23455 réponses à ce sujet

[BurnOutBrighter]

Nope, you weren't listening. Sorry BioWare. Another lie.

[jeweledleah]

@ Norrin - its a fascinating theory with just one problem. it doesn't really fit the mood of the rest of the game. Mass Effect was never sold as a psychological thriller. it was an action adventure, a space opera. Everything else in all 3 games, including some of the more difficult decisions, are relatively straight forward with all the consequences and reasons spelled out. even the nature of person-hood, is discussed with very demonstrative examples. its geared to push emotional buttons, to pull on heartstrings all the while getting our adrenaline pumping. the depth comes from character interactions, not overall story.

in short, I think you are giving bioware far too much credit, aka you are overanalyzing the esoteric implications. just like folks who came up with indoctrination theory, are over-analyzing. bioware is not that subtle. to put it mildly.

and if synthesis was a correct answer, why include Shepard breathes scene for people who gain extra 1200 (or 2200 if they miss persuasion check) EMS? not to mention... with minimum EMS, you don't get the synthesis. you get destroy if you destroyed the base? or control if you kept it. crucible.. apparently, changes catalyst in very video gamey ways.

P.S.  you want to talk level of commitment to the fans?

on April 17th, CDprojek is releasing their latest content update for Witcher 2.  according to their statement, its over 10gig.  comes with overhaul of graphics, gameplay and... 4 extra hours of gameplay/ 30 more minutes of cutscenes

FREE.

all of their updates?  are free.

AND .

its completely DRM free.

now THAT's level of commitement.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 05 avril 2012 - 11:56 .

[Aspia Shadowborne]

Turns out you weren't after all.

[Norrin_Radd]

Leem_0001 wrote...

Norrin_Radd wrote...

Using terms like Deus ex machina really says a lot about how little you guys took from the dialogs with the Reapers and the Prothean VI. True, they did not spell out every little detail. I grant you that, but it does not take much imagination to consider what happened? And why it happened?

RealStyli, I appreciate your reply, and it definitely helps me realize there are some normal people in this crowd. I can explain my interpretation of the ending, and what it means for the future of this franchise. I am not saying it is definitely what happened, it's just where my mind filled in the blanks. The reason I would have avoided this under normal circumstances, is that it is incredibly nerdy to go this in depth for an argument about a sci-fi story. But, oh well. For me, it's not so much how it ended, as it is the fiction itself.

The thing I think most people conveniently forget is that a human being lives in a time scale of around 100 years. A Reaper lives in time scales of beyond 50000 years. For whatever reason the Reapers snuff out all advanced life at 50000 years, you can rest assured that it is for a reason on a scale that dwarfs the concerns of life or death of one generation, no matter how many.

Ok, so, that sucks for people alive right now. They find out they are extremely late to a party that the Reapers have already started, millions of years before their planet was even born. Alright fine, their purpose is ancient. Beyond ancient.

But then what is reason for their purpose? This is something BioWare did not spell out directly, and most science fiction will leave vague anyways due to it being VERY hard to explain what, on a scientific level, could have such vast implications. However, there are a few events in the universe that do have such far reaching implications, at least in theoretical science. This is where my head filled in some of the blanks:

The Reaper on Rannoch says: "You represent chaos, we represent order. Every organic civilization must be harvested in order to bring order to the chaos. It is inevitable. Without our intervention, organics are doomed. We are your salvation."

Chaos, can also be explained as Entropy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy)

"The second law of thermodynamics states that in general the total
entropy of any system will not decrease other than by increasing the
entropy of some other system. Hence, in a system isolated from its
environment, the entropy of that system will tend not to decrease. It
follows that heat will not flow from a colder body to a hotter body
without the application of work (the imposition of order) to the colder
body. Secondly, it is impossible for any device operating on a cycle to
produce net work from a single temperature reservoir; the production of
net work requires flow of heat from a hotter reservoir to a colder
reservoir. As a result, there is no possibility of a perpetual motion system. It follows that a reduction in the increase of entropy in a specified process, such as a chemical reaction, means that it is energetically more efficient."

In other words, energy can not be created or destroyed. It can only be converted, or manipulated. The natural flow of energy (or heatmotion) in a closed system without influence, is for energy to disperse. Order, in any form, is the most difficult state particles can assume. This is why perpetual motion is impossible, because this is a law of nature.

