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On the Mass Effect 3 endings. Yes, we are listening.


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#15651
Changer the Elder

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jeweledleah wrote...

I'm amused that your examples involve games of very different genre.  red dead redemption is a western.  those are not known for being kind to their heroes, throughout.  so thematicaly, the ending there - fits.  infamous - much darker, dystopian game.
Mass effect is a space opera.  its Star treck mixed with Star wars of
our generation.  and those are generaly uplifting.  Mass Effect 1 has an
uplifting ending.  mass Effect 2 has an uplifting ending.  the theme
throughout the games seems to be - overcming impossible odds.


And I'm amused that the genre should define the outcome. I actually find RDR more of a kick since you can literally spend the whole game redeeming the character, making him a hero and a family man, only to get put down when you settle down and don't expect it. Here, you die for a cause you've been following since the start and the game keeps repeatedly warning you it has a solid chance to be a one-way trip.

In ME3, you have a fullscale war with Eldritch abominations where anyone and everyone can die. Your opponents are a sentient machines. Killing one of them took out more than a half of the largest security force of the galaxy (the citadel fleet). Killing about four hundred of them shouldn't be a piece of cake. If everything ended with a rainbow, it would just strike weird and denominate the Reapers' status as a major threat.

I keep hearing the complaints about how writers were promising something they didn't keep. Well, there's been one promise no one can argue they kept - that you'll have some tough choices to make. It was hard choosing whom to sacrifice on Virmire. Under circumstances, it can be tough to decide whether to help the krogan or listen to the dalatrass, whether to deny the geth the life they've earned or let the quarians go out in a blaze of stupidity/glory (hell, I still do have a guilty conscience over that one). And it resonates just right with the series to giving you the choice whether to save yourself, doing what you came to do (kill the reapers and keep the galaxy's status quo) but sacrificing geth/EDI in the process, or giving your life up.

And well, you can't say you haven't been warned. Both devs and the game itself repeatedly warned you it was coming. ME3 had several dialogues on that matter.

P.S: Of course, there's nothing wrong with having a happy ending. But there's equally nothing wrong with having a bittersweet one.

Modifié par Changer the Elder, 08 avril 2012 - 11:33 .


#15652
GarrusVFan

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 I just finished watching IGN's video on the ME3 Ending dlc, (
 ) and there's a few things about all of this that I dislike more and more each time I think about it.

1. The devs behind the endings: Okay...so you're telling me, with ALL THE PLOT HOLES that exist in the current endings, the FACT that NONE of what the player did throughout 1, 2 and 3, really made NO difference concerning the endings (aside from insignificant little changes) , you (The Devs) thought it was a GOOD IDEA TO END IT THAT WAY!?!?!?!  

"We think we we've struck a good balance in delivering the answers players are looking for while maintaining the team's artistic vision" -Ray Muzica, Bioware Studio Founder

*SARCASTIC LMFAO FOLLOWED BY DOUBLE-HANDED FACEPALM*

So many lies, so many bad decisions made by the devs... really wth were you all thinking?  

It doesn't make sense, at all.  It's like the entire team was indoctrinated into believing the current endings were acceptable and good endings.

Speaking of "Indoctrination", you all should have just taken that theory and run with it, even if it wasn't your idea originally, you could have passed it off without any legal issues arriving in the future.  It was a solid theory, and you could have done miraculous things with it concerning the "new endings".

The worst part, they aren't actually changing the endings.  It's just "explaining it" to the fanbase.  "You don't understand our brilliance, let us hold your hand and explain it slowly..."

WE DON'T WANT A BLOODY EXPLINATION!!!!!!!  We want to a GAINT F-U to the "God child", we want to destroy Harbinger personally and send the Reapers running!  We want to see the result of finally re-uniting the Geth and Quarians, and the Krogans recover, and Earth being rebuilt!  We want that happy ending with our love interest, that we spent 100+ HOURS AND 3 GAMES TO GET!!!!!!!

#15653
epicalus

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( first i'd like to say i'm not the best at writing things out . but i'm gonna try.)
(usually i tend to leave things out becausse i get ahead of myself)

i've been following , well not following exactly bioware since baldurs gate II
didn't play all there games .
but i liked what i played.
baldurs gate II
dragon age , 2
mass effect , 2 , 3
knights of the old republic , 2

i always found bioware's endings to be , off . but still okay for an ending.

i learned about mass effect maybe half a year before mass effect 2 came out.
it was right about the time i got tired of world of warcraft wich ,
grinded away 5-6 years of my life .
and i never felt like i achieved anything there.
and a friend of mine from world of warcraft .
adviced me to get mass effect .
god i didn't want to .
but then he bought it for (can't remember exactly ) christmas?
anyways i got actually playing the game and i got as far as the ,
first time you visit the citadel . got kinda boring at that point.
so i quit , played other games until one day i got bored of those.
so i went back to mass effect , thinking might aswell .
i simply played through the citadel part still bored but with ,
a little determination to get past it .
looking back now on the first visit to the citadel ,
i actually liked it , like the calm before the storm.
eventually when i got the freedom to fly around the galaxy.
the galaxy started opening up for me . their galaxy .
i was in awe with the detail that had gone into the game.
and i enjoyed every minute of it .
heck i was glued to my screen the whole time .
and then the ending came .
i was like OMG this is awesome .
finally an ending that didn't bother me in some way.
i also enjoyed all the conversations you have with other caracters.
it gave the game so much more depth and detail.
somewhere i started caring about the characters in a way i never did before.
ofcourse like allot people i romanced liara , the seemingly innocent girl.
she got me smiling with every conversation , eventhough i felt the weight of the galaxy on my shoulders.

and then there was mass effect 2 .
the whole dying and coming back to life through a shadow organisation i dispised .
felt kinda cheap and eary .
but the depth that event gave to mass effect 2 was breathtaking.
the combat system was improved . i disliked the combat system of mass effect 1.
the content in mass effect 2 really expanded the galaxy i came to love in mass effect 1.
and the sheer pressure of all the choices i could make , made me curious of what mass effect 3 would bring.
like mass effect 1 , mass effect 2 glued me to the screen for weeks .
and the suicide mission was impressive (no it was more then that).
i lost people ofcourse .
jack was among one of them . i hated her attitude throughout the game .
but the last thing she said to me : i wasn't supposed to care.
completely changed my opinion of her. i started to care about a character i didn't like .
so i went back and came up with a different plan .
and she didn't die .
this whole phenomenon came back the whole time through the suicide mission .
i lost legion aswell as i send him in to hack the doors .
what had i done ? i destroyed the only link i had to the geth.
to find out what they think or plan .
so i started again .
eventually i managed to save all of them .
that bioware was for me the moment that i thought .
omg they really delivered , these guys are awesome.
but i missed having liara around .
when you released the shadow broker dlc i was estatic .
having my LI with me for a whole mission . omg yes.
and i got to know her again , no longer that innocent girl i fell in love with .
but a grown woman , who saw the universe's darker side.
at first i thought i lose her , but when it was all over , there was my liara again .
i fought harder to get back what i had lost . didn't even care about the rest .
i was so focussed on reconnecting with liara that i fought anything to just have a minute alone with her.
and then the fight was over and it seemed i was gonna lose her again .
even when it all seemed to fall into place . i still had to leave her on that ship.
she came up to the normandy for a while , just talking and then it happened.
the joke that never got out of my head.
liara : what will you when all of this is over.
sheppard : i dunno , settle down , have allot of blue babies.
from then on that was my goal . that was what i was fighting for .
to give sheppard and liara that future.

