Sacrifice was never a theme in Mass Effect, not really. Defiance was always more important. Stealing the Normandy in mass effect 1, setting out to foil the collectors despite no assistance form the council in 2, taking on an impossible suicide mission and coming out the other end like a boss -- that's all defiance. Refusing to shut up, refusing to quietly go away, and refusing to give up when the situation seemed unwinnable.
Where is the sacrifice? Legion and mordin -- but it's possible that they died before me3 even started.
Shepard is not John Marston.
Ash or Kaiden.
I don't think it was sacrifice free, but it most definitely was not the main theme of them.
seeing as he just listed a good handful of sacrifices, I'd say it's a pretty strong theme, especially when shepard has vivid dreams about the guilt of the sacrifices, and shep talks with garrus about how to rationalize the sacrifices with numbers
But there is so much more defiance than sacrifice. Shepard talks about sacrificing with Garrus, but he also says he doesn't want to sacrifice. He WON'T sacrifice. And would you have really played through the entire series if you knew that the series would end the way it did, with Shepard's really lame sacrifice? Forced sacrifice? I wouldn't.
I hope they dont give us just closure for the current endings. That would be terrible. they need to lop off the last 15 minutes of the game and give us something that makes sense.
Any closure that comes after the current endings would still be terrible.
Favorite moment was the hung over Ashley scene, which was very funny. Figure most of this has all been said already (didn't read all 400+ pages of posts), but why not 1 more time... The sacrificial Shepard ending, lack of choices and all, left me with this epic and overwhelming 'I can't believe it's the end' feeling and had me playing until 3 a.m. on a work night, because I had to finish... and then it cuts to a scene with the Normandy running away from the fight? How could they run away? What an awful thought that the game's main non-Shepard heroes ran away from the fight. This tore my focus off of the rest of the ending, as I sat and started thinking more about the plot holes in what came next, rather than just accepting it as the end of the story. As happy as I was to see my crew from the final mission survive, how did they get back on the ship? Are all other species in the galaxy stranded on Earth now? Seems like the most important moment of all 3 games combined did not get the time and consideration that it deserved. Bioware has made many of my favorite games over the past 5 - 10 years with fantastic story telling and character development, so I don't understand how the ball got dropped on such a defining moment for the developer... Was the release rushed? Did the addition of multiplayer really take precedent over a well crafted ending? This game is still fantastic and well above most other game's standards, but did nobody edit the ending before release?
Personally I enjoy the ending, was little disjointed here & there but it was not too bad. If they were to alter they should simply keep the overall theme/scenes and re-add in scenes to expand on what's there.
Such scene as the deleted one from"the final hrs " where your squad dies in front of you before entering the beam to citadel, that scene could of existed if you didn't have enough readiness etc, if you had enough readiness then your squad survives that blast, injured and is ordered back to Normandy by Shepard before entering the beam
The 3 catalyst choices can also remain along with start of all the existing endings, except add in scene showing what leads to before Normandy going to jump. at this point depending on your stats, readiness etc will spin off to 4 main path end:
- Normandy jumps, existing stranded scene + outro speech about now we are stranded, new dawn new beginning etc - Normandy jumps blows up and all goes to hell as u complete fail - Normandy doesn't jump, make it back to earth remember shepard's sacrifice etc etc with surviving species settling on earth/rebuilding earth if it got torch before
Personally I don't think Shepard should survive as him/ her sacrificing makes it so much more impacting on end, however they could do if that's what enough people want....
- Normandy doesn't jump and gets back to earth Shepard somehow ok as became new catalyst, outro showing surviving species settling on earth and new dawn what the future hold etc....
First of all, I want to congratz the Bioware staffs for the amazing work on ME3, its a marvel and I really like the multiplayer system.
I agree completely, as aching878 said War Assets should have more impact on the Final Push, since its Shep role in ME3. For examples having a higher war assets could save some of your companions, admiral Haket, even the Normandy and finally with enough HIGH war assets, you get the breathing Shep clip. Right now having 2000WA and 6000WA, there are no many differences.
So, I believe War Assets should have a bigger impact the Single player campaign and this can be build with DLCs.
