23455 réponses à ce sujet

[SandMan2012]

noivoieidoi wrote...

SandMan2012 wrote...

I Shepard did not feel like a hero in the end, and THAT is my biggest issue.

Yes, this is one of the several very strong points of the endings. Funny how easy is to spot it and to completely miss it at the same time. It's called 'lack of artistic vision'

 

I never really realised it until now, I just had this revelation, and to be honest, more people need to make this point.

[noivoieidoi]

BoneDealer wrote...

Besides the point of only having 3 choose your own endings that are all essentially the same.

-‘Only’? Yeah, here’s the ‘entitlement’ bit
-‘That are essentially the same’ Please, continue the story. It should make sense for everybody, regardless the personal last choice. Can’t? You will understand now - there are 3 main endings (paths, actually, not exactly endings), esentially different.
Everything following that is wrong, because 1. the foundation is wrong and 2. because demands logical explanations easy to infer and explanations for artistic concepts that take years of education to begin to understand. PM me if you are interested in a list of books and literary analysis to begin with.
However, since for me everything is clear and I’m willing to help, I may be persuaded to answer one question at a time. Why one? Like I said, although some questions have simple and obvious answers, the artistic concepts may require pages of text. It isn’t easy to explain a metaphor, for instance. The ability to understand them usually takes years of study and training and should be gained mainly in school.
Example 1 (short and obvious answer): Can a Reaper-ravaged Earth support all those people if the Mass Relays are destroyed? YES. Logic: How large is the galactic fleet? Maybe millions of individuals? How many planets are colonized in Solar system? How many inhabitants before the Reapers’ invasion – billions? How many now? Clearly, even with the infrastructure destroyed, the planets around the Sun can easily assimilate and support several millions immigrants. The technology and provisions on board the ships may also vastly speed up the recovery effort on the planets.
Example 2 (long answer, prerequisites required - like several years of primary school): are the stargazers decendants of the Normandy crew? The answer is ‘could be, doesn’t matter, they are there for you, the player, not for you, Commander Shepard’; the explanation is too long.
Normally, the philosophy of the 3 main paths in the ending I could sum up on 1-2 pages, for an educated public. Obviously, in this particular case, it is simply impossible. And no DLC could ever do that. The solution is to play other games and come back to this in several years. Meanwhile, a sustained effort to avoid garbage and read some literature is a compulsory requirement. Seriously and honestly, no irony at all.

[Blazerer]

Thanatos144 wrote...

Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

@Theronyll Itholien You keep wanting to dictate what the reapers are for when quite clearly through the entire series they have stated their purpose was to cull organic life. They are single purpose machines who never deviate from that purpose. The catalyst a device only activate after you connect the crucible to the citadel is the reasoning part of the program. It is the new code. The upgrade if you will. At this point the need for the reapers is moot cause we have advanced beyond the point of our destruction through stupidity like every cycle before us.

'the need for the reapers is moot' Geth are the synthetics of our cycle, however it can be proven (should you make the proper actions) that the geth and quarians can live in perfect harmony. The geth also have chosen time and time again to not use the Quarian homeworld for resources, not pursue and eridicate fleeing Quarian forces etc. etc. So there is NO justification for any actions the reapers make.

and 'we are synthetics that destroy you so you won't be destroyed by synthetics' is as stupid as it sounds

Thus the reason why the reapers are moot.

you failed to get the point I was making, what sense does the ending make if it has been proven that the reapers are useless. They don't have to be destroyed, melted together or controlled as it has been proven they are useless. thus rendering the entire ending useless. nott o mention that both the logic they used as the 'starchild' are fundementally flawed concepts

So you think you can just leave the reapers hanging around??????? I mean they are a single purpose machines that kill and thats all they do. Do you think it is a good idea to just leave them active ?

if the catalyst really DOES control them, then proving to him that his logic is flawed should evade the entire need to blow up every mass relay, thus dooming the entire galaxy for atleast another cycle.

[jeweledleah]

Eryri wrote...

Daramatis wrote...

For me, possibly the best moment was the introduction of Kaidan as a gay love interest, which I didn't know about until I had the conversation with him on the Citadel. I have the Collector's Edition guide which seemed to suggest he was only available to female Shepards, so I was totally unprepared for his revelation, I was amazed, stunned! I even checked the forums to make sure I hadn't done something wrong and had encountered a bug! To put this into context, as a gay man and long-time gamer I've been used to having to role play heterosexual in games - no real big deal for me, opened my eyes to "the other side of the fence".

