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[ilWarden]

Aquilas wrote...

@Norrin_Radd

Your post is a fascinating read. You've devoted much thought and research to your analysis, and articulate it incisively. Well done.

But in my analysis, given Mass Effect’s physical and metaphysical principles, the Catalyst itself (meaning Hudson and Walters) completely, irrevocably undermines every premise underpinning its and the Reapers’ existence. When the Catalyst meets Shepard and elaborates on the Order versus Chaos principle, it (Hudson and Walters) commits a formal logical fallacy: the Appeal to Probability.

This is the logic structure of the fallacy: A is possible/probable, therefore A is absolute.

When Shepard meets the Catalyst, it explains that the Reapers don’t harvest all organic life; they harvest life forms advanced enough to create synthetics. Synthetics, it says, inevitably will rebel against and destroy their creators, and then would proceed to destroy all organic life. Remember, it’s inevitable.

But the Catalyst doesn’t know that. It cannot know that. It asserts it. To truly know it, the Catalyst must be a god, as we commonly understand it, or at the very least possess god-like powers. Follow:

Just because a thing is possible or probable doesn’t mean it’s inevitable. If the Catalyst were basing its assertion on experience, then it’s already witnessed synthetics destroying all organic life. If that’s the case, Shepard and his allies wouldn’t exist—the Catalyst and the Reapers would have no reason for being. That is, unless the Catalyst re-created organic life so it and the Reapers would have something to do. So we’re looking at some form of supreme Creator.

If the Catalyst is looking forward, the only way it could know absolutely that unchecked synthetics would destroy all organic life is if it’s infallibly prescient—divinely omniscient. Simulations and probabilities don't cut it--remember Mordin and the genophage? So when we consider the Catalyst may have the power to re-create organic life and/or infallibly see the future, we’re most firmly in the realm of godhood.

Is the Catalyst a god? If so, the writers cast Space Magic at the very last minute. Never before have we seen divine intervention in the ME universe. Yes, Ashley prays; and yes, the turians invoke the spirits; and yes, the asari invoke the goddess; but we’ve never seen a miracle. And I mean a classic miracle. Except maybe two pipes and a beam of light that can fundamentally alter the fabric of existence. So there's that.

Perhaps Shepard is experiencing a revelation—the Deity is revealing itself to Shepard the Shepherd. If so, the ending really is sad. And I don’t mean tragic, or a downer. I mean it’s sad because we’re seeing the end of BioWare’s run as the premier storyteller in video gaming. A pity.

Can't argue a thing, here. Genius. You should be a writer for them.

[RealStyli]

ilWarden wrote...

The argument that the 'destroy' ending is the best, is flawed. The Catalyst himself says that the destroy option will wipe out all synthetic life, including the Geth - and then makes a point of saying: "even you are partly synthetic". (i.e. - choose this, you die.) So how then does Shep take a breath at the end, if you get 'the best' ending?

Also, Catalyst says: "This also proves our solution won't work anymore" Shep says: "So what now?" Catalyst says: "We find a new solution." We, he says. We meaning: reapers & catalyst? Or Catalyst & Shepard? If the latter, that doesn't really hold if he basically says: "Destroy, control, or synthesize."

Also, Shep says: "Wait, i thought the Citadel was the Catalyst." The Catalyst says: "No, it is a part of me." So if it is a part of him, and HIS solution is the Reapers. Then WHY did Saren, or Sovereign need to interact with the Keepers or the Citadel AT ALL to instigate the next harvest? Why would the Reapers need a vanguard at all? Why wouldn't this clever little Catalyst just have a timer, that says "Ok boys, 50,000 years have passed, come on back now. I've got several techno-savvy civilizations inhabiting me." Forget Sovereign being the scout for the rest of the Reapers as established in ME1. Forget about the signal needing to be broadcast out. The Catalyst could technically do it all his own. He could just evaluate who was inhabiting him, and then open the relay all his own to let the dark-space reapers through. That's order from chaos.
But what did Sovereign say in ME1? "THIS STATION IS MINE." But the Catalyst states that the Reapers are HIS solution. So which is it?