With that in mind, what does that have to do with Reapers, and their intent? Heat Death... (http://en.wikipedia....of_the_universe)

"The heat death of the universe is a suggested ultimate fate of the universe, in which the universe has diminished to a state of no thermodynamic free energy and therefore can no longer sustain motion or life. Heat death does not imply any particular absolute temperature; it only requires that temperature differences or other process may no longer be exploited to perform work. In the language of physics, this is when the universe reaches the maximum entropy."

"The idea of heat death stems from the second law of thermodynamics, which states that entropy tends to increase in an isolated system. If the universe lasts for a sufficient time, it will asymptotically approach a state where all energy is evenly distributed. In other words, in nature there is a tendency to the dissipation (energy loss) of mechanical energy (motion); hence, by extrapolation, there exists the view that the mechanical movement of the universe will run down, as work is converted to heat, in time due to the second law."

This is a real theoretical possibility for the "end" of the universe. Where by, all interactions, of any kind, will cease to be possible. In terms of Mass Effect, that Reaper on Rannoch says that all life must be "Harvested". The only reason I can see this as being necessary, is if life, as we know it, causes entropy to increase in the universe, faster than it would naturally. But since energy can not be created or distroyed, this could be the way for the Reapers to continue a cycle of life, without causing irreversible harm to the universe. It seems particularly devilish to have to wipe out whole species, but when you take in to account things like the Krogan, who multiply faster than the galaxy can even support, or evolution where organics are actually creating new life forms (the Geth, etc). The cycle leads toward an energy usage singularity. At a certain point, there would be no way to return order to the entropy, and the possibility of heat death of the universe would take place.

A particularly advanced race in the early galaxyuniverse could have seen this as the ultimate problem facing the cosmos. They created the Mass Relays, the Citadel, and the Reapers, in order to allow life to continue, as a renewable resource in regards to the universal amount of total energy available.

I also think that the Crucible could have been created by the same people who made the Mass Relays, Citadel, and the Reapers, as an end game for the cycle. That's where Shepard and his choices come in to play. You have to think of the game more like Heavy Rain, and less like Chrono Trigger at this point. There is an end, and the story will get there no matter what you do. The end goal is, getting the crucible built and using it. Your choice at the end, has to be made, though. The cycle has to end, one way or another. Option 1: The Reapers can do their thing, and take the entire galaxy, like they have always done. Option 2: Use the crucible.

If the Crucible was designed by the same people who made the Reapers (etc) then it makes sense that they still call the shots. The crucible ends the cycle by removing the reaper harvesting forever, but the stipulation is that you can no longer evolve on the paths they have chosen. For better or worse. I'm not sure what that means in regards to chaos and order, but perhapos the Synthesis ending is the correct answer?

TL;DR: Just one fans thoughts.

Norrin - a very well thought out and informative post sir. I am on the other end of the spectrum, I hated the endings, but I like what you have done here.

If your theories are true (especially about heat death, a theory I know a lot about) then it would have neen a lot better IMO. The problem is, for me, the endings were so vague and nonesensicle that they could just as easily be interperated a multitude of different ways. And that is where the problem lies.

I have heard that the original lead writers ending was similar, in that the reapers were created to stop the increase of Dark Energy, which was increasing rapidly (as shown in Tali's quest in ME2) and the human reaper was somehow a way to construct this. If this theory, or your heat death explination, was used with a bit more focus, then I would have been happy. Genuinely I would have been impressed. As it is all we have is the Starchild saying that he (an advances AI - thus synthetic) created synthetics to wipe out advanced life every 500000 years to stop organic life being destroyed by synthetics. No talk of heat death or dark energy or anything like that. And the main theme, of life of all races working together and putting aside past differences (which is soooo relevant today) was abandoned and turned on its head in the last 15 minutes. Plus all of the promisies that were made were proven to be false.

But I do think you have an eye for a good story and should think about Sci-fi fiction. Not trying to flame but I think what you could come up with would exceed Bioware's efforts purely because of Bioware's poor storytelling and committing story suicide with regards to the ending. In my view anyway.

Still, respect your view and appreciate the other side of the coin being put forth in such a mature, informative way.

Oh my, I was actually unaware of that Dark Energy theory. Yeah, I can start to see where the ending has been left too vague. I do agree that there is a hitch at the end, with the Catalyst not really hammering home the core idea. He sort of vaguely says that synthetics rebel against their creators or whatever creating too much chaos. That's the part I really hope they just iron out completely.

