clanqui wrote... Death is the end of every human story. Has nothing to do with faith. "Count no man happy who is not dead" does not mean that we are only happy in death. It means that it isn't possible to measure a human story until it has reached its conclusion.
Shepherds story kindof rocked.
Death does not have to be the end of every individual story. Did Tom Sawyer die at the end of the story? No. He can die after living a life after this story. His story kind of rocked up until the point that he wasn't Shepard anymore. He was an obedient dog to someone he should not have trusted so easily.
Are you suggesting that tom sawyer was immortal? Or that mass effect was a coming of age story?
One of the overriding themes of mass effect since the beginning, especially in it's paragon arcs, is noble sarifice. Both of the first two games ended in suicide missions, that Shepherd only survived due to silly deus ex machina. In the very clearly advertised end of the series with the big dramatic finish how could anyone expect anything different than what happened.
No.. I didn't at all suggest that Tom Sawyer was immortal. I suggested that he didn't die in his individual story. It wasn't the span of his life, and Mass Effect doesn't have to be either. And I don't think it's ever been about noble sacrifice, it's been about overcoing the odds, which is something you do in every game. Suicide mission? Everyone lived and we beat the reaper. In both instances. Shepard never said to the Reaper "Well, alright, if you have to kill us all." So at the end of ME3, he says "These are my three options? All of which **** the galaxy in some way? Well, alright then."
Someone compiled all of this earlier in the thread. Before the 100 pages, I believe. Pretty crazy though, I checked most of the sources myself and they do check out with the quotes.
Well then I thank that somebody as well. It's clear that what the team intended, based on quotes, was something different from what they put out. So I have to ask, why: was this simply the result of development pressure, which for the first time fundamentally compromised the quality of this series? Or did they intend to honor the series in the end (I guess the only option being through DLC?) Based on Bioware's record, I'm inclined to believe the latter.
absolutly loved the ending, The sense of accomplisment i had once the credits started rolling. i dont understand everyones anger against the ending your team produced. starting tomorrow imgoing back to play ME1 and start Shepards mission all over again! thanks for the smaming game!
Uh....huh? You know it will end the exact same way, right?
I say expand the Normandy's campaign so it feels like many months or years pulling all this together ,but leave the "ending" as is using an atempted/partical indocternation of Shepard and comtinue the story/war from there. I say this because Harbinger in ME2 alive and i think it would still.
Have the Crucible be just a elaberate "Trojan Horse" to draw the "paragon"s of each cycle together and use them the indocernate thier people and Crucible is a giant indocernation emiter but they need these "paragon"s like legion was use to control the geth.
I would like to see more push back against the reapers rather than just Tuchanka being reaper free.
Sacrifice was never a theme in Mass Effect, not really. Defiance was always more important. Stealing the Normandy in mass effect 1, setting out to foil the collectors despite no assistance form the council in 2, taking on an impossible suicide mission and coming out the other end like a boss -- that's all defiance. Refusing to shut up, refusing to quietly go away, and refusing to give up when the situation seemed unwinnable.
Where is the sacrifice? Legion and mordin -- but it's possible that they died before me3 even started.
Sacrifice was never a theme in Mass Effect, not really. Defiance was always more important. Stealing the Normandy in mass effect 1, setting out to foil the collectors despite no assistance form the council in 2, taking on an impossible suicide mission and coming out the other end like a boss -- that's all defiance. Refusing to shut up, refusing to quietly go away, and refusing to give up when the situation seemed unwinnable.
Where is the sacrifice? Legion and mordin -- but it's possible that they died before me3 even started.
Christian themes find their way in to all sorts of media. And there's nothing particularly religious about them. They're just themes that they both share. Who's going to get offended every time there's a martyr or a selfless person in a story because there are parallels with Jesus? that's ridiculous.
I must have expressed myself insufficiently.