Sovereign also stated that each Reaper is independent, a nation unto themselves. Doesn't sound much like a good little servant drone for a higher power to me.

And Finally, and this is what really gets me:
When Shep expresses hesitance over synthesis, Catalyst says: "Why not? Synthetics are already a part of you. Can you imagine your life without them?" Soooo then why is the Catalyst harvesting anyone AT ALL? If he already sees that evolution is steering the various races into a synthesis, then his solution is redundant!! The Reapers are unnecessary! We should be able to point that out to him, but instead HE MAKES THE STATEMENT HIMSELF, CONTRADICTING THE PURPOSE OF HIS REAPERS and Shep just goes along with it.

Someone on Youtube commented to a video about the 'destroy' ending.
He says: "So wait, you could play paragon for the entire f***ing game, and then by going renegade at the end, you save the galaxy? Well ain't that some sh**". I had to laugh.

Under the Indoctrination Theory, the destroy option is the best because we assume that everything from when Shep got zapped by Harbinger is an illusion designed to get Shep to give in to indoctrination.

So, with regards to your first paragraph, the Child/Creator as a tool of the Reapers is lying in order to steer you away from that choice. Similarly, with regards to your last paragraph, it's not actually the Renegade option at all but you're made to think that it is because the Reapers don't want you to chose that option and break indoctrination. As you say, it claims that Shep is part synthetic, yet he lives.

Of course, that's just a theory and may or may not turn out to be the case but there's plenty of evidence to support the theory.

[Kesak12]

Dont think they looked at any of these comments if they think we only want "clarification".

[ilWarden]

I think something happened corporately. It had to have. The whole game/experience was a unified whole, up until about Harbingers beam attack, when storming the transporter beam.
Everything after that -- i don't know if it was budget, directorial decree, scheduling changes, or something -- but definitely something happened behind the scenes that isn't being owned up to.
I'd easily take an apology from Bioware saying something like:
"To all our fans - we've listened with regret & remorse to all your many comments about the ending of this game. Know that sometimes, in the biz, unexpected things can happen. Sometimes you realize the scope and grandeur of a project is becoming beyond a single companies ability to realize in the way we'd originally intended. Unfortunately this happened with Mass Effect. We wanted to be able to deliver the game to you in a respectable amount of time, and not keep it another two years in development.So we had to re-evaluate the way the endings would play out. We know it'd take sacrifice to some options we'd really wanted to express, but sometimes you have to make the hard choices - just like Shepard."
You know, something honest. Not just: "BioWare strongly believes in the team's artistic vision for the end of this arc of the Mass Effect franchise. The extended cut DLC will expand on the existing endings, but no further ending DLC is planned."
We're being artistic, you're being stupid, so we're going to explain it better.
If the DLC goes into the indoctrination theory though -- i'm going to laugh so hard. I would actually accept -that- as a better ending, too.

[ilWarden]

I think something happened corporately. It had to have. The whole game/experience was a unified whole, up until about Harbingers beam attack, when storming the transporter beam.
Everything after that -- i don't know if it was budget, directorial decree, scheduling changes, or something -- but definitely something happened behind the scenes that isn't being owned up to.
I'd easily take an apology from Bioware saying something like:
"To all our fans - we've listened with regret & remorse to all your many comments about the ending of this game. Know that sometimes, in the biz, unexpected things can happen. Sometimes you realize the scope and grandeur of a project is becoming beyond a single companies ability to realize in the way we'd originally intended. Unfortunately this happened with Mass Effect. We wanted to be able to deliver the game to you in a respectable amount of time, and not keep it another two years in development.So we had to re-evaluate the way the endings would play out. We know it'd take sacrifice to some options we'd really wanted to express, but sometimes you have to make the hard choices - just like Shepard."
You know, something honest. Not just: "BioWare strongly believes in the team's artistic vision for the end of this arc of the Mass Effect franchise. The extended cut DLC will expand on the existing endings, but no further ending DLC is planned."
We're being artistic, you're being stupid, so we're going to explain it better.
If the DLC goes into the indoctrination theory though -- i'm going to laugh so hard. I would actually accept -that- as a better ending, too.