i'm gonna wrap this up a bit quicker .
mass effect 3 finally came and it was heartbreaking , tears spilling like a fountain .
the impending doom constantly breaking down my internal barriers .
and they broke with curing the genophage as mordin unwaveringly walked to his death .
selfless , happy .
bringing peace to the geth and quarians .
to see tali on her homeworld , hearing her talk about the house she wants.
giving her that rock , so she could take a piece of her homeworld with her.
again you broke through my barriers like a knife through butter.
i worked so hard to get every single piece , every single ship .
every single soldier to follow me in the last battle .
thinking oh my god , its finally happening .
i'm finally gonna give sheppard and liara that future.
erm no . that didn't happen .
following the path i was one , i should chose for control.
wich left me utterly devistated.
so i went back and tried Synthesis and again i felt devistated .
again i went back like i did in mass effect 2 and chose Destroy .
hoping that it might give me what i wanted.
but oh wait , i just killed the geth and edi and the citadel exploded so hmm yea its over.
theres no way to get that future . i was so depressed . i coulden't think about anything else but the endings.
even now weeks afther the event i still can't get it out of my mind.
and then the strangest thing happend . sheppard in rubble taking a breath .
i was like , omg maybe i can , but wait the relays are gone and liara's on a different planet . dammit .
afther weeks of pondering the endings and breaking it down .
it started to feel weird , unreal .
i started thinking about the child and how it looked like the catalyst .
i started to analyse what the catalyst told me and it made no sence .
why didn't the reapers turn against the catalyst ?
why isn't it seeing the quarians and geth working together ?
what is this about synthetics and organics always fighting and eventually synthetics killing off all organic life?
i needed proof . but there was no proof .
why go through all those cycles only to clean up afther each one and leave nothing behind of a warning .
a warning stating not to build synthetics.
at that point i was breaking down everything , how did the illusive man control sheppard?
for that matter how did he control anderson .
small things started to come up that didn't make sence .
it wasn't much later that the word indoctrination hit me .
so i started looking on the web and found allot of people agreeing with the idea .
going so far to make videos that explain it all .
ofcourse i watched them and it gave the most clarity on the endings as to why sheppard took that breath .
or why there was only one hallway when i got the citadel , the contradictions of talking to anderson as i walked that hallway.
seeing parts of the shadow broker ship in that chasm.
the carefully planned scene's that point to the obvious . why was sheppard bleeding from her side and not her shoulder?
why did harbinger leave? why am i accepting the crusibles logic when as a person it didn't make sence?
if i can see the broken logic then that means my sheppard can see it , becausse i am my sheppard.
why are there 3 choices when it was announced publicly that there are 16 different endings .
why are the endings only variations of a single ending ?
there not different endings , there variations of 1 single ending .
yes yes you can show me 16 files . but there still variations on 1 ending . not 16 different endings .
why was there no epilogue ?
theres too much to name up . so yes i now believe in the indoctrination theory .
and how it is a form of art . should i use that word ? yea i see the indoctrination theory as art.
and then i was disappointed again , when the extended cut was announced .
your not saying it is indoctrination or that it isn't. you know saying things like this is pretty much like saying nothing at all.
becausse it leads to confusion and you really didn't say anything .
so i ask you here and now . what do you think about the indoctrination theory ? is it good/bad . did it ever spin in your mind? at all?

i've been a fan of mass effect and i've been so happy that you listen to your fans .
but the last weeks contradict this completely . are you listening ?
your listening but only hear what you want to hear?
i'm glad your doing something (extended cut) but its not what the fans ask for .
were asking for a new ending .
why ? becausse the current ending makes no sence . the whole new central conflict doesn't make sence.
unless you were to go back to the other games and implement someting that refers to it . i need proof .
why do i say go back ? becausse if the catalyst tells me or shows me anything along those lines.
i will dismiss it as a bunch of lies ? becausse , hello he's the only thing standing between me and the destruction of his reapers.
so anything he says are lies.
why did sovereign say the chaos of organic evolution .
lets analyse that .
chaos of organic evolution .
what does that mean ? what is that ? well its the total randomness of organic evolution .
i even went as far to talk to complete strangers and later on friends and ask them the meaning of the chaos of organic evolution.
and they said exactly what i said . the randomness of organic evolution.
wich sounds completely racist but okay. (i know i'm tapping into someone else his post)
note he didn't say anything about technology , wich makes the catalyst's words , lies.
its like sovereign said , we want to eventually be the only race in the galaxy .

i Believe in the indoctrination theory and its the only thing i have ever believed in , in my life.
if the extended cut doesn't refer to it . then i'll dismiss it and i'll be right back here .
pointing out mistakes and breaking down the ending .
i'm sure you noticed fans leaving bioware behind . and personally i'm gonna have a stricter look at anything you release afther mass effect 3.
maybe i'll buy em , but when the prices dropped to its all time low.
what i'm saying is . i'm on the line and i can go both ways , away from you or closer to you .
your extended cut will define that choice. i know i'm giving you an ultimatum . but hey it happens .
you have a choice here . that quick stack of money , or your fans . money doesn't make you happy . fans cheering at you does.
i told you what i want , a new ending . or at least an ending where i can give sheppard and liara those blue babies.
like i said , that became my goal the moment sheppard said it .
i'm gonna leave it at this , you've got allot of fans to listen to . if your still listening .

#15654
jeweledleah

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@ Changer - I'm just going to quote this post, becasue it creates a nice summary.

No_MSG wrote...

I have a big problem with Shepard having to die in the endings. Not the fact that Shepard is dying, that should happen, given certain variables. It just felt really, really forced. Same with the choices. They didn't flow right, it seemed more like they HAD to have choices, so here you go. And that's all Deus Ex Machina vas Genocide gives you. You MUST die, because you have to. You MUST choose, because you have to. So, I have three equally repulsive choices, and all three lead with my death. How about... no.


and yes, genre SHOULD dictate the the type outcome.  when your write a story set in a certain type of universe, following certain type of rules, you have to be very very careful when breaking them.

Mass Effect 2 also talks a lot about suicide missions, not coming back, etc.  all.  the. time.  but Shepard does the impossible... again.  and comes back.  potentialy with no casualties.  Mass Effect 1 - you can save everyone BUT one person, and even with that person, you have a choice.  (still I always found that death to be forced, it could have been set up MUCH MUCH better, and there's cut, voiced dialogue that suggests, that Shepard originaly was able to save both)

like the person I quoted said - the biggest problem with Shepard dying was how forced it was. in all three choices.

why am I shooting that tube?  why am I walking TOWARDS that tube while shooting - I have a long range weapon.  how exactly will shepard control the reapers WHILE dead?  what exactly do they mean by "essence" and exactly how would a fully organic being with a bunch of implants become a template for  mixed DNA, and why must they die for it?  what scanning and replicating is not enough?

but taht's just part of the problem.  the whole ending was forced. 

P.S.  I don't have a problem with bittersweet ending as an option.  I liked heroic sacrifice in DAO.  a lot.  I have a problem with forcing one down everyone's throat  as the ONLY in a game that kept letting you overcome impossible odds, encouraging you even.  not to mention. where's the sweet?  all I saw was bitter.  I suppose explanations will make it slightly less bitter by saying - don't worry, relays didn't wipe out the civilization and they just so happened to bring enough supplies with them not to starve, and they will develop proper FTL technology JUST in time >_>

Modifié par jeweledleah, 09 avril 2012 - 12:01 .


#15655
Changer the Elder

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StillOverrated wrote...

Changer the Elder wrote...

StillOverrated: Thank you for your wall of text. This is proving to be an... englightening experience indeed! As it happens, I again forgot half my points while forging the answer, so feel free to poke and prod on everything you feel like it deserves it.

As longas you promise to do the same with my inane ramblings, commander. Discourse is fun.


I'll try my best. But I'm warning you, it's half past one in the morning, so my cognitive processors probably don't work that well anymore.

I figured Shepard was sort of a once-in-a-million-years kind of miracle person... thing, considering all he/she accomplished but we can argue here that these people have much better ways of keeping records than we have.

It's actually not important to keep the message, but to remember the conditions under which it was written. You could have a clear message saying "DON'T DO THIS, IF YOU WILL, WOE ON YOU, EVIL THINGS  ARE GOING TO COME AND EAT YOUR LIVER!" but centuries later, it would probably seen as a superstitious garbage. And as soon as there'd be at least one jerk trying to tempt fate, it would be one jerk too many.
Again, I know it's a bit black & white reasoning, but from what I've noticed, the Catalyst operates pretty much without any shades of grey, so as long as there's a risk, it wouldn't be worth taking for him. It. Duh, the nouns are going to drive me nuts one day.

Actually, I was refering to the Prothean war agains their own AI Javik mentioned rather than their fight with the Reapers. We all know they had no chance of winning that one. Then, again, I might have read your statement wrong. Please correct me if I did.

Prothean war against their own AI? You mean the zha'til and the zha? I'm not sure if they eradicated them in the end, but for the Reapers, that was presumably the fuse. And just as with geth just going defensive, just the chance that the next time something like that happens results in a catastrophy is probably enough.

