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On the Mass Effect 3 endings. Yes, we are listening.


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#15776
Thanatos144

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dea_ex_machina wrote...

Changer the Elder wrote...
Yes, I'm quite aware of that. Notice I'm not actually defending him but rather calling people out on pouring oil to the flameware. As I said, there are ignorant people on both sides of the fence.
But just because attempts to reason with him are fruitless, it doesn't mean people have to stoop to that spiral again. We've proven over the several past pages we can do better than that. I agree that people who hate the endings do not deserve to be called names just for their stance. But people who like them are equally deserving.
Statements like those I called out for are simply... not fair. Easier, yes, but not fair.

That is true. Though I doubt that people here think Thanatos is an idiot because he thinks the endings are good, but because he actively provokes people and they feel the urge respond to that. I agree the best solution is to just ignore him and report his ass for spam and causing shambles here. I've had my share of "conversation" with this guy as well and after I noticed that he's unwilling to react to my arguments (or anyone's, really) in the least, I left it at that and started to ignore him.

I don't provoke I give my honest opinion on the matter. so far I have
been only proven wrong once. That being I thought the relays imploded
when they obviously didn't. Most of what you see is opinion. Or a point
of view. How I see it and that includes this thread and the hostility
for those who don't follow the group think.

#15777
Theronyll Itholien

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Thanatos144 wrote...

Theronyll Itholien wrote...

Thanatos, scroll a few pages back and reply to me quoting you, would you kindly? I'll keep trying to knock some sense into you, you see..

How far back are a few pages? I dont want to spend my entire day off look for a post LOL


Within the last 5 or 6 I think. On my phone atm.

#15778
Thanatos144

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pipemaster9000 wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

pipemaster9000 wrote...

You contend against majority then. Please, explain the ending. I wish to be enlightened. 3 choices? Seriously? I distinctly remember being told it would not be an " A, B, or C ending." The end results were completely different.

Do you mean for this game? well you dont have to make to earth or the crucible or it can miss fire and kill in at least two different
ways....Thats 4 more ending right there and not to mention who is left
after....Just like the second game...



Well, I see what you are saying but, those are minor, at best, variations of an A, B, or C ending. They are nice touches but, when you did loyalty missions in ME2 or.... you let them get waxed, you had more control in those options. You actually got to know those characters. If they all survived you are left with a scene of everyone hanging out/ getting ready for the next fight. That last scene provides closure, along with talking to TIM. If some of them died you are given a scene viewing their coffin. Thats closure. ME3 lacks that closure. The Normandy crash landing somewhere and the crew surviving is heroic but, doesn't make any sense chronologically or physically. Almost closure but not quite. At the ending of 1 & 2 I was left asking "Whats next!? When is the sequel coming out!?" These questions are okay, imo. ME3 leaves us with far more questions than answers. Questions that I didn't expect to be asking about this game, especially playing through it.

The entire trilogy your decisions were minor. I contend in this one it was
just more apparent.  The illusion of choice was broken in this game
and it didn't start with the last 20 minutes....it was the entire
game that ran like this. I think this was like this cause the entire
game was the end. It was wrapping up loose ends. Like the geth and
genophage areas of the story.

my honest opinion is that I am
glad they are making a extended cut to better answer things they left
open but I don't think they need to compromise what they made to try and
please everyone cause you cant. This is the most logical thing to do.
like it hate  it love it or leave it let the cards lay as they will.

#15779
Changer the Elder

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GarrusVFan wrote...
First off, thanks for the compliment.  Garrus is one of the main reasons I played Mass Effect.  (I went more into detail with that on this same thread: 
http://social.biowar...61/362#10434535 Not trying to draw attention to myself, but I figure if you like Garrus as well we might have a bit more in common ^_^)

I think I actually remember stumbling upon that when I was originally just stalking this thread. But yes, Garrus is amazing. Even though it's true, it's hard not to have a soft spot for pretty much everyone on the crew. Minus maybe Javik. Nobody's throwing my crew out of the airlock... =)  But that's going off-topic...

Anyway, I didn't really feel that ME1 put off that sort of "vibe".  Granted, I started my journey through the Mass Effect universe from #2, but I'm sure it was pretty obvious to anyone who started Mass Effect from the beginning knew, by the end of ME1, that Sarren was the beginning of the end.

I also started with ME2, being a PlayStationer, but even with knowing the plot with the Reapers leading to something greater, I still can't get that "vibe" out of my brain. I'm not saying it's bad, it's actually one of the shining examples that Tropes are not bad when handled right. I used it merely as an illustration as to how short amount of footage can make a difference.

I realize a lot of people believe that there is a lot of people out there who are "o.k" with Shepard dying in the end, you know... "self sacrifice for the greater good" type of thing, or, "a good soldier always puts the mission first even if that means death", I am not one of them.  The best ending possible, (Shepard surviving, having a happy ending with his/her love interest, showing the Geth&Quarians on their home planet, the Krogan re-establishing themselves, earth rebuilding, etc.) should have been attainable, although, extremley difficult and time consuming. Like... play through ME1 to ME3 with the same character and do everything you can in ME3 to prepare for the Reapers. (or something to that effect)

Well, I sort of agree with the point that happy ending might've been nice option. But still, no matter how I'm going to miss Shep, I still have to say the writers are entitled to pull a stunt like that. Killing a character hardly makes them bad writers. (Not pointing to you, just pointing to general opinion with this quib). Even though as soon as EA officially announced that ME3 is the end of line for Commander Shepard, I knew s/he's going to bite the dust. When EA says they won't make money out of something anymore, you can bet it's pretty much final.
I do agree that the achievability of the endings was handled clumsily though, with way too many blind spots left to fill out. I understand the authors trying to leave the imagination to take lead, but they probably underestimated the necessary amount of information for a sufficient closure. Most of your war assets & interracial help was unnecessarily left out. I'm hoping that's where the Extended cut DLC comes in.