I was responding to someone who liked it for religious reasons. Someone who likes something because of religious parrallels has the piece of fiction touch them in a way that someone who doesn't, doesn't. Think of Passion of the Christ.... if someone likes it for religious reasons, someone else will not understand the enjoyment of a snuff film. Sacrifice and martyrdom are different themes that could be loved independently. And it's not in every case parallel.
Sacrifice was never a theme in Mass Effect, not really. Defiance was always more important. Stealing the Normandy in mass effect 1, setting out to foil the collectors despite no assistance form the council in 2, taking on an impossible suicide mission and coming out the other end like a boss -- that's all defiance. Refusing to shut up, refusing to quietly go away, and refusing to give up when the situation seemed unwinnable.
Where is the sacrifice? Legion and mordin -- but it's possible that they died before me3 even started.
Shepard is not John Marston.
Ash or Kaiden.
I don't think it was sacrifice free, but it most definitely was not the main theme of them.
“Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike any other, where the decisions you make completely shape your experience and outcome.”
“I’m always leery of saying there are 'optimal' endings, because I think one of the things we do try to do is make different endings that are optimal for different people “
“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t say any more than that…”
“Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the architect of what happens."
“You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide some answers to these people.”
“Because a lot of these plot threads are concluding and because it's being brought to a finale, since you were a part of architecting how they got to how they were, you will definitely sense how they close was because of the decisions you made and because of the decisions you didn't make”
“For people who are invested in these characters and the back-story of the universe and everything, all of these things come to a resolution in Mass Effect 3. And they are resolved in a way that's very different based on what you would do in those situations.”
“Fans want to make sure that they see things resolved, they want to get some closure, a great ending. I think they’re going to get that.”
“Mass Effect 3 is all about answering all the biggest questions in the lore, learning about the mysteries and the Protheans and the Reapers, being able to decide for yourself how all of these things come to an end.”
Interviewer: “So are you guys the creators or the stewards of the franchise?” Hudson: “Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with the fans. We use a lot of feedback.”
Interviewer: [Regarding the numerous possible endings of Mass Effect 2] “Is that same type of complexity built into the ending of Mass Effect 3?” Hudson: “Yeah, and I’d say much more so, because we have the ability to build the endings out in a way that we don’t have to worry about eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot more different. At this point we’re taking into account so many decisions that you’ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that stuff. It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them.”
“We have a rule in our franchise that there is no canon. You as a player decide what your story is.”
Killer. Killer.
Thanks for compiling; I'm too lazy for that kind of thing.
The sum total of which forces us to ask: why? Given the stated intentions of the Devs, why was all that abandonded?
My personal belief is that they ran out of time/money to complete the Indocrtrination theory ending - after which we'd get some real results - and so settled for this "tack on" ending as an interim solution towards DLC. Of course, they weren't expecting that we'd all be able to see this truly terrible endng for what it was. At least not so coherently, and en masse. Hold the line.
The more I start to think about the entire game I start to realize all the elements it was missing. I guess I was just so focused on getting war assets and taking the fight to the Reapers I forgot all the stuff in ME2.
For example: Why were the humans so important that only the collectors were targeting human colonies. Why was there no dialogue with the Reapers besides the few short sentences on Rannoch. Why no side quests besides scanning planets and multi maps? Why was it so short? Why wasn't Harbinger included at all when he was the one of the main conflicts in ME2. No continuation of that. I could go on but I get depressed more....
Yea, you have to choose to kill someone on Virmire. It's a tough call, but you just keep on trucking. You're buried at the final battle of me1, and you crawl out to soaring music -- and then you apparently die again on camera at the start of the second game -- but nope, you keep clawing and refusing to be stopped.
It's mature and it's gritty -- but there's nothing tragic there. Tragic heroes don't survive suicide missions and they're not resurrected. Sorry.
1.The introduction of the Cataylst AI reaper controller boy and his explanation of the reapers. Having the reapers be a millions of years old synthetic/program machines gone wrong was enough for storytelling purpose and the logic of they were made to harvest organics before organics could make synthetics is just ridiculous and makes no sense. Then you leave it at that and don't have Shepard even question it. IT MAKES NO SENSE AND HAS NO LOGIC!
