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On the Mass Effect 3 endings. Yes, we are listening.


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#14701
Holger1405

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Schwegs wrote...




Bioware,

Your claim of "responding to the feedback" is an outright lie. Yes, you are responding. But in no way to the feedback.

The community feedback has never stated that the endings need more closure, cinematics, or epilogue scenes. The feedback has always been that the community does not approve of the ending at all, and game needs a different ending. 



I read that a lot.
Sorry but you are not the Community. You are the People who don't like the endings. You have every right to do so, and you have every right to speak out about it, but they are a lot of People in the Community who didn't dislike the endings, or at least, not nearly as much as you guys.
So please stop pretending that you are speaking for the whole Community. 

#14702
Xenite

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It's painfully obvious this thread was completely ignored, what they announced has nothing to do with what fans were protesting.

Good luck trying to clarify a broken ending that the vast majority despise and believes ruins all three games. Space magic is space magic regardless of the explanation.

#14703
katamuro

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Xenite wrote...

It's painfully obvious this thread was completely ignored, what they announced has nothing to do with what fans were protesting.

Good luck trying to clarify a broken ending that the vast majority despise and believes ruins all three games. Space magic is space magic regardless of the explanation.


yup

#14704
StillOverrated

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Oh, and by the way, tracing someone else's endings is not art. it's what those whining little so-called 'anime artists' at deviantART do.

#14705
MyAwesomeAfro

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I'm majorly disappointed. This is not what we wanted at all. They are trying to clarify a completely broken ending by giving it closure?

Lazy.

The ending itself is a mess, the plotholes were secondary. I'm incredibly disappointed with this, and if this is all they have to give to us in light of all the protest.

I'm genuinely done with buying Bioware titles firsthand out of respect.

#14706
Temporal Loop

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And, all the other plot holes that I'm sure have been mentioned. For example, why does Miranda plant a tracker on Kai Lang - the first time you see her, she's in TIM's base. Why doesn't she just tell you where it is?


All I have is...his base is on the move constantly?

#14707
Caprea

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Holger1405 wrote...
I read that a lot.
Sorry but you are not the Community. You are the People who don't like the endings. You have every right to do so, and you have every right to speak out about it, but they are a lot of People in the Community who didn't dislike the endings, or at least, not nearly as much as you guys.
So please stop pretending that you are speaking for the whole Community. 


I don't think they do or intend to do so. It's just plain obvious that a majority of the people who played the game don't like the ending(s). Take a look at polls, forums, articles, blogs everywhere, written by outraged and butthurt fanbrats as well as more mature people and journalists whose criticism is actually well-founded. Take a look at all those and you know what I mean. Never in my experience as a gamer have I seen such a ****storm about the way a game ended.
Sure, not everyone in the community thinks that way, but the majority of the community does. Like it or not.

Modifié par dea_ex_machina, 06 avril 2012 - 11:29 .


#14708
MyAwesomeAfro

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Okay,I just read the official statement.

I'm genuinely, Genuinely disappointed in Bioware. Not only were we ignored but they putwords into our mouths. No other developer has such a loyal fanbase. How could they just rip us off like this.

Ugh.

#14709
Redshirt-1701

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Chrislo1990 wrote...

Redshirt-1701 wrote...

Obviously when you said you were listening to us you lied. This all just boggles my mind. When I came to the ending I was at first shocked that Bioware ended the triology this way. At first I thought that this must be a red hearing. After all how can a group of people who handled the first 95% of the game so masterfully deliever such an illogical, and nonsensical ending? I figured that this must all be part of a plot from either Bioware or more likely EA to get us to buy some multiple ending DLC packs later on. A pricky thing to do, but in all honesty I would have bought it.

However, I then began reading the comments from the Bioware people, especially Casey Hudson, who were defending the ending as artistic merit. Still I grew more hopeful that with every person writing in and complaining that the ending did not make sense in light of both previous games and what had been promised to us that Bioware would make things right with us the customers. As the current statement from Bioware outlines though I was very wrong in my belief. Wrong to place my hope and trust into a company that until this very statement came out had believed to be a leading example of what gaming companies should aspire to. A company that has produced so many award winning games and who has shown time and again that they are masters of storycraft. One only needs to look at the Tuchanka campaign in ME 3 to see the validity of this statement. The writers took into account every possible action a gamer could make. Was Wrex alive or dead, was Mordin alive or dead, did you destroy the research or not, did you warn Wrex of the Salarian plot? All of these choices were taken into account to bring the Genophage storyline to a resolution. This is not however what they did for the endgame.