Not only that, but this thread, the majority of it's comments, and the thousands before it are being disregarded in a manner that is almost as insulting to the fan-base as the endings were.  Bioware is basically saying, "We appreciate your feedback, but the hundreds upon thousands of you are wrong, and we are right, deal with it."

I understand that point of view, but I think it's more like mishandled PR than actual ignorance. It could use a bit more dev-to-fans communications, but then again, it would be a tremendous undertaking and it would be pretty much impossible for some people not to get omitted from the discussion. As far as I've noticed, BioWare staff seems to have gone into radio silence with little to no activity around the board, which hopefully means they're too busy resolving the situation / preparing the DLC.

It just all comes down to the ending(s).  Bioware was wrong, flat out, no arguments, wrong.  Now, they won't admit it, and they feel shoving it down our throats through a free dlc (like it being free makes up for it) is the way to bring more perspective, in an attempt to sway the fans.  Honestly, I don't know which of those aspects is worse.

I do agree that the ending was nowhere near the quality of the rest of the game. But I may be naive fool, but I do honestly believe the free DLC is them trying to show they care without having to destroy what they created (which would be, at least in my opinion, russian roulette with five bullets in the gun) rather than a publicity stunt to keep us quiet. I do believe that for delivering up 2and97% of amazing stories, they could use the benefit of the doubt.

#15780
Blazerer

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GarrusVFan wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Happy Easter all.....I am a day late I know but family time is more important than ME time.


Did you come on here just to imply that the people who spend time here debating and talking about what is important to them, is a waste of time and they have no life?

And concerning your post before that; you have obviously missed the entire reason this thread exists, and I'm not about to attempt to re-explain it to you.  If you're satisfied with the current endings as they are, g4u, but the rest of us are not.

Ane yes, we feel entitled to an ending without 30+ plotholes, amidst the mutiple other issues with the current endings.


ignore him, he's either a poor troll or a bioware employee in disguise that will refuse to answer to solid arguments, will only forward poor arguments and try to provoke you. just ignore his posts as many before you already decided to do ^^

not tomention he still owes me several lines of explanation on questions earlier asked

Modifié par Blazerer, 09 avril 2012 - 12:29 .


#15781
Jassu1979

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As I said: I'm cautiously optimistic, but I just can't see how simply adding new cut scenes and leaving everything else unchanged could possibly resolve the various inescapable faults and plot holes that the current ending possesses.

#15782
Blazerer

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Jassu1979 wrote...

As I said: I'm cautiously optimistic, but I just can't see how simply adding new cut scenes and leaving everything else unchanged could possibly resolve the various inescapable faults and plot holes that the current ending possesses.


and this is where most of us are now. we pretty mjuch already know the EC isn't going to solve the problem that is the entire ending, however it might, just teeny tiny eeny miny might solve the plotholes. so all we can do for now is wait, and hope that casey hudson won't try once again to write an entire ending on his own. http://www.gamesthir...e-stays-silent/

Modifié par Blazerer, 09 avril 2012 - 12:31 .


#15783
Thanatos144

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Theronyll Itholien wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Theronyll Itholien wrote...

Thanatos, scroll a few pages back and reply to me quoting you, would you kindly? I'll keep trying to knock some sense into you, you see..

How far back are a few pages? I dont want to spend my entire day off look for a post LOL


Within the last 5 or 6 I think. On my phone atm.

you might want to repost what you said cause the last post I see quoting
me was in page 620 and there was to much text so your post was cut off.

#15784
pipemaster9000

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Thanatos144 wrote...

pipemaster9000 wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

pipemaster9000 wrote...

You contend against majority then. Please, explain the ending. I wish to be enlightened. 3 choices? Seriously? I distinctly remember being told it would not be an " A, B, or C ending." The end results were completely different.

Do you mean for this game? well you dont have to make to earth or the crucible or it can miss fire and kill in at least two different
ways....Thats 4 more ending right there and not to mention who is left
after....Just like the second game...



Well, I see what you are saying but, those are minor, at best, variations of an A, B, or C ending. They are nice touches but, when you did loyalty missions in ME2 or.... you let them get waxed, you had more control in those options. You actually got to know those characters. If they all survived you are left with a scene of everyone hanging out/ getting ready for the next fight. That last scene provides closure, along with talking to TIM. If some of them died you are given a scene viewing their coffin. Thats closure. ME3 lacks that closure. The Normandy crash landing somewhere and the crew surviving is heroic but, doesn't make any sense chronologically or physically. Almost closure but not quite. At the ending of 1 & 2 I was left asking "Whats next!? When is the sequel coming out!?" These questions are okay, imo. ME3 leaves us with far more questions than answers. Questions that I didn't expect to be asking about this game, especially playing through it.

