23455 réponses à ce sujet

[JDMiller5150]

This story has yet to receive attention from news leaders. I just emailed at Huffington Post about the movement concerning issues with the ending.

But thats just one person.

If you folks could possibly email them aswell, it would help spur Bioware to address our problems. The email address is below.

scoop@huffingtonpost.com

Make your email as short or as long as you want. As long as you send it, it greatly increases the chance of receiving the noteriety that Mass Effect deserves,

Thank you, and spread the word.

[Jassu1979]

Let's elaborate on the topic of internal consistency:

The Mass Effect universe goes to great lengths to establish how exactly mass effect fields work. This explanation may be spurious when measured by the standards of actual, real science, yet it suffices for the context of a fictional universe.
Now, the Reapers are being portrayed as being technologically superior to the sentient species (who have been cultivated to reach a certain tech-level), allowing for a certain suspension of disbelief when they exhibit "god-like" abilities.
And yet, the series has consistently established certain things the Reapers can and cannot do. Indoctrination, for example, requires physical proximity to a Reaper or their artifacts. Warping people into semi-synthetic monsters requires some sort of physical act (like the spikes in ME1). "Processing" them for the creation of a new Reaper is a lengthy process where victims need to be kept in stasis for an extended period of time. Killing a thrall that's directly controlled by its master renders the Reaper in question vulnerable to attacks and so on and so forth.

Now, if you suddenly present a god-child who can somehow supply synthetic beings with DNA and biological tissue, while simultaneously grafting technological implants upon organics without any sort of medical procedure, that's incompatible with the rest of the universe.

[Blazerer]

There is a thing called Narrative coherence, of which Internal consistency is a part.

basicly, you can do some things that don't normally go with the rules of a universe you created as long as you don't go overboard with it.

now let's see, the last 10 minutes
- magical space lift
- magical space child
- magical space child suddenly taking a form it couldn't possible know, unless it's a mindreader
- spacemagic mind reading
- catatonic main character
- get 3 space magic choices, magicly changing everything
- sudden switch of main goal

I can do this all day, so in short: they managed to create an ending where Narrative coherence is simply broken. No amount of explaining can fix that

[Theronyll Itholien]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Changer the Elder wrote...

It's science fiction. We were explained most of the stuff in game by the creators simply claiming "that's a mass effect field, it works that way". We are explained that adamantium in X-Men is unbreakable and indestructible because it simply is. We are explained that the Force in Star Wars simply is.

Two words: internal consistency.

"It's science fiction/fantasy" is not an excuse for a lack of internal consistency.
Even the fantasy genre (which allows for a considerably greater degree of "magic" as an explanation) needs to stick to the rules it has previously established within that particular continuity, or else the fictional universe stops to make any sense.
If an X-Men comic showed adamantium being destroyed or broken, for example, that'd need to be a major plot point in need of a good explanation. Without an explanation, it'd simply be an error that does not line up with the "reality" of this fictional world.
"It's just a fiction" is not an excuse for bad writing and internal inconsistency.
The Mass Effect universe is not really "hard" science fiction, even if it's not as whimsical as the Star Wars universe with its lightsabers and "Force"-magic. But it nevertheless sticks to its own lore, its own fictional "laws of nature" - except for the ending.

I admit that I have not followed the discussions that have been going on with Changer, but if he doesn't understand the concept of internal concistency.. I have the impression that people have wasted their time discussing with him.

If a Jedi suddenly turned into the Hulk and found a gold ring that turned him invisible.. nobody would know Star Wars today. It would've been a very, VERY bad movie from the past.

And that's almost how ME will go into history, due to those last five minutes that destroy the narrative coherence; the internal concistency. There was no magic in ME. Everything was explained by fictional science (rings a bell?). How the mass effect worked made scientific sense. Even how indoctrination worked. I would love to see BioWare try to scientifically explain the starchild; shepard controlling the reapers; the synthesis merge; the survival of both humans and Quarians/Turians that marooned on an unknown planet. I'd like to see them try, indeed.

But if you ask for my opinion, I think BioWare dug their own grave by adding to the original ending instead of changing it. The only way the internal inconcistency can be justified, is by the indoctrination theory: shepard was hallucinating.

Too bad BioWare chose pride/ego above customer satisfaction.

[Changer the Elder]

Theronyll Itholien wrote...
I admit that I have not followed the discussions that have been going on with Changer, but if he doesn't understand the concept of internal concistency.. I have the impression that people have wasted their time discussing with him.