I remember some of the forum activity when gay relationships were mooted for ME2, and when "alien sexual activity" was reported in some media in a somewhat hysterical way. So to discover that the character I was drawn to the most from ME1, and who I had imagined my Shepard being closest to through the entire story arc, had most empathy for, could be romanced, that was a hugely memorable moment for me, as a gamer and as a gay man in society - important because of the bravery of Bioware to address this issue, to take a chance at possibly alienating some players with no guarantee of a countering positive reaction - Bioware didn't have to add this, I'd have played it, indeed was playing it without knowing this was possible. And the gentle, respectful way it was handled was beautiful - not gratuitous but emotionally tender - the voice actors (Mark Meer and Raphael Sbarge) did a breathtaking job of conveying the emotional content of the romance scenes - my utter thanks and respect to the writers, actors and graphics dept. for capturing these moments - from the minute facial expression changes - Shepard's initial surprise at the revelation, to the smile of understanding he felt the same, to the smile when Kaidan comes to his cabin and distracts him at the door with a bottle of wine, the playful but charged love scene, to the final conversation in London and one last kiss.

Agreed. My male Shepard romanced Kaidan too. Bioware does deserve praise for this. And even EA deserves praise for standing up to the homophobic lobbying from assorted right wing nutters. 

Now if only Shep and Kaidan could have their happy ending, get married and buy a vinyard on Eden Prime (instead of Shep getting his face burned off, and Kaidan getting marooned God-knows-where), the game would be perfect!

it was included MAINLY because a relatively small group of fans lobbied for it relentlessly, through the entirety of the ME3 development.  notice that they didn't do same to Ashley. not enough loud demand (and btw, other then the date conversation, the rest of the romance is a cropped down femshep version)

which is why its so.. damn galling that they give the fans this, despite it not being original plan for the character, but dug their heels in on game endings.

@ Charger - its hard to be optimistic when you have no reason to be.  unless you are one of those people who thinks that when Sadam Hussein sings his little "I can change" song to Satan, in South Park, he actualy means it  (I was going to originaly compare it to women who stay in abusive relationships, but decided that it was too tactless, and went with fictional abusive relationship instead.)  I'll be optimistic when they show me i have a reason to be. 

right now, between their "artistic integrity" and various derisive comments about unhappy fans?  yeah.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 09 avril 2012 - 01:29 .

[Thanatos144]

Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

@Theronyll Itholien You keep wanting to dictate what the reapers are for when quite clearly through the entire series they have stated their purpose was to cull organic life. They are single purpose machines who never deviate from that purpose. The catalyst a device only activate after you connect the crucible to the citadel is the reasoning part of the program. It is the new code. The upgrade if you will. At this point the need for the reapers is moot cause we have advanced beyond the point of our destruction through stupidity like every cycle before us.

'the need for the reapers is moot' Geth are the synthetics of our cycle, however it can be proven (should you make the proper actions) that the geth and quarians can live in perfect harmony. The geth also have chosen time and time again to not use the Quarian homeworld for resources, not pursue and eridicate fleeing Quarian forces etc. etc. So there is NO justification for any actions the reapers make.

and 'we are synthetics that destroy you so you won't be destroyed by synthetics' is as stupid as it sounds

Thus the reason why the reapers are moot.

you failed to get the point I was making, what sense does the ending make if it has been proven that the reapers are useless. They don't have to be destroyed, melted together or controlled as it has been proven they are useless. thus rendering the entire ending useless. nott o mention that both the logic they used as the 'starchild' are fundementally flawed concepts

So you think you can just leave the reapers hanging around??????? I mean they are a single purpose machines that kill and thats all they do. Do you think it is a good idea to just leave them active ?

if the catalyst really DOES control them, then proving to him that his logic is flawed should evade the entire need to blow up every mass relay, thus dooming the entire galaxy for atleast another cycle.

Again you are failing to take in machine logic. The relay have out
lived their purpose to them. They were traps since now they no longer
need to trap the organic life they destroy them.  You wish for them not
to is immaterial .

[Blazerer]

noivoieidoi wrote...
-‘Only’? Yeah, here’s the ‘entitlement’ bit

The promise for this game was 16 different endings that would differ based on choices made in 1 and 2, not to mention 3. They would be fundementally different and provide closure.

- the ending is confusing as hell, full of plotholes.
- the promises were never met. that's not entitlement, that's being lied to.

Example 1 (short and obvious answer): Can a Reaper-ravaged Earth support all those people if the Mass Relays are destroyed? YES. Logic: How large is the galactic fleet? Maybe millions of individuals? How many planets are colonized in Solar system? How many inhabitants before the Reapers’ invasion – billions? How many now? Clearly, even with the infrastructure destroyed, the planets around the Sun can easily assimilate and support several millions immigrants. The technology and provisions on board the ships may also vastly speed up the recovery effort on the planets.

- reapers aimed for the largest city centers first, followed by targets of importance.
- they've had months of time to do this
That means that food production and distribution centers would surely be targeted. Now we have a planet plunged into chaos, entire cities reduced to rubble and ash, which leaves many settlements hundreds of kilometers from each other. the fleet is made for war, not for supply shutteling.

So we have a devestated system (earth, the moon, mars were all under attack), several milions of people suddenly needing food, medical supplies, all that kind of things. (that's just the fleet, not all the normal civilians on the planets) many of those fleet members can't digest normal earthen food. Mars has no stable atmosphere, and only the moon could sustain life without problems (this expecting that the reapers did NOT target the environmental devices required to sustain life on the moon)
The fleet would not have ANY leading scientist on board, all the scientists would have worked on the crucible, which was captured by reaper forces.

