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[PuppiesOfDeath2]

I am reposting my comments on the Indoctrination Theory here in case Bioware is listening.  I wanted to share my thoughts on the ending, which are at the end of this post:

It appears that the "hardest ending to achieve" (the one that requires
the most War Assets) is the one that allows Shepard to survive and
requires the Renegade (kill the Reapers and Spaceboy) option.  That
supports the Indoctrination Theory it would seem.  Tell me if I am wrong
about that.  I have not tried to play the game poorly to find out but I
think that this is the suggestion in the Collectors Edition guide.

Also,
when Shepard "ascends" to meet Spaceboy for the first time, his "body"
remains on the ground, below the white platform carrying him upward from
the control panel on the Citadel.  This is quite clear and suggests
some disembodied part of Shepard is being lifted up.  Now that doesn't
necessarily support the Indoctrination Theory as there would be no need
to have an out of body experience if you were already in a dream (a
"dream within a dream," although I suppose the IT theorists would argue
that is itself part of the Reapers' deception).  [The phrase reminds me
of the minister's speech on "marriage" in The Princess Bride" which was
hilarious, but now my head is hurting.]

I really liked this game
and I appreciate the art of the ending.  The Crucible putting the stem
on the Citadel flower to pollinate the galaxy with Shepard.  The name of
our hero as a metaphor.  Adam and Eva.  It is creative. 

What I
didn't like is that it makes the game less replayable for the same
reasons Mass Effect 2 was so replayable.  The whole experience is about
making hard decisions that forge a bond with your closest allies,
friends and teammates.  It may be true in life that, at the end, we are
all just alone to face whatever demons or struggles the end brings.  But
people loved this franchise for the escape of fighting against
impossible odds with your closest friends.  And if you were smart about
it and stuck together you could win.  If you cared enough, together you
could do more than you could ever accomplish alone.

I just found
the ending gave all of that away.  You can experience all of the
tribulation and isolation you want without ever picking up an XBox
controller.  This franchise gave us the chance to find friends, embrace
their strengths and weaknesses, bring them together and do something
righteous.  The ending lacked those things.  And that makes the game
less replayable.  Because now I know, that no matter how much I struggle
over the choices in the war and do everything for and with my friends,
at the end, I am alone.

[Motherlander]

Thanatos144 wrote...

There is a lot of opionon here whether it is valid or not is up to the reader. I didnt say the thread repasents the minority I said after the first few pages it is the minority keeping it alive. Yes I am one of them I think there should be conterpoints....Of course sonce i dont fall in step with all the rageaholics I am called a troll....I do finde that ironic though.

Yes, it is ironic that those supporting the ending are regarded as trolls.

As you say counterpoints are necessary in order to assess the validity of the various arguments and t get a feel for why people truly like or do not like the endings.

The truth is that there are trolls ( amd I am not saying you are one by any means) and band-wagon jumpers on boths sides.

To me at least, it would appear that those who dislike the endings have a better argument. Most people who dislike the endings have specific reasons.

Those who like the ending have expressed their opinion, which is valid and fair. But I have not seen any real argument to counter the specific negative criticisms of the ending which I find convincing beyond the fact that the individual just likes it or that the problems are not important to them.

The other issue is that we ending haters do not really understand why the ending-likers want to insist on NOT providing an alternative. In the end, no one will be forced to download the new DLC if one is ever released. Anyone can keep the vanilla ending if they want.

As for a small group of people keeping the thread alive. Well, you may be right. I haven't kept track of who is posting myself. But even that sends a message to some extent because it shows there is strength of feeling that goes deeper than just posting once and then going away.

Whether it will have an impact or not is another matter.

[Jassu1979]

There have been many wonderful moments throughout ME3, so it's virtually impossible to pick just one.

Personally, I was quite touched by Thane's death scene, where Shepard suddenly realizes that the prayer she read out wasn't for the dying drell, but for her. I'm not a religious person, but the sentiment expressed there was just sublime.

