-determination has been a primary theme. Bucking the odds and doing what you felt was right. Trying to fight against overwhelming force because, gosh darn it, the human race has a right to LIVE. The 'good' or synthesis ending as it is being called, is what really has me upset. Because I chose that ending, my Sheppard has litterally been forced to take away self-determination from the galaxy. He has chosen, for everyone, that this is better. I disagree, vehmenently, with this assertion. I also must disagree with the god child's assertion that the created will ALWAYS rise to kill their masters. I helped the Geth and Quarian races come to a peace, when they had been at war for CENTURIES. Yes, it would have been tenuous at first, but that is the first step. It could have worked. I even had geth choosing to fight beside me as we attempted to take back Earth. I was fighting with synthetics against sythetics. The self determination of these synthetics made them as real as anyone could ever be. I treated them like people and so the did the rest of the galaxy. The god child's assertions, in my game anyway, made absolutely no sense.
The destruction of the Mass Relays, in either the Control or Synthesis ending, also makes no sense to me. These left me numb. What about all of the people now stranded in the Sol System? I had a TON of ships, from races all across the galaxy, coming in to try to help me. What happens to them? Are they trapped forever? What happens to the Quarian's homeworld? Will they ever have a chance to get back there now? How long with this tenuous alliance last?
These are the issues that I had with the game. Mass Effect, the entire series, has been the best RPG I have ever played. I am a huge science fiction nerd, so I loved every moment of it. From the first time I set down on Eden Prime and met Ashley, all of the way up to trying to get on to the Citadel and getting nailed by Harbinger's Beam. The ending of Mass Effect 3 left me felling numb and unfullfilled.
Thank you for your time and thank you for listening. And thank you for creating such a fantastic series.
#10915
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:35
Cross429
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you gave bioware money, and they gave you a product. you got what you paid for. if you didn't like it, tough, you don't have to buy from them any more. the amount of time you spent playing their game and how invested you got is all a bonus, and you aren't entitled to enjoying it. it's obviously good business to make a product you'll enjoy, but if you didn't, they don't really owe you anything more, especially with the hours of good entertainment you got out of it, regardless of the ending.
You're correct.
But Bioware, back to the days of Baldur's Gate, has always been motivated to create a positive experience for its fans. As you noted, this is good business, but it's more than that: it means they mean something as a company.
Anyone can engineer software. Plenty do. Bioware has always been special: we're not entitled, but we're certainly hoping that they live up to their legacy.
#10916
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:36
bossmonkeykj
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Cross429 wrote...
you gave bioware money, and they gave you a product. you got what you paid for. if you didn't like it, tough, you don't have to buy from them any more. the amount of time you spent playing their game and how invested you got is all a bonus, and you aren't entitled to enjoying it. it's obviously good business to make a product you'll enjoy, but if you didn't, they don't really owe you anything more, especially with the hours of good entertainment you got out of it, regardless of the ending.
You're correct.
But Bioware, back to the days of Baldur's Gate, has always been motivated to create a positive experience for its fans. As you noted, this is good business, but it's more than that: it means they mean something as a company.
Anyone can engineer software. Plenty do. Bioware has always been special: we're not entitled, but we're certainly hoping that they live up to their legacy.
cheers to that
that being the case, the worst emotion we SHOULD feel towards them is disappointment, NOT anger
Modifié par bossmonkeykj, 26 mars 2012 - 01:37 .
#10917
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:37
smith_techs
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Franginator
You hit the nail on the head. The quarian fleet being standed bothered me more that anything else. Oh well.
You hit the nail on the head. The quarian fleet being standed bothered me more that anything else. Oh well.
#10918
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:37
jeweledleah
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General Tiberius wrote..
Boromir from The Lord of the Rings would like a word with you concering epic deaths
I disagree with your view on the Relays. The races all have FTL travel which doesn't rely on the Relays which they use to travel between systems in local clusters. The Reapers managed to travel to our Galaxy from dark space in around three years, so the alien fleets could travel back to their homeworlds on normal FTL. It'd just take longer and they'd have to refuel/resupply along the way.
Also, the more technologically advanced races (Asari, Turian, Salarian, Human) could probably rebuild the relays, the Protheans managed to build a relay after all. It'll be easier if you picked the destroy ending, all those dead Reapers will be a very easy source of Element Zero and research into their mass effect cores will no doubt yield incredible technological advances. They were built by the same people who built the Mass Relays so their technology will be very similar to the Relays, just on a smaller scale.
The destruction of the relays is not the apocalypse people make it out to be. It opens up the possibility of new technologies. As for dooming this cycle, I'd say being alive on your home planet/system/local cluster is better than being turned into goo and fashioned into a machine of destruction, wouldn't you?
I didn't like his death, I thought it was tragic. i didn't think it was epic.
as for ftl travel - reapers, apprently don't need to discharge their cores periodicaly or risk frying electronics and organics alike. traveling outside of clusters? aint happening.
rebuilding relays you say? relays are worthless without an exit point. so lets say they rebuild the sol relay. and? it will go absolutely nowhere. when protheans built the conduit - they built it as a matched pair.
and as for dying as goo or dying on your planet from starvation? I don't know, its stll a cruel death. picking a lesser evil doesn't make that lesser evil any good. its still evil.
lastly. "even the dead god dreams" how dead are reapers exactly?
#10919
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:37
bossmonkeykj
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smith_techs wrote...
Franginator
You hit the nail on the head. The quarian fleet being standed bothered me more that anything else. Oh well.
nothing they're not used to
#10920
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:41
jeweledleah
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bossmonkeykj wrote...
smith_techs wrote...