Regardless of Shepard being everlasting, he/she doesn't have any evidence of the Holokid's logic being well... logical. In fact, according to Shepard's experience, it's quite the opposite. It makes no sense Shepard isn't able or willing to argue that there is always a way for all species to coexist peacefully. Especially so if Shepard is played as a paragon. It's just too big a character derailent for me not to be miffed about.

Yeah, as I said, that dialogue could've used an extra sentence or two, it felt a bit rushed.

But then couldn't Shepard use that against them? If your renegade/paragon score is high enough, you should be able to "talk them to death", like you did with Saren and TIMmy. It's just extremely baffling that you don't get the chance to, at least, question them considering all the information Shepard has to use against them. I know I'm repeating myself with this issue, but the thing I like the most about Mass Effect (or any BW game) is that dialogue is about as important as double-headshoting things with. That they ignored this so hard in the ending it hurts is a pity, really.

I think talking problems to death is an asari specialty... =)
Anyway, the Catalyst is not immune to that reasoning, as seen when he admits to know the cycle cannot go on forever, since the life keeps adapting itself to it. But then again, what reasoning could Shepard use not to be overruled by Catalyst's presumably bad experience? He could hardly cross his heart and say the civilizations are going to behave from now on.

But the thing is, they don't do anything. They're just numbers. Maybe it's because I had been spoiled by the suicide mission, but I felt my war assets were just sitting there, twiddling their thumbs. Why weren't there krogan ground forces with Shepard when he/she made the final push to the conduit? Why didn't the Rachni Queen send her soldiers to bolster the ground forces' ranks? The only acknowledgement that there's anything other than humans fighting you get is Joker mentioning them. It was lackluster. This is just my opinion, though.


Changer the Elder wrote...
That's what we'll presumably be getting from the Extended cut. Of course, I'm not arguing on the fact that it should've been in the basic game. But the schedule didn't permit it.


I definitely agree on the war assets appearing to be idle most of the game. I'm hoping (and many people out there will call me naive, but I prefer being naive than being a grouch) that's one of the things the extended cut might cover and we might actually get to see what were the Rachni doing, how did Kasumi end up, if Cortéz survived or what happened to Donnelly & Daniels after the Normandy's crash landing. And just as some people here refuse to be optimistic till the DLC proves them it's worth it, I refuse to be negative until it proves me wrong.

Now I know the game had been pushed back once and I was practically banging my head against a wall due to pure impatience, but I wouldn't have minded at all, and I'm pretty sure a lot of people agree with me here, if they'd pushed the release date back again in order to deliver us the best-quality product they can. If no one does, then I just made myself look like an idiot (what else is new?).

You're definitely not the only one. I wish they hadn't pushed the deadline and judging from some of their reactions, even some of the devs wish they didn't have to. Color me paranoid, but in that thing, I smell EA's influence.
But it was a bit of gamble. If they got delayed for the second time despite having a fixed date, it would've looked very bad. Just look at Diablo 3's pushback backlash. And that one didn't even have month announced before, let alone the exact date.
Of course, in retrospect, holding the line prove to be not as much of a good idea. But who knew before the fight, right?

I still think we should just pick the best minds of either side and sit them down to see if they can reach an agreement. I know it's an unrealistic and utopic idea, but nothing's ever been accomplished by screaming and flinging rocks at each other and it's clear that the most noticeable people, be them the majority or not, aren't interested in anything but, hence the small select group of people. 

I think Paragon Shepard would approve, anyway.

Definitely, but then again, who's to say whose minds are the best? One wrong choice and Bioware would be sitting in a room with a dynamite stick waiting to tick. And we wouldn't accomplish anything by sending a messenger relaying a wrong image...

My oh my, 2 AM. I should head to bed before faceplanting on the keyboard. Again.

Modifié par Changer the Elder, 09 avril 2012 - 12:07 .


#15656
Changer the Elder

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@ jeweledleah
You can survive in the destroy ending. But you have to sacrifice something for it. And no, you don't have to play multiplayer for it (I haven't touched it, yet I have unlocked that short cutscene). The point is, you won't get it for free. I personally chose Control, because technically, Shepard is not dead in that one, either, at least his mind presumably isn't, and it's not forcing evolution onto species without asking them. And being able to nitpick synthetics who'd wage wars in the future.

And as far as the "genre directs the plot" - I cannot reach an agreement with you on that one for philosophical reasons. The best books in my library consist of the polar opposite. Chris Claremont made X-Men a legend for breaking the cliches and set-in-stone rules for the superhero comics genre and building himself new ones. Terry Pratchett bends and twists the fantasy-genre rules up to eleven in his Discworld series. Yuri Cervenak and Andzrej Sapkowski build on and then break pretty much every genre-reliable trope in their Dark Lord / Witcher series respectively. Almost all the famous poets, writers, artists and other creators made their name by deviating from the norm.

Modifié par Changer the Elder, 09 avril 2012 - 12:17 .


#15657
Archonsg

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Changer the Elder wrote...

And well, you can't say you haven't been warned. Both devs and the game itself repeatedly warned you it was coming. ME3 had several dialogues on that matter.

P.S: Of course, there's nothing wrong with having a happy ending. But there's equally nothing wrong with having a bittersweet one.


The trouble is, the ending we got in ME3 wasn't bittersweet. It was just plain illogical, inconsistent to tone that the game set and just plain stupid. If the devs have to dip so far into "space fantasy" to end a SCIENCE-FICTION game, something is very wrong.

One of the best "bittersweet" endings came from a game that Bioware know very well. Its called "Planescape : Torment." 
THAT game was art. 
It was unappreciated at the time it was released, because, you could practially talk your way through the whole game with combat usually only used as a last resort. Death was also approached in a novel way. 

Mass Effect 3's ending however just simply does not make any sense. 

IF Shepard is alive as it would allude to, if you have 5000+ ems , why does ems dictate that you can survive the following, I can't begin to wonder. So if chose the destroy option, with high enough EMS, a body that is supposed to be Shepard is seen to  take a breath and is cut / fade to black.

So, what I would like to know is how, Shepard without any armor, or EVA protection, who was on the Citadel moments before it was destroyed, can survive being Spaced, survive re-entry into Earth's atmosphere, then somehow ignore termimal velocity and impact onto rubble. 

How, does synthesis stop, war with synthethics when technically we all become synthetics in a manner of speaking and since when being the "same race" has ever stop us from killing each other?
Remember, Synthesis is essentially making everyone Racially the same, not change their ideaology, their prejudice or any other pre-conceptions or hatred for clans / peoples outside their own culture.

And don't get me started on the utter sillyness of having circuitry grafted into organic matter at the molecular level. Because if you even accept this "synthesis option" for what it is, you better think about the flip side of the equation. Synthetics gaining organic properties such as skin, flesh, heart, lungs, blood and yes, ORGANS. 

Control option says you control the reapers. But you loose everything that you are. And die. if you are dead, how are you controling the reapers? If its just your thought pattern that is needed, why must you die? And if you are no longer the person you are, (as I understand that by "loosing everything that you are" to mean) then why would you care if the Reapers actually kill a bunch of organics?

Just of a few paradoxes that, seriously, should not even have been introduced into the last 10 mins of play if at all. All from "The Ending".

I will download and play the "extended cut" ending, after all it will be free. But I really don't think they will be able to "clarify" away nonsense.

And YES, if they were willing to put out a complete overhaul of the ending in an "Alternate Endings DLC" I would have paid for it, if only so that the Mass Effect Series wouldn't have such a shameful end.

#15658
Changer the Elder

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Archonsg wrote...

IF Shepard is alive as it would allude to, if you have 5000+ ems , why does ems dictate that you can survive the following, I can't begin to wonder. So if chose the destroy option, with high enough EMS, a body that is supposed to be Shepard is seen to  take a breath and is cut / fade to black.

So, what I would like to know is how, Shepard without any armor, or EVA protection, who was on the Citadel moments before it was destroyed, can survive being Spaced, survive re-entry into Earth's atmosphere, then somehow ignore termimal velocity and impact onto rubble.

Damn if I know. I'm not saying the existing endings don't have plotholes. You're reacting on me disputing whether it's good or bad not to have a happy ending in this game. I'm not going to argue the execution of those ideas was far from flawless.

How, does synthesis stop, war with synthethics when technically we all become synthetics in a manner of speaking and since when being the "same race" has ever stop us from killing each other?
Remember, Synthesis is essentially making everyone Racially the same, not change their ideaology, their prejudice or any other pre-conceptions or hatred for clans / peoples outside their own culture.