Trust me, I do understand the concept of internal consistency. My logic and philosophy is merely working under obviously differnent principles than yours, which probably allows me to accept the endings as logical and fine with the lore of the series.

The fact that we agree to disagree doesn't mean I'm not a worthy conversation partner, let alone weaker in mind. Please, do refrain from that. If you feel I don't have the right to participate in a discussion merely because having an opinion different to that of the majority, I find that kind of sad.

And furthermore, you yourself are calling this a "discussion". If it were an argument, your point would indeed be valid. But from my experience, a discussion is aimed at people and entities exchanging their views and opinions to broaden their horizons. Which, thanks to people like StillOverrated and dae_ex_machina, I'm finding a delight in actually doing. From my point of view, this time can hardly be considered wasted. Hopefully, from their as well but I cannot really be a judge of that.

Modifié par Changer the Elder, 10 avril 2012 - 09:56 .

[Theronyll Itholien]

Changer the Elder wrote...

Theronyll Itholien wrote...
I admit that I have not followed the discussions that have been going on with Changer, but if he doesn't understand the concept of internal concistency.. I have the impression that people have wasted their time discussing with him.

Trust me, I do understand the concept of internal consistency. My logic and philosophy is merely working under obviously differnent principles than yours, which probably allows me to accept the endings as logical and fine with the lore of the series.

The fact that we agree to disagree doesn't mean I'm not a worthy conversation partner, let alone weaker in mind. Please, do refrain from that. If you feel I don't have the right to participate in a discussion merely because having an opinion different to that of the majority, I find that kind of sad. People like StillOverrated, dae_ex_machina and many others are making this discussion to be very worthwhile to broaden my horizons. So, possibly to your dismay, I'm not about to quit it anytime soon.

I hate the fact I can only check the forum on my phone during work. This forum is smartphone unfriendly. I'd love to hear your reasoning, Changer. Because, quite frankly, I can't imagine anyone seeing the coherence in this ending. If you quoted my entire comment I could have referred back to it, but tell me how you would refute the logic I used while I was elaborating, also with the use of examples, the internal inconsistencies.

I apologize for offending you. It was unnecessary. It doesn't diminish the fact that I am stunned with your claim that there is no case of internal INconsistancy with this ending. Would you kindly tell me why you think so? I think BioWare has to go out of their way in order to put the science back in the fiction that is the ending. I truly think they won't be able to.

[LittleBlueChildrenNow]

dea_ex_machina wrote...

LittleBlueChildrenNow wrote...

In my opinion, if your purpose as a company is to entertain, and your customer is no longer having fun, you failed. That's why I am an unsatisfayed customer.
I'm going to bed, it's too late here .

That is true, and quite obviously, you're not the only one that is left unsatisfied here. A lot of people are (me being one of them), and they are damn right to be.
And...

Changer the Elder wrote...
"Hope sustains organics during periods of difficulty. We... admire the concept."

This! Of all the good and even great posts I've read here... this!

Hope... Yes. That's the only thing I have right know. Hope for the DLC to fix something..

[Changer the Elder]

Theronyll Itholien wrote...

I hate the fact I can only check the forum on my phone during work. This forum is smartphone unfriendly. I'd love to hear your reasoning, Changer. Because, quite frankly, I can't imagine anyone seeing the coherence in this ending. If you quoted my entire comment I could have referred back to it, but tell me how you would refute the logic I used while I was elaborating, also with the use of examples, the internal inconsistencies.

As I said to others, it's kind of hard to explain. I find it surprisingly equally hard to phrase why something shouldn't work as to figure out why some other things should, let alone in a language foreign to my own. I've been trying my best to convey why do I feel the way I feel in posts about a kilometer long in total.

I don't find the concept of Synthesis being impossible in-universe since it's Reaper technology, the same one creating synthetic form organic as a bit of a trademark trait. The technology being several magnitudes beyond human comprehension ("Your species has gained the attention of those infinitely greater." ... and about every other Harbinger/Sovereign quib), what's to say what's impossible for it. They manage to travel from Dark space to Sol system in a matter of months "on foot" without the help of the relays. They indoctrinate and slowly turn people into machines just by them being in their presence. Synthesis doesn't strike me as odd.

Neither does the Catalyst's existence, being hinted several times throughout the story (I still have to find the exact quotes for it when I get back from work). I'm not saying the ending wasn't subpar and lacking certain things in execution, but I do find the ideas presented by it not wrong in their core.

But being unable to see what exactly should it contradict in terms of lore and ME mythology, it's a bit hard for me to convey.

Thank you for your sincerity and understanding. And for the apology, too, even though I hardly find it necessary.