[T-Raks]

Fixing the mistakes in the ending with a patch is what you could expect, so if they do this right, it'll be OK. Have to see the extended cut though before I can further comment. Will the ending be presented in a way that makes sense after all is the looming question. And it's an elephant in the room.

Especially doubtful to make sense is the scene with the squadmates and the Normandy flying away from the battle and everyone (even the two that should at least be badly wounded if not dead) being in great shape. I'm really curious how they will "clarify" that.

From the tone of the official blog entry I'm not too optimistic, but I'll give them every chance to right the ship, because this reaction seems to be the right one.

[eldingo12]

TheSchwarz wrote...

Making a really bad ending longer = not listening

[RealStyli]

Kesak12 wrote...

Dont think they looked at any of these comments if they think we only want "clarification".

This is what makes me think indoctrination was BioWare's plan all along.

It has been a relatively popular theory amongst fans and gels nicely with the ending and series to the extent that it could have been their intent from the beginning. There's certainly plenty of evidence that the whole citadel sequence is an illusion.

So, in that case, they would be clarifying the ending in a way that shows they were listening to fans but the fans just happened to figure out the real ending afterall.

That's what I think is a big possibility and I'd put money on it if I knew a bookmaker that would take that bet.

[Butane9000]

Bioware:
We're listening! Post your feedback here!

Ignores thread and never reads.

[rrtda]

[Damisis]

Go to the main news for ME3 and report the Extended Cut and report it as currupted/broken content. Get creative as to why. Flood their servers. Make our voices be heard.

[DarkFire77777]

Butane9000 wrote...

Bioware:
We're listening! Post your feedback here!

Ignores thread and never reads.

This times 1,000,000!

[survivor_686]

All hail Rule 34

[efive]

Eat **** bioware, you didn't listen to anything we said. I'm pretty sure 80% of the people who complained said they didn't want you to just clarify their **** ending. EA/Bioware is dead, RIP.

[DarkFire77777]

TheSchwarz wrote...

Making a really bad ending longer = not listening

This!This!This!

[Iconoclaste]

I just refresh the forum's titles page with "recent posts" filter, and see what's currently running. I doubt anyone at Bioware would like to post anything in the forums because it will quickly get flooded, if not on a "sticky" thread.

[DarkShadow]

Damisis wrote...

Go to the main news for ME3 and report the Extended Cut and report it as currupted/broken content. Get creative as to why. Flood their servers. Make our voices be heard.

Please don't do things like that. That forum function isn't made for that. Stay civil.

[Iconoclaste]

If they have been reading all that's been posted in the last weeks, the most "current" complaints are referring to "not understanding" the... (endings-related stuff). Huge amounts of speculation has been around, in fact too much to try to sort out on a tight schedule. Add to that there are new players reaching the endings everyday, and coming here to complain around issues that have been covered many, many times. By clearing the most obvious "item" from the list with "free clarification DLC", they might only be trying to narrow the issues.

[Archonsg]

GIEV DIZ PEEPHOLE AEYR wrote...

:-/ <------------ my reaction to the "new cinema" we will be getting. at least its free. if it sucks? well...........then im done. already cancelled old republic sub.

Yeah. I am surprised at myself too, that ME3's ending is actually affecting the other games I play, namely SWTOR, Kingdoms of Amalur and Skyrim at this point.

Haven't been able to log into swtor, just did not feel like it, much to my wife's displeasure, since we duo (sith sorc + jug) and seldom take on pick-ups.

Kindoms, have no mood to log in at all now too.

I'll wait for The Witcher 2's dlc-patch (10+ glorious gigs!) before I return to that world.