2. Totally taking control and choice away from Shepard at the end. He totally was a walking puppet who takes in everything the boy says and accepts the choices which are all death/suicide, his squad is nowhere to be found and he can apparently communicate on com with Anderson but not the Normandy, WTF?. Not even having a final climax of boss fight with Hardbinger or a TIM/Reaper made the end all the more aweful.
We should have had a awesome but short Citadel crawl/fight to the control room fought and killed TIM/Reaper hybrid, hit the panel, called in Normandy for evac and escaped befpre it all blew up. The insertion of the Crucible could have instantly set off reaper beam once arms fully extended or set by remote, giving you time to flee.
The entire series and franchise of games and material is ruined by the Cataylst, his absurd explanation for Reapers and the lack of having even the option of a happy/heroic ending where Shepard and crew live. Great Sci-Fi ruined in 15 minutes by dark, nihilistic, cliche and illogical writing themes already proven to be hated by the majority of gamers and fans in any genre.
Sacrifice was never a theme in Mass Effect, not really. Defiance was always more important. Stealing the Normandy in mass effect 1, setting out to foil the collectors despite no assistance form the council in 2, taking on an impossible suicide mission and coming out the other end like a boss -- that's all defiance. Refusing to shut up, refusing to quietly go away, and refusing to give up when the situation seemed unwinnable.
Where is the sacrifice? Legion and mordin -- but it's possible that they died before me3 even started.
Shepard is not John Marston.
Ash or Kaiden.
I don't think it was sacrifice free, but it most definitely was not the main theme of them.
Sheperds death. The suicide mission. Yes, it really is.
Amusingly, here is a decent article talking about many of the same questions after the first game.
In the last link, with regards to how we ended up with the current ending considering the possibility of the IT being conceptualised by Bioware writers all along, J. M Stevenson says:
"So here’s what I think happened. I think the writing team at Bioware originally had the indoctrination theory in mind, and the game designers were diligently creating all the subtle clues, preparing to pull of the most brilliant narrative effect in recent memory. Then they hit the wall…the wall of a looming deadline and rapidly shrinking money pile. Mass Effect 3 had already been delayed by three months, and properly incorporating the Indoctrination Theory into the game would have resulted in another delay. So someone without a shred of artistic integrity saw the ending sequence of the indoctrination and said “why not just make this the ending?” so they whipped up a half-baked closing cinematic, slapped it on the end and called it a day."
I'm not sure I am quite convinced, but in any case, just for arguments sake assume that the IT was always part of the story and either a decision was made to hold off the REAL ending for dlc, then I'd say two things:
(i) Conceptually, ie ignoring the whole furore about dlc and false ending, then I would argue that the already blurring lines between screen play, novel writing and game writing have been shattered by this REAL ending (if it exists and we get to participate at some stage), and without any sense of hyperbole, I would further argue that potentially this ME3 ending (ie the one that is yet to appear) is a landmark; and what's more, bordering on brilliant, in conception, in writing, and in on-screen implementation. In short, it would define "11" on a 10/10 rating scale.
(ii) Whoever made the decision to deal with it this way, for whatever perceived imperative, should take a leaf out of Saren and TIM's 'put myself out of my own misery' option. At the least, when the dust finally settles, whoever made the decision to go with the current ending and hold over the real ending to dlc should at least have the internal fortitude to point themselves out with a very large "Buck Stops Here!" tattoed on their forehead. If the reasoning was economic, ie driven by decision not to postpone delivery, than I desperately hope that a lesson is learned, and likewise should be tattoed on parts where Wrex got 'sampled': 'Don't EVER do that again!' In which case there may be some good to come of it, so that next time some bean counter suggests this as a tactic, someone if not older than at least wiser will be able to say "Ah ... do you want me to tell you the story about Shephard again?"