Edit: I apologize for not being more elaborate at the moment. Just as this forum wasn't made for portable devices, it wasn't made for our local wireless network. Loading alone takes forever... -.-

Modifié par Changer the Elder, 10 avril 2012 - 10:45 .

[An English Gamer]

Chris Priestly wrote...

We don't appreciate anyone’s feedback about Mass Effect 3 and want you to know that we aren't listening. 

There I fixed it  Seriously though if you are listening you could at least have some ME team members post on the forums... All I've seen are Dragon Age team members. Maybe then we wouldn't feel like you were completely ignoring us as it shows you are definetly looking at sensible threads.

[Jassu1979]

Changer the Elder wrote...

I don't find the concept of Synthesis being impossible in-universe since it's Reaper technology, the same one creating synthetic form organic as a bit of a trademark trait.

While Reaper-tech has been portrayed as being vastly superior to the usual in-game tech, its limitations have been established as well:
Reapers cannot modify their prey's bodies without physical interaction (hence, the need to attack and harvest other species, the husk-spikes in ME1, the statis chambers in ME2 and so forth).
Indoctrination, as well, requires a reaper or an appropriate artifact in close proximity - and that is a mental process, not a physical one.

Going from there to an energy pulse that instantly transforms all organic life into a techno-organic hybrid is TOTALLY inconsistent with the rest of the series.

[Teukki]

I registered here just to get my opinion on the ending(s) out there. If Bioware's listening, as they claim, I gotta do something. What I have to say has alreaby been said a million times, but I'll say it anyway.

I don't want to disrespect Bioware. I love Mass Effect. All the hours (around 300) I invested in playing these games, it wasn't just...it wasn't just playing for the hell of it. I loved the universe, I loved many of the characters, I loved the ability to choose your own reactions as Shepard's to nearly every situation. I loved the continuation from your ME1 save unti the end. Mass Effect was an experience, not just a game for me. Which I think is exactly as the game developers want Mass Effect to be. If anyone from Bioware just happens to read this - know that I applaud the hard work and the love you obviously have for the series. ME3 is awesome in many levels. From the early invasion of Earth to well-put together Tuchanka, you did everything extremely well. Clint Mansell's music is the final touch to make ME3 an amazing experience. I'm sad to say that because of the ending, ME3 doesn't have much replay value for me. The Indoctrination theory can and will answer so many questions and fill so many plot holes, that I sincerely hope Bioware is going with it. The Extended Cut - IF it goes with IT, doesn't even have to have gameplay in it, which I'm told it doesn't anyway. I can live with "Shepard fought the indoctrination, and now he and his team are off for a final battle" - ending.

That said, the current ending - if I take it literally - of ME3 feels wrong. I'm not a sucker for happyhappyjoyjoy-endings, so it's not that. I'm not even talking about the Catalyst yet, Many of the things leading to that event don't make sense. Why...why don't the reapers just destroy the crucible? Why (and how) is the Citadel warped to Sol system? To "protect" themselves, after the Illusive Man warned them? How can Illusive Man warn the reapers? Why on earth did the reapers construct that Citadel-Beam in London?

Then...then you get into the Citadel. For some reason, Harbinger just takes off. For some reason, Anderson got into the control room first, although there were no other paths. Everything just goes twilight zone after that. You believe everything the Catalyst-kid says, you can't question him, you can't tell him "NO". His logic is horrible. The whole incident just opens up so many questions (don't mind that, actually), but what's worse - so many plot holes as well. I like twilight zone stuff, don't get me wrong, but the very end just feels like a very unnecessary twist colliding with many basic "rules" of Mass Effect universe.

Then, I get to see how Joker (for some reason) races away and crashed to a planet. I get to see how Tali (my LI and also squadmate on earth) comes out of the ship. She isn't dead now? Harbinger supposedly blew everyone to hell before leaving for no reason. Then, Garrus (my squadmate on earth, too), comes out, unharmed. I really hope that wasn't something Bioware, or the people responsible for the ending thought as "let's give them something to be happy about, LI and favorite squadmate survives no matter what".

So...I really hope the writers ( I know they are talented) go with the Indoctrination theory. It doesn't matter if it was their plan all along or never - you can swallow some pride to make the end have more meaning.
If IT isn't happening, then...good luck explaining several questions. I hope you can figure it out. Bioware has talent, we know this, so it's not entirely impossible. Hope you let all of your writers to contribute (not like ME3 ending) and let your love for ME come first, not your pride.