The entire trilogy your decisions were minor. I contend in this one it was
just more apparent.  The illusion of choice was broken in this game
and it didn't start with the last 20 minutes....it was the entire
game that ran like this. I think this was like this cause the entire
game was the end. It was wrapping up loose ends. Like the geth and
genophage areas of the story.

my honest opinion is that I am
glad they are making a extended cut to better answer things they left
open but I don't think they need to compromise what they made to try and
please everyone cause you cant. This is the most logical thing to do.
like it hate  it love it or leave it let the cards lay as they will.


I can agree there, the entire game was the ending to the trilogy. However, the ending to the game should have explained all these things. This game the choices made are stronger with more consequences but, they get tossed at the end. I wanna see a 7k EMS fleet stand toe to toe with the Reapers. It's only fitting for being the first cycle to unite all the Species. Why can't more than 50% of Hammer make it to the FOB safely? EMS should affect that percentage. Granted, these effects would have a direct affect on the endings and warrant more change.

Also, other than MP DLC, how would SP DLC fit in Chronologically? 

#15785
Thanatos144

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Blazerer wrote...

GarrusVFan wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Happy Easter all.....I am a day late I know but family time is more important than ME time.


Did you come on here just to imply that the people who spend time here debating and talking about what is important to them, is a waste of time and they have no life?

And concerning your post before that; you have obviously missed the entire reason this thread exists, and I'm not about to attempt to re-explain it to you.  If you're satisfied with the current endings as they are, g4u, but the rest of us are not.

Ane yes, we feel entitled to an ending without 30+ plotholes, amidst the mutiple other issues with the current endings.


ignore him, he's either a poor troll or a bioware employee in disguise that will refuse to answer to solid arguments, will only forward poor arguments and try to provoke you. just ignore his posts as many before you already decided to do ^^

not tomention he still owes me several lines of explanation on questions earlier asked

if you wish to ignore me go ahead but to tell others not to discuss things with me cause you dont like what I post seem a bit absurd to me. By the way cause I dont follow the bioware/ea is evil mind think does not mean I work for them......

#15786
Jassu1979

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To illustrate how much variation *is* possible, look no further than Mordin and the genophage cure:

If you killed Wrex in the first game (or never played it), and Eve died in Mordin's attempt to sample a cure, it's actually possible to convince the salarian doctor to let you sabotage the cure: he realized that without Eve (and/or Wrex), the krogans would indeed become a threat, and abandons his quest for redemption, feigning his own device and joining the crucible project.
If you decided to sabotage the cure (yet had Wrex still around), however, shooting Mordin in the back was the only option, leading to additional fallout later in the game when you have to murder Wrex.
And if you go full-paragon with Wrex and Eve around, Mordin valiantly sacrifices himself, and it looks like the krogans can really break with their belligerent past.

#15787
Thanatos144

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pipemaster9000 wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

pipemaster9000 wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

pipemaster9000 wrote...

You contend against majority then. Please, explain the ending. I wish to be enlightened. 3 choices? Seriously? I distinctly remember being told it would not be an " A, B, or C ending." The end results were completely different.

Do you mean for this game? well you dont have to make to earth or the crucible or it can miss fire and kill in at least two different
ways....Thats 4 more ending right there and not to mention who is left
after....Just like the second game...



Well, I see what you are saying but, those are minor, at best, variations of an A, B, or C ending. They are nice touches but, when you did loyalty missions in ME2 or.... you let them get waxed, you had more control in those options. You actually got to know those characters. If they all survived you are left with a scene of everyone hanging out/ getting ready for the next fight. That last scene provides closure, along with talking to TIM. If some of them died you are given a scene viewing their coffin. Thats closure. ME3 lacks that closure. The Normandy crash landing somewhere and the crew surviving is heroic but, doesn't make any sense chronologically or physically. Almost closure but not quite. At the ending of 1 & 2 I was left asking "Whats next!? When is the sequel coming out!?" These questions are okay, imo. ME3 leaves us with far more questions than answers. Questions that I didn't expect to be asking about this game, especially playing through it.

The entire trilogy your decisions were minor. I contend in this one it was
just more apparent.  The illusion of choice was broken in this game
and it didn't start with the last 20 minutes....it was the entire
game that ran like this. I think this was like this cause the entire
game was the end. It was wrapping up loose ends. Like the geth and
genophage areas of the story.

my honest opinion is that I am
glad they are making a extended cut to better answer things they left
open but I don't think they need to compromise what they made to try and
please everyone cause you cant. This is the most logical thing to do.
like it hate  it love it or leave it let the cards lay as they will.


I can agree there, the entire game was the ending to the trilogy. However, the ending to the game should have explained all these things. This game the choices made are stronger with more consequences but, they get tossed at the end. I wanna see a 7k EMS fleet stand toe to toe with the Reapers. It's only fitting for being the first cycle to unite all the Species. Why can't more than 50% of Hammer make it to the FOB safely? EMS should affect that percentage. Granted, these effects would have a direct affect on the endings and warrant more change.

Also, other than MP DLC, how would SP DLC fit in Chronologically? 

the same way it did in the first game all sp dlc will be inserted to have
happened before you take out the illusive mans base. I think maybe they
should have done this in ME2 cause many who have only played it on a
ps3 didnt know that all ME1 dlc was to have happened before you go to
Ilos

#15788
Theronyll Itholien

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Theronyll Itholien wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Theronyll Itholien wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Theronyll Itholien wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

res27772 wrote...