It's scenes like this that make me wonder how the authors could fail so spectacularly in the final five minutes. Can the same people who came up with the reconciliation between the geth and the quarians really be responsible for the star child's half-baked circular logic about synthetics and organics never being able to coexist? Can the same people who wrote such a beautiful scene as Mordin's sacrifice really turn to such a cheap deus ex machina as multi-colored doors, without having Shepard even attempt to find another way?

[Thanatos144]

Motherlander wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

There is a lot of opionon here whether it is valid or not is up to the reader. I didnt say the thread repasents the minority I said after the first few pages it is the minority keeping it alive. Yes I am one of them I think there should be conterpoints....Of course sonce i dont fall in step with all the rageaholics I am called a troll....I do finde that ironic though.

Yes, it is ironic that those supporting the ending are regarded as trolls.

As you say counterpoints are necessary in order to assess the validity of the various arguments and t get a feel for why people truly like or do not like the endings.

The truth is that there are trolls ( amd I am not saying you are one by any means) and band-wagon jumpers on boths sides.

To me at least, it would appear that those who dislike the endings have a better argument. Most people who dislike the endings have specific reasons.

Those who like the ending have expressed their opinion, which is valid and fair. But I have not seen any real argument to counter the specific negative criticisms of the ending which I find convincing beyond the fact that the individual just likes it or that the problems are not important to them.

The other issue is that we ending haters do not really understand why the ending-likers want to insist on NOT providing an alternative. In the end, no one will be forced to download the new DLC if one is ever released. Anyone can keep the vanilla ending if they want.

As for a small group of people keeping the thread alive. Well, you may be right. I haven't kept track of who is posting myself. But even that sends a message to some extent because it shows there is strength of feeling that goes deeper than just posting once and then going away.

Whether it will have an impact or not is another matter.

I have valid reasons for likeing the ending....Why? Cause it makes complete sense and actually follows the lore of the game. I will admit it annoys me to no end to hear everyone call the catalyst a space boy or star boy when it is a AI and of all things thats is the mnost logical. It isnt that the endings dont make sense cause they really do. It is that people just dont like them. They should be at least honest about it.

I would never say BW should make new content and if that means diffrent endings I wouldnt turn my nose up cause I love the game so why would I want more of it? But if they never make a diffrent ending I still love the game.  I am not demanding things I am not entitaled to. Because I bought a game does not give me the right to demand the story go as I say.

[Moorningstaar]

KadivyaSky wrote...

The wonderful storytelling in 99% of ME3 was ruined entirely by its last few minutes (ie. pseudo end thing that we were given). There were highlights, of course, but they were drowned out by how horrid the ending(s?) really was. I'm still hoping that a free DLC is incoming that will continue the story after whatever dream Shepard had after Kai Leng was killed. Someone wake Shepard up and send him/her back into the fight!

Hell yeah that's EXACTLY it!!!!

[Moorningstaar]

Thanatos144 wrote...

Motherlander wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

There is a lot of opionon here whether it is valid or not is up to the reader. I didnt say the thread repasents the minority I said after the first few pages it is the minority keeping it alive. Yes I am one of them I think there should be conterpoints....Of course sonce i dont fall in step with all the rageaholics I am called a troll....I do finde that ironic though.

Yes, it is ironic that those supporting the ending are regarded as trolls.

As you say counterpoints are necessary in order to assess the validity of the various arguments and t get a feel for why people truly like or do not like the endings.

The truth is that there are trolls ( amd I am not saying you are one by any means) and band-wagon jumpers on boths sides.

To me at least, it would appear that those who dislike the endings have a better argument. Most people who dislike the endings have specific reasons.

Those who like the ending have expressed their opinion, which is valid and fair. But I have not seen any real argument to counter the specific negative criticisms of the ending which I find convincing beyond the fact that the individual just likes it or that the problems are not important to them.

The other issue is that we ending haters do not really understand why the ending-likers want to insist on NOT providing an alternative. In the end, no one will be forced to download the new DLC if one is ever released. Anyone can keep the vanilla ending if they want.