I hope we wouldn't be treated as children who are too stupid to understand all the underlying themes the current endings have - we aren't. I'm sure the ending is something every ME writer has a different opinion on, themselves, so we (players, customers) can assume there are people pulling for the best possible content the ending DLC could have. If they let enough people work on it. We'll see when the summer comes. For me, Shadow Broker was the only "good enough" DLC, many others being mediocre. Hope you can top that one, even though they can't be compared as such when Extended Cut doesn't supposedly have playable content. The ending DLC will make a lot of difference to people like me, who are questioning Bioware's public attitude.

Thank you for reading. And Bioware, you know why we are frustrated and "loud". It's because we love this little thing called Mass Effect you have created. Take it as a compliment, even if some of us use harsh language. Tough love.

[Psythorn]

TauAngelicus wrote...

Psythorn wrote...
I just want to let you know that clarification is NOT what I want.
And I want to emphasis that your artistic integrity argument is none but a very cheap excuse - I do not buy!
Yes - pc games are ART but NO that does not make them untouchable or mean that they can't be badly done rubbish...

Bioware's argument of artistic integrity is not a cheap excuse.  They are staying true to their story, their vision.  You do not have to like it but it is what it is.  Personally I have more respect for them for not changing it.  From the announcement of the Extended Cut DLC it sounds like they had planned to release something like this all ready, probably as part of a DLC release that follows up on the 'Shepard breathes' scene.

I think there is no need to discuss this further because we've too different opinions on this.
To me it IS a cheap excuse. Considering what I see I feel like there is a huge majority not liking the ending for various reasons but to me it is this: The ending is sub bioware standard until that point, it breaks my immersion completely (something ME was very good at up to that point), it breaks with all rules of good story telling and I DO NOT LIKE IT !
Yes - this is art. But it is art that was made for one main reason: To appeal the masses and therfore to get bought. And it fails with the first part and just because ME1-2 where so good it did not fail in the second. And I for one will carefully reconsider ever pre-ordering a Bioware game again.
They start to fail. It started with their shameless reuse of floor plans in DA2 - but I still was cought by immersion because I liked the story. However this was a clear step down from DAO. And the ending of ME3 is one step further down.

Modifié par Psythorn, 10 avril 2012 - 12:00 .

[Changer the Elder]

Jassu1979 wrote...

(...)
Reapers cannot modify their prey's bodies without physical interaction (hence, the need to attack and harvest other species, the husk-spikes in ME1, the statis chambers in ME2 and so forth).
Indoctrination, as well, requires a reaper or an appropriate artifact in close proximity - and that is a mental process, not a physical one.

Going from there to an energy pulse that instantly transforms all organic life into a techno-organic hybrid is TOTALLY inconsistent with the rest of the series.

Reapers are also not able to send an energy beacon all over the galaxy, they are themselves only "short range conduits" to the signal/infection/whatever it is. And the only thing strong enough to distribute the signal all over the place in a short time destroys the relays in the process, rendering the next cycle unable to repeat, therefore it wouldn't be practical, if if it were possible.

The next may very well be my bad understanding of the principle, but both Saren and Illusive man seems to be more than a proof that indoctrination is merely a different, slower (and more cruel) type of "husk-ifikation", considering how they both grew to look in the end. Plus, to me it sounds more plausible that it was the same technollogy (nanites) rather than the Reapers having two separate ways for a similar process, especially if one of the ways sways in to the less technologically justified territorry the mind control per se is usually percieved as.

[TheBigLebowski]

JDMiller5150 wrote...

This story has yet to receive attention from news leaders. I just emailed at Huffington Post about the movement concerning issues with the ending.

But thats just one person.

If you folks could possibly email them aswell, it would help spur Bioware to address our problems. The email address is below.

scoop@huffingtonpost.com

Make your email as short or as long as you want. As long as you send it, it greatly increases the chance of receiving the noteriety that Mass Effect deserves,

Thank you, and spread the word.

It has been in Dutch newspapers. Ok small country with almost 18 million people. But still, it was on some covers a few weeks back.

[ZombieJeff 3000]

Best damn conclusion to the series and you give us three of them. Best game creators ever.

[Holger1405]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Changer the Elder wrote...

I don't find the concept of Synthesis being impossible in-universe since it's Reaper technology, the same one creating synthetic form organic as a bit of a trademark trait.

While Reaper-tech has been portrayed as being vastly superior to the usual in-game tech, its limitations have been established as well:
Reapers cannot modify their prey's bodies without physical interaction (hence, the need to attack and harvest other species, the husk-spikes in ME1, the statis chambers in ME2 and so forth).
Indoctrination, as well, requires a reaper or an appropriate artifact in close proximity - and that is a mental process, not a physical one.