So no, it is impossible that earth could sustain that population, not to mention that the moon itself could never properly produce food without resources from earth. At the very least the Quarians and Turians would die, most of the other wouldn't make it due to lack of medicin, diseases and lack of food.

Example 2 (long answer, prerequisites required - like several years of primary school): are the stargazers decendants of the Normandy crew? The answer is ‘could be, doesn’t matter, they are there for you, the player, not for you, Commander Shepard’; the explanation is too long.
Normally, the philosophy of the 3 main paths in the ending I could sum up on 1-2 pages, for an educated public. Obviously, in this particular case, it is simply impossible. And no DLC could ever do that. The solution is to play other games and come back to this in several years. Meanwhile, a sustained effort to avoid garbage and read some literature is a compulsory requirement. Seriously and honestly, no irony at all.

I love the fact that you are simply stating that you are better than all of us. Most of us have several degrees in sciences, philosophic studies and economy so **** that statement.
Secondly, if you make a game it is supposed to be audible for your audience, if you state that this is impossible then you just admitted the ending is badly written and fundementally wrong. ( you really annoy me with your attitude)
Thirdly, There is no explanation why a crew of several tens of people can sustain
a population without horrendous genetic diseases and conflictions.
And lastly, there is no philosophy on the endings. I tried comparing it to other great works of art, greek tragedies and whatnot and this would have made sense in no situation.
There is no justification for 'we are synthetics and we destroy you so you don't get destroyed by synthetics', there is no justification for destroying several years worth of earlier established lore and character development.


Summary: you are a pretentious **** and should go back to primary school as you so nicely told us. also learn grammar and punctuation, that might jsut make your text readable without having to reread every line thrice.

Modifié par Blazerer, 09 avril 2012 - 01:56 .

[Blazerer]

Thanatos144 wrote...

Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

@Theronyll Itholien You keep wanting to dictate what the reapers are for when quite clearly through the entire series they have stated their purpose was to cull organic life. They are single purpose machines who never deviate from that purpose. The catalyst a device only activate after you connect the crucible to the citadel is the reasoning part of the program. It is the new code. The upgrade if you will. At this point the need for the reapers is moot cause we have advanced beyond the point of our destruction through stupidity like every cycle before us.

'the need for the reapers is moot' Geth are the synthetics of our cycle, however it can be proven (should you make the proper actions) that the geth and quarians can live in perfect harmony. The geth also have chosen time and time again to not use the Quarian homeworld for resources, not pursue and eridicate fleeing Quarian forces etc. etc. So there is NO justification for any actions the reapers make.

and 'we are synthetics that destroy you so you won't be destroyed by synthetics' is as stupid as it sounds

Thus the reason why the reapers are moot.

you failed to get the point I was making, what sense does the ending make if it has been proven that the reapers are useless. They don't have to be destroyed, melted together or controlled as it has been proven they are useless. thus rendering the entire ending useless. nott o mention that both the logic they used as the 'starchild' are fundementally flawed concepts

So you think you can just leave the reapers hanging around??????? I mean they are a single purpose machines that kill and thats all they do. Do you think it is a good idea to just leave them active ?

if the catalyst really DOES control them, then proving to him that his logic is flawed should evade the entire need to blow up every mass relay, thus dooming the entire galaxy for atleast another cycle.

Again you are failing to take in machine logic. The relay have out
lived their purpose to them. They were traps since now they no longer
need to trap the organic life they destroy them.  You wish for them not
to is immaterial .

the relays and citadel were made to ensure 'you developed along the paths we desire'( - Sovereign) The only reason for this would be that organics would learn space travel before they got the living hell kicked out of them by synthetics. something that would have been required way earlier without mass relay technology. both for tasks on the homeplanet as for off-world mining installations.

Secondly, for machines 'cleaning up behind oneself' is illogical. The relays have outlived their purpose for themselves, yes but only once they returned to darkspace. Even then destroying the relays would only damage the remaining species. even with their broken logic, damaging space-faring species once proven they could live with synthetics would only damage the potential for peace

[Thanatos144]

Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

@Theronyll Itholien You keep wanting to dictate what the reapers are for when quite clearly through the entire series they have stated their purpose was to cull organic life. They are single purpose machines who never deviate from that purpose. The catalyst a device only activate after you connect the crucible to the citadel is the reasoning part of the program. It is the new code. The upgrade if you will. At this point the need for the reapers is moot cause we have advanced beyond the point of our destruction through stupidity like every cycle before us.