But here I am going to argue a bit. Synthesis is not meant to make permanent peace, it's supposed to stop the war synthetics vs. organics that could eventually lead into organic life getting their ass kicked and synthetics eredicating evolution principle from the galaxy. Now when everything's both ways, they can happilly kill each other and life will still go on, since no matter who wins the war, it's going to be a hybrid, not a machine. Therefore, Reapers will no longer be needed.
I don't understand why the Citadel blows in that one though...

Control option says you control the reapers. But you loose everything that you are. And die. if you are dead, how are you controling the reapers? If its just your thought pattern that is needed, why must you die? And if you are no longer the person you are, (as I understand that by "loosing everything that you are" to mean) then why would you care if the Reapers actually kill a bunch of organics?

Analogus to ascension, common sci-fi trope. It's quite popular for a character to become a higher being, usually omniscient/seeing bigger picture than the general populace. Some (cue Daniel Jackson) become irritatingly annoying in the process...

#15659
Archonsg

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Changer the Elder wrote...

@ jeweledleah
You can survive in the destroy ending. But you have to sacrifice something for it. And no, you don't have to play multiplayer for it (I haven't touched it, yet I have unlocked that short cutscene). The point is, you won't get it for free. I personally chose Control, because technically, Shepard is not dead in that one, either, at least his mind presumably isn't, and it's not forcing evolution onto species without asking them. And being able to nitpick synthetics who'd wage wars in the future.

And as far as the "genre directs the plot" - I cannot reach an agreement with you on that one for philosophical. The best books in my library consist of the polar opposite. Chris Claremont made X-Men a legend for breaking the cliches and set-in-stone rules for the superhero comics genre and building himself new ones. Terry Pratchett bends and twists the fantasy-genre rules up to eleven in his Discworld series. Yuri Cervenak and Andzrej Sapkowski build on and then break pretty much every genre-reliable trope in their Dark Lord / Witcher series respectively. Almost all the famous poets, writers, artists and other creators made their name by deviating from the norm.


Deviate yes, but not change how the way things work within that world. 
Unless you factor in "magic".
Even so, Terry Pratchett for example has certain set of rules he follows, and sticks to them, bending BUT NOT BREAKING those rules he set for himself and the world he writes about. 

The Mass Effect ending, breaks all rules the game has set prior to the event. 

Lets face it, the ending was done in such a way as to give the player the "best" visual "wow factor" and had nothing or little to do with the science fiction rules set down by the game itself and its two previous chapters. 

Shepard's death, the Citadel destroyed, exploding relays, the Normandy vs Shockwave chase, even landing on a lush green habitable planet were all done to "wow" the player but not a single iota of sense, lore, and plain old fact check was done to see if all this would actually make sense.

In other words, they went "Holywood" and made what was a really good hard sci-fi (think Babylon 5) game and story into something worse then a "B" grade sci-fi movie ( think Barbarian women from the Planet Pluto or similar). 

Modifié par Archonsg, 09 avril 2012 - 12:22 .


#15660
Daramatis

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I just completed my first run-through last night, after more than 108 hours of play - yup, I'm an avid roleplayer who saves far-too-often, replays character conversations, explores every corner possible and speaks to everyone at every opportunity, and I have to say that it was an amazing emotional rollercoaster.

From frustration at the start because of the face-import issue, which I unfortunately fell foul of, through a good number of utterly magnificent, emotional character driven sections (such as Morden mentioning the sea shells brought a lump to my throat, then wistfully insisting he had to go as someone else might get it wrong setting off my tears; Anderson's gut-wrenching final scene which was so painful to watch), through to the sacrifice of the ending(s), and the ambiguity and questions they brought up.

For me, possibly the best moment was the introduction of Kaidan as a gay love interest, which I didn't know about until I had the conversation with him on the Citadel. I have the Collector's Edition guide which seemed to suggest he was only available to female Shepards, so I was totally unprepared for his revelation, I was amazed, stunned! I even checked the forums to make sure I hadn't done something wrong and had encountered a bug! To put this into context, as a gay man and long-time gamer I've been used to having to role play heterosexual in games - no real big deal for me, opened my eyes to "the other side of the fence". :)

I remember some of the forum activity when gay relationships were mooted for ME2, and when "alien sexual activity" was reported in some media in a somewhat hysterical way. So to discover that the character I was drawn to the most from ME1, and who I had imagined my Shepard being closest to through the entire story arc, had most empathy for, could be romanced, that was a hugely memorable moment for me, as a gamer and as a gay man in society - important because of the bravery of Bioware to address this issue, to take a chance at possibly alienating some players with no guarantee of a countering positive reaction - Bioware didn't have to add this, I'd have played it, indeed was playing it without knowing this was possible. And the gentle, respectful way it was handled was beautiful - not gratuitous but emotionally tender - the voice actors (Mark Meer and Raphael Sbarge) did a breathtaking job of conveying the emotional content of the romance scenes - my utter thanks and respect to the writers, actors and graphics dept. for capturing these moments - from the minute facial expression changes - Shepard's initial surprise at the revelation, to the smile of understanding he felt the same, to the smile when Kaidan comes to his cabin and distracts him at the door with a bottle of wine, the playful but charged love scene, to the final conversation in London and one last kiss.

This made the end of Shepard really painful for me, knowing that relationship was ending - but indicated there was some flaming good, strong story-telling going on because I felt that emotional response.

I do have one question - I understand from the guide and vids on the net that Shepard can survive given certain conditions - one of which is the Readiness rating. I'm not a multiplayer kinda guy, just doesn't do it for me, and I saw a posting elsewhere stating that it was possible for single player to get the optimal ending without getting more than the default 50% modifier. Unfortunately I topped-out at 3,652 (or thereabouts) readiness, but the guide states the survival ending is at 4,000, which I think I can only get with MP. Probably not the correct forum for this question, and my apologies if not, but does anyone know if importing the ME3 character into a second play-through will yield more assets so that my single player game can achieve the Shepard Lives outcome?

Oh, I know there are bigger questions and concerns about the endings, but I'd just so like to have the possibility of a positive ending with Shepard and Kaidan surviving because we've borne witness to so much death and carnage, not least the utter devestation through London, at the beam, and then on the reorganised Citadel - when the Prothean VI said the Reapers had taken the Citadel I have to admit I felt a little sick, envisaging the number of people there, characters we knew, but also the scale - not planetary I know, but the difference being we had ran past a few of them, heard their conversations, interacted with them. So a little hope on a small scale for two characters finding some rest after saving the galaxy is all I'd like.

Especially as the world is scheduled for demolition in December 2012 to make way for a hyperspace bypass, or could that be by Reaper? Look to the skies!

If you get this far, then I appreciate you taking the time to read my rambling.

:)

#15661
xsamplexample

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 I saw a vague parallel between the Reaper's provision of advanced technology and their punishment for its misuse (creation of synthetics) and the Christian 'Garden of Eden' story.  Did you guys intend this?  You guys had such a coherient story going; why shoot all those plot holes so late in the trilogy?  I hope ME3: Extended Cut makes sense.  :unsure:

#15662
jeweledleah

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Changer the Elder wrote...

@ jeweledleah
You can survive in the destroy ending. But you have to sacrifice something for it. And no, you don't have to play multiplayer for it (I haven't touched it, yet I have unlocked that short cutscene). The point is, you won't get it for free. I personally chose Control, because technically, Shepard is not dead in that one, either, at least his mind presumably isn't, and it's not forcing evolution onto species without asking them. And being able to nitpick synthetics who'd wage wars in the future.

And as far as the "genre directs the plot" - I cannot reach an agreement with you on that one for philosophical reasons. The best books in my library consist of the polar opposite. Chris Claremont made X-Men a legend for breaking the cliches and set-in-stone rules for the superhero comics genre and building himself new ones. Terry Pratchett bends and twists the fantasy-genre rules up to eleven in his Discworld series. Yuri Cervenak and Andzrej Sapkowski build on and then break pretty much every genre-reliable trope in their Dark Lord / Witcher series respectively. Almost all the famous poets, writers, artists and other creators made their name by deviating from the norm.


you need 4000 EMS.  either its bugged, or its impossible on single player alone. starchild tells Shepard that they die in all endings.  control included.  and even if we assume, that Shepard is only mostly dead - its no longer Shepard.  might as well be dead.

as far as breaking the rules? 

good writers know how to bend them.  but they also know that they have to have that framework BEFORE they can bend them, to understand how they can do it without breaking the narative in a process.  and if you read a fantastic post from another writer, you'll see how the ending of ME3, breaks them in all the wrong ways.  coherence and cohesion is the name of the game.