Going from there to an energy pulse that instantly transforms all organic life into a techno-organic hybrid is TOTALLY inconsistent with the rest of the series.

Well assuming that "Godchild" is a imagination of the race that build the Reapers, the Citadel, the Mass Relays and so forth, imho it is not inconsistent. They already transformed Organic live to machine live.

[Theronyll Itholien]

Changer the Elder wrote...

Theronyll Itholien wrote...

I hate the fact I can only check the forum on my phone during work. This forum is smartphone unfriendly. I'd love to hear your reasoning, Changer. Because, quite frankly, I can't imagine anyone seeing the coherence in this ending. If you quoted my entire comment I could have referred back to it, but tell me how you would refute the logic I used while I was elaborating, also with the use of examples, the internal inconsistencies.

As I said to others, it's kind of hard to explain. I find it surprisingly equally hard to phrase why something shouldn't work as to figure out why some other things should, let alone in a language foreign to my own. I've been trying my best to convey why do I feel the way I feel in posts about a kilometer long in total.

I don't find the concept of Synthesis being impossible in-universe since it's Reaper technology, the same one creating synthetic form organic as a bit of a trademark trait. The technology being several magnitudes beyond human comprehension ("Your species has gained the attention of those infinitely greater." ... and about every other Harbinger/Sovereign quib), what's to say what's impossible for it. They manage to travel from Dark space to Sol system in a matter of months "on foot" without the help of the relays. They indoctrinate and slowly turn people into machines just by them being in their presence. Synthesis doesn't strike me as odd.

Neither does the Catalyst's existence, being hinted several times throughout the story (I still have to find the exact quotes for it when I get back from work). I'm not saying the ending wasn't subpar and lacking certain things in execution, but I do find the ideas presented by it not wrong in their core.

But being unable to see what exactly should it contradict in terms of lore and ME mythology, it's a bit hard for me to convey.

Thank you for your sincerity and understanding. And for the apology, too, even though I hardly find it necessary.

Edit: I apologize for not being more elaborate at the moment. Just as this forum wasn't made for portable devices, it wasn't made for our local wireless network. Loading alone takes forever... -.-

You can go from an almost primal, barbaric Husk making technology that involves the aggressive removal of bodyfluids to be replaced by synthetic material through piercing its victim with a giant syringe... to an electric-like something that completely changes ALL existent DNA it comes into contact with, and say the internal consistency of the ME universe is still intact? Be honest with me an especially yourself. If that beam turned all organics into machines you would've called it on its bullcrap. This.. hybrid nonsense.. is argueably even more inplausible. Let that sink in for a moment.

It's like Jassu mentioned, it makes no sense. Where does BioWare got your devout loyalty from? You are flexible to an illogical extend, which makes it very hard to reason with you (and I mean that less offensive than it sounds. I, too, am foreign).

But, ok, you think synthesis makes sense somehow. Then what about all the other inconsistencies? Since when is instant mind-control possible (TIM making you shoot Anderson)? It is NOT indoctrination, because that's not how indoc works. What is it, then? Magic? It can't be that. Or the starchild? It's no VI because it has no projector. The control option..? Shepard dies, but his consciense is somehow merged with the reapers? What!?

I can go on and on, but as the layout of my message is already displaying: The ending is such an incoherent mess that I don't even know where to start or end calling it on its illogical nonsense.

[3DandBeyond]

Most likely all I have to say has been said before, but I want to say something anyway.
First, thanks Bioware for a great game-the kind of game I have always wanted to play.  Thanks for some great characters.
I came to actually care about them.  Thanks for romance done in an intelligent way.  The humor.  The adventure.  The choices.  And yes, even thanks to EA for making it possible for PS3 players to enjoy these games (still would like ME1, but oh well).  Thanks for it all.

But, your very success in all of this is why fans are so disappointed.  You should take it as the highest form of flattery that people care about the game and what you have made this much.  You have only to look at Youtube to find out just what the game has meant to people.  I don't mean the recent ones about hating the ending or the various theories (though those are important as well), but the other ones-the ones about the Shepards players created.  The romance ones, the ones that show the humor, and the ones that show the little fun things that are in the game.  These show the real feelings people have attached to the game, the story, and its characters.

The ending or endings have been said to be artistic, but if so they are way too subtle and inconsistent to be comprehended.  Players are left with too many questions.  Why did that happen?  How did that happen?  What did it matter what I did throughout the game-often asked due to the limited choices and the way you choose at the end.  Given that Shepard made so many tough decisions along the way that meant masses of people would die to stop the Reapers, it's almost impossible to believe the decision would be anything but Destroy. 