Now once again Bioware is hiding behind the claim of artistic merit. Seriously? I'll grant you that artistic merit exists for 95% of the game, but the last 10 minutes or so flies so far in the face of artistic merit as to be insulting to artists. The endgame as mentioned makes no sense and is completly illogical. I won't go into detail of the the various arguments as to why that is the case. They have been stated now multiple times in various posts by me and hundreds of thousands of people. Suffice to say that narritive focus was lost, no closure for beloved characters, Joker abandoning his post, characters ending up on the Normandy when they were part of the ground attack on Earth (including two who were with me on the final assult with nary a badage between them), interstellar travel destroyed, the largest Fleet ever assembled in history traped in the Sol system, and massive amounts of exploded Relay and Citadel debris blasting through space with sufficent size and velocity to cause planetary level extinction. Presuming of course that a Relay blowing up doesn't automatically destroy a whole solar system to begin with (The Arrival DLC I am looking at you). These are mearly a few of the large number of gaping plot holes that Bioware is appearently going to explain, not fix mind you, but explain.

In addition to all of that Casey Hudson is on public record as stating that the ending would take into account all the choices made within all three games. That the ending would not be a simple A, B, C. However, this was also a lie becaue all we got was an A, B, C ending. Some people have claimed that this ending still reflects a choice that the gamer can make and thus still results in multiple endings. This however is incorrect. When all paths are of equal distance, difficulty and lead to the exact same destination choice is irrelavant. Why should I have bothered to befriend Legion, create peace between the Geth and Quarians, assist Edi with developing her humanity if in order to destroy the Reapers I have to wipe out all artifical life? Why should I go though the entire game showing that diversity makes us stronger and will ultimately win out against the Reapers only to create some borgified lifeform that wipes out all diversity. No matter how much I loved ME1, 2 and most of 3, I cannot shake the feeling now that I have wasted nearly 8 years of my life waiting for a grand payoff to a fantastic story that now will never come.

Finally I ask Bioware how does creating multiple endings for the game destroy artistic merit? After all multiple endings tend to be the hallmark of the type of games you make. Staying in the Mass Effect universe ME2 was claimed as a suicide mission in which any and all of the characters could be killed, including Sheppard. However, if you did everything right you could save your crew and complete the mission. If you love your ending so much, well great! Bully for you! How about this though you give us what you promissed and what we paid for. Because I promise you this, gaming companies come and go at the drop of a hat. Bigger companies with much larger pedigre than your own have had to close their doors overnight. We are your customers, clinging to artistic merit will be cold comfort when you are out looking for work because of stuborn pride. Look at these message boards on your site and how many people are teling you that they are no longer planning to buy your products. Do you really think that alienating your customers is the wisest course of action?

The good news is that you still have time to fix this. Pull your heads out of your asses, admit you messed this up, fix the problem, give your cutomers what was promissed and we will forgive you. We will stay loyal. We will buy your stuff. Otherwise, there are plenty of other gaming companies I can always spend my money on, and I won't be alone. Good luck, and make the right choice. Don't loose your head.

Wow that was beautiful. Everything I've been saying all this time you've managed to say on just one post. Sure it's long but it's  direct and loaded with valid arguments. Very impressive. I'm going to quote you on other threads if that;s ok with you! Image IPB Once again excellent!


Glad you liked it.  It came from the heart.  Post it whereever you want.

#14710
Bludger133

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Holger1405 wrote...

I read that a lot.
Sorry but you are not the Community. You are the People who don't like the endings. You have every right to do so, and you have every right to speak out about it, but they are a lot of People in the Community who didn't dislike the endings, or at least, not nearly as much as you guys.
So please stop pretending that you are speaking for the whole Community. 


You don't get it do you?  If more than 50% of the community disliked the game, then those who are dissatisfied with it DO speak for the majority, and therefore DO represent the community.  Worse, if Bioware are about to screw up royally again and further disenfranchise their paying fanbase, they will have far less money to make games with in the future and the product YOU get will be worse for it.  

So, even if you were happy with a sub-standard product this time, the majority weren't and by not fixing it Bioware will lose and so will you - maybe not this time, but certainly next time.

Modifié par Bludger133, 06 avril 2012 - 11:51 .


#14711
stellap20

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[quote]Redshirt-1701 wrote...

[quote]Chrislo1990 wrote...

[quote]Redshirt-1701 wrote...