Poorly thought through economic imperatives aside, and prepared to cut Bioware some slack, ignoring the reasons why they did this, if this is what they actually did, then the position they are now in is damn difficult. To front up completely would impact hugely on those who have yet to play, and probably many who are part way through. I would also imagine most folks who haven't already bought the game would think: "OK - guess I'll wait and see what the reaction is to the dlc before committing my $s to this game." In addition, all those of us who already have the game would be even more irate knowing that we haven't bought the ending at all. In which case, holding back the ending for dlc that costs $s is duplicitous on Bioware's part.
If, I repeat IF this is how it is - Indoc Theory right; Shephard wakes up in real world and real ending happens in dlc to come - then I will be at pains to accept the artistic and creative merit of the whole before passing final judgement. I will also endeavour to ensure that my negative reactions to the manipulation of we the players that is at the heart of the reason why the ending is this way, do not cloud my judgment. But equally, no matter how good the 'real' ending may be, it will not alter my perception that the way it has been packaged is a cheap trick.
We, in fact, do seem to have three options:
(i) Indoctrination Theory: dlc to cme; brilliant ending; but we have been manipulated none-the-less. (ii) Unbelievably shoddy writing and conceptualisation at the end of an otherwise strong and at times brilliant gaming trilogy. (iii) Something else. TBA. But just as much in the dark as I am now. And teetering on "Whatever. Just over it now. Sorry."
Sacrifice was never a theme in Mass Effect, not really. Defiance was always more important. Stealing the Normandy in mass effect 1, setting out to foil the collectors despite no assistance form the council in 2, taking on an impossible suicide mission and coming out the other end like a boss -- that's all defiance. Refusing to shut up, refusing to quietly go away, and refusing to give up when the situation seemed unwinnable.
Where is the sacrifice? Legion and mordin -- but it's possible that they died before me3 even started.
Shepard is not John Marston.
Ash or Kaiden.
I don't think it was sacrifice free, but it most definitely was not the main theme of them.
Sheperds death. The suicide mission. Yes, it really is.
Amusingly, here is a decent article talking about many of the same questions after the first game.
The suicide mission wasn't suicide... there was no sacrifice. There was overcoming the odds. And death? He OVERCAME that. There was far more hope than sacrifice. Shepard even says that he's not going to sacrifice a single human life.
Compare William Wallace to Shepard. William Wallace isn't revealed be alive at the end of braveheart.
Alive AGAIN. After being "dead" in the rubble, "dead" in outer space with a hole in his suit, "dead" but undaunted in the face of a one way trip through the omega relay, "dead" at the base of the beam in London, "dead" next to Anderson and then "dead" again after shooting the red destroy console.
Then he wakes up AGAIN.
Where in the WORLD is the sacrifice? He seems positively messianic in his epic heroism.
I think I understand it now. Shepard is Jesus...he the second coming of Christ. I'm pretty sure I saw the twisted steel look like a cross when he took a breath... Let us lift up and praise the almighty Commander Shepard!
Personally I enjoy the ending, was little disjointed here & there but it was not too bad. If they were to alter they should simply keep the overall theme/scenes and re-add in scenes to expand on what's there.
Such scene as the deleted one from"the final hrs " where your squad dies in front of you before entering the beam to citadel, that scene could of existed if you didn't have enough readiness etc, if you had enough readiness then your squad survives that blast, injured and is ordered back to Normandy by Shepard before entering the beam
The 3 catalyst choices can also remain along with start of all the existing endings, except add in scene showing what leads to before Normandy going to jump. at this point depending on your stats, readiness etc will spin off to 4 main path end:
- Normandy jumps, existing stranded scene + outro speech about now we are stranded, new dawn new beginning etc
- Normandy jumps blows up and all goes to hell as u complete fail
- Normandy doesn't jump, make it back to earth remember shepard's sacrifice etc etc with surviving species settling on earth/rebuilding earth if it got torch before
Personally I don't think Shepard should survive as him/ her sacrificing makes it so much more impacting on end, however they could do if that's what enough people want....