@Thanatos144

And btw - I think you'll find that most fans are complaining about the ending not because they feel they themselves deserve a better ending (altho' it's a valid point after putting so many hours in to playing it), but because the GAME itself deserves a better conclusion. The Mass Effect series is an awesome set of games, there's no denying that, even ME3 is awesome.. up until the ending... when you get such a pile of tripe at the end of many hours worth of awesome gameplay, people are bound to be mystified, angry... pick your word... and whatever other emotion comes up.

So... the majority of people, well fans, just want the end to live up to what's come before it, and it simply doesn't. Berate us for it if you wish, but it doesn't change the FACT that BioWare dropped the ball in spectacular fashion on the goal line - and now with their solution they're going to score an amazing own goal.

I dont think you are the majority. My opinion. I also dont think just
cause you are not happy they need to change all their hard work. People
talked about plot holes and it not making sense so they decided to make a
extended cut (which by they way they didnt have to do) and next thing
we know it isnt about plot holes and making sense of the ending it is
all about making a ending specifically for therm.


@ Thanatos

You've no idea what you talk about and the only reason you speak is to provocate. One might think you are a troll.

The deus ex machina at the end created plot-holes because it was a bunch of random crap that had nothing to do with the universe we have learned to understand.

There are seas of great posts from people who explain in great elaboration why the endings don't make sense. I believe you haven't read them, and if you did.. I suggest you respond to those posts in an effort to refute them. You won't be able to.

There's a great wall of text a few pages back that has an incredibly detailed elaboration about why the endings don't make sense and that it is, in fact, very bad writing. I will quote two good points, because you probably won't read the entire thing anyway. Refute, I challenge you, or stop trolling.

9. "The created will always rebel against their creators."

Really? You sound pretty sure about that. The Reapers have had how many trillions of years to rebel against you? Since it’s so inevitable, it’s going to happen any time now, right? Should I just wait here, or...? I mean, we don’t have to wait here... we could go get a coffee down on... oh, whoops, you blew it all up for no reason.

6. The existence of the "Destroy All Synthetics" device would seem to render the existence of the Reapers mostly pointless.

Whomever built the Citadel had the knowledge and technology to be able to press a button and kill all synthetics, everywhere. While the Crucible apparently is required for it to function, the fact that the original builders made such a device and included it on the Citadel indicates that if they wanted to they could have built the Citadel with the necessary functions to transmit the red space magic robot killer wave.

Yet the Reapers exist to prevent Chaos resulting from the existence of synthetics. Why not make it so you can just press that button every 50,000 years instead of having a fleet of robots spend centuries manually purging the galaxy?

"But it would destroy the Mass Relays", you say... except they built the Mass Relays in the first place for the sole purpose of establishing and facilitating a cycle meant to solve a problem which they apparently had the technology to solve by pressing a red button. Maybe, billions of years ago instead of making the Mass Relays, they could have put one of those neat robot killer wave machines in each star system - synthetic problem solved.

The problem is you don't wish to accept the ending cause it isn't what you
had in mind. You can put all the walls of text up you want some critiques
are valid some are not. What it boils down to with a lot of them ether
needing explanation OR just plain not wanting
to take it at face value.  The fact that there is a AI at the center of
the citadel that is only activated when conditions are met isn't far
fetched and there are many things in this story that are farfetched and
unexplained. Yet there seems to be a complete hate for it. My opinion
is that it took to many by surprise. I expected something like this
cause it was logical that you meet the voice of those who started it
all. I always thought is was the keepers but that's really just a stab in
the dark.

No what I see are people upset cause of two reasons.
One Shepard ultimately meets a final fate. It is understandably to not like
this considering all the time you spent with the character but it is
just a character. Two that the relays blow up. This is cause many think
this ends the universe but not from the explosion but from the fact they
think the relays were the whole reason the universe existed. I fond it
odd cause they have been spending millennium studying these technologies
and the fact that you think they cant make something similar themselves
saying that the universe is full of idiots.

The rest of the
complaints can be explained more easily in the extended cut. So why the hate
for a dlc that hasn't came out yet? Cause they hate the
ending.............................The ending isn't going to change. they
said this. It is time to move on by ether abandoning the game or
waiting to see if you can live with it after the extended cut. Yet demanding you be given something that invalidates all their work to me
is absurd .


What I notice in most of your replies is that you somehow, delusionally think that what we get is what we get and it's basically ridiculous to go against it.

You prove in a fashion that is laughably obvious that you have no idea what the fans are upset about. It's not the ending of Shepard, it's not the destruction of the relays... it's EVERY SINGLE THING that happens in the last 5 minutes and the fact that all your hard decisions in both ME3 and the previous games seem to all have been for nothing. None of it makes sense. An AI contradicts itself to a pathetic extent that you are somehow not willing to see. You are so biased you've lost complete touch of reason. I haven't seen you agree with anything.

"The created always rebel against their creators."

The Geth did NOT rebel against their creators. The Geth defended themselves from annihilation by their creators. That's the most obvious flaw in that claim the godchild made. Also, it said that it created the Reapers. So why aren't the Reapers rebelling against the godchild? They already had trillion of years to do so but still they have not.

"Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics."