As for a small group of people keeping the thread alive. Well, you may be right. I haven't kept track of who is posting myself. But even that sends a message to some extent because it shows there is strength of feeling that goes deeper than just posting once and then going away.

Whether it will have an impact or not is another matter.

I have valid reasons for likeing the ending....Why? Cause it makes complete sense and actually follows the lore of the game. I will admit it annoys me to no end to hear everyone call the catalyst a space boy or star boy when it is a AI and of all things thats is the mnost logical. It isnt that the endings dont make sense cause they really do. It is that people just dont like them. They should be at least honest about it.

I would never say BW should make new content and if that means diffrent endings I wouldnt turn my nose up cause I love the game so why would I want more of it? But if they never make a diffrent ending I still love the game.  I am not demanding things I am not entitaled to. Because I bought a game does not give me the right to demand the story go as I say.

I would like to point out that you are guilty of exactly what they are saying about those that like the ending.  Great, you say it makes sense to you.  EXPLAIN IT!  If you can't it's not that you understand or that these things make sense, its just that it was too much effort for you to look at this analytically.  If you want a point by point check the ME3 campaign ending feedback thread.  Myself and others have addressed all the myriad inconsistencies rationalizations and bad plot ideas realized in the ending.  Give us specifics that clear up our questions.  Don't just keep repeating it makes sense.  That is a mantra not a point.

[spacehamsterZH]

Motherlander wrote...

Those who like the ending have expressed their opinion, which is valid and fair. But I have not seen any real argument to counter the specific negative criticisms of the ending which I find convincing beyond the fact that the individual just likes it or that the problems are not important to them.

That really depends on what criticisms you're talking about, though. Some of them are based on logic, others are a matter of preference.

The observation that the ending creates a number of unexplainable plot holes is a matter of logic. Whether or not this is a valid criticism can pretty much be resolved objectively, and at this point, given that I've seen nothing coming even close to a refutation, I'd say the debate's over and the critics are right. Logically, the ending doesn't mesh with many things that have come before.

On the other hand, the question whether it's a betrayal in terms of the overall themes of the trilogy comes down to individual interpretation. People who hate the ending based on this claim, for example, that Mass Effect was always about victory through standing together in the face of seemingly impossible odds. If that's your interpretation of Mass Effect, you'll hate the ending with or without plotholes, but it's really just that - an interpretation. And interpretations are always debatable.

Then there's those who wanted a happy ending for purely emotional reasons, and that's just personal preference. It's fine to say, that's what I wanted so I don't like what I got - nobody can tell you you're wrong. But nobody can really tell you you're right either, it's just how you feel. There's nothing to debate there.

And the whole thing about closure is kind of a mix of both. It's objectively observable that we basically have no idea what happened to anyone and everything is very vague. Whether that's a bad thing comes down to individual preference again. Some people like vague endings, others don't.

Long story short, the big problem to me is that people have many different problems with the ending, and whatever Bioware does, they won't be able to address all of it.

[Motherlander]

[quote]Thanatos144 wrote...

[/quote] I have valid reasons for likeing the ending....Why? Cause it makes complete sense and actually follows the lore of the game. I will admit it annoys me to no end to hear everyone call the catalyst a space boy or star boy when it is a AI and of all things thats is the mnost logical. It isnt that the endings dont make sense cause they really do. It is that people just dont like them. They should be at least honest about it.
[/quote]

That is fair enough. If you consider them to be complete and followt the lore of the game then I respect that. I don't understand it, and don't want to argue about it or anything. But i respect it.

I don't think the ending is consistent with the lore or the atmosphere of the game in general. I persoanally feel the Catalyst as presented did not fit with the rest of the game as he was a new character only introduced at the very end. But if you think differently, that is fair enough. Your perception is just different from mine.

Each person can cetainly argue that each ending makes sense and provide their interpretation. But that is the problem. Because we receive no explanantion of the consequences of the three main endings, we are left to invent our own outcome. To me this is inconsistent when Bioware have always explained consequences and outcomes pretty well.

So what it really comes down to is if you are prepared to invent your own consequences and be happy with the outome. If you are happy with this, then you may like the ending.

