23455 réponses à ce sujet

[Jordan_Rannoch]

trust me i'm listening i wanted a freaken wedding scene.

[Jordan_Rannoch]

I wanted at least one of the endings to be a wedding. Where Shepard is on Rannoch and Tali is wearing a wedding dress without her suit and I get to see her beautiful face coming down that ile. Garrus my best man tells me I saved the galaxy and I deserve this one special moment. Tali makes it to the place where she stands and the Geth Preist tells Shepard that he may kiss the Bride. Then we finally get to see Shepard kissing Tali on her Quarian lips. That was a ending I wanted to see.

Modifié par Jordan_Rannoch, 05 avril 2012 - 11:22 .

[FrenchiVIII]

Just be sure that the conversation with the Star Child makes sense and give us a REAL epilogue, not only coloured explosions and stranded normandy. we want to know what happened to the rest of the galaxy, what are the consequences of our choice(s)!

... will be great also a real confrontation with the illusive man, maybe while it's "directly controlled" by the harbringer himself so we can dispose of them both (just like saren-sovereign in mass effect 1).

[luci90]

Jordan_Rannoch wrote...

I wanted at least one of the endings to be a wedding. Where Shepard is on Rannoch and Tali is wearing a wedding dress without her suit and I get to see her beautiful face coming down that ile. Garrus my best man tells me I saved the galaxy and I deserve this one special moment. Tali makes it to the place where she stands and the Geth Preist tells Shepard that he may kiss the Bride. Then we finally get to see Shepard kissing Tali on her Quarian lips. That was a ending I wanted to see and If you all want to see it too. We all need to tell Bioware before that DLC comes out.

I would have liked that.

Doubt I'll see it though.

[Jordan_Rannoch]

Yeah, I doubt it too.

[SimonM72]

Dr8Jones wrote...

MonteZ34 wrote...

Well, it was a fun ride Bioware, until ME3. Your choice to side with your writing team is of course all yours to make.

I will also be making a choice. I will no longer purchase your product. I will rent your games or buy them used. Either way, you won't see a dime from myself. You've completely broken faith with your fan base and now you will reap the rewards of doing so. I enjoyed ME1 and ME2, but after DA2 and ME3 you no longer have my faith or trust as a company and have joined the ranks of any other development studio. Bioware as a brand used to mean top notch games and storytelling, but now it is synonymous with mediocrity and rushing product for money.

Thanks for the fun, I just wish that it hadn't ended on such a sour note.

-An ex-loyal customer

+1

T-Zero wrote...

 Dear Bioware,

I've promised elsewhere to remain quiet until the summer dlc arrives.  I will abide by this, but I must make a final plea for my own sake of mind.

This "extended and clarified ending" you are making feels like an insult.  You have said that you would listen to your fans, but somehow you've either missed or willfully ignored the fact that the vast majority of us who have come to you have said that "clarification" is not needed. Pretending that we simply didn't "get it" is tantamount to calling us unintelligent and ignorant.  It's as if you're saying, "Oh, We understand that the ending was a bit much for you all to comprehend, so we're going to explain it... very... slowly..."  

The sheer... hubris of your response to our feedback casts your relationship with us, and our relationship with you, into a new and unflattering light.

You speak of artistic integrity as if it were a shield you could hide behind, as you ignore criticism and outrage from your fans, your customers, who have said to you over and over again that the climax to the ME titles was, simply and straightly put, terrible and unworthy of the franchise.  It was without artistic merit since it was untrue to the form of the art employed.  My suggestion is that you take the time and put in the effort to understand why we say this... because thus far you have provided proof of your own ignorance in the matter of this work of art, of why we find exception with it.


I have been a fan of yours for over 10 years.  I have bought title after title from you.  I have praised the artistic value of your work.  And I am now saying, what you have given us is without merit.  The endings of Mass Effect 3 are without value, without worth from an artistic standpoint.  To say you will "clarify" them is an insult to your fans.  I implore you, do the right thing;  alter them.  Rework them.  Do not give us a few new cutscenes and text entries.   Read through the volumes we have written on why the endings cannot work, why they do not have the value you seem to think they do.  And then reimagine the endings, with those criticisms in mind.  Do it for us, and do it for yourselves.  You should be better than this. 

Well said both of you.

I feel these posts sum up well my exasperation with Bioware's attitude.  If after all this feedback Bioware are still not interested in honouring their pre-release promises, that I in good faith bought the game on, then I give up.
Mark my words, I will remember this Bioware and will avoid all further EA / Bioware titles from here-on-in.
I choose my words carefully when I say I am absolutely disgusted at your business practices and behaviour.