One big question is what does this mean for those people I've cared about along the way?  And Shepard most of all.  I spent a long time playing with my Shepard.  In ME2, Ashley describes Shepard as a God (not true of course). Shepard does give up most everything to save countless others.  He has one slim chance to live at the end, but then we are not allowed to see what that means.  And I don't just mean a cutscene epilog, though even that would be preferable to this.

We do hope for more than just a real ending, but even that would be preferable as well.  I am not sure that artistic aptly describes what we are left with.  If so, it is the art of Picasso, not Norman Rockwell.
Some sat it was a dream, but one of the most remembered tv series endings reminds us of how to do it right.  Bob Newhart woke up.  Some say it as Indoctrination.  But if so that's not an ending.  And it sure is not satisfying. 
Or, it could even be a Cerberus test to see what Shepard might do-many of us have noticed, though it is probably a bug, the Illusive man looking down from the ceiling in the Collector ship.  And, oddly the game has had a funny focus on fish-shooting them in a barrel, having them as pets, and Krogans wanting to eat them, as well as the fact if you look out the Citadel's windows, ships going by look a lot like fish in an aquarium.  Funny.

What we are left with for a good ending are destroyed mass relays (300k Batarians want to know how this can be good), the impossible to understand cutscene with certain people coming out of the ship on a planet-Joker turned and ran and then had time to pick up people on the way, a Shepard charcoal briquette in destroyed London, and a kid being told by his (or her) grandpa that Shepard has one more story.  Well, hopefully that's true.

This game isn't a work of art hanging on a wall.  It's never been static, needing the player to guess what things mean, or leaving them to just figure it all out.  Players made the decisions and felt like they were creating the ending along the way.  You should pick and choose where to leave mystery for the best effect-sorry, but real artists do know this.  Sappy as it is, I want one possibility to be a full on happy ending.  Maybe not for every character, but at least for Shepard personally.  The opportunity should exist for Shepard to reunite with a love interest (especially if it's for little blue children).  It would have to mean that there would be some way left for such a reunion to happen.  I don't care to watch too many movies repeatedly where my heart gets ripped out at the end-can't you see why people playing a game would feel even stronger about this?  Shepard deserves more and so do we, so does Bioware.  You want people to play this game again.  You want them to say to their friends "buy this game.  Best. Ending. Ever."  Best tv series ending-Six Feet Under.  That's bittersweet.  It has replay value.  It makes sense.  Worst tv series ending in my opinion-Seinfeld.  But at least it made some sense for them since the whole series was about nothing, pointless.

Please give us the best ending ever.  Better yet, don't end it at all.

[Oransel]

The ending of Mass Effect for me www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Oransel, 10 avril 2012 - 01:13 .

[Holger1405]

jeweledleah wrote...


it IS the Good Hero victory.

Well not in the moment, (because you have to kill the Geth) and I doubt that Bioware is going to change that. As I said before imho that is a good thing, a "you save all and everything ending" wouldn't fit the ME Story.

jeweledleah wrote...
and its bittersweet still, due to all the death that happened before (that SHOULD have been aknowledged better, then what we got), all the destruction. but what we got is nowhere near that.

I thought Bioware made a remarkable Job, across the whole Game, to acknowledging that. 

jeweledleah wrote...
we get ambiguity, scientific impossibilities, inability to role play out Shepards when conversing with godchild, inability to bring up decisions you have made that contradict child's "logic", and the only "ending" where Shepard survives, requires multiplayer and genocide (that also doesn't make sence when you start thinking about". and for some reason Shepard loses all sence and walks towards exploding pipe, while shooting a long range weapon >_>

P.S.  Mass Effect trlogy in pictures, with what out current ending turns it into http://media.moddb.c...ysttrolling.png

About everything in Mass Effect IS a scientific impossibility, adding one other too it didn't make all the Games illogical. I answered the Genocide part above and the Walk towards I consider artistic expression.  

Still, I understand why you don't like the endings. I hope the DLC brings something you are looking for.

[Changer the Elder]

Theronyll Itholien wrote...
You can go from an almost primal, barbaric Husk making technology that involves the aggressive removal of bodyfluids to be replaced by synthetic material through piercing its victim with a giant syringe... to an electric-like something that completely changes ALL existent DNA it comes into contact with, and say the internal consistency of the ME universe is still intact?