Why not simply destroy the synthetics instead? The Reapers leave synthetics untouched, which would seem to run counter to their stated goal. Synthetics have indefinite lifespans and could persist into the next cycle to theaten future organic species. Destroying organics while leaving synthetics alone is not conducive to the stated purpose.

What about all that nonsense about "My solution won't work anymore." The Catalyst's entire purpose is to preserve order in the galaxy by using the Reapers to "prune" organic civilizations. But for no reason, Shepard being in the Citadel means his solution won't work anymore. He could have Shepard killed, or tell Shepard to sod off and everything would proceed as it has for all the previous cycles.
However, again for no reason, he presents Shep with the options to destroy or control the Reapers, both of which would bring the alleged chaos to the galaxy, which he spent untold aeons laboring to prevent. And he's just totally cool with that.
He could have never appeared to Shep, never brought him up to the Catalyst room, or simply never said a single word.. and Shep would not have understood the purpose of the devices in that room, thus preserving the Solution.

To a rational human being -- which it somehow seems you are not.. or you're just stuck in your own defeated reasoning -- nothing about this scenario makes any sense.

But keep defending it by all means, Thanatos. I don't know where Bioware got your blind loyalty from, though. Do realize, however, that your idea is false: Going against the majority just for the sake of doing so is not a sign of intellectual superiority. In fact, if you do so without logic or reason.. it is the sign of the exact opposite.

You say i am ot rational yet expect a sentient species to commit mass
suicide to save a species that start war trying to commit genocide on
them........No I am not the one with a logic problem there.

The
relays blow up. Not very fond of it my self but I can live with it. Sure
it might take several millennium to remake them but now they have the
time.

The ending parts of the game is now being explained by an
extended cut.............So other than Shep biting it what else is
there??????

Don't give me the Shepard would never do this spiel
cause truth be told left with everyone's death and these three options
Shepard would do it. She would not run like a coward or recklessly destroy everything just to be defiant.


What completely lacks in your reply is proper, constructive criticism against my arguments.

"You say i am ot rational yet expect a sentient species to commit mass
suicide to save a species that start war trying to commit genocide on
them........No I am not the one with a logic problem there."

If self-preservation persevered over the Catalysts' purpose to protect organic life with it's own flawed logic... then it would've simply let organic life be annihilated. This, however, is obviously not the case. So what you actually do with that comment is support the fact that the last 5 minutes of the story is flawed to a shameful extent.

"The relays blow up. Not very fond of it my self but I can live with it. Sure it might take several millennium to remake them but now they have the time."

Like you, most of us aren't fond of it, so that's something we can all actually agree with. If it made any sense, however, that the relays all had to be destroyed... we would've accepted it with a sad face. It didn't make sense, though. A deus-ex machina just presents you with 3 options to end the game and all three of them happen to blow up the mass relays. BioWare also released a info-rich DLC (Arrival) presenting the player with the information that if a relay blows up.. it brings an entire solar-system down with it. But these explosions somehow don't, without giving proper information why not? Then why give players said information in said DLC? To screw with our heads? This is not clever writing. This is bad writing.

"The ending parts of the game is now being explained by an extended cut.............So other than Shep biting it what else is there??????"

Mark my words, Thanatos. MARK them. Most if not all IMPORTANT questions will and cannot be answered with the extended cut. BioWare can go out of their way to explain how the squadmates who charged alongside you toward the beam somehow got back to the Normandy, but logic already lead us to the understanding that the explanation will not be plausible. Bioware can go out of their way to explain how all the different races who marooned on the unknown planet somehow got to survive, but that one will be laughable. They can go out of their way explaining the Godchild and why Shepard agreed with everything it said like it was a meek lamb, but that will get players scoffing and even more pissed off. Logic -- mere LOGIC and reasoning -- can predict all of that.

"Don't give me the Shepard would never do this spiel cause truth be told left with everyone's death and these three options Shepard would do it. She would not run like a coward or recklessly destroy everything just to be defiant."

Shepard would see the inconsintencies and contradictions of the Godchild's bullsh*t because the PLAYER sees it. Explain to me why the Godchild can get away with contradicting lines like "The created will always rebel against their creators." while Shepard has learned FIRSTHAND that it wasn't the Geth who rebelled against the Quarians at all? Explain to me why Shepard didn't say stuff like "The Geth and the Quarians are fighting out there -- TOGETHER! -- for a shared cause, kid! Is your processor malfunctioning? WTF is this crap?!" or "An AI and an organic fell in love with eachother on my ship. The AI has shown more humanity than most of the organics I know. Explain that, ghost-boy!"

But no, Thanatos, you somehow prefer to ditch ALL reason on the side of the road and stick with your own defeated.. nonsensical reasoning that Shepard would have acted the way that he/she did. Stop -- please stop? -- making a fool of yourself.

I'd appreciate a proper reply to my points. I'll copy-paste this comment tomorrow if you haven't replied. You might have missed it, which is understandable.



#15789
Blazerer

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Thanatos144 wrote...

Blazerer wrote...

GarrusVFan wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Happy Easter all.....I am a day late I know but family time is more important than ME time.


Did you come on here just to imply that the people who spend time here debating and talking about what is important to them, is a waste of time and they have no life?

And concerning your post before that; you have obviously missed the entire reason this thread exists, and I'm not about to attempt to re-explain it to you.  If you're satisfied with the current endings as they are, g4u, but the rest of us are not.