Mass Effect does break a lot of tropes.  and in places, it does it exceptionaly well.  ending?  is not one of those places.

edited, also - what Archonsg  said

P.S. one of the analysis of writing I was talking about http://jmstevenson.w...-mass-effect-3/ 

another is a 40 minute video

Modifié par jeweledleah, 09 avril 2012 - 12:44 .


#15663
Guest_OrangeLazarus86_*

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If you truly were listening BioWare then you'd understand, we don't want an extension. We want an ending where there's either no Star Child or we can argue the Star Child's logic null and void because of the Geth if made peace.

Here's a video of how it should have went down.

www.youtube.com/watch

#15664
KitaSaturnyne

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It would certainly invalidate all the time we've spent playing the games if, on the quest to prevent a galactic extinction, we solved the problem by triggering a galactic extinction.

#15665
schwarzaj

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I'm going to try and make this quick.

If you are listening, Bioware, then please listen to me. I have been a fan of the Mass Effect franchise since ME1. I love everything about this franchise. I have personally bought every Mass Effect game and novel. I have purchased several of the action figures. I have purchased the comic books. I love both Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2. I love KOTOR.

When I played Mass Effect for the first time, I was going through a very hard time in my life. I'd rather not post details online, but just know that someone very close to me died of cancer. I know it may sound odd, but in a lot of ways, Mass Effect helped me through one of the hardest times of my life. This person and I loved Star Trek with a passion, and in Mass Effect, I saw a ton of similarities between the two. Yet, instead of being repainted concepts or ideas, Mass Effect was nearly 100% original. Every time I play a Mass Effect game, I always think how much that person would have enjoyed seeing the stories unfold. In Mass Effect 3, it seemed like everything was coming together, a culmination of all of the ideas, conflicts, and trials the story had presented, leading up to a satisfying resolution. Instead, all of the stories, all of the conflicts I had worked so hard to resolve amounted to nothing. Instead of my decisions through out the games mattering, I was forced to chose between three different colored explosions, resulting in the galaxy I loved to explore being destroyed, Shepard dead, and the Normandy stranded on some random world. I know you've come out and said that the destruction of the relays was different here, but in Arrival, the precedent was set so that destroying a Relay equaled the destruction of the surrounding solar system. You can try to explain this ending of yours all you want, the fact remains that the ending is terrible, and that you lied to us. I know that PR representatives for developers make outlandish promises all the time, but Casey Hudson specifically said that you would not force the player to have an ABC ending. But you did, and because of that, you lied. That person I mentioned earlier would agree with me that your ending is terrible, that it isn't fulfilling to the audience or the consumer base as a whole. If you really are listening Bioware, stop making excuses. Stop trying to minimize our voices. Stop treating us like spoiled children. You lied to us about the ending, and your attempts at providing a balance between your so called "artistic integrity" and fan reaction is insulting to your fans and customers. The current ending is flawed, thematically wrong, and not acceptable in the overall Mass Effect franchise. If you want to know what should be changed, I'll give you a list:

1. Get rid of the hologram Kid.
Starchild is introduced in the last FIVE minutes of the game. He breaks the player experience and suspension of disbelief by forcing the player to accept this kids circular logic. He forces the player to chose from three near identical endings, and forces the primary goal of the trilogy, to destroy the Reapers, to become null and void. This is very bad writing, and invalidates the everything that has happened in the Mass Effect franchise up to this point.

2. The Mass Relays must remain functional or, at the very least, appear as if they can be repaired.

I can understand why the Mass Relays would be somewhat damaged after being forced to store such a massive amount of energy and release it in the span of a minute, but as stated previously, The Arrival DLC showed that the destruction of a Mass Relay is paramount to a supernova going off in a solar system. I'm not saying that you can't show the relay's damaged or in need of repair, but the current ending strongly implies that the relay network is completely deep sixed, along with everything in the blast radius.

3. Joker and the Normandy should be on EARTH.

Showing Joker fleeing the Sol System with the Normandy and crew not only poses the question of how the entire crew was able to get aboard the Normandy after the Crucible was fired, but it also goes against the every crew members' characters. Not once was Joker shown to be a coward that would flee from a battle. If Joker were to do something like that, every member of the crew would have pulled him from the helm to insure that they were still at Earth. Again, the current endings scenes with Joker are poorly written, and must be changed.

4. Epilogue with LI and decisions.

This is pretty self explanatory, so I won't go into detail.

In short Bioware, you have a very rare opportunity to make things right and salvage your reputation. Don't waste it. We as fans will wait until the product is ready. Right now, however, the current ending to Mass Effect 3 is terrible, and the Extended Cut DLC is not what the fans asked for. We want new endings, and we are asking for them because it is what you promised us. The measure of a true artist is their understanding of the audience. Their integrity is not tarnished when they take into account the criticisms of his fans and changes the art, but when they arrogantly decry those that criticize them.

#15666
Spirit Keeper

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I don't see how you can possibly be saying you are listening to use when you keep using the word clarification. We don;t need the endings you have to be clarifyed, we just need new endings.

Hopefully this doesn't come off as a rant, I am trying to be a sincere, this will be a long and hopefully in-depth look at the endings and my fears about the Extended Cut DLC. *links included, see below*

Now Bioware has revealed their plans for upcoming DLC called 'Mass Effect 3: Extended Cut'. which will be 'expanding on the ending to Mass Effect 3 by creating additional cinematics and epilogue scenes to the existing ending sequences'.

So here is my concern. 1: ''Though we remain committed and are proud of the artistic choices we made
in the main game, we are aware that there are some fans who would like
more closure to Mass Effect 3''


Now Bioware states that they are listening to fan feedback but they state that fans were wanting more closure. I have been looking on different websites and youtube videos and I have not seen anything about closure only that the endings were bad and not what people expected from bioware as well as major dissapointment. As another someone else has said "why do an extended cut if your just going to expand on the endings we didn't like"?







I would like to add my own personal understanding of the endings of ME3 and why I don't like them. This WILLt get long, oh and SPOILERS.


So as most people state the endings to this game are comprised of 3 different colours and not much else. But lets's look more in-depth.

Destroy: This like control can have Shepards lives or Shepard dies but either way the mass relays are destroyed and all AI's including EDI and the Geth are destroyed.

Control: Again shepard can live or die. The reapers leave the galaxy and once again the relays are destroyed.

Synthesis: Shepard always dies and all organics (against their will) are transformed into synthetic/organic beings.(perhaps no chnages on the surface). Again relays are destroyed.

Now I want to focus on the mass relays. These connect the galaxy, every species keeps in contact with the galaxy using these devices. So with the relays gone the galaxy is no divided from itself and all civilisations and alone. Think the effect this has on the galaxy. What will happen to any new colonies, they won't have the resorces to sustain themselves. Furthermore Earth has been left a broken wasteland after the reaper invasion. This is bad for the people still alive BUT earth has mutil species fleets in orbit. They can't fly off to get food, water and other resources, this means that people are either going to starve to death or resort to cannabalsim......and then starve to death. Turians and Quarians can't even eat the same food as the other speices so their fu**ked.

The Mass Effect series but mostly in ME3 has been about uniting people, ending conflict and brining peace. Turians and Krogan, Quarian and Geth but now because Bioware for whatever reason think it's a genius idea the destruction of the relays reduces everything Shepard spent his/her time to ash. These people will never get in contact or see eachother. Let's not forget things like the child that Jacob will never see ot Wrex's children he'll never see.

This contiunues with the romance and the normandy and crew. Why are they running from the battle. Joker and the normandy crew ws with you in ME1 at Illos and the battle of the citadel, they killed Sovereign. They stcuk with you in ME2 making sure that they caught you in the collector base so you didn't die. but now they leave at the end of mass effect 3. WHAT? They then get themselves suck on an unknown world with an inoperable Normandy with no relays.

Oh look joker and EDI look so happy....................except the entire crew is now stranded with no way to get off world and no rescue able to save them. Again Tali and Garrus can't eat the same food as the rest of the crew and thats even if the world they landed has something that's even edible for anyone. They can't populate a world by themslves and will all die. Happy, happy -_-

Romance option. *Insert you Shepard and romance here* (Mine was a Default Male Shepard, John, Vanguard and Kaidan. Also used the 'setgender' code in ME1 so that my Male Shep could romance kaidan in ME1 so this was a romance imported thorugh the series). Shepards broken battered body is now stuck on earth while *romance option* is now stuck on some planet somewhere. They will never see eachother again, they will never hoold eachother and will die without ever being able to say goodbye.