Obviously when you said you were listening to us you lied. This all just boggles my mind. When I came to the ending I was at first shocked that Bioware ended the triology this way. At first I thought that this must be a red hearing. After all how can a group of people who handled the first 95% of the game so masterfully deliever such an illogical, and nonsensical ending? I figured that this must all be part of a plot from either Bioware or more likely EA to get us to buy some multiple ending DLC packs later on. A pricky thing to do, but in all honesty I would have bought it.

However, I then began reading the comments from the Bioware people, especially Casey Hudson, who were defending the ending as artistic merit. Still I grew more hopeful that with every person writing in and complaining that the ending did not make sense in light of both previous games and what had been promised to us that Bioware would make things right with us the customers. As the current statement from Bioware outlines though I was very wrong in my belief. Wrong to place my hope and trust into a company that until this very statement came out had believed to be a leading example of what gaming companies should aspire to. A company that has produced so many award winning games and who has shown time and again that they are masters of storycraft. One only needs to look at the Tuchanka campaign in ME 3 to see the validity of this statement. The writers took into account every possible action a gamer could make. Was Wrex alive or dead, was Mordin alive or dead, did you destroy the research or not, did you warn Wrex of the Salarian plot? All of these choices were taken into account to bring the Genophage storyline to a resolution. This is not however what they did for the endgame.

Now once again Bioware is hiding behind the claim of artistic merit. Seriously? I'll grant you that artistic merit exists for 95% of the game, but the last 10 minutes or so flies so far in the face of artistic merit as to be insulting to artists. The endgame as mentioned makes no sense and is completly illogical. I won't go into detail of the the various arguments as to why that is the case. They have been stated now multiple times in various posts by me and hundreds of thousands of people. Suffice to say that narritive focus was lost, no closure for beloved characters, Joker abandoning his post, characters ending up on the Normandy when they were part of the ground attack on Earth (including two who were with me on the final assult with nary a badage between them), interstellar travel destroyed, the largest Fleet ever assembled in history traped in the Sol system, and massive amounts of exploded Relay and Citadel debris blasting through space with sufficent size and velocity to cause planetary level extinction. Presuming of course that a Relay blowing up doesn't automatically destroy a whole solar system to begin with (The Arrival DLC I am looking at you). These are mearly a few of the large number of gaping plot holes that Bioware is appearently going to explain, not fix mind you, but explain.

In addition to all of that Casey Hudson is on public record as stating that the ending would take into account all the choices made within all three games. That the ending would not be a simple A, B, C. However, this was also a lie becaue all we got was an A, B, C ending. Some people have claimed that this ending still reflects a choice that the gamer can make and thus still results in multiple endings. This however is incorrect. When all paths are of equal distance, difficulty and lead to the exact same destination choice is irrelavant. Why should I have bothered to befriend Legion, create peace between the Geth and Quarians, assist Edi with developing her humanity if in order to destroy the Reapers I have to wipe out all artifical life? Why should I go though the entire game showing that diversity makes us stronger and will ultimately win out against the Reapers only to create some borgified lifeform that wipes out all diversity. No matter how much I loved ME1, 2 and most of 3, I cannot shake the feeling now that I have wasted nearly 8 years of my life waiting for a grand payoff to a fantastic story that now will never come.

Finally I ask Bioware how does creating multiple endings for the game destroy artistic merit? After all multiple endings tend to be the hallmark of the type of games you make. Staying in the Mass Effect universe ME2 was claimed as a suicide mission in which any and all of the characters could be killed, including Sheppard. However, if you did everything right you could save your crew and complete the mission. If you love your ending so much, well great! Bully for you! How about this though you give us what you promissed and what we paid for. Because I promise you this, gaming companies come and go at the drop of a hat. Bigger companies with much larger pedigre than your own have had to close their doors overnight. We are your customers, clinging to artistic merit will be cold comfort when you are out looking for work because of stuborn pride. Look at these message boards on your site and how many people are teling you that they are no longer planning to buy your products. Do you really think that alienating your customers is the wisest course of action?

The good news is that you still have time to fix this. Pull your heads out of your asses, admit you messed this up, fix the problem, give your cutomers what was promissed and we will forgive you. We will stay loyal. We will buy your stuff. Otherwise, there are plenty of other gaming companies I can always spend my money on, and I won't be alone. Good luck, and make the right choice. Don't loose your head.


Beautiful just like Jacks poetry:P

#14712
Redshirt-1701

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Adding multiple endings does not change the "artistic merit" of the first ending. Keep it if you want, but allow us who want a different ending to have it. It was what was promised and frankly it is what we expect based on previous Mass Effect games.