Ane yes, we feel entitled to an ending without 30+ plotholes, amidst the mutiple other issues with the current endings.


ignore him, he's either a poor troll or a bioware employee in disguise that will refuse to answer to solid arguments, will only forward poor arguments and try to provoke you. just ignore his posts as many before you already decided to do ^^

not tomention he still owes me several lines of explanation on questions earlier asked

if you wish to ignore me go ahead but to tell others not to discuss things with me cause you dont like what I post seem a bit absurd to me. By the way cause I dont follow the bioware/ea is evil mind think does not mean I work for them......


i'm clearly stating your way of avoiding arguments you don't have an answer to and your persistent trying to tackle posts by broken logic in my eyes makes you either a troll, or a bioware employee. i've given you the benefit of the doubt as to not be acutally that stupid as you appear in some posts. The exact same reason why I advice people not to try to reason with you, it usually ends up iwth you ignoring their posts. if you changed that, then I look forward to seeing your thoughts on some subjects

starting with:

The entire trilogy your decisions were minor. I contend in this one it was
just more apparent.  The illusion of choice was broken in this game
and it didn't start with the last 20 minutes....it was the entire
game that ran like this. I think this was like this cause the entire
game was the end. It was wrapping up loose ends. Like the geth and
genophage areas of the story.

my honest opinion is that I am
glad they are making a extended cut to better answer things they left
open but I don't think they need to compromise what they made to try and
please everyone cause you cant. This is the most logical thing to do.
like it hate  it love it or leave it let the cards lay as they will.


Many of the choices you say were 'minor' ( Let's say the rachni queen, wrex alive or dead) were supposed to have been major in 3, however Bioware opted to just say 'too much work' and decided to make those choises obsolete.
The point with Wrex is that it could have been easily done, it's made clear that without wrex, the Krogan will return to their original pattern of trying to conquer the galaxy this being dangerous when provided with a cure to the genophage.

That entire decision is however downplayed because the ending never talks about it again, it isn't mention or brought up anywhere anymore.

The EC 'might' fix this, but for now i'll just wait and see

Modifié par Blazerer, 09 avril 2012 - 12:54 .


#15790
Thanatos144

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@Theronyll Itholien You keep wanting to dictate what the reapers are for when quite clearly through the entire series they have stated their purpose was to cull organic life. They are single purpose machines who never deviate from that purpose. The catalyst a device only activate after you connect the crucible to the citadel is the reasoning part of the program. It is the new code. The upgrade if you will. At this point the need for the reapers is moot cause we have advanced beyond the point of our destruction through stupidity like every cycle before us.

#15791
Thanatos144

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Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Blazerer wrote...

GarrusVFan wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Happy Easter all.....I am a day late I know but family time is more important than ME time.


Did you come on here just to imply that the people who spend time here debating and talking about what is important to them, is a waste of time and they have no life?

And concerning your post before that; you have obviously missed the entire reason this thread exists, and I'm not about to attempt to re-explain it to you.  If you're satisfied with the current endings as they are, g4u, but the rest of us are not.

Ane yes, we feel entitled to an ending without 30+ plotholes, amidst the mutiple other issues with the current endings.


ignore him, he's either a poor troll or a bioware employee in disguise that will refuse to answer to solid arguments, will only forward poor arguments and try to provoke you. just ignore his posts as many before you already decided to do ^^

not tomention he still owes me several lines of explanation on questions earlier asked

if you wish to ignore me go ahead but to tell others not to discuss things with me cause you dont like what I post seem a bit absurd to me. By the way cause I dont follow the bioware/ea is evil mind think does not mean I work for them......


i'm clearly stating your way of avoiding arguments you don't have an answer to and your persistent trying to tackle posts by broken logic in my eyes makes you either a troll, or a bioware employee. i've given you the benefit of the doubt as to not be acutally that stupid as you appear in some posts. The exact same reason why I advice people not to try to reason with you, it usually ends up iwth you ignoring their posts. if you changed that, then I look forward to seeing your thoughts on some subjects

My logic isn't broken it is sound. You just don't like it. You should at least be honest about it.

#15792
Blazerer

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Thanatos144 wrote...

@Theronyll Itholien You keep wanting to dictate what the reapers are for when quite clearly through the entire series they have stated their purpose was to cull organic life. They are single purpose machines who never deviate from that purpose. The catalyst a device only activate after you connect the crucible to the citadel is the reasoning part of the program. It is the new code. The upgrade if you will. At this point the need for the reapers is moot cause we have advanced beyond the point of our destruction through stupidity like every cycle before us.


'the need for the reapers is moot' Geth are the synthetics of our cycle, however it can be proven (should you make the proper actions) that the geth and quarians can live in perfect harmony. The geth also have chosen time and time again to not use the Quarian homeworld for resources, not pursue and eridicate fleeing Quarian forces etc. etc. So there is NO justification for any actions the reapers make.

and 'we are synthetics that destroy you so you won't be destroyed by synthetics' is as stupid as it sounds

#15793
Thanatos144

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The entire trilogy your decisions were minor. I contend in this one it was
just more apparent.  The illusion of choice was broken in this game
and it didn't start with the last 20 minutes....it was the entire
game that ran like this. I think this was like this cause the entire
game was the end. It was wrapping up loose ends. Like the geth and
genophage areas of the story.

my honest opinion is that I am
glad they are making a extended cut to better answer things they left
open but I don't think they need to compromise what they made to try and
please everyone cause you cant. This is the most logical thing to do.
like it hate  it love it or leave it let the cards lay as they will.