Casey Hudson, Mike Gamble and Mac Walters you outright lied about the ending content being flexible and drawing from our choices made over the trilogy.
Dr. Ray Muzyka, since 2008 and your acendancy up to the EA top-brass, clearly you have forgotten what made Bioware great in the first place and instead of using your position at EA to help secure a proper ending for the franchise, one that honours your colleague's pre-release promises to your consumers - you've just dug your heels in re: Casey and Mac's artistic integrity.
All and every one of you should hang your heads, the end product you shipped is riddled with incompetantly written plot holes, the community has helped both list them and also offer a resolution in further DLC such as the Indocrination Theory and yet still, you are apparently either too proud or too stupid to recognise the importance of maintaining a sense of hope and of our decision's consequences in the trilogy.

If you consider the above a personal attack, fine.  You are welcome to ban me as this is my likely my last post on the Bioware forums as I'm completely spent of all hope and of the community ever getting through to you.
What a terrible waste of potential, you've taken the most promising Sci-Fi IP since StarWars™ and completely flushed it down the toilet.
Don't say "we believe in the ending" because the truth is more akin to; 'Casey and Mac are too proud to admit their failure after letting their egos run away with themselves and after cutting out the rest of the writing team and penning this total crap behind closed doors'.

Truely, what a great shame you were too proud to really listen.  Unfortunately the rammifications of which you will be reaping in the future I assure you.

Never in a million years did I ever think I'd feel this way about Mass Effect™, I've truely loved my journey over the last five years, but alas I personally feel the trilogy's replayability is completely destroyed.  What a shame.

Goodbye.

Modifié par SimonM72, 05 avril 2012 - 11:31 .

[paynesgrey]

Yes, Bioware was listening, they just really don't care. They've made their sales with an unfinished product and are going to so generously patch some of the cutscene holes rather than provide an array of endings worthy of the franchise.

Bioware now equals the Uwe Boll of gaming.

[Jordan_Rannoch]

YEAH!!! I support OrangeLazarus86 on that.

[Gibsn]

So can when does this PR thread get unstickied? You already won.

[luci90]

Jordan_Rannoch wrote...

Yeah, I doubt it too.

I'd tell you to keep hope for it alive, but that really didn't work out well for us here.

Modifié par luci90, 05 avril 2012 - 11:32 .

[Dunga780]

Dear Bioware,
I'm sorry it's come to this, but we just aren't working out. I'm thankful for the times we've shared but it has to come to an end. It's not me, it's you. You aren't who I thought you were. It is only now, after five years of being with you that I see the truth. You never intended for a happy ending. I'm afraid that we are just too different. I know this is hard, but we should face the truth. Your "artistic choices" just can't satisfy me like other developers. Please don't call me. It's better this way.

[RealStyli]

Norrin_Radd wrote...

Using terms like Deus ex machina really says a lot about how little you guys took from the dialogs with the Reapers and the Prothean VI. True, they did not spell out every little detail. I grant you that, but it does not take much imagination to consider what happened? And why it happened?

RealStyli, I appreciate your reply, and it definitely helps me realize there are some normal people in this crowd. I can explain my interpretation of the ending, and what it means for the future of this franchise. I am not saying it is definitely what happened, it's just where my mind filled in the blanks. The reason I would have avoided this under normal circumstances, is that it is incredibly nerdy to go this in depth for an argument about a sci-fi story. But, oh well. For me, it's not so much how it ended, as it is the fiction itself.

The thing I think most people conveniently forget is that a human being lives in a time scale of around 100 years. A Reaper lives in time scales of beyond 50000 years. For whatever reason the Reapers snuff out all advanced life at 50000 years, you can rest assured that it is for a reason on a scale that dwarfs the concerns of life or death of one generation, no matter how many.

Ok, so, that sucks for people alive right now. They find out they are extremely late to a party that the Reapers have already started, millions of years before their planet was even born. Alright fine, their purpose is ancient. Beyond ancient.

But then what is reason for their purpose? This is something BioWare did not spell out directly, and most science fiction will leave vague anyways due to it being VERY hard to explain what, on a scientific level, could have such vast implications. However, there are a few events in the universe that do have such far reaching implications, at least in theoretical science. This is where my head filled in some of the blanks:

The Reaper on Rannoch says: "You represent chaos, we represent order. Every organic civilization must be harvested in order to bring order to the chaos. It is inevitable. Without our intervention, organics are doomed. We are your salvation."

Chaos, can also be explained as Entropy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy)

"The second law of thermodynamics states that in general the total
entropy of any system will not decrease other than by increasing the
entropy of some other system. Hence, in a system isolated from its
environment, the entropy of that system will tend not to decrease. It
follows that heat will not flow from a colder body to a hotter body
without the application of work (the imposition of order) to the colder
body. Secondly, it is impossible for any device operating on a cycle to
produce net work from a single temperature reservoir; the production of
net work requires flow of heat from a hotter reservoir to a colder
reservoir. As a result, there is no possibility of a perpetual motion system. It follows that a reduction in the increase of entropy in a specified process, such as a chemical reaction, means that it is energetically more efficient."