Now about the ending: Three choices but only one ending therefore not Bioware style, sounds more like EA style. Come on! If so many fans found the ending too straight then, Im pretty sure, many Bioware staffs found this strange too.
Sacrifice was never a theme in Mass Effect, not really. Defiance was always more important. Stealing the Normandy in mass effect 1, setting out to foil the collectors despite no assistance form the council in 2, taking on an impossible suicide mission and coming out the other end like a boss -- that's all defiance. Refusing to shut up, refusing to quietly go away, and refusing to give up when the situation seemed unwinnable.
Where is the sacrifice? Legion and mordin -- but it's possible that they died before me3 even started.
Shepard is not John Marston.
Ash or Kaiden.
I don't think it was sacrifice free, but it most definitely was not the main theme of them.
seeing as he just listed a good handful of sacrifices, I'd say it's a pretty strong theme, especially when shepard has vivid dreams about the guilt of the sacrifices, and shep talks with garrus about how to rationalize the sacrifices with numbers
But there is so much more defiance than sacrifice. Shepard talks about sacrificing with Garrus, but he also says he doesn't want to sacrifice. He WON'T sacrifice. And would you have really played through the entire series if you knew that the series would end the way it did, with Shepard's really lame sacrifice? Forced sacrifice? I wouldn't.
Agreed. And there is already so much sacrifice throughout the series that, frankly, Shepard deserves a break.
I just can't believe they developed these endings, played them over and over and said "yea, this is exactly how it should be".....none of them discussed whether or not Shepard was being indoctrinated? None of them discussed "uh, so do we WANT the Mass Relays to be destroyed". None of them thought it ODD that Joker was running away from a mass relay explosion? with your crew on the ship? 2 of whom may have been running toward the Citadel with you?!!! smh....
It's not just the endings are bad, it's that I can't understand how a group of well educated and seasoned game making veterans could have approved this......
The most ridiculous part of the endings is that you can choose them. WHY? This game, from part 1 to 3, is all about choice and consequence. Yet, they let you play 120+ hours of choice and consequence to just present toyou three meaningless deus-ex-machina choices at the end. Whether you're Renegade, Paragon, killed everyone, saved everyone...
ALL your choices; Everything that made Mass Effect YOUR Mass Effect; Made Shepard YOUR Shepard.. flushed down the Citadel airshaft.
My Shep was a freaking teddybear! I loved the delusion that maybe -- just maybe! -- my Shepard had built the closest relationship with his friend Garrus and built the most romantic lovestory with Tali. But all of that.. all that dedication.. boils down to three overly retarded choices at the end. BioWare, WTF were you thinking!?
Let the Renegades blow everything to hell. Let my Paragon teddybear live happily ever after with his LI, with an occassional visit from Garrus. Man.. That would've been an ending.
Also, every choice involved the ME Relays exploding to hell. If you ask me, Shepard did an even worse job than the Reapers would have done.
The most ridiculous part of the endings is that you can choose them. WHY? This game, from part 1 to 3, is all about choice and consequence. Yet, they let you play 120+ hours of choice and consequence to just present toyou three meaningless deus-ex-machina choices at the end. Whether you're Renegade, Paragon, killed everyone, saved everyone...
ALL your choices; Everything that made Mass Effect YOUR Mass Effect; Made Shepard YOUR Shepard.. flushed down the Citadel airshaft.
My Shep was a freaking teddybear! I loved the delusion that maybe -- just maybe! -- my Shepard had built the closest relationship with his friend Garrus and built the most romantic lovestory with Tali. But all of that.. all that dedication.. boils down to three overly retarded choices at the end. BioWare, WTF were you thinking!?
Let the Renegades blow everything to hell. Let my Paragon teddybear live happily ever after with his LI, with an occassional visit from Garrus. Man.. That would've been an ending.
Also, every choice involved the ME Relays exploding to hell. If you ask me, Shepard did an even worse job than the Reapers would have done.
Sacrifice was never a theme in Mass Effect, not really. Defiance was always more important. Stealing the Normandy in mass effect 1, setting out to foil the collectors despite no assistance form the council in 2, taking on an impossible suicide mission and coming out the other end like a boss -- that's all defiance. Refusing to shut up, refusing to quietly go away, and refusing to give up when the situation seemed unwinnable.