#14713
Theronyll Itholien

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I cannot freaking believe the latest announcement.

And they DARE to claim they listened to our constructive feedback? I feel so horribly insulted its almost criminal. No matter how much you polish a turd, it's still SH*T!!!!!!!!

I'm done with those arrogant, condescending pricks. Like we needed an explanation to that clusterf*ck of an ending. Jesus effing christ....

#14714
TsubakiYayoi

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I think it isnt quite fair that so many people are now complaining even now when Bioware actually is doing something (even if its not that what we all want to hear -.-) FOR FREE FOR US. The time between Harbinger Beam and ABC choice is in fact the worst in my personal gaming history but if the closure and added scenes being good ones and we all see our little blue children in the end then maybe its not all that bad.

Modifié par TsubakiYayoi, 06 avril 2012 - 12:11 .


#14715
stellap20

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Theronyll Itholien wrote...

I cannot freaking believe the latest announcement.

And they DARE to claim they listened to our constructive feedback? I feel so horribly insulted its almost criminal. No matter how much you polish a turd, it's still SH*T!!!!!!!!

I'm done with those arrogant, condescending pricks. Like we needed an explanation to that clusterf*ck of an ending. Jesus effing christ....


Amen
:innocent:

#14716
Holger1405

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dea_ex_machina wrote...

Holger1405 wrote...

So, you want a perfect happy ending? imho that wouldn't fit the whole ME Story, but hey, it's your ending, so have a little faith, they defeated the Reapers, they will be able to build new Mass Relays.
 :-) 


I don't think the point is that fans wish for a "happily ever after" ending, but one that is coherent with your previous choices and playing style (during the game itself as well as the whole trilogy) - and not one with so many plotholes that you have to strain your grey matter like mad in order to make sense of what the heck happened the last few minutes. Or have someone else explain it to you or have a bunch of fans come up with a "It's all indoctrination, so it's all liez!" theory in order to at least try to get it straight.
The point is <not> sunshine and bunnies, the point is coherence and choice in the matter. Choice the fans were promised and hence, paid for, but weren't given at the end of the day.
Which leads me to your next statement:


I think Mass Effect has multiple endings, Bioware did not their best Job in making that clear. Something they can change with the DLC.


I don't know how you define "multiple", but starting from my definition of "multiple", I think you're right. The problem is that the multiple endings didn't defer from one another except for a few details like the colour of the explosion. So basically, the endings were <not> A/B/C, but rather A1/A2/A3. There wasn't a real lack of options, but a huge lack of difference between those options. No matter how you chose, it came down to the same: Shepard dead (or almost dead), Normandy crashed, crew survived. Where is the difference?


I think that "out there" are so many different opinions for a perfect ending of ME3 that Bioware never had a chance to do it right for everyone. Still, as I said before, Bioware could do better in delivering the endings, avoiding the plot holes, showing the fate of all squad mates, and so forth.

However imho the endings are not bad, they are vastly different, (again, Bioware could do better in making that more obvious) and the ending you get depends almost entirely on the "Effective Military Strength" points you have, and so, also, on the decisions you made in ME1, ME2 and ME3.

(Spoilers:  http://www.ign.com/w...fect-3/Endings http://www.raritygui...uide/Page1.html

Though, due to  the influence MP has on the Readiness count this, in my opinion good concept, is pretty much worn out.

#14717
tiita

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Xenite wrote...

It's painfully obvious this thread was completely ignored, what they announced has nothing to do with what fans were protesting.

Good luck trying to clarify a broken ending that the vast majority despise and believes ruins all three games. Space magic is space magic regardless of the explanation.


this!

#14718
DarkFire77777

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Bioware doesn't care anymore. The majority of Mass Effect fans HATE the ending. Yet they care more about their artistic vision. Bioware, your artistic vision doesn't mean crap if you don't have fans to buy your future games. I hope they make this right, but I doubt it. If they don't make this right, I will do everything I can to tell people how Bioware and EA screwed their fans.

#14719
Kurokenshi

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Thanks for "listening". Enjoy the massive hole that used to be a major part of your community.
Also next time don't wait a month before saying no, it doesn't help you in the long.

#14720
profis

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TsubakiYayoi wrote...

I think it isnt quite fair that so many people are now complaining even now when Bioware actually is doing something (even if its not that what we all want to hear -.-) FOR FREE FOR US. The time between Harbinger Beam and ABC choice is in fact the worst in my personal gaming history but if the closure and added scenes being good ones and we all see our little blue children in the end then maybe its not all that bad.