I think the original intent was to have a future (non Shepard) ME game to carry that part of the fiction forward (where as Shepard's story was about using the Crucible and sacrificing himself). But with the uproar, I think they have been sobered into having to explain themselves now, instead of later. Which I think is a good thing. And good on them.

But I agree, if they make the wrong choice, they could dump the bed real easy.

[clarkusdarkus]

close this thread, its like the pre-release quotes, liessssssssssssssssssss

[ElPolloDiabloCH]

The ending seems to leave quite some imortant questions open. I'm actualy fine with that though. While I would have loved to kick some reaper ass in the end, I would have hated some corny happy ending. 

In the end, I enjoyed every minute of Mass Effect 1, 2 and 3 (yes that includes the ending). It has been one, if not the, greatest media experience I was ever able to enjoy. Thanks to all who made this possible.

[CommanderWilliams]

Listening to the fans?
We have dismissed that claim.

Derek Larke wrote...

An official press release went out today announcing how we are re-prioritizing the Mass Effect 3 post release content schedule to provide a more fleshed out experience for our fans. For many of you the "Extended Cut" will help answer some questions and give closure to this chapter of the Mass Effect story. Oh and it's at no cost to you - the fan.

Here is a mini FAQ to help you understand what the Mass Effect 3: Extended Cut is and isn't:

What can fans expect from the Extended Cut DLC?
For fans who want more closure in Mass Effect 3, the DLC will offer extended scenes that provide additional context and deeper insight to the conclusion of Commander Shepard's journey.[/list]
Are there going to be more/different endings or ending DLCs in the future?
No. BioWare strongly believes in the team's artistic vision for the end of this arc of the Mass Effect franchise. The extended cut DLC will expand on the existing endings, but no further ending DLC is planned.[/list]
What is BioWare adding to the ending with the Extended Cut DLC?
BioWare will expanding on the ending to Mass Effect 3 by creating additional cinematics and epilogue scenes to the existing ending sequences. The goal of these new scenes is to provide additional clarity and closure to Mass Effect 3.[/list]
When will the Extended Cut DLC be available?
Currently the Extended Cut DLC is planned for this summer, no specific date has been announced at this point.[/list]
Why are you releasing the Extended Cut DLC?
Though we remain committed and are proud of the artistic choices we made in the main game, we are aware that there are some fans who would like more closure to Mass Effect 3. The goal of the DLC is not to provide a new ending to the game, rather to offer fans additional context and answers to the end of Commander Shepard's story.[/list]
So there you have it. Are we proud of the game we made and the team that made it? Hell yes. Are we going to change the ending of the game? No. Do we appreciate the passion and listen to the feedback delivered to us by our fans? Very much so and we are responding.

Be good to each other and Summer is coming...

[bk1217]

All I have to say is:

Look at the original Mass Effect, decisions
to be made, the outcome of the fight was based on who you wanted to
save, and certain small decisions story wise. The rest of the ending was
a pretty solid single direction of the Reaper dies, and Shepard kills
Saren. Mass Effect 2, you had *A MUCH BETTER GAME* more decisions, more
choices as to how the ending plays out. It depended on who you were
loyal to, who you chose in your party, and who was doing each assignment
as the end levels played out. When the game was over it all came down
to who lived and who died, probably one of the biggest reasons why so
many people loved the ME trilogy and it started to spread like wild
fire. The ending itself was more tailored to a personal approach,
something that is rare to find in action games, and even the whole
"cause and effect" approach is rare in some rpgs as well. So being able
to combine the two caused a huge expectation for the ME3 game's release.

Now look at ME3's ending, no choices from previous games make a difference.
-
(the rachni almost wrecked the universe once upon a time, causing the
Krogan to drive them to extinction, and now that *I* saved them during
the first Mass Effect game, I was expecting them to show up in a flood
and help destroy reapers, but what do i get, their assistance in
building a f*ck'n spaceship?)

- (Everything was exciting up until
the last 5 mins of the game, I was excited to see *sadly not be able to
party with again* my old friends from ME1 and ME2. But it didn't give
any hint to ME2, which was one of the best choice endings ever, of who i
bring in my party will decide what happens, or who lives and dies. I
found myself scared sh*tless because when I ended up getting blasted
near the end, I was afraid I made a horrible mistake of bringing my
beloved Liara with me to my own doom. I was afraid that now she would be
dead somewhere and I would have to run away with Jack *don't have to
twist my arm or anything*, IF i survived at all. BUT NOOOOO the choices
I made meant nothing.)