But if you want more explanation and perhaps some more alternatives, then many like myself will not be happy. 

[Alex_Sunshine]

Thanks Bioware for this ending. I've never been so much emotional playing with a Games.
Now, I only ask you to expand this end, through DLC if you want, why not!
So many things were left unanswered. A "final movie" of just three minutes, does not do justice to the best trilogy ever conceived!
Please, do something! I have a terrible void!

Modifié par Alex_Sunshine, 31 mars 2012 - 02:14 .

[dweomer]

I just 'registered' the game, so my point of view is new here.

The ending was good, but an abject failure for Mass Effect. There is no reward for making any choices. Your choices throughout the series have almost zero effect on the ending.

I saved Anderson from the Illusive Man, destroyed the Reapers, and saw the cutscene where Shepard takes a breath in the rubble. WTF? Did he make it somehow?

The problem with the ending is the choice you make (control, synthesis, destruction) is immaterial, because in *all* choices the mass relays are destroyed and as far as the course of galactic civilization this has a much greater effect than the fate of the Reapers.

Where is the choice to *not* use the Crucible, to *not* destroy the mass relays?

It really felt like the choice at the very end was inconsequential because no matter what you choose, the mass relays are destroyed, Joker is on the jungle planet, and things basically end up the same.

[Motherlander]

spacehamsterZH wrote...

Long story short, the big problem to me is that people have many different problems with the ending, and whatever Bioware does, they won't be able to address all of it.

I can't argue with anything you have said. And your last sentence above is definately true. But I do think Bioware created this mess themselves by raising expectations.

[Archonsg]

I would love to be the fly on the wall during one of their meetings when results of our statistics on how much we have been playing, Single as well as multi-player mode gets shown to the bean counters at EA. How many people played 6 hour stretches or more before completing the single player campaign, how many playing their second or more play-through, how many hours on their second run and how many just playing multi-player mode after completion of just one run.

Because, this is the reason why Bioware is stalling for time.
Not to let others"experience" the game but to see just what people are doing with the game. Get statistics. X number of people still playing single player campaign and you have potential DLC sales, x number not playing = red light on DLC content.

I'd be willing to bet that most who have completed the single player campaign are just messing around with multi-player, waiting on (if you ate like me) alternative endings DLC and not more "middle" content to "explain" The Ending.

Would be really interesting indeed to be that fly a week or so after PAX.

[dweomer]

Also, where is the exposition on the Illusive Man? His character deserved some explanation. I kept waiting for my choices in dealing with he and Cerberus, and my relationship with the Illusive Man to matter, but it never did.

[Motherlander]

@Archonsg - What you have said occurs to me too.

And these statistics will be the telling factor. If the stats say there loads of people are happily belting through a 2nd and 3d playthrough, then not much will be done. If the stats are way poorer than ME2, then it will give them food for thought. only they will know.

[dweomer]

Because, this is the reason why Bioware is stalling for time.
Not to let others"experience" the game but to see just what people are doing with the game. Get statistics. X number of people still playing single player campaign and you have potential DLC sales, x number not playing = red light on DLC content.

I'd be willing to bet that most who have completed the single player campaign are just messing around with multi-player, waiting on (if you ate like me) alternative endings DLC and not more "middle" content to "explain" The Ending.

I actually found some urban mythology here on the forums saying that if your galactic readiness were up, so your overall military strength were high enough, you would get different (better) endings.

So I played the multiplayer.

Long story short, the multiplayer is a lot of fun, good work!  It's too bad they did not get it right with the ending for the actual game, Mass Effect 3.

[Biotic_Warlock]

the ending should have been that the space hamster killed the reapers.

[Rallycobra]

Hats off to the Bioware Team. I played all three games, and I really enjoyed the series. I'm 40, and have been playing computer/video games all my life. This series is up there with the best of them.