In other words, energy can not be created or destroyed. It can only be converted, or manipulated. The natural flow of energy (or heatmotion) in a closed system without influence, is for energy to disperse. Order, in any form, is the most difficult state particles can assume. This is why perpetual motion is impossible, because this is a law of nature.

With that in mind, what does that have to do with Reapers, and their intent? Heat Death... (http://en.wikipedia....of_the_universe)

"The heat death of the universe is a suggested ultimate fate of the universe, in which the universe has diminished to a state of no thermodynamic free energy and therefore can no longer sustain motion or life. Heat death does not imply any particular absolute temperature; it only requires that temperature differences or other process may no longer be exploited to perform work. In the language of physics, this is when the universe reaches the maximum entropy."

"The idea of heat death stems from the second law of thermodynamics, which states that entropy tends to increase in an isolated system. If the universe lasts for a sufficient time, it will asymptotically approach a state where all energy is evenly distributed. In other words, in nature there is a tendency to the dissipation (energy loss) of mechanical energy (motion); hence, by extrapolation, there exists the view that the mechanical movement of the universe will run down, as work is converted to heat, in time due to the second law."

This is a real theoretical possibility for the "end" of the universe. Where by, all interactions, of any kind, will cease to be possible. In terms of Mass Effect, that Reaper on Rannoch says that all life must be "Harvested". The only reason I can see this as being necessary, is if life, as we know it, causes entropy to increase in the universe, faster than it would naturally. But since energy can not be created or distroyed, this could be the way for the Reapers to continue a cycle of life, without causing irreversible harm to the universe. It seems particularly devilish to have to wipe out whole species, but when you take in to account things like the Krogan, who multiply faster than the galaxy can even support, or evolution where organics are actually creating new life forms (the Geth, etc). The cycle leads toward an energy usage singularity. At a certain point, there would be no way to return order to the entropy, and the possibility of heat death of the universe would take place.

A particularly advanced race in the early galaxyuniverse could have seen this as the ultimate problem facing the cosmos. They created the Mass Relays, the Citadel, and the Reapers, in order to allow life to continue, as a renewable resource in regards to the universal amount of total energy available.

I also think that the Crucible could have been created by the same people who made the Mass Relays, Citadel, and the Reapers, as an end game for the cycle. That's where Shepard and his choices come in to play. You have to think of the game more like Heavy Rain, and less like Chrono Trigger at this point. There is an end, and the story will get there no matter what you do. The end goal is, getting the crucible built and using it. Your choice at the end, has to be made, though. The cycle has to end, one way or another. Option 1: The Reapers can do their thing, and take the entire galaxy, like they have always done. Option 2: Use the crucible.

If the Crucible was designed by the same people who made the Reapers (etc) then it makes sense that they still call the shots. The crucible ends the cycle by removing the reaper harvesting forever, but the stipulation is that you can no longer evolve on the paths they have chosen. For better or worse. I'm not sure what that means in regards to chaos and order, but perhapos the Synthesis ending is the correct answer?

TL;DR: Just one fans thoughts.

That wasn't too long at all. It makes sense but seems more implausible than the Indoctrination Theory. I know you supply some compelling evidence but Indoctrination has a lot more support evidence from the previous games. That said, they may not be mutually exclusive. Afterall, the if the Reapers are a Solution to entropy and heat death then they may still try to stop Shepard by indoctrinating him/her to avoid breaking the cycle.

Very interesting.

To be perfectly honest, I'm enjoying the debate on what the end means more than the ending itself. Maybe that was BioWare's intention all along? Afterall, Casey did say he wanted it to be a discussion point and for the game to not be forgotten.

In the end though, we're not upset about the ending but how it was carried out - with a lack of actual difference depending on our choices from ME1 to ME3. This wouldn't have been such an issue if BioWare didn't actually state that what we did in the three games would impact the ending a lot. Although I like the irony that the ending boiled down to a choice, I don't think it was fitting of the series or what we were told would happen. Even if they had taken away the choice and it was automatically made depending on what choices we had made or our military strength, then that would have been preferable.

The way it is, it just seems a bit too vage, unfinished and it doesn't satisfy the expectation (implied to, not inferred by, the fans) that their choices would make a difference to the ending of the game.