Husks need to be efficiently fast to be mass produced in a short time. Therefore, it makes sense creating them is a tad (ahem...) more invasive.
By comparison - Saren Arterius and Jack Harper... and even the turian creepy cult, didn't have a Dragon's tooth stuck in them to become partially machine. They got hit from close by by a... well, energy beam from a Reaper artifact. It was enough to make them both ending up being eaten alive by the technoorganic virus. Just from a single exposure to an energy beam.

Be honest with me an especially yourself. If that beam turned all
organics into machines you would've called it on its bullcrap. This..
hybrid nonsense.. is argueably even more inplausible. Let that sink in
for a moment.
It's like Jassu mentioned, it makes no sense. Where does BioWare got your devout loyalty from? You are flexible to an illogical extend, which makes it very hard to reason with you (and I mean that less offensive than it sounds. I, too, am foreign).

When I don't like something, I don't. Simple as that. When my most beloved series/writer I grew up reading skipped in quality, or even degraded, I knew what I liked and what I didn't. Bioware doesn't have my undying loyalty by any strech. I'm not defending them when saying the endings do make sense to me, I'm defending my view of the world to which I don't have any reason not to believe.
Trust me when I say I am honest. Even if I felt the need to put on some illogical false mask to protect Bioware from rabid fans (why would I do that? I don't do things I don't believe in), I could never lie to myself. I was... brave or foolish enough to come here and voice an opinion I knew in advance would be dismissed. I'm eager to discuss your opinions on that matter, even though they largely differ. Does that honestly make me come out as being the type that didn't think the matter through enough and didn't let it sink in?
And yes, well, I am flexible. I know that and even take some pride in it. I prefer to keep my mind open up to new possibilities and new points of view. To me, it makes sense than deliberately shutting myself from them.

But, ok, you think synthesis makes sense somehow. Then what about all the other inconsistencies? Since when is instant mind-control possible (TIM making you shoot Anderson)? It is NOT indoctrination, because that's not how indoc works. What is it, then? Magic? It can't be that. Or the starchild? It's no VI because it has no projector. The control option..? Shepard dies, but his consciense is somehow merged with the reapers? What!?

Illusive Man was researching how to do that for most of the third game and it wasn't mind-control. The minds of the subjects were intact and able to think for themselves. Controlling a body is technically possible. It's what human nervous system does since the dawn of... well, a long time. Being able to duplicate its effect for a short-range use is not impossible and even today, there are some military experiments in that field. Which makes it a bit of a fridge horror.

In Control option, from what I understand, Shepard becomes a reaper-like entity. Reapers are said since ME2 to be housing the essence of an entire species "uploaded" into them. Which does mean that if Shepard is a Reaper, it's one very sad and empty Reaper with a bad case of echo from too much space around, but still, it does make sense to me working that way. The Catalyst said only his body would perish, not his mind. That's presumably still intact. Even though it might arguably go batty from that kind of an update.

[Lyrebon]

WhereTheSlimeLive wrote...

The ending was a bit strange for me. It almost seemed a little rushed. I could be way off. If countless hours were spent developing the endings then I apologize. I meant no offense. I've been a Bioware fan since Baldur's Gate. I have fallen in love with many of their games and had experiences I will never forget. For me, the ending was never a huge concern. It has always been about the journey not the destination. All the plot twists, the victories, the losses. Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Dragon Age... it was always about the journey.
I've never seen so many people come together over something so petty. Something so trivial. My wife sponsors children with cancer. She deals with lupus and all the pain that comes with it. We worry about our own little girl and whether or not we will be able to send her to the best school possible. There are people that wake up in some parts of the world and don't know if they will be able to find enough food to eat or survive another day. Apparently there a people that don't have these kinds of problems. I guess when nothing really bad has happened in your life a video game ending is a real big deal. Are people really THAT upset? Are we that whiny and entitled? I think it's more about people doing what people do... follow. A group of crying babies start a domino affect and every message board nerd jumps on the wagon. Is Bioware listening? I wouldn't. Don't like what I made? Don't buy it. Ask yourself this - how's your game doing? You know, the one that you made? Right.

In the context of literary creativity the ending to Mass Effect 3 takes a running leap off a cliff.  While I appreciate what your wife does and the concerns you have, we as a human race are intelligent enough to express artistically. We create touching stories because we have that capability that no other life on this planet does. You can say that thousands / millions of children are starving in third-world countries, but isn't it also a squander of our intellectual capacity by not utilising its potential to create something?