Where is the sacrifice? Legion and mordin -- but it's possible that they died before me3 even started.
Shepard is not John Marston.
Ash or Kaiden.
I don't think it was sacrifice free, but it most definitely was not the main theme of them.
seeing as he just listed a good handful of sacrifices, I'd say it's a pretty strong theme, especially when shepard has vivid dreams about the guilt of the sacrifices, and shep talks with garrus about how to rationalize the sacrifices with numbers
But there is so much more defiance than sacrifice. Shepard talks about sacrificing with Garrus, but he also says he doesn't want to sacrifice. He WON'T sacrifice. And would you have really played through the entire series if you knew that the series would end the way it did, with Shepard's really lame sacrifice? Forced sacrifice? I wouldn't.
Agreed. And there is already so much sacrifice throughout the series that, frankly, Shepard deserves a break.
I agree. Before I have mentioned that. There is already much sacrifice in ME series. Begining with ME (Ash or Kaidan), ME2 (all those you couldn't save) and ME3: Mordin, Thane, Legion... I think this is enough.
I just can't believe they developed these endings, played them over and over and said "yea, this is exactly how it should be".....none of them discussed whether or not Shepard was being indoctrinated? None of them discussed "uh, so do we WANT the Mass Relays to be destroyed". None of them thought it ODD that Joker was running away from a mass relay explosion? with your crew on the ship? 2 of whom may have been running toward the Citadel with you?!!! smh....
It's not just the endings are bad, it's that I can't understand how a group of well educated and seasoned game making veterans could have approved this......
Im pretty sure many ppl in Bioware thought so BUT they are not the ones who decide. Im pretty sure along the line someone decided this ending is way it should be. Put yourself as a developing staff and you are developing this ending, you voice out your opinion and some person with decision power decided otherwise what can you do?
The most ridiculous part of the endings is that you can choose them. WHY? This game, from part 1 to 3, is all about choice and consequence. Yet, they let you play 120+ hours of choice and consequence to just present toyou three meaningless deus-ex-machina choices at the end. Whether you're Renegade, Paragon, killed everyone, saved everyone...
ALL your choices; Everything that made Mass Effect YOUR Mass Effect; Made Shepard YOUR Shepard.. flushed down the Citadel airshaft.
My Shep was a freaking teddybear! I loved the delusion that maybe -- just maybe! -- my Shepard had built the closest relationship with his friend Garrus and built the most romantic lovestory with Tali. But all of that.. all that dedication.. boils down to three overly retarded choices at the end. BioWare, WTF were you thinking!?
Let the Renegades blow everything to hell. Let my Paragon teddybear live happily ever after with his LI, with an occassional visit from Garrus. Man.. That would've been an ending.
Also, every choice involved the ME Relays exploding to hell. If you ask me, Shepard did an even worse job than the Reapers would have done.
Agreed. Your ending should be a sum total of the consequences of the choices you have made throughout the game(s) Not this consequence-free "choice" of what's your favorite primary color.
I've played through twice by now, and started a third one.
It's exceptional.
Putting the ultimate fight into Shepard's head was a stroke of genius.
Even if one doesn't support the Indoctrination Theory (a very solid interpretation can be found here ) it's obvious that the last sequence is not "really" happening the way it’s shown.
Because -
we have the dreamy GUI.
even taking considerable beating and scorching into account, Shepards are wearing the remnants of the N7 default armor, and not the ones you chose for them.
the Illusive Man forces you to shoot Anderson but there is no shot wound, no blood on Anderson. Given the amount of gore present in the game that strikes as odd.
There is enough to indicate this part is the attempt to finalize Shepard’s indoctrination.
Even considering that Shepard made it onto the Citadel in a trance-like state, what’s going on is still in Shepard’s head.
So the encounter with the Catalyst is taking place in Shepard’s head, too. Nothing we see is actually happening the way we see it. Opening the arms of the Citadel, the Crucible docking, is happening in Shepard’s mind.