'the need for the reapers is moot' Geth are the synthetics of our cycle, however it can be proven (should you make the proper actions) that the geth and quarians can live in perfect harmony. The geth also have chosen time and time again to not use the Quarian homeworld for resources, not pursue and eridicate fleeing Quarian forces etc. etc. So there is NO justification for any actions the reapers make.

and 'we are synthetics that destroy you so you won't be destroyed by synthetics' is as stupid as it sounds

Thus the reason why the reapers are moot.

you failed to get the point I was making, what sense does the ending make if it has been proven that the reapers are useless. They don't have to be destroyed, melted together or controlled as it has been proven they are useless. thus rendering the entire ending useless. nott o mention that both the logic they used as the 'starchild' are fundementally flawed concepts

So you think you can just leave the reapers hanging around??????? I mean they are a single purpose machines that kill and thats all they do. Do you think it is a good idea to just leave them active ?

if the catalyst really DOES control them, then proving to him that his logic is flawed should evade the entire need to blow up every mass relay, thus dooming the entire galaxy for atleast another cycle.

Again you are failing to take in machine logic. The relay have out
lived their purpose to them. They were traps since now they no longer
need to trap the organic life they destroy them.  You wish for them not
to is immaterial .

the relays and citadel were made to ensure 'you developed along the paths we desire'( - Sovereign) The only reason for this would be that organics would learn space travel before they got the living hell kicked out of them by synthetics. something that would have been required way earlier without mass relay technology. both for tasks on the homeplanet as for off-world mining installations.

Secondly, for machines 'cleaning up behind oneself' is illogical. The relays have outlived their purpose for themselves, yes but only once they returned to darkspace. Even then destroying the relays would only damage the remaining species. even with their broken logic, damaging space-faring species once proven they could live with synthetics would only damage the potential for peace

I thought maybe it was cause you just didnt understand but you have shown that you just dont wish to. You dont like the ending and nothing is going to change that. I am guessing you best option is to find some other game to play cause this one isnt going to make you happy.

[Blazerer]

Thanatos144 wrote...

Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

@Theronyll Itholien You keep wanting to dictate what the reapers are for when quite clearly through the entire series they have stated their purpose was to cull organic life. They are single purpose machines who never deviate from that purpose. The catalyst a device only activate after you connect the crucible to the citadel is the reasoning part of the program. It is the new code. The upgrade if you will. At this point the need for the reapers is moot cause we have advanced beyond the point of our destruction through stupidity like every cycle before us.

'the need for the reapers is moot' Geth are the synthetics of our cycle, however it can be proven (should you make the proper actions) that the geth and quarians can live in perfect harmony. The geth also have chosen time and time again to not use the Quarian homeworld for resources, not pursue and eridicate fleeing Quarian forces etc. etc. So there is NO justification for any actions the reapers make.

and 'we are synthetics that destroy you so you won't be destroyed by synthetics' is as stupid as it sounds

Thus the reason why the reapers are moot.

you failed to get the point I was making, what sense does the ending make if it has been proven that the reapers are useless. They don't have to be destroyed, melted together or controlled as it has been proven they are useless. thus rendering the entire ending useless. nott o mention that both the logic they used as the 'starchild' are fundementally flawed concepts

So you think you can just leave the reapers hanging around??????? I mean they are a single purpose machines that kill and thats all they do. Do you think it is a good idea to just leave them active ?

if the catalyst really DOES control them, then proving to him that his logic is flawed should evade the entire need to blow up every mass relay, thus dooming the entire galaxy for atleast another cycle.

Again you are failing to take in machine logic. The relay have out
lived their purpose to them. They were traps since now they no longer
need to trap the organic life they destroy them.  You wish for them not
to is immaterial .

the relays and citadel were made to ensure 'you developed along the paths we desire'( - Sovereign) The only reason for this would be that organics would learn space travel before they got the living hell kicked out of them by synthetics. something that would have been required way earlier without mass relay technology. both for tasks on the homeplanet as for off-world mining installations.

Secondly, for machines 'cleaning up behind oneself' is illogical. The relays have outlived their purpose for themselves, yes but only once they returned to darkspace. Even then destroying the relays would only damage the remaining species. even with their broken logic, damaging space-faring species once proven they could live with synthetics would only damage the potential for peace

I thought maybe it was cause you just didnt understand but you have shown that you just dont wish to. You dont like the ending and nothing is going to change that. I am guessing you best option is to find some other game to play cause this one isnt going to make you happy.

then enlighten me if you understand, where am I wrong?

[shodiswe]

JasonTan87 wrote...

I absolutely adored Liara's Time Capsule scene.

That and the dialogue at the end with Anderson. JHale's rendition of my wounded Shepard was absolutely amazing.

I liked that one aswell.

The scenes from the genopage missions and the geth/quarrian conflict were my favrites over all though.

From the Citadel:
Talking down Din Korlak wasn't that bad either all while having Zaeed telling me it was a waste of time trying to talk to a volus better nature.  It was short but it worked, even that very grumpy old Volus decided it was time to stand and fight, instead of trying to out run the problems.
While it feelt like he deserved the rough treatment it feelt satisfying to be able to sway him instead. Maybe not my favrite moments but it was one of the better Citadel parts.