Аgree, but still I worry

#14721
Theronyll Itholien

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Kurokenshi wrote...

Thanks for "listening". Enjoy the massive hole that used to be a major part of your community.
Also next time don't wait a month before saying no, it doesn't help you in the long.


Listen carefully, fellow comrades in arms / gamers,

I don't say this whenever I'm pissed. In fact, this is the first time I say this ever: I am done with Bioware and I will not spend money to play their games anymore in the future.

And you know what the real laugh is? Deep inside I feel that it is not because the ending is an abysmal nightmare... but how Bioware has treated theirs fans of late. Creating a thread, saying "Yes, we are listening" only to shut us the f*ck up is something my self-respect cannot swallow.

The only reason I will prolly keep posting here is because I am still angry.. and probably will be for quite a while. This is a good place to vent my anger, among fellow people who understand how I feel.

Thanks for listening. ^^

#14722
LiarasShield

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Again How I have mentioned this how come these guys were not charged with fraud because they lied about their product post launch saying that are actions would effect the ending or that we wouldn't get a b c ending or that their might be 16 possiable different conclusions lieing to the fans and the gaming community sounds like major fraud and also potential lawsuits and I wouldn't ever put my self in that position that they really did

#14723
Canis_Major

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iDeevil wrote...

FamilyManFirst wrote...

iDeevil wrote...

And to who should they pay more attention too?


How about those who have posted constructive literary criticism?  The ending has huge plot holes.  An "extended ending" might be able to fill those holes ... but I consider it unlikely, as some of them are big enough for a Reaper to comfortably fly through.  The ending violates the Dramatic Arc by introducing a new character and new complexity during the Resolution of the story, which is precisely the wrong time to do so.  An "extended ending" can't fix that without getting rid of the "star child" character, which doesn't sound like something they're going to do.  The ending violates at least one major theme of the game, presenting a resolution to an "organic vs. synthetic" theme which doesn't exist, and offering conclusions that violate "freedom vs. control" (blue ending), "individuality vs. conformity" (green ending), and "redemption/awakening" (red ending) themes that have been built up through all 3 games.  An "extended ending" can't fix that at all without completely rewriting the "star child's" explanation of the Reapers and rewriting the final choices.

An "extended ending" can't satisfy the promises BioWare made of truly distinctive endings, based on your choices throughout the game, either.

Notice I said nothing about "loving" or "hating" the ending here.  I'm not suggesting that BioWare listen to those who hate the ending or those who love it.  I'm suggesting that they listen to those who have pointed out the literary deficiencies of their ending, and rewrite it appropriately.  If they want to have Shepard die, if they want to have the mass effect relays destroyed, if they want to have the entire remainder of the crew live happily ever after, that's their decision.  However, they should do it in a way that is consistent with the plot, themes, and Dramatic Arc of the rest of the game.  If they don't, then they are demonstrating that they can no longer write a good story, and I will treat further purchases from them accordingly.


I actually, totally 100% agree with you.  For me it wasn't the end games that was the problem, it was the fact that narratively we couldn't have gotten to that point in the first place.  That and we didn't have an ending epic battle either...

I'm a big fan, at this point, of giving us one more installement so they can write a proper conclusion, the is tested edited and works.  Anything else at this point cannot fix it - unless they plain on changing the whole story of the game in this DLC.


I agree with both of you. In fact, i started worrying when after 30 years studying the Prothean archives on Mars, it's now that they find a superweapon specifically designed against Reapers. Come on.

#14724
Holger1405

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dea_ex_machina wrote...

I don't think they do or intend to do so.


Well, he wrote "The community feedback" that's a pretty clear statement.  

It's just plain obvious that a majority of the people who played the game don't like the ending(s). Take a look at polls, forums, articles, blogs everywhere, written by outraged and butthurt fanbrats as well as more mature people and journalists whose criticism is actually well-founded. Take a look at all those and you know what I mean. Never in my experience as a gamer have I seen such a ****storm about the way a game ended.
Sure, not everyone in the community thinks that way, but the majority of the community does. Like it or not.


Or maybe the community members who didn't like the ending at all, are simply more eager to voice their opinion... 



However, my bottom line is, wait for the DLC, if you still not like the ending you can speak out, but criticizing Bioware, before you have a clue what they do with the DLC, is pretty immature

Modifié par Holger1405, 06 avril 2012 - 12:36 .


#14725
LiarasShield

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again they should've been charged with fraud for lying to everyone -_-