- (It is fun to watch how reactions tend
to snowball as more people fuel the fire, sadly all I can do is state my
own disapproval of such a, in my opinion, half-assed approach to
concluding an epic journey that I personally took through the first two
games. I can only describe my own interaction with the ending; I was
expecting to read a Shakespearean sonnet *based on my experience with
ME2* and what I got was a High School Student's Haiku written the day
before it was due.)

- (It is perfectly okay for a company to say,
"we are sorry for the response we got, we will do what we can to make
people happy". But to say we are going to try to please the fans and
then spend the entire time rationalizing to yourself and others why you
made it the way you did, and why it should make people not exactly
happy, but content that it is a GAME, and just live with it, doesn't sit
well with me personally, and I believe a lot of people are just tired
of jumping back and forth with spoken and written "fluffing" as i like
to call it. Trying to make me feel happy because it is the way the game
was intended to be, however when you look at the first two games, there
is no way in hell that this is "how it was intended to end". The first
two games' endings meant something. I personally don't know how an
ending that looked this half-assed was able to pass it's way around the
room and get approval to go into the public eye. Someone somewhere along
the way should have gone, ... umm... something ain't right here... this
just doesn't feel "Mass Effecty".)


After this long
explanation of why I feel ME3 shouldn't just be left with a "cinematic
catastrophe" which it seems like this is heading to (I could be wrong,
they could have done really well with little flash clips showing me my
choices somewhere along the way, hopefully a video of the rachni tearing
through a couple reapers). But the way it sounds from the release,
someone is trying to justify why they made the poor decision they made.
And instead they should be rectifying an injustice to a ground breaking
game series. And sitting behind really good reviews doesn't mean that
the ending was at any part good. The 10 rating reviews I have read
explain the multiplayer mode, the graphics, voice acting, kinect
support, team interactions, storyline *throughout the entire game*, and a
few of the more advancements in gameplay that came about in ME3 like
the Omni-blade *which everyone loves btw*.

Sorry that I had to
get all of this out of my head in this forum, but the thought of an
extended cut being ANYTHING close to a finale of such a great series, is
sadly insulting. I am actually hoping that I am dead wrong. And look
forward to being proven wrong. But until there is an actual ending at
some point, the game is just a pretty good multiplayer *which I still
love to no end*, and almost no reason for replaying the single player
campaign *making my promotions effect ONLY my N7 rating and is only
ignored in single player play*.
Thank you for taking your time.

[Norrin_Radd]

jeweledleah wrote...

@ Norrin - its a fascinating theory with just one problem. it doesn't really fit the mood of the rest of the game. Mass Effect was never sold as a psychological thriller. it was an action adventure, a space opera. Everything else in all 3 games, including some of the more difficult decisions, are relatively straight forward with all the consequences and reasons spelled out. even the nature of person-hood, is discussed with very demonstrative examples. its geared to push emotional buttons, to pull on heartstrings all the while getting our adrenaline pumping. the depth comes from character interactions, not overall story.

in short, I think you are giving bioware far too much credit, aka you are overanalyzing the esoteric implications. just like folks who came up with indoctrination theory, are over-analyzing. bioware is not that subtle. to put it mildly.

and if synthesis was a correct answer, why include Shepard breathes scene for people who gain extra 1200 (or 2200 if they miss persuasion check) EMS? not to mention... with minimum EMS, you don't get the synthesis. you get destroy if you destroyed the base? or control if you kept it. crucible.. apparently, changes catalyst in very video gamey ways.

True, I am stretching a lot for my theories here. But every since that first conversation with Sovereign in ME1, I have felt that the purpose of the Reapers has to be on a level that is higher than a simple organics vs life conflict. Time will still tell (I guess we'll see in the summer DLC). I guess it's my fault for reading too many Silver Surfer comics as a kid, and watching every TTC seminar on Cosmology, Astrophysics and Particle Physics I could find) but I am just all too ready to accept the most sciency cosmic answers, hehe.

I agree, the last little bit in the end, with Shepard (are we sure it's Shepard, and not Coates?) breathing is insanely confusing. Perhaps Bioware has not only given you the literal 3 choice ending, but also, a choice on whether or not Shepard was indoctrinated in top of those, witht he breathing ending? So, 4 choices? In the indoctrinated version, maybe that means the reapers win, so it's actually the worst solution?