*There is more that is not in my head but I will make edits when things come to mind.*

Concern 2: Bioware has not explained what this dlc will include except a vague 'providing closure'. I am scared that they are making this DLC thinking how much the fans will love it but in the end will still be making an amazing dissapoinment, like the endings. How are fans supposed to guide bioware into making something great when it's all behind closed doors.

*Personal note* - For me the only type of endings that will renue my trust in bioware is if somehow the relays are rebuilt (geth now have reaper intelligence and the asari baremaid 'Liara's father' staes in mass effect 2 something along the lines of ''we should build mass relays'', not her exact words. So I assume the knowledge is there.

The normandy crew need to be saved and Shepard and their romance can reunite, by the way apart from the reuniting they could live together in that home on inta'sei that shepard won from Ahern in Pinnical Station, might as well put PS dlc to use.

The galaxy needs to come together in union with a giant celebration in victory over the reaper. As a friends said "Where is my Damn Ewok party Bioware?!"

The series has been about choice but you took away out choice and gave us 3 endings witha few variables. Why is there no CHOICE for an ending were the relays are not destroyed and the normandy doesn't flee??

Closing I would like to note that I have loved the mass effect series as much as any fan and ME3 was great until it got to the endings and Bioware, closure is great but not if it turns out to be depressing (I am a sucker for a well done 'happily ever after').

Please don't make another mistake. I'll be keeping a close eye on this dlc.

Thank you for listening

links

Wiki page: http://masseffect.wi...3:_Extended_Cut

Bioware blog: http://blog.bioware....3-extended-cut/

This is a must watch video it explains everything is amazing detail:

#15667
SP2219

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Firstly, Bioware, thank you for all your hard work these past eight years, and for making all my time with Mass Effect truly special. By playing the Mass Effect games I have discovered things about myself I didn't even realise were there. That is the mark of a talented story teller, and that's why I appeal to you to give ME3 a proper ending.
Bioware, you already have 627 pages of thread response to the ending, 95% of it being negative. There is a message here trying to tell you something. The ending to Mass Effect 3 does not work. It is not really an ending at all. In fact, it is an ending in title only. A valid ending to any story takes into consideration all the key events that have happened up until that point, and tries to make sense of them, at the most basic of levels.

To the fans : notice how we don't even have to make sense of every event in the game, we just need to make sense of the main ones. Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2 pulled this off beautifully. In Mass Effect 1 you make the decision whether or not to save the Citadel Council, who form the basis for diplomatic stability throughout the galaxy. That's a big deal in the Mass Effect universe, and rightly enough Bioware acknowledged how big a deal it was by exploring the consequences of that decision in depth. Either humanity joins the council and earns the respect of the enitre galaxy, or assumes a stance of control and domination. Either way we get closure - a definite result that summarises the key events, and hence an effective ending. In Mass Effect 2, you are rewarded for your efforts to form relationships with the main characters in terms of who survives the suicide mission. Not only that, you are presented with yet another pivotal choice that will further define your character. Blow up the Collector base or keep it for the Illusive Man, who is clearly evil? Such outcomes in both games provide closure to the stories of each and preserve the mechanic of player choice, the most important part of the Mass Effect franchise and the reason it became so popular in the first place.

Lets imagine it's 2007 and Mass Effect 1 has just released, but without the dialogue wheel, without any player choice, without the codex, without any galaxy map to explore. You never get to decide how events pan out or how people react to you. In fact, you get to talk to no one. Now all you are left with are the main cut scenes and the shooting parts. Would people still have bought it? The answer is probably no. People did not buy the game because the shooting looked like fun. If we wanted to shoot things, we could have bought Gears of War instead. As it stands Gears of War is one of my least favourite gaming franchises that everyone else loves. But that's fine. It reasserts why Mass Effect was so loved and faithfully supported to begin with. We bought the game because we wanted to be immersed in a sci-fi story, in which we could choose what to say, and thus shape the outcome of the story itself. And by shaping the outcome of the story, that meant shaping the outcome of the ending as well, because a story follows a very simple structure:

BEGINNING -> MIDDLE -> END

Both ME1 and ME2 follow this structure, and they are 2 of the best games in history.
ME3, unfortunately follows this structure:

BEGINNING -> MIDDLE -> AN ENDLESS LIST OF QUESTIONS THAT CAN NEVER BE FULLY ANSWERED

Why can these questions never be answered? It's because the ending itself completely disregards Mass Effect's original genre and previously established physical limitations. It also completely disregards the subsequent events that have transpired not just in ME1 and ME2, but in ME3 itself!

Examples?

1. The catalyst says "The created will always rebel against their creators..."

Eh....no. In Liara's own words (my wife; so much for the little blue children. I'm still feeling pretty distraught)

"Shepard that isn't true!"

I just proved it isn't true by allying the Quarians with the Geth, a "creator vs created" conflict. EDI is an artificial intelligence, yet during ME3 she commits to preserving the lives of myself and my crew mates "to the death." If anything, the complete polar opposite statement is true, the creators will always rebel against their created, as proven during my journey through the Geth consensus on Rannoch, where the Quarians are shown to initiate the Geth war, not the Geth. The evidence is already there, that organics and synthetics would actually prefer to live in peace with one another. Wasn't this one of the key ideals I had been fighting for since I spoke to Legion in ME2? All three endings therefore disregard these subsequent events and cannot therefore function as valid endings to ME3 or the entire trilogy.

2. I can control the Reapers but I will die in the process

No where in the mass effect universe is it even hinted that an organic being can ever transfer his/her consciousness to a machine, die during the process, yet somehow still maintain control of that machine.
Such an idea would make more sense in the fanatsy genre, not in science fiction, where the basic laws of science still need to be abided by. There is no scientific evidence for ghosts. Hence we do not see ghosts appearing in Mass Effect 3  Or do we?????????
The control ending disregards the previously established laws of the Mass Effect universe, and hence it cannot be considered a valid ending to any Mass Effect game. I'm sorry, but this is what happens when you create a franchise, or a fictional universe. You must abide by the laws of that universe! Otherwise you are no longer in that said universe - you are subconsciously trying to create an entirely new franchise or universe, not conclude an existing one. Which is what Bioware should do, because it says "Mass Effect 3" on the game box, not "Mass Effect 3 with Ghosts, Magical Beams of Light and Other Fantastical Elements, Five Minutes Before the Suppossed Ending, Which is not Really an Ending, But the Point at Which the Credits Roll"

3. If I'm on the Crucible when I choose the destroy option, and I die during the process, how do I end up back on Earth?

We have previously established in the Mass Effect universe that even Shepard cannot survive a re-entry into the Earth's atmosphere, or any atmosphere for that matter, even with his N7 armor on. This makes sense. In the real world objects entering Earth's atmosphere tend to burn up, and burning up is bad news for organics. Shepard is organic. Mass Effect is science fiction, not fantasy. Hence if Shepard dies on the Crucible, he cannot wake up on Earth. It violates cause and effect, a fundamental law of everything. If X is after Y then Y cannot be after X. A law that Mass Effect has always abided by...until now it would seem.
Hence the destroy option is not a valid ending to ME3, in the genre of science fiction, unless it is all an indoctrination dream, in which case this is a false ending, unprecedented in any work of fiction, and Bioware/EA are in a lot of trouble.

I could go on forever. The number of narrative plot-holes and canonical inconsistincies is astounding. What's even more astounding is that Bioware are actually trying to defend this mess which is clearly a creation of unfeasible deadlines and funding restrictions attributed to EA. I'm also worried by these claims made by Bioware that Mass Effect is a work of art, and hence you can either take the endings as they are or leave them. This is probably the worst thing you could ever say in this kind of situation. Let me tell you why.

Art and design are two sides of the same coin. People always get them confused. Artists often work alongside designers and some people can work as combination of the two. What it boils down to is this:

An artist presents you with a piece of artwork that reflects their personality and is completely unique. If you like it, you then buy this unique piece of artwork for a lot of money. Artists never brainstorm ideas. If they do they're not artists; they're designers.