As I say, personally, I am enjoying the debate... the YouTube videos, the blogs, the forum posts - they all make compelling theories. Regardless of what happens, I enjoyed playing all three games and, even though I'd love a better ending fitting of the series' epic nature, that doesn't take away from the incredible rollercoaster ride in my opinion.

[eldingo12]

Chris Priestly wrote...

We appreciate everyone’s feedback about Mass Effect 3 and want you to know that we are listening.

Clearly you are not. 

[Andy the Black]

OrangeLazarus86 wrote...

Way to listen BioWare. +60k fans and loyal consumers ask for a new ending and you betray us all with Free DLC that only extends the support genocide and nihilism.

We all make mistakes BioWare. We all own up to them, few of us hide behind them like British Petroleum, Bush Administration, the Crusades, OJ Simpson, Hitler, Christopher Columbus, etc.

Just listen to us, stop hiding behind "artistic integrity" because genocide and nihilism are not positive attributes, otherwise Hitler and the events in Rwanda would be justified as being good. We fought against those beliefs.

Holy crap dude. Did you just compare the Mass 3 ending to The Holocaust? I think the ending needs work, but come on thats a bit much.

[CDRSkyShepard]

Even if they show the ramification of our "choices," we're going to have 3 pre-packaged outcomes based on which ending we picked in ME3. We won't have individual little things that go back to the decisions we made through the previous games. Sur'Kesh/Tuchanka and Rannoch were prime examples of how you could do something like this...but I doubt that's what we'll get. Too bad, because the writing on those missions was superb, versus the disaster that was the final mission.

So, who votes we blow this popsicle stand and go get some wings and a beer?

[jonesy1138]

Norrin_Radd wrote...

Using terms like Deus ex machina really says a lot about how little you guys took from the dialogs with the Reapers and the Prothean VI. True, they did not spell out every little detail. I grant you that, but it does not take much imagination to consider what happened? And why it happened?

RealStyli, I appreciate your reply, and it definitely helps me realize there are some normal people in this crowd. I can explain my interpretation of the ending, and what it means for the future of this franchise. I am not saying it is definitely what happened, it's just where my mind filled in the blanks. The reason I would have avoided this under normal circumstances, is that it is incredibly nerdy to go this in depth for an argument about a sci-fi story. But, oh well. For me, it's not so much how it ended, as it is the fiction itself.

The thing I think most people conveniently forget is that a human being lives in a time scale of around 100 years. A Reaper lives in time scales of beyond 50000 years. For whatever reason the Reapers snuff out all advanced life at 50000 years, you can rest assured that it is for a reason on a scale that dwarfs the concerns of life or death of one generation, no matter how many.

Ok, so, that sucks for people alive right now. They find out they are extremely late to a party that the Reapers have already started, millions of years before their planet was even born. Alright fine, their purpose is ancient. Beyond ancient.

But then what is reason for their purpose? This is something BioWare did not spell out directly, and most science fiction will leave vague anyways due to it being VERY hard to explain what, on a scientific level, could have such vast implications. However, there are a few events in the universe that do have such far reaching implications, at least in theoretical science. This is where my head filled in some of the blanks:

The Reaper on Rannoch says: "You represent chaos, we represent order. Every organic civilization must be harvested in order to bring order to the chaos. It is inevitable. Without our intervention, organics are doomed. We are your salvation."

Chaos, can also be explained as Entropy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy)

"The second law of thermodynamics states that in general the total
entropy of any system will not decrease other than by increasing the
entropy of some other system. Hence, in a system isolated from its
environment, the entropy of that system will tend not to decrease. It
follows that heat will not flow from a colder body to a hotter body
without the application of work (the imposition of order) to the colder
body. Secondly, it is impossible for any device operating on a cycle to
produce net work from a single temperature reservoir; the production of
net work requires flow of heat from a hotter reservoir to a colder
reservoir. As a result, there is no possibility of a perpetual motion system. It follows that a reduction in the increase of entropy in a specified process, such as a chemical reaction, means that it is energetically more efficient."

In other words, energy can not be created or destroyed. It can only be converted, or manipulated. The natural flow of energy (or heatmotion) in a closed system without influence, is for energy to disperse. Order, in any form, is the most difficult state particles can assume. This is why perpetual motion is impossible, because this is a law of nature.

With that in mind, what does that have to do with Reapers, and their intent? Heat Death... (http://en.wikipedia....of_the_universe)

"The heat death of the universe is a suggested ultimate fate of the universe, in which the universe has diminished to a state of no thermodynamic free energy and therefore can no longer sustain motion or life. Heat death does not imply any particular absolute temperature; it only requires that temperature differences or other process may no longer be exploited to perform work. In the language of physics, this is when the universe reaches the maximum entropy."