The part with Ambassador Tali Zorah vas normandy helping the Turian clerk was pretty well played aswell  Even though Shepard didn't do or change anything I loved the scene and small talk.

The mission with the indoctrinated hanar on the citadel was nice  it showed that the whole galaxy was involced, im surprised the crushed and destroyed Batarians could offer more military aid that the Hanar and drell though. thoguh the apparent lack of support from the cditadel races is shocking even if you saved the council and did everything for them... I guess the reapers really did hit them that hard... except fot the Salarians... they are hoarding their resources and they arn't even under attack.

I liked most of the game except for the ending which was weird, I had issues with killing of an allied race just to win, (geth) I saved both the geth and Quarians and now the geth had to die for the onyl endign that could be saved and imported? Also the conversation with the catalyst seemed out of character and unrealistic.. Or maybe it was just the bulletwound and the illusivemans indoctrination attack that made shepard into a gilluble zombie who had lost his tongue.

People complained about the scavenger hunt, not sure where but I know  saw it somewhere. I didn't mind it tbh, I had a stealth ship that could go into reaper controled space and recover rare and valuble resources that had been lost. Made sense to me, I wasn't in a hurry sicne I was waitign for the catalyst to get built and helping people all over the galaxy resist and survive while working on the superweapon. So, no problem there.

Maybe we could have save one scientist on the mars mission that would become a war asset for the crusible? Saving someone always feels good, though it wouldn't have that much to do with the story other than the emotinal victory of saving one in a few hundred.. Though the mission had enough going on with Ashley, I assume Kaidan would have been there if I had picked him instead of Ash. Im glad to hear Kaidan wouldn't have been any nice in ME2 or 3 than Ash was. During ME2 I was startign to wonder if I had made a misstake in ME 1 when I saved Ash   but they we're both just as bad about the Cerberus support in ME2 and onwards I hear, which is a good thing.

[kipac]

I'd be glad if geth and EDI doesn't die in destruction choice unlike what Catalyst said.
But in any way, I think the last moment of game is stupid unless the indoctrination theory is right, because suddenly bringing up some random god-like being (Catalyst) in science fiction is both stupidest and worst thing to do.
Seriously, reapers kill organics to prevent making synthetics that will eventually dominate all organics? Why not just destroy synthetics then?
And reapers are machines themselves too, and they're the ones that actually massacre organics and everything.

[THEREALMC24]

I'd love to know why Bioware chose to end the game the way they did. Did they really not know what we were expecting? I didn't want much, just for my level of preparation to affect the outcome in a logical way. If I prepared poorly I expected the Reapers to destroy the fleet utterly. If I prepared well I expected to defeat them in battle, and maybe one or two in between options. Instead all the war assets affect is whether you get the control or synthesis options. How does the size of my army affecting what choices the catalyst gives me make any logical sense? Please add some new endings Bioware! I'll happily pay for them!

[Thanatos144]

i wonder that the destruction of all synthetic is because the pulse that destroys the reapers doesn't differentiates between geth and them....Like EMP doesn't differentiate from a car and calculator?

[Blazerer]

Thanatos144 wrote...

i wonder that the destruction of all synthetic is because the pulse that destroys the reapers doesn't differentiates between geth and them....Like EMP doesn't differentiate from a car and calculator?

that would mean the beam itself must have been an EMP or the likes, which would effectively render the entire fleet and every piece of equipment in the galaxy useless o.O It could be a simple signal that reapers are programmed to obey to, but that would mean the Geth wouldn´t be affected

[Thanatos144]

Blazerer wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

i wonder that the destruction of all synthetic is because the pulse that destroys the reapers doesn't differentiates between geth and them....Like EMP doesn't differentiate from a car and calculator?

that would mean the beam itself must have been an EMP or the likes, which would effectively render the entire fleet and every piece of equipment in the galaxy useless o.O It could be a simple signal that reapers are programmed to obey to, but that would mean the Geth wouldn´t be affected

Why if it was only after certain paramenters? the only things all thiose had in comon was they are all self aware machines. You dont need machine to think to work.

[Daramatis]

jeweledleah wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Daramatis wrote...

For me, possibly the best moment was the introduction of Kaidan as a gay love interest, which I didn't know about until I had the conversation with him on the Citadel. I have the Collector's Edition guide which seemed to suggest he was only available to female Shepards, so I was totally unprepared for his revelation, I was amazed, stunned! I even checked the forums to make sure I hadn't done something wrong and had encountered a bug! To put this into context, as a gay man and long-time gamer I've been used to having to role play heterosexual in games - no real big deal for me, opened my eyes to "the other side of the fence".