What do we know of the Catalyst at that point? We know the Citadel is supposed to be the Catalyst because Vendetta tells us AFTER The Illusive Man hacked it.
Also, still in Shepard’s mind the sentence “I’m the Catalyst.” gets a whole different meaning.
What if Shepard is in fact the Catalyst? Or any other Organic who would have made it up? Could have been a Prothean if they weren’t defeated before they were able to build the Cruicible.
The Crucible is a Black Box. No one knows how it works or what it really does.
*If* Shepard is the Catalyst and has the final say in what can happen it doesn’t really matter how it happens.
For all we know the choices for Control and Synthesis could have been put in by The Illusive Man and/or the Reapers.
I go along with the Indoctrination Theory. Especially, as far as Control is concerned. You can’t control what is controlling you. And you can’t control what you don’t understand.
What if the Reapers themselves have to undergo a Cycle? And Synthesis is the means to end theirs?
At this point, regardless which solution Shepard chooses, it’s in Shepard’s mind, so everything we see is what Shepard is thinking. The end of the Reaper threat one way or the other. The dream/hope that Normandy and its crew get away.
Up to this point, this makes complete sense to me.
It’s a great ending with a couple of flaws.
There are not enough indicators to support anything beyond the bit with Anderson and the Illusive Man. We are still in Shepard’s mind that seems clear. Also, Shepard ends the Reaper threat one way or the other.
However, if we assume that Shepard is in fact the Catalyst and on some level communicating with the Crucible it makes sense again. But there is not enough to indicate if that is in fact happening.
Also, the solutions imply hugely different outcomes
Control: the Reapers win
Synthesis: Space magic with new DNA
Destruction: The cycleis broken
This should be reflected in the scene with the Stargazer after the Credits.
absolutly loved the ending, The sense of accomplisment i had once the credits started rolling. i dont understand everyones anger against the ending your team produced. starting tomorrow imgoing back to play ME1 and start Shepards mission all over again! thanks for the smaming game!
The ending was in no way representative of the choices we have been making since ME1, introduced a Deus Ex Machina, and a character whose absolutist logic is rendered invalid by the story you just played through. Not to mention the continuity breaks, plot holes, and nonsensical story dump. Also, this is the first time you can't argue the point in ME. You just sit there and accept the catalyst's obviously flawed logic, and then make one of 3 equally horrible choices that all have the same outcome. Bioware promised us radically different and varied endings that were directly dependent on the choices you had made since ME1. Casey Hudson even went so far as to state there is no simple "A, B, or C" choice. They then delivered an A, B and C choice that were causally disconnected from the story, and lore-wise, either destroy all life in the galaxy, or, at best, doom everyone on the fleet and destroy galactic civilization.
That is why people don't like the ending (Singular, not plural)
Honestly, Bioware, we don't even have to waste words on why the ending sucks. The mere fact that the majority of us have a miserable feeling in our gut -- like our first-born baby died in our arms -- is all the reason you need to properly look into this, maybe hire some psychologists, and get your fans multiple better endings.
Oh, and give the brain behind the original ending(s) some good thrashing!
Dear Bioware/EA. Mass Effect 3 was exceptional! The gameplay, the story, just the feel and emotional connection you get when playing the game. I want EVERYONE at Bioware to know that. Every Mass Effect game has been a masterpiece and i thank you for the many hours of it that i have enjoyed.
My favorite moments? Well there were alot of them. Its to hard to pick. The entire game was one giant epic moment. The entire game had the same feel as the suicide mission in ME2. It was incredible.
That said, i extremely dislike the ending(s). I respect the artists behind the game and thier right to create art as they see fit. That said i am also allowed to express my displeasure toward certain parts of that art. I feel like every ending completely went against the Mass Effect tradition of 'Just barely beating the odds, saving the world and living to tell the tale." Granted beating the odds is a very cliche ending. But i think its the one i personally would have chose. Or at least had the option to choose. One part that really bugged me in my first playthru was when i chose to destroy the reapers (sacraficing myself i might add) it cuts to the battle on Earth. The wave of destruction that vaporized raeper and human alike. It was like... cool i ended the cycle. I also just wiped out whatever was left of the galaxy to save. IDK. Im just baffled.