"The idea of heat death stems from the second law of thermodynamics, which states that entropy tends to increase in an isolated system. If the universe lasts for a sufficient time, it will asymptotically approach a state where all energy is evenly distributed. In other words, in nature there is a tendency to the dissipation (energy loss) of mechanical energy (motion); hence, by extrapolation, there exists the view that the mechanical movement of the universe will run down, as work is converted to heat, in time due to the second law."

This is a real theoretical possibility for the "end" of the universe. Where by, all interactions, of any kind, will cease to be possible. In terms of Mass Effect, that Reaper on Rannoch says that all life must be "Harvested". The only reason I can see this as being necessary, is if life, as we know it, causes entropy to increase in the universe, faster than it would naturally. But since energy can not be created or distroyed, this could be the way for the Reapers to continue a cycle of life, without causing irreversible harm to the universe. It seems particularly devilish to have to wipe out whole species, but when you take in to account things like the Krogan, who multiply faster than the galaxy can even support, or evolution where organics are actually creating new life forms (the Geth, etc). The cycle leads toward an energy usage singularity. At a certain point, there would be no way to return order to the entropy, and the possibility of heat death of the universe would take place.

A particularly advanced race in the early galaxyuniverse could have seen this as the ultimate problem facing the cosmos. They created the Mass Relays, the Citadel, and the Reapers, in order to allow life to continue, as a renewable resource in regards to the universal amount of total energy available.

I also think that the Crucible could have been created by the same people who made the Mass Relays, Citadel, and the Reapers, as an end game for the cycle. That's where Shepard and his choices come in to play. You have to think of the game more like Heavy Rain, and less like Chrono Trigger at this point. There is an end, and the story will get there no matter what you do. The end goal is, getting the crucible built and using it. Your choice at the end, has to be made, though. The cycle has to end, one way or another. Option 1: The Reapers can do their thing, and take the entire galaxy, like they have always done. Option 2: Use the crucible.

If the Crucible was designed by the same people who made the Reapers (etc) then it makes sense that they still call the shots. The crucible ends the cycle by removing the reaper harvesting forever, but the stipulation is that you can no longer evolve on the paths they have chosen. For better or worse. I'm not sure what that means in regards to chaos and order, but perhapos the Synthesis ending is the correct answer?

TL;DR: Just one fans thoughts.

Ive been fascinated with the concept of entropy ever since i read Asimov's The Last Question. It would have been great if the ultimate purpose behind the 'Reaper harvest' was an attempt to revert entropy or at least an attempt to stop it. It was obvious from the very beginning that the Reapers were built 'for a higher cause' and what better cause than the preservation of the universe? Sadly, their 'true purpose' turned out to be quite uninspired and poorly thought...

Modifié par jonesy1138, 05 avril 2012 - 11:36 .

[Leem_0001]

Norrin_Radd wrote...

Using terms like Deus ex machina really says a lot about how little you guys took from the dialogs with the Reapers and the Prothean VI. True, they did not spell out every little detail. I grant you that, but it does not take much imagination to consider what happened? And why it happened?

RealStyli, I appreciate your reply, and it definitely helps me realize there are some normal people in this crowd. I can explain my interpretation of the ending, and what it means for the future of this franchise. I am not saying it is definitely what happened, it's just where my mind filled in the blanks. The reason I would have avoided this under normal circumstances, is that it is incredibly nerdy to go this in depth for an argument about a sci-fi story. But, oh well. For me, it's not so much how it ended, as it is the fiction itself.

The thing I think most people conveniently forget is that a human being lives in a time scale of around 100 years. A Reaper lives in time scales of beyond 50000 years. For whatever reason the Reapers snuff out all advanced life at 50000 years, you can rest assured that it is for a reason on a scale that dwarfs the concerns of life or death of one generation, no matter how many.

Ok, so, that sucks for people alive right now. They find out they are extremely late to a party that the Reapers have already started, millions of years before their planet was even born. Alright fine, their purpose is ancient. Beyond ancient.

But then what is reason for their purpose? This is something BioWare did not spell out directly, and most science fiction will leave vague anyways due to it being VERY hard to explain what, on a scientific level, could have such vast implications. However, there are a few events in the universe that do have such far reaching implications, at least in theoretical science. This is where my head filled in some of the blanks:

The Reaper on Rannoch says: "You represent chaos, we represent order. Every organic civilization must be harvested in order to bring order to the chaos. It is inevitable. Without our intervention, organics are doomed. We are your salvation."