I remember some of the forum activity when gay relationships were mooted for ME2, and when "alien sexual activity" was reported in some media in a somewhat hysterical way. So to discover that the character I was drawn to the most from ME1, and who I had imagined my Shepard being closest to through the entire story arc, had most empathy for, could be romanced, that was a hugely memorable moment for me, as a gamer and as a gay man in society - important because of the bravery of Bioware to address this issue, to take a chance at possibly alienating some players with no guarantee of a countering positive reaction - Bioware didn't have to add this, I'd have played it, indeed was playing it without knowing this was possible. And the gentle, respectful way it was handled was beautiful - not gratuitous but emotionally tender - the voice actors (Mark Meer and Raphael Sbarge) did a breathtaking job of conveying the emotional content of the romance scenes - my utter thanks and respect to the writers, actors and graphics dept. for capturing these moments - from the minute facial expression changes - Shepard's initial surprise at the revelation, to the smile of understanding he felt the same, to the smile when Kaidan comes to his cabin and distracts him at the door with a bottle of wine, the playful but charged love scene, to the final conversation in London and one last kiss.

Agreed. My male Shepard romanced Kaidan too. Bioware does deserve praise for this. And even EA deserves praise for standing up to the homophobic lobbying from assorted right wing nutters. 

Now if only Shep and Kaidan could have their happy ending, get married and buy a vinyard on Eden Prime (instead of Shep getting his face burned off, and Kaidan getting marooned God-knows-where), the game would be perfect!

it was included MAINLY because a relatively small group of fans lobbied for it relentlessly, through the entirety of the ME3 development.  notice that they didn't do same to Ashley. not enough loud demand (and btw, other then the date conversation, the rest of the romance is a cropped down femshep version)

which is why its so.. damn galling that they give the fans this, despite it not being original plan for the character, but dug their heels in on game endings.

@ Charger - its hard to be optimistic when you have no reason to be.  unless you are one of those people who thinks that when Sadam Hussein sings his little "I can change" song to Satan, in South Park, he actualy means it  (I was going to originaly compare it to women who stay in abusive relationships, but decided that it was too tactless, and went with fictional abusive relationship instead.)  I'll be optimistic when they show me i have a reason to be. 

right now, between their "artistic integrity" and various derisive comments about unhappy fans?  yeah.

Hi Jeweledleah.

Thanks for the info.  Ultimately Bioware didn't have to add Kaidan as a gay love interest at all, as you say, it was a very small group who would be affected by this so no real pressure existed.  I can't comment on the Ashley side of thing, but I don't really care if it was a cut-down version of the femshep romance, it was there and deeply affected me as a player on a personal level.  I will always respect Bioware for adding this no matter what; because it affected a minority and because of the respectful way they treated the subject.

I don't want to get involved in the endings debate (beyond trying to get an ending that I should already be able to get - Shepard Lives) as many other posters are doing a great job of vocalising things; I was just wanting to answer the original question from 600-odd pages back.   

Eryri - thanks for your posting, sounds like a well deserved ending to me, though I imagine a scene where they are walking along a beach and Shepard stops to pick up a shell, keeping it in memory or Morden. 

Modifié par Daramatis, 09 avril 2012 - 02:55 .

[kal_reegar]

Remove the starchild.
You can't introduce, 10 minutes before the end:
- new story elements
- a semi-divine charachter that change the prospective and the spirit of the entire trilogy (it was supposed to be science fiction, not "magic fiction")
- new questions and plot holes

So, remove the starchild.

or, if you won't/can't litterally remove the cutscene with the starchild (and, belive me, I understand the risks), FIND A WAY TO DRASTICALLY REDUCE HIS IMPACT. Explain how and why he was lying or something.
Indoctrination theory could also serve you well.


of course, as many others, I suggest more closure, focus on team-mates e and consequences, fix the plotholes, maybe some sort happy ending.... but what I really care is that you understand that the source of all problems is the starchild itself

[improperdancing]

SandMan2012 wrote...

noivoieidoi wrote...

SandMan2012 wrote...

I Shepard did not feel like a hero in the end, and THAT is my biggest issue.

Yes, this is one of the several very strong points of the endings. Funny how easy is to spot it and to completely miss it at the same time. It's called 'lack of artistic vision'

 

I never really realised it until now, I just had this revelation, and to be honest, more people need to make this point.

I'm quoting myself from an earlier post here, but you will probably enjoy it:

---

"The one thing I really hate in this whole debate is the people that loved the ending describing what Shepherd did as a "heroic sacrifice." You guys do realize that a sacrifice is a choice, right? When you're confronted with three options and you die in all of them, and you have to choose one, that's not a sacrifice.

A sacrifice would have been giving Shepherd a choice between dying himself and saving his friends, or living himself and watching many of his friends die. That's a sacrifice. Shepherd has the choice to live or die and, if he chooses death, his sacrifice has actual meaning.

In Mass Effect 3, there is no heroic sacrifice. Shepherd is going to die regardless of what happens. He has no option to reject the Star Child and potentially survive himself, but at great cost to his friends and allies. His only
options are (as the pic above so lovingly describes it) genocide, slavery, or homogenization, and he is going to die in all three.

Not only is Shepherd not a hero in the current endings, but in fact he is just as bad as the Reapers he has spent three games trying to thwart.