As for other Bioware games, as you can see from my BSN profile, I have both collector's editions and all DLCs for the Dragon Age series, but will probably not buy the 3rd installment. I will urge any who would listen, not to buy as well, since Bioware has shown just how far they have fallen, that they truly are disconnected from their core fans, fans who by word of mouth made them the success they are...were.

To throw away their hallmark of storytelling, choice and morality of said choices, epic victory as well as heroic sacrificial victories, and harp on "artistic integrity" for an ending that lacked those hallmark values, and ending that is so out of sync to the series, even the game it is in itself is just pride.

I can't help but think of a game called "Planescape : Torment", maybe you guys heard of it, yes?

That was how you did "bitter sweet" endings.

Mass Effect 3's ending sadly is so bad, you can't even pass it off as a joke. But you have made your decision. Now I'll need to exercise mine, and am truly saddened to lose you as a prefered company whose products I had always purchased in the past.


 
I should go.

[Disciple888]

1) Narrative coherence
2) Closure
..
...
...
324) Clarification

[Kesak12]

DarkShadow wrote...

Damisis wrote...

Go to the main news for ME3 and report the Extended Cut and report it as currupted/broken content. Get creative as to why. Flood their servers. Make our voices be heard.

Please don't do things like that. That forum function isn't made for that. Stay civil.

yes

[stellap20]

Iconoclaste wrote...

If they have been reading all that's been posted in the last weeks, the most "current" complaints are referring to "not understanding" the... (endings-related stuff). Huge amounts of speculation has been around, in fact too much to try to sort out on a tight schedule. Add to that there are new players reaching the endings everyday, and coming here to complain around issues that have been covered many, many times. By clearing the most obvious "item" from the list with "free clarification DLC", they might only be trying to narrow the issues.

Very good point but I have a feeling is hopefull feeling at the same time:(

[Iconoclaste]

stellap20 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

If they have been reading all that's been posted in the last weeks, the most "current" complaints are referring to "not understanding" the... (endings-related stuff). Huge amounts of speculation has been around, in fact too much to try to sort out on a tight schedule. Add to that there are new players reaching the endings everyday, and coming here to complain around issues that have been covered many, many times. By clearing the most obvious "item" from the list with "free clarification DLC", they might only be trying to narrow the issues.

Very good point but I have a feeling is hopefull feeling at the same time:(

I know. But is there any other way to go through this ?

[stellap20]

Iconoclaste wrote...

stellap20 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

If they have been reading all that's been posted in the last weeks, the most "current" complaints are referring to "not understanding" the... (endings-related stuff). Huge amounts of speculation has been around, in fact too much to try to sort out on a tight schedule. Add to that there are new players reaching the endings everyday, and coming here to complain around issues that have been covered many, many times. By clearing the most obvious "item" from the list with "free clarification DLC", they might only be trying to narrow the issues.

Very good point but I have a feeling is hopefull feeling at the same time:(

I know. But is there any other way to go through this ?


Not really but its good to see people that they see the cup half full instead of half empty:)

We will wait until PAX and go from there I think

[Iconoclaste]

I know from experience that the outcry will calm down a bit, then the "moderate" will come in to voice their opinion. Then, the focus will be back on reasonable assumptions. They cannot please each and everyone, they have the gaming press and the happy / unhappy players, plu$ the manager$ and corporate obligation$.

Let's assume they did not release this last statement (extended ending cutscenes) just to "appease" one of the main concerns of the fans. It could also be aimed at stimulating further discussions, just "baiting the fish" to get more ideas from those who are not included in the "clarification" category. Jessica Merizan was on twitter earlier today, and wrote that it was possible for Shepard to still live at the end, even to reunite with stranded squadmates, that nobody was going to starve to death from the destruction of mass relays, that the explosions did not destroy the whole systems, that depending on choices made by players, it might even be possible to rebuild relays, etc.

If this is true, even just partly, then it looks better than nothing, and leaves room for expectations.