- Normandy doesn't jump and gets back to earth Shepard somehow ok as became new catalyst, outro showing surviving species settling on earth and new dawn what the future hold etc....
I don't know whether this is old news or not, but you guys/ girls need to read Shamus Youngs' blog regarding the ME3 ending. Because it is a complete analysis regarding (how bad it was) the ME3s' ending.
We appreciate everyone’s feedback about Mass Effect 3 and want you to know that we are listening. Active discussions about the ending are more than welcome here, and the team will be reviewing it for feedback and responding when we can. Please note, we want to give people time to experience the game so while we can’t get into specifics right now, we will be able to address some of your questions once more people have had time to complete the game. In the meantime, we’d like to ask that you keep the non-spoiler areas of our forums and our social media channels spoiler free.
We understand there is a lot of debate on the Mass Effect 3 ending and we will be more than happy to engage in healthy discussions once more people get to experience the game. We are listening to all of your feedback.
In the meantime, let's give appreciation to Commander Shepard. Whether you loved the ME3 ending or didn't or you just have a lot of questions, he/she has given many of us some of the best adventures we have had while playing games. What was your favorite moment?
I am not quite sure what to say here due to the conflicting nature of the thread "On the Mass Efect 3 endings", and it being under the "spoilers allowed" section. Yet, the origionator of this thread, Chris Priestly, wants us to avoid spoilers and talk about our favorite moments. Sorry Chris, but the name of the topic is "ME 3 endings", not "favorite moments". It also is in the "spoilers allowed" section of the forums, so I will be following that as well. Given how fast info travels these days and we're well past launch, and you can find out anything about the game at this point "no spoilers" is pretty much mute.
I am going to cut right to the chase. The music, so often an overlooked aspect in many games, was one I could litterally see being in a movie as it enhanced the games feel in that you felt like you were ina true fight for the galaxy. The story had me pulled in from the getgo...... The ending, was beyond "not satisfying" as some might call it. It was a joke. The blatantly obvious, and unorigional, obvious reference to the Matrix where an AI says "you have a choice". To get to this point, provided you played all three games, you had to make 4000+ choices. I felt betrayed at this point by the BioWare/EA team for these bland choices more appropriate stand alone game rather than something that's part of a series like this. Three of the four endings having shepard die. Yet no way to have Shepard live out his days with his romantic partner? No last minute message from Shepard to say he loves his romantic interest and he's sorry? No saying "blow up the citidel, it's the only way to ensure this will never haappen again"...Not to mention why was the Normandy in mid jump when the relays blew up? All I kept think was "gee thanks guys, nice setup for Mass Effect 4, when you said it was a three game series".
Sacrifice was never a theme in Mass Effect, not really. Defiance was always more important. Stealing the Normandy in mass effect 1, setting out to foil the collectors despite no assistance form the council in 2, taking on an impossible suicide mission and coming out the other end like a boss -- that's all defiance. Refusing to shut up, refusing to quietly go away, and refusing to give up when the situation seemed unwinnable.
Where is the sacrifice? Legion and mordin -- but it's possible that they died before me3 even started.
Shepard is not John Marston.
Ash or Kaiden.
I don't think it was sacrifice free, but it most definitely was not the main theme of them.
seeing as he just listed a good handful of sacrifices, I'd say it's a pretty strong theme, especially when shepard has vivid dreams about the guilt of the sacrifices, and shep talks with garrus about how to rationalize the sacrifices with numbers
I think I understand it now. Shepard is Jesus...he the second coming of Christ. I'm pretty sure I saw the twisted steel look like a cross when he took a breath... Let us lift up and praise the almighty Commander Shepard!
in the 2nd game he rose again, in fulfillment of the cycle. he ascended into the citadel, and shot at the right hand of the catalyst. he will come again in glory to judge the synthetics, and their kingdom will come to an end.
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