As bad as the current endings are, even adding a "F*ck you, we'll take our chances" dialogue option would have made the finale at least somewhat satisfying. And really, that would have been a true sacrifice, as
Shepherd would be dying in the form of one final stand against bullsh*t and bad writing."

Modifié par improperdancing, 09 avril 2012 - 02:54 .

[Daramatis]

shodiswe wrote...

JasonTan87 wrote...

I absolutely adored Liara's Time Capsule scene.

That and the dialogue at the end with Anderson. JHale's rendition of my wounded Shepard was absolutely amazing.

I liked that one aswell.

The scenes from the genopage missions and the geth/quarrian conflict were my favrites over all though.

From the Citadel:
Talking down Din Korlak wasn't that bad either all while having Zaeed telling me it was a waste of time trying to talk to a volus better nature.  It was short but it worked, even that very grumpy old Volus decided it was time to stand and fight, instead of trying to out run the problems.
While it feelt like he deserved the rough treatment it feelt satisfying to be able to sway him instead. Maybe not my favrite moments but it was one of the better Citadel parts.

The part with Ambassador Tali Zorah vas normandy helping the Turian clerk was pretty well played aswell  Even though Shepard didn't do or change anything I loved the scene and small talk.

The mission with the indoctrinated hanar on the citadel was nice  it showed that the whole galaxy was involced, im surprised the crushed and destroyed Batarians could offer more military aid that the Hanar and drell though. thoguh the apparent lack of support from the cditadel races is shocking even if you saved the council and did everything for them... I guess the reapers really did hit them that hard... except fot the Salarians... they are hoarding their resources and they arn't even under attack.

I liked most of the game except for the ending which was weird, I had issues with killing of an allied race just to win, (geth) I saved both the geth and Quarians and now the geth had to die for the onyl endign that could be saved and imported? Also the conversation with the catalyst seemed out of character and unrealistic.. Or maybe it was just the bulletwound and the illusivemans indoctrination attack that made shepard into a gilluble zombie who had lost his tongue.

People complained about the scavenger hunt, not sure where but I know  saw it somewhere. I didn't mind it tbh, I had a stealth ship that could go into reaper controled space and recover rare and valuble resources that had been lost. Made sense to me, I wasn't in a hurry sicne I was waitign for the catalyst to get built and helping people all over the galaxy resist and survive while working on the superweapon. So, no problem there.

Maybe we could have save one scientist on the mars mission that would become a war asset for the crusible? Saving someone always feels good, though it wouldn't have that much to do with the story other than the emotinal victory of saving one in a few hundred.. Though the mission had enough going on with Ashley, I assume Kaidan would have been there if I had picked him instead of Ash. Im glad to hear Kaidan wouldn't have been any nice in ME2 or 3 than Ash was. During ME2 I was startign to wonder if I had made a misstake in ME 1 when I saved Ash   but they we're both just as bad about the Cerberus support in ME2 and onwards I hear, which is a good thing.

Shodiswe - yup, Kaidan was kinda rough in ME2, didn't trust Shepard as he was working for Cerberus - kinda crushing for me, and I loved Shepard's response when Kaidan walked away, about getting off the planet, he'd had enough of it.  Is that similar to Ash?  Kaidan was won round in ME3, but took some hard work and patience to convince him Shepard was still Shepard and no longer part of Cerberus.  There were some great interactions when Shepard found the vid logs regarding his ressurection, just how dead he had actually been - brain dead rather than on life support!

The time capsule scene was superb, I agree.  I actually thought this could be how the tale was being relayed, as some future people opening it and finding the story, or even thought that Liara with her long life could have been telling it as it was to some kids in her 900s. 

Modifié par Daramatis, 09 avril 2012 - 02:56 .

[kalikilic]

noivoieidoi wrote...

BoneDealer wrote...

Besides the point of only having 3 choose your own endings that are all essentially the same.

-‘Only’? Yeah, here’s the ‘entitlement’ bit
-‘That are essentially the same’ Please, continue the story. It should make sense for everybody, regardless the personal last choice. Can’t? You will understand now - there are 3 main endings (paths, actually, not exactly endings), esentially different.
Everything following that is wrong, because 1. the foundation is wrong and 2. because demands logical explanations easy to infer and explanations for artistic concepts that take years of education to begin to understand. PM me if you are interested in a list of books and literary analysis to begin with.
However, since for me everything is clear and I’m willing to help, I may be persuaded to answer one question at a time. Why one? Like I said, although some questions have simple and obvious answers, the artistic concepts may require pages of text. It isn’t easy to explain a metaphor, for instance. The ability to understand them usually takes years of study and training and should be gained mainly in school.
Example 1 (short and obvious answer): Can a Reaper-ravaged Earth support all those people if the Mass Relays are destroyed? YES. Logic: How large is the galactic fleet? Maybe millions of individuals? How many planets are colonized in Solar system? How many inhabitants before the Reapers’ invasion – billions? How many now? Clearly, even with the infrastructure destroyed, the planets around the Sun can easily assimilate and support several millions immigrants. The technology and provisions on board the ships may also vastly speed up the recovery effort on the planets.
Example 2 (long answer, prerequisites required - like several years of primary school): are the stargazers decendants of the Normandy crew? The answer is ‘could be, doesn’t matter, they are there for you, the player, not for you, Commander Shepard’; the explanation is too long.
Normally, the philosophy of the 3 main paths in the ending I could sum up on 1-2 pages, for an educated public. Obviously, in this particular case, it is simply impossible. And no DLC could ever do that. The solution is to play other games and come back to this in several years. Meanwhile, a sustained effort to avoid garbage and read some literature is a compulsory requirement. Seriously and honestly, no irony at all.