Stories tell us more about ourselves than we realise. Mass Effect has dealt with themes of fatalism and self-determination throughout the series and is ever important to the identity of human as Albert Camus' publications. This won't stop the problems in the world, but Mass Effect 3's ending is contradictory to everything that has come before it - the struggle of mankind against impossible odds, the will to never give in and accept the "inevitable." It is this what is inherently illogical and our brains can't process irrationalism without trying to rationalise it.

Essentially, Shepard just accepts everything the Starchild says, shrugs and goes off to kill herself. Without asking why. Anyone in that same position would want to know the consequences of their actions. Without that knowledge we can't rightly make a decision because we have no way of telling how it will effect the future of galactic civilisations. They depend on Shepard and she's just going to through herself blindly at a decision hoping it will solve everything? It goes against everything Shepard's character has been built up to be. Shepard isn't even Shepard anymore at this point.

From a literary point-of-view this is a big problem. From a philosophical POV the integrity of man is lost in the final moments. Some might be "whining" about the ending, but there is a lot of constructive criticism from people that can actually identify the problems. Bioware is a large company, it doesn't mean they're free of mistakes and bad writing.

But I still love the damn games.

[AmstradHero]

Holger1405 wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...
we get ambiguity, scientific impossibilities, inability to role play out Shepards when conversing with godchild, inability to bring up decisions you have made that contradict child's "logic", and the only "ending" where Shepard survives, requires multiplayer and genocide (that also doesn't make sence when you start thinking about". and for some reason Shepard loses all sence and walks towards exploding pipe, while shooting a long range weapon >_>

the Walk towards I consider artistic expression.  

It's artistic to knowingly and willingly commit suicide by walking towards an explosion? Please. Just because the protagonist dies doesn't make the ending artistic. Not unless you're taking the most shallow and cursory definition of artistic, which coincidentally is exactly what BioWare seem to have done with the ending by shoehorning the classic anc cliched "the galaxy is too big" and "AIs will always kill people" themes that have been explored time and time again in other science fiction, but were notably absent from the rest of Mass Effect. Copying common themes from other works in the genre does not make the ending artistic. It makes it derivative and stupid.

As has been said, the "technology" by which this all occurs is inconsistent with previously established lore. The ridiculous part (as I described earlier) is that the three options provided by the Space Child as "solutions" are all logically inconsistent with his description of the problem and the fact that Shepard has somehow proven that the solution doesn't work because the Space Child decided to give him a magical ride up on the Neo Space Elevator.
(a) Return to the state of the original problem, which is flawed
( Continue with the status quo, which is flawed
© Proceed to a new unknown state, which despite being completely incalculable, is somehow declared to be the new optimal solution. If the outcome is incalculable, then it is clearly not a new optimal solution.

The Space Child is either the creator of the Reapers (and hence must be superior to them in terms of intellect), or their entire collective consciousness, in which case it is just as intelligent as them if not more so. How something with that amount of intellect cannot realise the logical inconsistency of the "solutions" it offers Shepard is simply mind-boggling. Scratch that, it's just plain idiotic.

This is just one of countless examples of why the ending doesn't make sense. If you want to get into thematic and premise considerations, the ending begins to drop the ball even more, and becomes utterly disconnected with the entirety of the rest of the series, including the vast majority of Mass Effect 3.

We know this ending was a retcon from the originally planned ending. So retcon the retcon and get rid of the utter rubbish ending that is everything from Shepard getting hit with Harbinger's laser onwards.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 10 avril 2012 - 01:36 .

[Changer the Elder]

Actually, people quoting "Shepard walking towards the pipe despite having a ranged weapon" as one of the reasons why endings suck makes me think that they really have to nitpick everything just to justify their cause. Even if it were nonsense (which it isn't), one moment worth of cinematic detail most people wouldn't even notice being quoted as a reason to hate the game, Bioware and their little dog too is... well, in my opinion, far from rational.

Accidentaly, in this case it's a bit of hoist-by-their-own-petard justification, since not only that it's an artistic hyperbole, there's a psychological reason for it, too, that has been documented on war, crises and crimes alike = when you have nowhere to run, your brain is so focused on at least finishing what you came to do (because it uses that determination as a bit of an escapist fantasy, to an extent) that the physical instinct to get up close and personal to "charge into a fight" is not unlikely to take over. Yes, reality is unrealistic, but in this case, art immitates life, using that exact model (which is not happening 100% every time, of course, it depends on the mentality of said person) as an artistic hyperbole for determination.

Modifié par Changer the Elder, 10 avril 2012 - 01:36 .

[LiarasShield]

Don'tcha just wish that it was summer now so we can find out also does anyone know when the resurgence pack for the ps3 comes out today?