A designer creates and develops ideas that shape a final product which then fulfills a number of objective goals. This product is then sold to customers, promising to solve the problems it says it does. The resulting profit is fed back to the design team as salaries and bonuses. Designers always brainstorm. If they don't their designs tend to be bad, because they won't fulfill the goals, or solve the problem.

Mass Effect falls nicely into the design category. There is artwork involved, but it is there to communicate things to the player not to express personality. Mass Effect is full of visual cues that say "this is a vehicle," "this is a door," "this is a spaceship," "this is an asari" etc etc. And nowhere can you tell what person did the artwork for what. It all looks like it was done by the same person. In fact, a lot of it looks like it was done by Syd Mead, but Syd Mead never worked on Mass Effect. This is the mark of an excellent design team. They have tricked us into thinking this world is real, when it is not, and that's incredible. The team at Bioware would have brainstormed ideas for Mass Effect in a design document such as:

1. The player must have a choice in what they say and do
2. This will take the form of a dialogue wheel, where the player can choose paragon or renegade
3. The players can use pistols, assault rifles, sniper rifles and shotguns to shoot enemies
4. The players will have a squad and they will be able to give commands to them
etc etc

And thus Mass Effect is a work of design. A good design meets the design goals which must be the demands of the consumer. Bioware did this in ME1 and ME2 and 90% of ME3. But what were the consumer demads for mass effect 3?

1. My choices in ME1 and ME2 need to matter from beginning to end. (They do not)
2. The ending must make sense in relation to the previously established universe in ME1 and ME2 (They don't)
3. I must have closure with the characters I have grown to love. What happened to them? (There is no closure)

Mass Effect 3 is starting to fail as a good work of design. Designs go wrong all the time. It's nothing to be ashamed of. What matters is that if a design goes wrong you fix it, and you fix it quickly before consumer demand (fan demand) drops to zero.
What Bioware have actually done is much worse than the mistake itself. They are trying to pass off the design flaws in ME3's story as "artistic vision."

"With the Mass Effect 3: Extended Cut we think we have struck a good balance in delivering the answers players are looking for while maintaining the team's artistic vision for the end of this story arc in the Mass Effect universe." Ray Muzyka

No. No no no no no. Mass Effect is a work of design. Not art. Please don't try and suddenly mix the two together.
Remember how artists only make money after they present the full artwork? There's a reason. Artwork has intrinsic value. Design does not. You only buy a design because it promises to fulfill the design goals, like Bioware promised that your choices would matter in ME3 from beginning to suppossed end. But they don't, so now Bioware are trying to pass off their failing design as a work of art. But if that's true, haven't I just been tricked into buying something I thought was a piece of design, but is actually a piece of artwork with an intrinsic value?

There is a word that describes this method of tricking. It's called stealing. Bioware, if you are listening, please. You are losing your die hard fans. People who were behind you since KOTOR are losing faith in your company. Please don't ignore them. You can change the ending, and you should.  Not many people get that chance.  It's nothing to be ashamed of doing. Please do not try and clarify the current one. We don't care if it takes another year to make or another 2 years and we have to pay for it. I personally would pay £100 to have a proper ending with full character closure and narrative cohesion. I know you can do it! You just did it for 90% of ME3, and your fans deserve a choice. It's what the Mass Effect franchise is all about.
Good luck
A very dedicated fan

Modifié par SP2219, 09 avril 2012 - 01:25 .


#15668
StillOverrated

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Changer the Elder wrote...
It's actually not important to keep the message, but to remember the conditions under which it was written. You could have a clear message saying "DON'T DO THIS, IF YOU WILL, WOE ON YOU, EVIL THINGS  ARE GOING TO COME AND EAT YOUR LIVER!" but centuries later, it would probably seen as a superstitious garbage. And as soon as there'd be at least one jerk trying to tempt fate, it would be one jerk too many.
Again, I know it's a bit black & white reasoning, but from what I've noticed, the Catalyst operates pretty much without any shades of grey, so as long as there's a risk, it wouldn't be worth taking for him. It. Duh, the nouns are going to drive me nuts one day.

Fair enough, but it would still be their choice to be a jerk, and the jerk's people's choice to deal with it. I just don't think anyone should have the right to take someone else's freedom away from them. I guess I'm just stuck on this one. Be it because it fits the vibe I got from the ME series or because of my complete inability to see any issue in B&W, what with my 21st century perception and general lack of brainpower and all. Regardless of whether we see eye to eye on this or not, you made your point, and I still can see where you're shooting from.

Changer the Elder wrote...
Prothean war against their own AI? You mean the zha'til and the zha? I'm not sure if they eradicated them in the end, but for the Reapers, that was presumably the fuse. And just as with geth just going defensive, just the chance that the next time something like that happens results in a catastrophy is probably enough.

I still think that, if the Protheans were indeed winning, it should be evidence enough that the cycle doesn't necessarilly repeat itself in the same fashion. There might have been a war, but the fact that the Protheans were winning should have at least made them stop to question the whole cycle. They are supposed to be entire civilizations condensed in one Organic Milkshake Ship thing, after all. At least one of them should have noticed that there was something different about that cycle, Then, again, we only have Javik's word on it.

Changer the Elder wrote...
I think talking problems to death is an asari specialty... =)
Anyway, the Catalyst is not immune to that reasoning, as seen when he admits to know the cycle cannot go on forever, since the life keeps adapting itself to it. But then again, what reasoning could Shepard use not to be overruled by Catalyst's presumably bad experience? He could hardly cross his heart and say the civilizations are going to behave from now on.

Well, let's get Liara on it, then. She can do more than deploy singularities and have unresolved sexual tension with Shepard. :D
Working off the premise that the Catalyst holokid reaper whatever is some sort of VI/AI rather than the remnants of whatever civilization made the Reapers, I'm thinking Shepard could use some sort of cyclic logic, like the one the Lone Wanderer from vault 101 used with President Eden to get him to self-destruct. Or just use his/her own cycle as a reference, stating how, in this case, the cycle has already been broken, how all these species who had been at war up until five minutes ago have set their differences aside and are working hard for their own future, or maybe how the Catalyst, or anyone, for that matter, has the right to take away anyone's liberty, regardless of whether they think it's the only solution or not. I think Shep tried that last one, but it was handled feebly in the game. Or (as you pointed out before, I think?) argue that the Reapers themselves are the ones maintaining the cycle they're working so desperately to avoid. That should fry some artificial brains.

Another thing that's been bothering me, though, exactly what made the Catalyst somehow not able to control the Reapers anymore the second Shepard entered the room? Did the Protheans damage it when they altered the citadel to not respond to Sovereign's signal? I'd like to know, nitpicky and all.

Changer the Elder wrote...
That's what we'll presumably be getting from the Extended cut. Of course, I'm not arguing on the fact that it should've been in the basic game. But the schedule didn't permit it.

I definitely agree on the war assets appearing to be idle most of the game. I'm hoping (and many people out there will call me naive, but I prefer being naive than being a grouch) that's one of the things the extended cut might cover and we might actually get to see what were the Rachni doing, how did Kasumi end up, if Cortéz survived or what happened to Donnelly & Daniels after the Normandy's crash landing. And just as some people here refuse to be optimistic till the DLC proves them it's worth it, I refuse to be negative until it proves me wrong.

Again, I pray to whatever god is in vogue to pray to right now that you're right.

Changer the Elder wrote...
Color me paranoid, but in that thing, I smell EA's influence.

No paranoia. I know EA's reputation. I think everyone does. They're right up there with Capcom in ah, unsavory business practices.

Changer the Elder wrote...
But it was a bit of gamble. If they got delayed for the second time despite having a fixed date, it would've looked very bad. Just look at Diablo 3's pushback backlash. And that one didn't even have month announced before, let alone the exact date.
Of course, in retrospect, holding the line prove to be not as much of a good idea. But who knew before the fight, right?

I think that could have easily been fixed if they'd just told people "look. The game's still missing a lot. Here, here and here's our evidence of that. You're gonna have to wait a bit more unless you want a crappy game experience. You don't want this to be another Dragon Age II, do you?" There are going to be conspiracy theorists saying that BW is just messing with them but there's people questioning things everywhere.
Alternatively, they could have focused primarily on the SP experience and maybe, later on, released a multiplayer patch/DLC/something. Mass Effect is primarily a single-player game, after all. In my opinion, adding the MP was kind of a mistake (even more considering their MP is essentially Gears of War's Horde mode), but that's a whole 'nother story. Also, just my opinion.