There were versions of ME2's ending where Shepard is dead. Those are obviously not Canon. So it's very possible that most of the endings in ME3 are not Canon either, but rather, the conclusion tou your own Shepard?

[Dot.Shadow]

No.

You never listened. You never understood.

And now it's over.

I could go on about how and why I'm not going to deal with Bioware ever again. But instead... My fallen hero's favourite line.

I should go.

[adam32867]

http://mychinaconnec...OutTheOther.jpg

[RealStyli]

jeweledleah wrote...



in short, I think you are giving bioware far too much credit, aka you are overanalyzing the esoteric implications. just like folks who came up with indoctrination theory, are over-analyzing. bioware is not that subtle. to put it mildly.

While indoctrination may seem far-fetched at first, when you actually read the evidence and think about it, it actually makes a lot of sense and, if it's not true, it's incredible how much coincidental evidence there is.

Even the appearance of the trees (which were part of Shep's dreams) in London after Harbinger knocks him/her out. They weren't there before the blast. What's the story with that?

Why does no-one interact with the child at the start of the game apart from Shepard? Not even to help him aboard the shuttle.

It's actually a very simplistic theory and doesn't require that much analysing to hold up.

It could be way off the mark, but so far it seems like the best theory. I like it.


While I don't know if Norrin_Radd's heat death theory is part of the Reaper motivation, it's also very attractive. It would fit into why the Reapers view themselves as saviours.

[LiarasShield]

I agree with but I just don't think bioware will listen to us and such a great series is destroyed in the last 5 mins it really is quite sad

[ShepGrimr]

Bioware, i can only assume you don't quite get it. So lets try and figure this out.

Ending staying as is no new ones i.e. star child stays.........
Yeah a big fat nono. Practically every ME3 player is screaming get rid of starchild, last five minutes etc. And yet you plan on doing the exact opposite and keep him............. Artistic value is fine and standing by your developers is fine. But when we have witnessed far better endings in me1 and me2 and this will be in your words the end of shepard's story then it has to be epic. The game itself was epic. The story, the sacrifices of legion, mordin, and thane. The entire game was so amazing and then the last five minutes came up and instead of a huge final battle and an ending with closure we get some kid laughing at us. This game was supposed to be about how your choices would either doom or save the galaxy and hopefully the full destruction of the reapers.

You guys have every right to pursue this option but judging by the responses from this announcement several things will end up happening upon the dlc's release if not sooner.

1.) The DLC explains everything and clarifies everything and almost everyone is happy( not gunna happen)

2.) The DLC comes out with little or no changes and everyone walks away no one buys the future dlc about omega or multiplayer because whats the point of saving omega if the end is the same thing

3.)You wake up and smell the coffee finally realize that the entire ending was wrong and rewrite it and hey if you go that route you can charge us. I would rather pay for a damm good ending for the mass effect series than stick with is here.

The choice is yours!!!!

Modifié par ShepGrimr, 06 avril 2012 - 12:12 .

[zenoxis]

You people didn't listen to jack ****.

[Cant Planet]

I, for one, can't wait to see what it looks like when they start ignoring us.

[eoinnx03]

Lies Bioware. All out lies. You ignored us.

[Jordan_Rannoch]

I guess it is truly over. Every fan that reads this I wish to tell you that if I was the leader of BioWare I would have created a ME3 ending so great and so many differents ways of ending. Everbody probably cry and say "Damn I don't want it to end but this is the way it ends." Shepard with his friends that you all have grown to love and charish. At the end of all those credits I would've made a message for the fans saying this " Well we finally made to the end of this incredable story and you got the ending you wanted. Thats the end of Commander Shepard's story. BioWare truly thanks the fans for waiting on an incredable story. Thank you and fair well." Thats what I would've done.

[LiarasShield]

they obviously must have sand in their ears because they cleary werent listening and like some others have mentioned why even keep this damn thread up when it is a lie

[chevyguy87]

I know I will not be fooled by Bioware's lies any longer

[DarkShadow]

@ title:

No, you're obviously not.

[LiarasShield]

heres a good tribute to how epic me3 was before the ending

[LiarasShield]

[Butane9000]

With the announcement you've made today before PAX you've basically made this entire thread pointless. How pathetic Bioware.

[chevyguy87]

Butane9000 wrote...

With the announcement you've made today before PAX you've basically made this entire thread pointless. How pathetic Bioware.

The really pathetic part is that they claim that they will NOT be discussing any of this at PAX. Which will be funny to see how they try to brush this off like it never happened.