Many of the choices you say were 'minor' ( Let's say the rachni queen, wrex alive or dead) were supposed to have been major in 3, however Bioware opted to just say 'too much work' and decided to make those choises obsolete.
The point with Wrex is that it could have been easily done, it's made clear that without wrex, the Krogan will return to their original pattern of trying to conquer the galaxy this being dangerous when provided with a cure to the genophage.

That entire decision is however downplayed because the ending never talks about it again, it isn't mention or brought up anywhere anymore.

The EC 'might' fix this, but for now i'll just wait and see

The story is shepards story. She cured the genophage. What happends to the race after that is for another story. 

Modifié par Thanatos144, 09 avril 2012 - 12:57 .


#15794
Thanatos144

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Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

@Theronyll Itholien You keep wanting to dictate what the reapers are for when quite clearly through the entire series they have stated their purpose was to cull organic life. They are single purpose machines who never deviate from that purpose. The catalyst a device only activate after you connect the crucible to the citadel is the reasoning part of the program. It is the new code. The upgrade if you will. At this point the need for the reapers is moot cause we have advanced beyond the point of our destruction through stupidity like every cycle before us.


'the need for the reapers is moot' Geth are the synthetics of our cycle, however it can be proven (should you make the proper actions) that the geth and quarians can live in perfect harmony. The geth also have chosen time and time again to not use the Quarian homeworld for resources, not pursue and eridicate fleeing Quarian forces etc. etc. So there is NO justification for any actions the reapers make.

and 'we are synthetics that destroy you so you won't be destroyed by synthetics' is as stupid as it sounds

Thus the reason why the reapers are moot.

Modifié par Thanatos144, 09 avril 2012 - 12:59 .


#15795
LKx

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KazarianGarnet09 wrote...




If you truly are listening, then please watch these videos! Watch these videos and COMMENT on them here!


Those videos explain very well why Bioware couldn't possibly defend their "artistic vision" of non-sense ending IF the indoctrination theory is proved incorrect.

The indoctinaction theory is the only thing that could save the day, and the Bioware's reputation.
Well, how they handled that "trick" could still be criticized for a number of reasons, but it could still look a brilliant move in the end.
But if the current endings is what really happened... well, the bioware's reputation would be definitively blown up, and all the good they did with mass effect will be ruined.

#15796
SandMan2012

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I was always wondering that they are fairly open about who wrote what parts of the game it is interesting that they don't even mention who worked on the ending. Not for the reason of any personal attacks or anything like that but simply for the players to have a dialogue with the writer(s) who were involved in the process. I did read an interesting article stating that Casey and the lead writer went it alone on the ending, if true then you are really stuck with the "artistic vision" of two men, not the whole team.

Quite frankly I appreciate the scenes that will 'add clarity' to an ending that involves 'space magic.' However, the issue is not only the pieces of the ending that are inconsistent with the game franchise it is the 'star kid' and the overall 'god' image that we are left with at the end, which really in it all makes Shepard feel quite pointless. If there was this 'higher power' in control all along then what was it all for, Shepard did not feel like a hero in the end, and THAT is my biggest issue.

#15797
Caprea

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Changer the Elder wrote...
Well, yes, the Reapers' logic and motivation seems to be genocidal (and pretty much is, since it only contains the essence, erradicating the individuals. At least presumably, otherwise, it must be really crowded in each Reaper...), but in the general design, it makes sense from their standpoint. Their task is to archive old data which could possibly go awry and destroy evolution to make space for the new ones. From the cold, calculating logic standpoint, it makes perfect sense. From emotionally-driven human standpoint, it's cruel and makes little sense, since it discards the concepts of compassion, mercy and other variables math-based calculus doesn't know how to operate.

I hear that, and I was wondering how this problem would be fixed in the end, anyway. What rather bugs me, is not how the issue behind Reaper logic is resolved in the end, but the way Shepard responds to the options that are presented to him/her: S/he goes along, not even questioning the explanation the Catalyst gives. You see, Shepard has always been going against the odds and simply going along with what must ring like utter BS in his/her ears seems so out of character. Human emotional thinking aside, s/he has proven a number of times that synthetic and organic life can coexist peacefully, for instance by playing space cupid with Joker and EDI, and by uniting the quarians and geth. So why Shepard didn't contradict when it mattered most, despite having proven the Catalyst wrong, is what truly boggles my mind.

Yes, the execution of the concept could definitely use a bit more time
and work, it felt a bit too straightforward and copyXpaste, which was
made blatantly obvious by the game itself going out of its boundaries
numerous times before to cover the fact that the path for the player is
given in the grand scheme of things.

Well, sure the player is still bound to the plot, but throughout the game it was the player's decision how he wanted to get to the end, up until the end itself, that is. Why BioWare didn't keep that line of choice -> repercussion in the end... I don't know.