Chaos, can also be explained as Entropy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy)

"The second law of thermodynamics states that in general the total
entropy of any system will not decrease other than by increasing the
entropy of some other system. Hence, in a system isolated from its
environment, the entropy of that system will tend not to decrease. It
follows that heat will not flow from a colder body to a hotter body
without the application of work (the imposition of order) to the colder
body. Secondly, it is impossible for any device operating on a cycle to
produce net work from a single temperature reservoir; the production of
net work requires flow of heat from a hotter reservoir to a colder
reservoir. As a result, there is no possibility of a perpetual motion system. It follows that a reduction in the increase of entropy in a specified process, such as a chemical reaction, means that it is energetically more efficient."

In other words, energy can not be created or destroyed. It can only be converted, or manipulated. The natural flow of energy (or heatmotion) in a closed system without influence, is for energy to disperse. Order, in any form, is the most difficult state particles can assume. This is why perpetual motion is impossible, because this is a law of nature.

With that in mind, what does that have to do with Reapers, and their intent? Heat Death... (http://en.wikipedia....of_the_universe)

"The heat death of the universe is a suggested ultimate fate of the universe, in which the universe has diminished to a state of no thermodynamic free energy and therefore can no longer sustain motion or life. Heat death does not imply any particular absolute temperature; it only requires that temperature differences or other process may no longer be exploited to perform work. In the language of physics, this is when the universe reaches the maximum entropy."

"The idea of heat death stems from the second law of thermodynamics, which states that entropy tends to increase in an isolated system. If the universe lasts for a sufficient time, it will asymptotically approach a state where all energy is evenly distributed. In other words, in nature there is a tendency to the dissipation (energy loss) of mechanical energy (motion); hence, by extrapolation, there exists the view that the mechanical movement of the universe will run down, as work is converted to heat, in time due to the second law."

This is a real theoretical possibility for the "end" of the universe. Where by, all interactions, of any kind, will cease to be possible. In terms of Mass Effect, that Reaper on Rannoch says that all life must be "Harvested". The only reason I can see this as being necessary, is if life, as we know it, causes entropy to increase in the universe, faster than it would naturally. But since energy can not be created or distroyed, this could be the way for the Reapers to continue a cycle of life, without causing irreversible harm to the universe. It seems particularly devilish to have to wipe out whole species, but when you take in to account things like the Krogan, who multiply faster than the galaxy can even support, or evolution where organics are actually creating new life forms (the Geth, etc). The cycle leads toward an energy usage singularity. At a certain point, there would be no way to return order to the entropy, and the possibility of heat death of the universe would take place.

A particularly advanced race in the early galaxyuniverse could have seen this as the ultimate problem facing the cosmos. They created the Mass Relays, the Citadel, and the Reapers, in order to allow life to continue, as a renewable resource in regards to the universal amount of total energy available.

I also think that the Crucible could have been created by the same people who made the Mass Relays, Citadel, and the Reapers, as an end game for the cycle. That's where Shepard and his choices come in to play. You have to think of the game more like Heavy Rain, and less like Chrono Trigger at this point. There is an end, and the story will get there no matter what you do. The end goal is, getting the crucible built and using it. Your choice at the end, has to be made, though. The cycle has to end, one way or another. Option 1: The Reapers can do their thing, and take the entire galaxy, like they have always done. Option 2: Use the crucible.

If the Crucible was designed by the same people who made the Reapers (etc) then it makes sense that they still call the shots. The crucible ends the cycle by removing the reaper harvesting forever, but the stipulation is that you can no longer evolve on the paths they have chosen. For better or worse. I'm not sure what that means in regards to chaos and order, but perhapos the Synthesis ending is the correct answer?

TL;DR: Just one fans thoughts.

Norrin - a very well thought out and informative post sir. I am on the other end of the spectrum, I hated the endings, but I like what you have done here.

If your theories are true (especially about heat death, a theory I know a lot about) then it would have neen a lot better IMO. The problem is, for me, the endings were so vague and nonesensicle that they could just as easily be interperated a multitude of different ways. And that is where the problem lies.

I have heard that the original lead writers ending was similar, in that the reapers were created to stop the increase of Dark Energy, which was increasing rapidly (as shown in Tali's quest in ME2) and the human reaper was somehow a way to construct this. If this theory, or your heat death explination, was used with a bit more focus, then I would have been happy. Genuinely I would have been impressed. As it is all we have is the Starchild saying that he (an advances AI - thus synthetic) created synthetics to wipe out advanced life every 500000 years to stop organic life being destroyed by synthetics. No talk of heat death or dark energy or anything like that. And the main theme, of life of all races working together and putting aside past differences (which is soooo relevant today) was abandoned and turned on its head in the last 15 minutes. Plus all of the promisies that were made were proven to be false.

But I do think you have an eye for a good story and should think about Sci-fi fiction. Not trying to flame but I think what you could come up with would exceed Bioware's efforts purely because of Bioware's poor storytelling and committing story suicide with regards to the ending. In my view anyway.