Changer the Elder wrote...
Definitely, but then again, who's to say whose minds are the best? One wrong choice and Bioware would be sitting in a room with a dynamite stick waiting to tick. And we wouldn't accomplish anything by sending a messenger relaying a wrong image...

Prowling the forums, maybe? There's some pretty reasonable people around here. You, for instance, and dea_ex_machina. MrBTongue is pretty good at making his point, too, without retorting to petty name-calling. There's gotta be more. I'm aware that a high number of people would probably just turn the conference room into a war zone, so I was thinking, maybe somewhere between two and five people per side?

Changer the Elder wrote...
My oh my, 2 AM. I should head to bed before faceplanting on the keyboard. Again.

Hahah, you won't read this until the next day, but good night! :D

#15669
Ralph The Wonder Llama

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I am begining to think it is not about "Artistic whatever..."  It would cost money (programing time, etc) to change the ending and EA does not want to spend anymore on this project.

Fine, I will never pre-order a game again and nothing from EA. 
 

#15670
Rheinlandman

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Changer the Elder wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

I'm amused that your examples involve games of very different genre.  red dead redemption is a western.  those are not known for being kind to their heroes, throughout.  so thematicaly, the ending there - fits.  infamous - much darker, dystopian game.
Mass effect is a space opera.  its Star treck mixed with Star wars of
our generation.  and those are generaly uplifting.  Mass Effect 1 has an
uplifting ending.  mass Effect 2 has an uplifting ending.  the theme
throughout the games seems to be - overcming impossible odds.


And I'm amused that the genre should define the outcome. I actually find RDR more of a kick since you can literally spend the whole game redeeming the character, making him a hero and a family man, only to get put down when you settle down and don't expect it. Here, you die for a cause you've been following since the start and the game keeps repeatedly warning you it has a solid chance to be a one-way trip.

In ME3, you have a fullscale war with Eldritch abominations where anyone and everyone can die. Your opponents are a sentient machines. Killing one of them took out more than a half of the largest security force of the galaxy (the citadel fleet). Killing about four hundred of them shouldn't be a piece of cake. If everything ended with a rainbow, it would just strike weird and denominate the Reapers' status as a major threat.

I keep hearing the complaints about how writers were promising something they didn't keep. Well, there's been one promise no one can argue they kept - that you'll have some tough choices to make. It was hard choosing whom to sacrifice on Virmire. Under circumstances, it can be tough to decide whether to help the krogan or listen to the dalatrass, whether to deny the geth the life they've earned or let the quarians go out in a blaze of stupidity/glory (hell, I still do have a guilty conscience over that one). And it resonates just right with the series to giving you the choice whether to save yourself, doing what you came to do (kill the reapers and keep the galaxy's status quo) but sacrificing geth/EDI in the process, or giving your life up.

And well, you can't say you haven't been warned. Both devs and the game itself repeatedly warned you it was coming. ME3 had several dialogues on that matter.

P.S: Of course, there's nothing wrong with having a happy ending. But there's equally nothing wrong with having a bittersweet one.


Whilst RDR allows you to redeem Marston over the course of the game it never waivers in its presentation as a gothic tragedy.  ME is consistently presented itself as a Heroic Epic, we (Shepard) are the virtuous heroes (or able should you play renegade) that can do the superhuman feats beyond the abilities of mere mortals.  Then it takes a 180 and goes into the realms of tragedy,  while the act of sacrifice may have been noble, the presentation of the action had no sense of connection to the nobility (or lack there-of for renegades) our Shepards possessed. 

Marston may have atoned in RDR but he never hides he past as an ignoble thief and outlaw, it is somethiing that constantly shadows and gives depth to his character.

Never when I played through the series did I feel defeat was inevitable or that my Shepards death was the inevitable price  I would have to pay.  Death, like the reapers, was an obstacle to be overcome; and if any character could overcome death it was Shepard.  

Our choice in endings should have been as protean as the game it was concluding.

I also think a messianic character is a ****** poor concept to use in modern literature and media; and the closer you get to paralleling the Christ story the more uninspired your creation becomes.

#15671
spartanmax52000

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Reeeen0690 wrote...

Bioware please, I very much appreciate and extended cut and I'm looking forward to seeing further resolution of the characters HOWEVER

THE CATALYST/STARCHILD IS A MAJOR PROBLEM


The geth are said to be peaceful and after driving the quarians from rannoch, stopped their pursuit to avoid killing them.
Then in ME1 the geth only attacked due to Soveriegn's influence on them.
Therefore the only reason for war with synthetics in this cycle was due to the Reapers.

Also Javik also says in his cycle that the protheans had almost won the war against their synthetics the only reason they lost was the Reaper invasion


So essentially Reapers cause wars with synthetics to stop organics from winning the wars with synthetics the Reapers are trying to prevent, leaving the only option of killing organics so that they cant get killed by the synthetics they were already winning against.

The Starchilds reasoning is TERRIBLE

I think most fans expected something a bit more like "We harvest technologically advanced species at the apex of their existance then storing these old species within immortal Reaper bodies, making room for new life to flourish and grow." Similar idea but without the rubbish saving you from synthetics explanation.

His existence also makes the plotline of ME1 Irrelevant. What is the need for Sovereign if the Citadel itself is sentient? Why does the Citadel need to make Sovereign manually control the Citadel? That is like grabbing my left arm with my right arm so that I can move my left arm. Its Circular, its Illogical, It does not make sense in context of the game!

Sorry for the long rant but please take note guys.; Extended scenes are great but wont please your fanbase if the main issues are still there

It would make a lot more sense if the catalyst said the reapers harvest advance civilization cause they get bored after waiting so long in dark space:bandit:

#15672
Lordambitious

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 Image IPB

#15673
Chrislo1990

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Lordambitious wrote...

 Image IPB

Haha nice LordAmbitious.

Also I've been thinking. How much money will EA actually spend on making the Extended Cut DLC? They won't be making a profit out of it. As such will the extended cut dlc be of good quality? I said of good quality becaue I don't want the extended cut in the first place! I want new endings that actually made sense!

Modifié par Chrislo1990, 09 avril 2012 - 02:14 .


#15674
improperdancing

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The one thing I really hate in this whole debate is the people that loved the ending describing what Shepherd did as a "heroic sacrifice." You guys do realize that a sacrifice is a choice, right? When you're confronted with three options and you die in all of them, and you have to choose one, that's not a sacrifice.

A sacrifice would have been giving Shepherd a choice between dying himself and saving his friends, or living himself and watching many of his friends die. That's a sacrifice. Shepherd has the choice to live or die and, if he chooses death, his sacrifice has actual meaning.

In Mass Effect 3, there is no heroic sacrifice. Shepherd is going to die regardless of what happens. He has no option to reject the Star Child and potentially survive himself, but at great cost to his friends and allies. His only options are (as the pic above so lovingly describes it) genocide, slavery, or molestation, and he is going to die in all three.

Not only is Shepherd not a hero in the current endings, but in fact he is just as bad as the Reapers he has spent three games trying to thwart.

As bad as the current endings are, even adding a "F*ck you, we'll take our chances" dialogue option would have made the finale at least somewhat satisfying. And really, that would have been a true sacrifice, as Shepherd would be dying in the form of one final stand against bullsh*t and bad writing.

#15675
GhostWolf

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For my first play-through, I chose the middle path (Mass Molestation per the Videogames graphic) and did not have a problem with the bitterness of the ending. It fit. But, I do understand what some fans are saying. I think the developers missed an entire thread of decisions that could have resulted in a happy ending for those seeking it: the decisions resulting in reunion of the Geth and Quarians, and the potential for living in harmony without rewriting the DNA of galaxy inhabitants. I think this is supported by Reeeen0690's point about the convoluted logic of the catalyst. It seems forced; that is, a way to force the bittersweet ending, like it or not.

Although I liked the ending I chose, I do think promises for "alternate" endings were overstated. What I see are three paths to the same ending - for Shepard, anyway.

The above said I still think the Mass Effect Trilogy is by far the best computer game(s) I have ever played. (And I have been playing computer games since they were solely text-based.) The ME universe is engaging, complex, challenges social stereotypes, allows for creative options in game play; so I am immersed in its universe in much the same way that an excellent movie or excellent novel lets me slip from the workaday world into a different realm for a time - except in the ME universe I get to influence plot and action with my decisions.