Vanity; definitely my favourite sin.

[Butane9000]

I always assumed the ending would be like this:

1. engage in the battle for Earth
2. Proceed to board the Citadel to find the catalyst.
3. Harbinger Boss battle. Important Dialogue on why the reapers do what they do. Presumably built to be a record of some ancient civilization, maybe one not even in the milky way. However their orders to assimilate organics never stopped and they repeated the cycle over and over again in the milky way galaxy.
4. Enter the Citadel and locate the catalyst by following TIM.
5. Upon finding the Catalyst you confront TIM and find out the Catalyst is a device that works with the crucible to change the element Zero in the relays into a burst of life altering energy.
6. Your conversation with TIM and Anderson proceeds, he uses his indoctrination on you and Anderson just like in the normal ending etc. etc.
7. Either Anderson dies or lives, Illusive man dies by your hand or his. You proceed to unlock the restraints on the Catalyst when various reapers appear on the screen trying to intimidate you to stop. You rebuff them and activate the catalyst once the crucible attaches.
8. Now the ending is based on your major decisions. There would be more then 3 endings determined by your war asset rating, paragon/renegade choices, crew left alive, Rachni, Geth/Quarian Conflict, Krogan Cure/Fake and other things. The Crucible/Catalyst would launch a beam of energy converting the element zero inside the Relay into a weaponized form to kill off reaper signals.
This cutscene would be similar to the one we have during the destruction ending except there would in fact be more scenes of our crew/allies reactions. However one ending it would be possible for Shepard to die, he could be injured in TIM conversation if he said something wrong or he could succumb from his wounds. He could also die due to the Citadel running out of power after the crucible and loosing it's kinetic barriers and such.

That's what I at least imagined would happen. I am sure Bioware writers could come up with something similar if not outright better. The fact that they didn't and chose a cheap and career staining Deus Ex Machina ending will haunt them for years.

[Rasofe]

Sometimes I wonder, maybe this is all just a bad dream, I've been indoctrinated, and Mass Effect 3 is actually coming out on the day that I wake up, it's all exactly the same but with a better ending.

[Lioneli]

Just uninstalled me3. Don't want anything to do with this bunch of so called "artists".

[jeweledleah]

Daramatis wrote...

Hi Jeweledleah.

Thanks for the info.  Ultimately Bioware didn't have to add Kaidan as a gay love interest at all, as you say, it was a very small group who would be affected by this so no real pressure existed.  I can't comment on the Ashley side of thing, but I don't really care if it was a cut-down version of the femshep romance, it was there and deeply affected me as a player on a personal level.  I will always respect Bioware for adding this no matter what; because it affected a minority and because of the respectful way they treated the subject.

I don't want to get involved in the endings debate (beyond trying to get an ending that I should already be able to get - Shepard Lives) as many other posters are doing a great job of vocalising things; I was just wanting to answer the original question from 600-odd pages back.   

Eryri - thanks for your posting, sounds like a well deserved ending to me, though I imagine a scene where they are walking along a beach and Shepard stops to pick up a shell, keeping it in memory or Morden. 

I will not go into detail on how I feel about that character change (but I do NOT share your feelings, to say the least)

I brought it up becasue we have similar situations here where a group of fans is asking for something of bioware.  and in one case - they give one group of fans, much MUCH smaller group, what they want, while in the other case - more options for the endings, something that's being requested by a MUCH MUCH larger group of fans - they refuse to budge.

 they give people Garrus and Tali to romance.  they permeate the game with so much fan service, you can play a drinking game with all the references and nods.  they make changes that are direct result of fan requests.  many of those changes were done - in later stages of production  (for example - Ashley's armor).  but they don't budge here.

and I have a strong suspicion that its not becasue its a teams artistic integrity.  its because its Mac Walter's and Casey Hudson's pride.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 09 avril 2012 - 03:13 .

[LiarasShield]

The loss of narrative coherence and the choice being ripped out of your hands and having no options really at the ending plus war assets really don't change anything and nothing turns out right or really makes sense without a thousand different theories that our constructed from other fans the ending is just not really that good thanatos I think you're really a die hard for bioware so that even if they make major mistake you'll just ignore them but we can't

Even Mr b explained why the ending were so flawed i really think you need to watch this video before you keep ranting against us