Still, respect your view and appreciate the other side of the coin being put forth in such a mature, informative way.

Modifié par Leem_0001, 05 avril 2012 - 11:38 .

[Leem_0001]

Double post, apologies.

Modifié par Leem_0001, 05 avril 2012 - 11:39 .

[Enado]

It's funny because you're not listening..

[RealStyli]

Enado wrote...

It's funny because you're not listening..

Technically, they may be "listening" but they're not "reading" 

[Jordan_Rannoch]

I guess it is truly over. Every fan that reads this I wish to tell you that if I was the leader of BioWare I would have created a ME3 ending so great and so many differents ways of ending. Everbody probably cry and say "Damn I don't want it to end but this is the way it ends." Shepard with his friends that you all have grown to love and charish. At the end of all those credits I would've made a message for the fans saying this " Well we finally made to the end of this incredable story and you got the ending you wanted. Thats the end of Commander Shepard's story. BioWare truly thanks the fans for waiting on an incredable story. Thank you and fair well." Thats what I would've done.

[pipemaster9000]

Well guys, our posts were in vain. We, the bulk of their income, are not important. "Critically acclaimed reviews" are all thats relevant here.

[Jordan_Rannoch]

Yep.

[Norrin_Radd]

RealStyli wrote...

Norrin_Radd wrote...

Using terms like Deus ex machina really says a lot about how little you guys took from the dialogs with the Reapers and the Prothean VI. True, they did not spell out every little detail. I grant you that, but it does not take much imagination to consider what happened? And why it happened?

RealStyli, I appreciate your reply, and it definitely helps me realize there are some normal people in this crowd. I can explain my interpretation of the ending, and what it means for the future of this franchise. I am not saying it is definitely what happened, it's just where my mind filled in the blanks. The reason I would have avoided this under normal circumstances, is that it is incredibly nerdy to go this in depth for an argument about a sci-fi story. But, oh well. For me, it's not so much how it ended, as it is the fiction itself.

The thing I think most people conveniently forget is that a human being lives in a time scale of around 100 years. A Reaper lives in time scales of beyond 50000 years. For whatever reason the Reapers snuff out all advanced life at 50000 years, you can rest assured that it is for a reason on a scale that dwarfs the concerns of life or death of one generation, no matter how many.

Ok, so, that sucks for people alive right now. They find out they are extremely late to a party that the Reapers have already started, millions of years before their planet was even born. Alright fine, their purpose is ancient. Beyond ancient.

But then what is reason for their purpose? This is something BioWare did not spell out directly, and most science fiction will leave vague anyways due to it being VERY hard to explain what, on a scientific level, could have such vast implications. However, there are a few events in the universe that do have such far reaching implications, at least in theoretical science. This is where my head filled in some of the blanks:

The Reaper on Rannoch says: "You represent chaos, we represent order. Every organic civilization must be harvested in order to bring order to the chaos. It is inevitable. Without our intervention, organics are doomed. We are your salvation."

Chaos, can also be explained as Entropy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy)

"The second law of thermodynamics states that in general the total
entropy of any system will not decrease other than by increasing the
entropy of some other system. Hence, in a system isolated from its
environment, the entropy of that system will tend not to decrease. It
follows that heat will not flow from a colder body to a hotter body
without the application of work (the imposition of order) to the colder
body. Secondly, it is impossible for any device operating on a cycle to
produce net work from a single temperature reservoir; the production of
net work requires flow of heat from a hotter reservoir to a colder
reservoir. As a result, there is no possibility of a perpetual motion system. It follows that a reduction in the increase of entropy in a specified process, such as a chemical reaction, means that it is energetically more efficient."

In other words, energy can not be created or destroyed. It can only be converted, or manipulated. The natural flow of energy (or heatmotion) in a closed system without influence, is for energy to disperse. Order, in any form, is the most difficult state particles can assume. This is why perpetual motion is impossible, because this is a law of nature.

With that in mind, what does that have to do with Reapers, and their intent? Heat Death... (http://en.wikipedia....of_the_universe)

"The heat death of the universe is a suggested ultimate fate of the universe, in which the universe has diminished to a state of no thermodynamic free energy and therefore can no longer sustain motion or life. Heat death does not imply any particular absolute temperature; it only requires that temperature differences or other process may no longer be exploited to perform work. In the language of physics, this is when the universe reaches the maximum entropy."

"The idea of heat death stems from the second law of thermodynamics, which states that entropy tends to increase in an isolated system. If the universe lasts for a sufficient time, it will asymptotically approach a state where all energy is evenly distributed. In other words, in nature there is a tendency to the dissipation (energy loss) of mechanical energy (motion); hence, by extrapolation, there exists the view that the mechanical movement of the universe will run down, as work is converted to heat, in time due to the second law."