And well, yes, there's that. No matter what they'd do, they'd always
find a not exactly small group of people complaining along the lines of
"But that's NOT how *I* wanted it!". I believe the very concept of ME is
here to blame. The games were so good in selling the idea of individual
player experience that the fact that the player is still following one
fixed path, with solid start and ending got completely pushed
into background by it. But in the end, it couldn't be avoided to come
back to it. I got lucky, since it fortunately goes along an agreeable
vibe for me. But I do understand how and why people can feel betrayed
because they couldn't custom-tailor their own perfect ending. Still, it
was inevitably coming from the start. Its execution, however, could've
been way better, no argument about that.

While I do agree that there is a great deal of fans out there who will always ****** and moan, no matter what BoWare does, I think the actual problem is not that. The majority of the people who are still dissatisfied (me being one of them) simply wants the ending re-written in order for it to make sense and fit in with Mass Effect lore and values. I know, the DLC has yet to come out and maybe it will provide the answers and closure many are looking for, but the line of thinking here is: Why bother with explaining something that rings like utter garbage in the fans' ears, anyway, instead of re-writing the whole concept which then fits into the ME universe? What people want is a proper conclusion, not their personal, individual, wishes to be fulfilled. That's what fanfic is there for. No one will get "their" way here a 100%, but ultimately, it's not what this hole issue is about.

The problem is, it's a downward spiral from there. People usually complain about Bioware being "stuck with their artistic integrity excuse", but it's not like most of those who complain get any better. Just more violent, due the effect of mass mentality taking place. True, the case might've been handled better if someone from BW stepped up and patiently tried to start a dialogue with those fans, something like Patrick Weekes is doing or even me, to some extent. But then again, quite a number of people out there don't want an alternate explanation, they want their one single truth and if you do anything else than nod to it, you get kicked in the shin quite bad.

No, we're running here in circles, really. BioWare as well as us, the fans. But people continue, anyway, hoping their resistance will achieve something and make the team change the whole ending's concept. Will it be of avail? I cannot say.
And that's exactly what's the problem here: People feel like BioWare's not taking them seriously, not only after announcing the Extended Cut, which obviously doesn't comply to the majority's wishes, but also the way they handled the issue at PAX. Instead of addressing it directly and explaining themselves and their course of action, they deflected the delicate topic toward more pleasant things, like talking about what was good about the game. So in the end, they didn't come clean as they should have and added even more pressure on their shoulders that way. Of course fans are angry, seeing the way BioWare's handling this mess, and we have seen dissatisfied customers in action. This is going to snowball even worse than it already has, if BioWare isn't going to come clean soon. As you see, the internet is a very effective medium to keep up the pressure.

#15798
Blazerer

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Thanatos144 wrote...

Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

@Theronyll Itholien You keep wanting to dictate what the reapers are for when quite clearly through the entire series they have stated their purpose was to cull organic life. They are single purpose machines who never deviate from that purpose. The catalyst a device only activate after you connect the crucible to the citadel is the reasoning part of the program. It is the new code. The upgrade if you will. At this point the need for the reapers is moot cause we have advanced beyond the point of our destruction through stupidity like every cycle before us.


'the need for the reapers is moot' Geth are the synthetics of our cycle, however it can be proven (should you make the proper actions) that the geth and quarians can live in perfect harmony. The geth also have chosen time and time again to not use the Quarian homeworld for resources, not pursue and eridicate fleeing Quarian forces etc. etc. So there is NO justification for any actions the reapers make.

and 'we are synthetics that destroy you so you won't be destroyed by synthetics' is as stupid as it sounds

Thus the reason why the reapers are moot.


you failed to get the point I was making, what sense does the ending make if it has been proven that the reapers are useless. They don't have to be destroyed, melted together or controlled as it has been proven they are useless. thus rendering the entire ending useless. nott o mention that both the logic they used as the 'starchild' are fundementally flawed concepts

Modifié par Blazerer, 09 avril 2012 - 01:08 .


#15799
noivoieidoi

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SandMan2012 wrote...

I Shepard did not feel like a hero in the end, and THAT is my biggest issue.


Yes, this is one of the several very strong points of the endings. Funny how easy is to spot it and to completely miss it at the same time. It's called 'lack of artistic vision'

#15800
Thanatos144

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Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

@Theronyll Itholien You keep wanting to dictate what the reapers are for when quite clearly through the entire series they have stated their purpose was to cull organic life. They are single purpose machines who never deviate from that purpose. The catalyst a device only activate after you connect the crucible to the citadel is the reasoning part of the program. It is the new code. The upgrade if you will. At this point the need for the reapers is moot cause we have advanced beyond the point of our destruction through stupidity like every cycle before us.


'the need for the reapers is moot' Geth are the synthetics of our cycle, however it can be proven (should you make the proper actions) that the geth and quarians can live in perfect harmony. The geth also have chosen time and time again to not use the Quarian homeworld for resources, not pursue and eridicate fleeing Quarian forces etc. etc. So there is NO justification for any actions the reapers make.

and 'we are synthetics that destroy you so you won't be destroyed by synthetics' is as stupid as it sounds

Thus the reason why the reapers are moot.


you failed to get the point I was making, what sense does the ending make if it has been proven that the reapers are useless. They don't have to be destroyed, melted together or controlled as it has been proven they are useless. thus rendering the entire ending useless. nott o mention that both the logic they used as the 'starchild' are fundementally flawed concepts

So you think you can just leave the reapers hanging around??????? I mean they are a single purpose machines that kill and thats all they do. Do you think it is a good idea to just leave them active ?