I thought the ending was reasonable, but maybe I got it wrong? My interpretation was that Shephard was injuried by the red beam at the end. As he lay dying on the ground, he had a dream about getting into the citidel and stopping the reapers. He then saw his friends find peace and happiness in 'heaven'. Then the camera cut back to Shepard and he a last heaving breath. (http://en.wikipedia....kes_respiration I chose the destroy option and had a high EMS)

I figured the reapers won this cycle and the old man telling the story was from a future cycle.

I haven't read through all 500 pages, didn't anyone else think that Shepard was unable to stop the reapers?

[KitaSaturnyne]

In terms of the ending, all I'd like to see is the questions I've put forth in this post addressed. At least, for a start.

It'd be great to see what happens with all the people you affect, big and small, from the people of Zhu's Hope to the Geth learning to live with the Quarians.

Otherwise, I'm very pleased with this game and series, and am hoping for a new, more satisfying ending to an otherwise satisfying story experience. Thank you for all your hard work.

[Versidious]

dweomer wrote...

Because, this is the reason why Bioware is stalling for time.
Not to let others"experience" the game but to see just what people are doing with the game. Get statistics. X number of people still playing single player campaign and you have potential DLC sales, x number not playing = red light on DLC content.

I'd be willing to bet that most who have completed the single player campaign are just messing around with multi-player, waiting on (if you ate like me) alternative endings DLC and not more "middle" content to "explain" The Ending.

I actually found some urban mythology here on the forums saying that if your galactic readiness were up, so your overall military strength were high enough, you would get different (better) endings.

So I played the multiplayer.

Long story short, the multiplayer is a lot of fun, good work!  It's too bad they did not get it right with the ending for the actual game, Mass Effect 3.

'Tis not urban mythology. To get the 'best' ending, where Shepard survives, you need more than 5000 Galactic readiness, which can only currently be achieved by playing multiplayer (Though I've heard that importing an ME3 character back to the beginning can also give you this, I've not done this, so cannot verify). In addition, the options cn be 'bad' in some cases, eg Earth can be destroyed by the red option, etc. Synthesis is supposed to be the 'ideal' ending.

[Benchpress610]

Here come the trolls again. To paraphrase one of my favorite movies: “Those trolls are out there. They can’t be reason with. They can’t be bargain with. They absolutely won’t stop until this thread is locked.”

The best way to deal with these people is just ignore them

[chevyguy87]

Motherlander wrote...

Each person can cetainly argue that each ending makes sense and provide their interpretation. But that is the problem. Because we receive no explanantion of the consequences of the three main endings, we are left to invent our own outcome. To me this is inconsistent when Bioware have always explained consequences and outcomes pretty well.

That statement pretty much sums up the bulk of the arguments regarding this fiasco. I absolutely despise when games and movies choose this route. I for one do not like seeing such a beautiful story that spans three games and 5 plus years being reduced to a question mark. The fact that after an epic adventure such as Mass Effect I am now left to ponder what could have been or how it could have played out differently leaves me with a sense of unease. 

I also agree with you on how it lacks in consistancy. When i first purchased Mass Effect the month it came out, I had no clue about anything that was going on in the world. So I turned to the Codex and it cleared up almost every question I initially had. To see the ending of the series and how it plays out puts me in the exact same position I was in when first picking up Mass Effect. It left me confused and wanting an explanation to what it is I had just witnessed. 

[Dakota Strider]

Thanatos144 wrote...

over 500 pages............................most by the same people saying the same thing. If I was Bioware I wouldnt read all this ether. All they need is the first 10 pages to get the gist.......The rest is just the minority continuing the rant. I would love more content but I dont demand it like I am owed something I am not.

Now that is arrogance.  Myself, I just bought the game a week ago.  Finished it two days ago.  For the first time made my way to the forums last night, to see if I was the only one that felt dissatisfied with the results.  Found out that there were hundreds if not thousands that were voicing there opinions in different formats.  Yet, Thanatos, and others of his ilk would dismiss us all as a minority.  Worse yet, for those of us that have just begun to voice our opinions, he would tell Bioware that they do not even need to listen to us, since our opinions do not matter, since we were not around to make a post on the first 10 pages of the forum.