This is a real theoretical possibility for the "end" of the universe. Where by, all interactions, of any kind, will cease to be possible. In terms of Mass Effect, that Reaper on Rannoch says that all life must be "Harvested". The only reason I can see this as being necessary, is if life, as we know it, causes entropy to increase in the universe, faster than it would naturally. But since energy can not be created or distroyed, this could be the way for the Reapers to continue a cycle of life, without causing irreversible harm to the universe. It seems particularly devilish to have to wipe out whole species, but when you take in to account things like the Krogan, who multiply faster than the galaxy can even support, or evolution where organics are actually creating new life forms (the Geth, etc). The cycle leads toward an energy usage singularity. At a certain point, there would be no way to return order to the entropy, and the possibility of heat death of the universe would take place.

A particularly advanced race in the early galaxyuniverse could have seen this as the ultimate problem facing the cosmos. They created the Mass Relays, the Citadel, and the Reapers, in order to allow life to continue, as a renewable resource in regards to the universal amount of total energy available.

I also think that the Crucible could have been created by the same people who made the Mass Relays, Citadel, and the Reapers, as an end game for the cycle. That's where Shepard and his choices come in to play. You have to think of the game more like Heavy Rain, and less like Chrono Trigger at this point. There is an end, and the story will get there no matter what you do. The end goal is, getting the crucible built and using it. Your choice at the end, has to be made, though. The cycle has to end, one way or another. Option 1: The Reapers can do their thing, and take the entire galaxy, like they have always done. Option 2: Use the crucible.

If the Crucible was designed by the same people who made the Reapers (etc) then it makes sense that they still call the shots. The crucible ends the cycle by removing the reaper harvesting forever, but the stipulation is that you can no longer evolve on the paths they have chosen. For better or worse. I'm not sure what that means in regards to chaos and order, but perhapos the Synthesis ending is the correct answer?

TL;DR: Just one fans thoughts.

That wasn't too long at all. It makes sense but seems more implausible than the Indoctrination Theory. I know you supply some compelling evidence but Indoctrination has a lot more support evidence from the previous games. That said, they may not be mutually exclusive. Afterall, the if the Reapers are a Solution to entropy and heat death then they may still try to stop Shepard by indoctrinating him/her to avoid breaking the cycle.

Very interesting.

To be perfectly honest, I'm enjoying the debate on what the end means more than the ending itself. Maybe that was BioWare's intention all along? Afterall, Casey did say he wanted it to be a discussion point and for the game to not be forgotten.

In the end though, we're not upset about the ending but how it was carried out - with a lack of actual difference depending on our choices from ME1 to ME3. This wouldn't have been such an issue if BioWare didn't actually state that what we did in the three games would impact the ending a lot. Although I like the irony that the ending boiled down to a choice, I don't think it was fitting of the series or what we were told would happen. Even if they had taken away the choice and it was automatically made depending on what choices we had made or our military strength, then that would have been preferable.

The way it is, it just seems a bit too vage, unfinished and it doesn't satisfy the expectation (implied to, not inferred by, the fans) that their choices would make a difference to the ending of the game.

As I say, personally, I am enjoying the debate... the YouTube videos, the blogs, the forum posts - they all make compelling theories. Regardless of what happens, I enjoyed playing all three games and, even though I'd love a better ending fitting of the series' epic nature, that doesn't take away from the incredible rollercoaster ride in my opinion.

Thanks for being in this thread! It gets too depressing reading one angst ridden post after another. But yes, I absolutely agree with you. An intelligent debate about the ending is so damn fun. I really enjoy seeing the non sarcastic expanations of the Indoctrination theory, and other interpretations.

But yeah, my ultimate complaint with the game was that while the Catalyst was talking, I was not able to go back and re-read what he just said. I didn't fully understand the choices at the time, and there was no way to look at the text of the conversation again, haha. I am really interested to see their more detailed ending. And I think the fact that they are offering it for free shows a level of committment to their fans that has never been shown before, in any medium. Mass Effect might just be the most highfalutin sci-fi series around, and it takes a little more TLC to really help people gel with it.

One other point about the literal interpretations of the ending is, on one hand, the reapers and possibly Earth are completely wiped out. Another, all organics and synthetics undergo synthesis. And in a third, the reapers are now controlled by Shepard.

If you were to import that save into a future Mass Effect game, the raminifactions would be INSANE! But still, seemingly doable on Bioware's end. They would just have to create a permenant 3 pronged story line that you would have to choose (or import) in to. Even without Shepard, there are tons of other notable characters already in the universe. These 3 endings would have some vast and interesting effects on any future protagonists in the Mass Effect universe.