I guess i just would have wanted the clasic/cliche ME ending of beating the odds, saving the day, and then going to a really inspirational scene.
Other then that, i would have wanted Miranda to play a bigger role/not die/ect. She was to big a character in ME2 to get thrown under the rug the way she did. But i guess that can be said about alot of ME characters throughout the series. Just the first time it happened to a character i really liked. O well such is life.
So yeah Bioware, amazing game. I love it. Thank you for it. I will probably play another 10 playthrus of all 3 mass effects. Should you decide to make a Miranda as squademate DLC, or a classic mass effect cliche save the day and then go kick it with Garus on the Normandy i would be honored to buy them. lol
Thanks again. Anyone who disagrees with my opinions, feel free to flame/tear it to shreds. But i probably wont be returning to this thread to defend myself/give you the pleasure. Its late where i am and i just wanted to share my thoughts with bioware. I don't really care if anyone disagrees with me or my opinions.
Thank you a final time Bioware for the AMAZING ride. I look forward to more content in the near future that i will happilly buy. You are an amazing dev team. Most companies would not have even addressed the fans displeasure at the ending, that alone proves that you are a cut above the rest. You are and probably always will be one of my favorite game developers. Sorry for the small novel, like i said its late here, and i dont intend to proofread. lol
I realize that my emotions take hold of me on this forum. I felt inclined to add:
Mass Effect 3, 2 and 1 have brought me hours, no.. weeks of enjoyment. This fact alone was worth every single dime I spent on it.
However, what made ME special was the fact that the lore and the story allowed the person to lose himself in it EVEN when he/she wasn't playing the games or reading the books. I think I speak for most of us when I say that, and also that ME was, in short, not just an entertaining game.. but a daring dream for all of us who dare to speculate/fantasize about "life somewhere out there". The ME idea was simply that, and I dare say, plausible.
Thus PLEASE realize, Bioware, what it means for the fans to have some proper closure to a story -- a dream! -- that has become more than just a game.
That is why people don't like the ending (Singular, not plural)
That's why the after credit scene should reflect the choices. Otherwise, it does indeed feel like one ending. Even though the choices imply otherwise.
I could care less about the after credit scene, the ending's non-choice of a choice still has the same results for the galaxy. Reapers go down, relays explode. Failure was never a possibility and that removes all drama from the game, and also, from the moment the fleet jumps through the citadel, your choicese cease to be represented or hold any meaning. Where were the Rachni that were going to have a "Huge effect on the final battle" the Geth Primes, Salarian STG, Krogan, Batarian Fleet Remnants, Geth Fleet (I made peace between the quarians and geth, only quarians showed up for some reason)? Why introduce a giant Deus Ex Machina?
And the endings are all the same, I don't care what color the explosion was. Reapers stopped, beam goes out, relays explode, Normandy crash lands for no reason. You could have the same "5000 years" later or whatever scene, enough time passes, I can accept the same post-credits scene for different endings. But there were no different endings, just a couple of nearly-identical cinematics, and a "Be Sure to Drink Your Ovaltine" message from EA.
I hope they dont give us just closure for the current endings. That would be terrible. they need to lop off the last 15 minutes of the game and give us something that makes sense.
Any closure that comes after the current endings would still be terrible.
This. If Bioware has any intention of trying to add more BS to the dung heap that was flung at me at the end of the game then I'm done. Unless it's changed, and not just "clearified" then I'm 100% done with anything the company makes. They can keep their sequels, DLC and anything else unless they fix this. The current ending is unacceptable, no matter how much you add to it.
Bioware - any chance you could start taking part in this discussion you mentioned in the first post of this thread. Whilst there have been some people going to far, the vast majority of the 441 (and counting) pages here (and in other threads) is filled with the constructive critisism you were asking for.
Any chance you could comment on what has been brought up - without dodging the issue and ignoring the points we are making (which is what has happened in all of the PR statements thus far).
This discussion would be appreciated and a big step forward.
Alright. I've had some time to calm down and start replaying the series from the beginning to blow off some steam.
I actually want to provide constructive information this time ;
What I didn't have a problem with about the ending: Everything that wasn't a plot hole.