I can form an opinion on you Thanatos144, that has more basis in fact than the one you offered:  Based on the Bioware games you show yourself registered to, and based on your comments, I would say you belong to the group of casual gamers, that are Johny-come-latelys to the rpg scene, and thus have no idea what a true rpg should be.  You are happy with blowing things up, and shooting things as ways to solve every problem.  Your idea of role play, is watching cut scene after cut scene, and letting the director of the game make every decision for you.  It is because Bioware has started to cater to players like yourself, that their proud reputation as the best RPG creator in gaming has suffered over the last few years.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 31 mars 2012 - 02:54 .

[Benchpress610]

Dakota Strider wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

over 500 pages............................most by the same people saying the same thing. If I was Bioware I wouldnt read all this ether. All they need is the first 10 pages to get the gist.......The rest is just the minority continuing the rant. I would love more content but I dont demand it like I am owed something I am not.

Now that is arrogance.  Myself, I just bought the game a week ago.  Finished it two days ago.  For the first time made my way to the forums last night, to see if I was the only one that felt dissatisfied with the results.  Found out that there were hundreds if not thousands that were voicing there opinions in different formats.  Yet, Thanatos, and others of his ilk would dismiss us all as a minority.  Worse yet, for those of us that have just begun to voice our opinions, he would tell Bioware that they do not even need to listen to us, since our opinions do not matter, since we were not around to make a post on the first 10 pages of the forum.

I can form an opinion on you Thanatos144, that has more basis in fact than the one you offered:  Based on the Bioware games you show yourself registered to, and based on your comments, I would say you are belong to the group of casual gamers, that are Johny-come-latelys to the rpg scene, and thus have no idea what a true rpg should be.  You are happy with blowing things up, and shooting things as ways to solve every problem.  Your idea of role play, is watching cut scene after cut scene, and letting the director of the game make every decision for you.  It is because Bioware has started to cater to players like yourself, that their proud reputation as the best RPG creator in gaming has suffered over the last few years.

He's been trolling this thread for days. Just ignore him.

[garytwine]

You know, I've seen more than a few people defending the endings. Saying they liked them not for any specific reason. They just liked them, and then they moan about all of us who don't like the endings.

Most of us have very specific reasons why we don't like the endings. We list them, talk about them between ourselves and make YouTube videos about them showing how the ending makes little sense and are full of plot holes.

We don't automatically try to cause trouble with those that like the endings. We don't call them whiners, cry babies or entitled. They do to us though a hell of a lot though it seems.

And you know what... I've yet to see a SINGLE YouTube video explaining why the ending is so great. Why the ending makes complete sense. Why the ending doesn't need improving.

Modifié par garytwine, 31 mars 2012 - 03:00 .

[Biotic_Warlock]

Versidious wrote...

dweomer wrote...

Because, this is the reason why Bioware is stalling for time.
Not to let others"experience" the game but to see just what people are doing with the game. Get statistics. X number of people still playing single player campaign and you have potential DLC sales, x number not playing = red light on DLC content.

I'd be willing to bet that most who have completed the single player campaign are just messing around with multi-player, waiting on (if you ate like me) alternative endings DLC and not more "middle" content to "explain" The Ending.

I actually found some urban mythology here on the forums saying that if your galactic readiness were up, so your overall military strength were high enough, you would get different (better) endings.

So I played the multiplayer.

Long story short, the multiplayer is a lot of fun, good work!  It's too bad they did not get it right with the ending for the actual game, Mass Effect 3.

'Tis not urban mythology. To get the 'best' ending, where Shepard survives, you need more than 5000 Galactic readiness, which can only currently be achieved by playing multiplayer (Though I've heard that importing an ME3 character back to the beginning can also give you this, I've not done this, so cannot verify). In addition, the options cn be 'bad' in some cases, eg Earth can be destroyed by the red option, etc. Synthesis is supposed to be the 'ideal' ending.

Actually it appears that with synthesis, if your effective military strengh is too low then synthesis would be pointless since nearly everything is dead anyway, so it's difficult to say if one ending if better than another.