Franginator
You hit the nail on the head. The quarian fleet being standed bothered me more that anything else. Oh well.
nothing they're not used to
funny thing is, if they brought enough conversted lifeships.. they might have the highest chance of survival.. untill that is, Turians decide that they need to share the bulk of their food... whether they like it.. or not.
#10921
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:43
bossmonkeykj
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jeweledleah wrote...
bossmonkeykj wrote...
smith_techs wrote...
Franginator
You hit the nail on the head. The quarian fleet being standed bothered me more that anything else. Oh well.
nothing they're not used to
funny thing is, if they brought enough conversted lifeships.. they might have the highest chance of survival.. untill that is, Turians decide that they need to share the bulk of their food... whether they like it.. or not.
yeah, my thoughts exactly, they're the ones I feel the least sorry for to be honest - they've been living like they're about to be forced to live again for a long time. they'll be fine. it's the others we need to worry about. or at least, we WOULD need to, if the whole thing weren't just a hallucination
Modifié par bossmonkeykj, 26 mars 2012 - 01:43 .
#10922
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:43
Cross429
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And A Crab wrote...
That’s the thing, I wouldn’t have cared if one of the endings was everyone dies and the Reapers win (possibly with a scene of a future alien finding Liara’s time capsule), because that was a known possibility throughout the game, in fact, odds were greatly leaning in favor of that happening .
What a great frickin' idea for an epilogue. Occurred to you and probably others - wish it had occurred to me! After Shep's sacrifice (whether post-It or not), you have future civilizations - the form of which is shaped by player decisions - looking back on what happened to characters and summarizing the overall story.
Now that's a bloody ending. Why did a staff of writers so capable not go there?
#10923
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:44
thefallen2far
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varnol wrote...
bryceax wrote...
Congrats on being part of the 0.1%
Yeah, well, I know I'm rare gem, but I still believe that most people hated the ending because "Sheppard dies, oh noes!" and "where is my slideshow!" - and that is just... weird. To spend so many hours on this, so many emotions - and fail to appreciate it fully means that people are just being negative about it.
I can understand the "Shepard is like God" symbolism and I can see how people can like it for that reason. But that's just one reason to like it, and a big reason to not like it. Religion is a very sensitive subject. If it's shoehorned onto someone, they're going to act negatively. hink about the ending of Lost.... it was following the Buddhist concept of accention to a higher plain of conciousness. Some people loved the ending and thought it was great and a lot of people just didn't like the ending.
One of the common themes is if you're rated high enough, there's options to how the story unfolds. There wasn't so much rigidness throught the games. You don't have to fight Saren, you could convince him to kill himself. You could talk wrex down instead of killing him. You could kill Garrus's traitor or loose his loyalty mission, or if you were good enough, you could convince Garrus not to kill the traitor. When Tali is on trial, you could let her take the fall, blame her father, or if you're good enough then you have the option to not make that choice. You could side with Quarians or the Geth, or if you're good enough you could make peace between the races.
There were many choices, but in the end... you're given your choices and you have to accept those choices as the only options regardless of how good or leveled up you are and you never see the effects of your actions you're just promised if you pay more money, you could expand on aspects of the ending you already said you hated. Definative endings were against the style of the game throughout the game... that was its appeal.
I mean, a lot of people are saying that Phantom Menace left a bad taste in people's mouth and ruined their enjoyment of the Star Wars franchise. This ending is very akin to that. They don't have to change it, but they have the option to. With multiple endings, it's a win-win, you get your ending maybe everyone else gets theirs.
As a side note... without the mass relays and if your crew escaped and are stranded on that new eden..... Garrus and Tali are screwed.
Modifié par thefallen2far, 26 mars 2012 - 02:05 .
#10924
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:44
Omnike
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bossmonkeykj wrote...
Cross429 wrote...
you gave bioware money, and they gave you a product. you got what you paid for. if you didn't like it, tough, you don't have to buy from them any more. the amount of time you spent playing their game and how invested you got is all a bonus, and you aren't entitled to enjoying it. it's obviously good business to make a product you'll enjoy, but if you didn't, they don't really owe you anything more, especially with the hours of good entertainment you got out of it, regardless of the ending.
You're correct.
But Bioware, back to the days of Baldur's Gate, has always been motivated to create a positive experience for its fans. As you noted, this is good business, but it's more than that: it means they mean something as a company.
Anyone can engineer software. Plenty do. Bioware has always been special: we're not entitled, but we're certainly hoping that they live up to their legacy.
cheers to that
that being the case, the worst emotion we SHOULD feel towards them is disappointment, NOT anger
I can second this. Or third. Whatever. Which is kind of why I'm glad that the majority I've seen HAVE been pretty constructive in their feedback on the ending. if they weren't, I don't think the indoctrination theory would make as much sense as it does.
#10925
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 01:44
bossmonkeykj
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Cross429 wrote...
And A Crab wrote...
That’s the thing, I wouldn’t have cared if one of the endings was everyone dies and the Reapers win (possibly with a scene of a future alien finding Liara’s time capsule), because that was a known possibility throughout the game, in fact, odds were greatly leaning in favor of that happening .
What a great frickin' idea for an epilogue. Occurred to you and probably others - wish it had occurred to me! After Shep's sacrifice (whether post-It or not), you have future civilizations - the form of which is shaped by player decisions - looking back on what happened to characters and summarizing the overall story.
Now that's a bloody ending. Why did a staff of writers so capable not go there?
Yeah, I wanted that ending to be an option too.