I want to stress the fact that the ending wasn't really the problem for me, it was the related plot holes and the short epilogue. This is the main cause of everyone's dissatisfaction, the feeling that none of my choices really mattered in the end other than a number on the war terminal.
You know when you're watching a movie and it seems like it's going to go somewhere but it doesn't? That's what happened after Shepard was nearly incinerated by the giant laser during the last part of the Earth campaign. It's really symbolic of what happened to the plot. Everything up to that point, maybe even a little bit afterwards was wonderful, epic, gripping, etc.,
...but did the company really want to cut off the franchise in this manner? The whole thing feels like the quickest solution that was decided on at a board meeting to meet a deadline. That's only my suspicion, but it really feels that way.
This series owes its success to elements that were thrown in the garbage at the very last possible second of the experience. Complex plot consistency and character development were abandoned in exchange for a choice of three colors of explosions, a lazily written epilogue, and the introduction of a nameless old man and boy that no one in their right mind would care about. The ending has all the interactivity of a game based off of a movie, and all of us find it very insulting.
My creative writing professor likes to say something along the lines of, "an audience will believe the impossible, but they will not believe the improbable." We all know the basic elements to a story. Exposition, rising action, climax, and resolution. Only the last part doesn't fit in this story and we want it gone, fixed, whatever. I watch this ending and think, "Who did this and what were they thinking?" I react this way because I was led to believe it would be so much more. I believed that because I have experienced the joy of this series and I reject the awful quality of this one part, this one integral piece of the puzzle that does not fit at all.
If I could address the person responsible for this, I would tell them that they are capable of so much more. I know it, you know it, all the true gamers who shell out hundreds of dollars apiece for your games and merchandise know it.
Personally, I would suggest adding more character to the ending. Ideally, characters that we know and love, not some random senile old man and his idiot grandson. Including Joker in what little there was was a start, but that's all it was. I can't be expected to accept that that was it. He simply walks out of the ship and looks around. Great. I don't care. Give me more. If it's a little, let it be of quality. If it's a lot, let it be related to our choices. If not, give us something else.
The bottom line is, everyone's mad except for the people that are fooling themselves. I think something went wrong, don't you? I am fighting for the cause of fixing this, and I am more passionate about it that I am about fighting for something like human rights or freedoms because I want to believe in the world of Mass Effect more than the harshness of this real one we live in. That's what I'm telling myself, anyway. I don't normally post in forums, let alone for causes. . I hope this reaches whoever I wrote it for, thanks for your time if it does.
Forbes have quite a few newish articles up on their site pertaining to Mass Effect 3.
This one is the male voice actor for Shep talking about the endings. Has to be careful what he says, but it was interesting: http://www.forbes.co...ending-and-dlc/
Let's see, what part i liked about the end of Me3......Sheppard death, it's something that Sheppard would do and he has done. The rest is quinte wrong if not insignificant.
First of all the Normandy thing, i can't find a plausible reason for it except the treason of the crew and the leave of the battle,so far i know of the mass effect universe they simply escaped from the battle, since the only possible cause that put Normandy in the line of the Mass Relay beam is that they actively engaged it, and the only reason to do that is to leave the system. Even so, that don't explain how Kaidan that was my only beloved man, that less than 1 hour earlyer trust me with ethernal love, and was to my side in the final run survived the Reaper attack, boarded the Normandy leaving me to die alone, did he lied to me? He simply betrayed me, he run away and in the end he will applily live in a new word with Thrainor or any other girl of the normandy crew.
And what about the rest of the alliance fleet, alien peple trapped for the times in the solar system with an Earth unable to sustain her own life, aliens that cant eat human food and that can only wait to die starved.
I dont' think the death of sheppard where wrong in the end but, what about the rest off the people we met? How about Quarina? How about Krogan? The Korgan had a 10 mt statue in the Citadel as memorial of the war of Racni, Sheppard don't deseserve a memorial for saving the galaxy? How i forgont there's no one to remeber, the explosion of the MassRelay destroyed the systems that hosts them so good by Thessia, bye bye Tuchanka...was a pleasur Sur-Kesh, and in the end the Earth....so long my home.
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