23455 réponses à ce sujet

[Caprea]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Honestly, this is one of those cases where I don't think the fans know what's best for them.

For me, explaining the Reapers is a bit like explaining the Force (by means of midichlorians), or - to stay closer to home - explaining H.P. Lovecraft's "Old Ones": their whole appeal and menace stems from the fact that they're inscrutable and alien. Giving them a mission statement like "save organics by harvesting them" turns them from unknowable horrors into run-of-the-mill villains. Heck, even if their motivation had made more sense, it would still have contradicted the whole "we are far beyond your comprehension"-shpiel that has been going on since ME1.

I think something similar applies to Tali's face: people do not realize just how much of Tali's appeal is built around the fact that we do NOT know what she looks like. It not only gives her a certain mystique, but it also allows each of us to "fill in the blank" with our imagination. And honestly? No matter how much effort the art department might put into designing her appearance, it would still be a disappointment for most, because it would not be *their* Tali.

I second that, but must add that no matter how you twist and turn the issue, people are going to complain, anyway.

And sdinc009: I agree with you as well as Jassu1979, can't speak for the rest of the fanbase, though. As I said, it boils down to individual opinion in the end and hence, there will always be people who complain about the way the issue with the Reapers is wrapped up.

Modifié par dea_ex_machina, 11 avril 2012 - 06:05 .

[Jassu1979]

Provided that the "Extended Cut" expects us to take the existing ending at face value, it ends up being "neither meat nor fish", as we Germans say:

1. It will fail to satisfy most of those who have been severely disappointed with the ending, because it does not resolves the problems associated with it, such as the star child's convoluted logic or the lack of genuine choice in walking towards door a, b, or c.

2. It will do nothing for those few who've already swallowed the existing ending and were satisfied by it, because they did not detect anything wrong with it to begin with. At best, they'll be pleased to see additional cut scenes, but realize that these are not the people who have been protesting and campaigning to begin with.

Now, as I said earlier, I still hold on to the slim chance that some great revelation resembling some iteration of the Indoctrination Theory has indeed been planned all along, because I still cannot believe that you'd fail so miserably in the last five minutes. But if that was the case, why succumb to this PR-nightmare and make fans conclude that you are *not* listening, in spite of continued protestations to the contrary?

Judging by the way you've announced the "Extended Cut", it's almost impossible for us to believe that you've even looked at the concerns that have been raised.

[3Minotaur3]

"Yes, we are listening", but are we caring?...
We stick with the same bad endings, covering ourselves with the crappy Artistic Integrity BS, only offering you a way we hope (the DLC) at least let you understand what we where trying to do as endings in the first place...

DLC that probably contains stuff that didn't makes it in time for whatever reasons (time, budget, etc...)...

Thanks EA/Bioware...

Modifié par 3Minotaur3, 11 avril 2012 - 06:06 .

[Lioneli]

I always thought that main idea of Mass Effect is that wven one man can change the the faith. And now it's more like "Life sucks and then you die". Nice going Bioware!!!

[Jassu1979]

dea_ex_machina wrote...


I second that, but must add that no matter how you twist and turn the issue, people are going to complain, anyway.

Agreed! Even if Bioware had done *everything* right, some people would still be complaining. You can sometimes detect that on these very forums: "I can't believe you let Thane die! I demand that you miraculously cure him at the last minute!" "How could you possibly kill Mordin? He should totally walk out of that burning tower alive!"

[darkway1]

Blazerer wrote...

Changer the Elder wrote...

darkway1 wrote...

You express exactly how I feel......I don't think Bioware had any real idea how connected people are with this franchise.

Oh, I don't believe they wouldn't realize that. They're in love with those games even more than we are. They're the ones who built it and invested their heart into both the world and the characters. You cannot create something with this level of detail and with scenes that make you so deeply involved with the characters and their world without being equally passionate about it yourself.

In extension, that's why they defend their story and don't want to change it. They believe in it. If they didn't care, they'd just change it. They know (and even have admitted) the execution isn't perfect and now are trying to set it "right". Giving them a fighting chance sounds fair enough. They gave us unforgettable scenes like The End Run, Fall of Thessia, A Future for the Krogan or The Fleets Arrive. That in exchange for a little faith sounds like a decent deal.

and that is where you are wrong, the entire team probably thinks it's ****. 50% because it is and 50% because the team didn't have anything to do with it. It was just Casey Hudson and the Lead designer going at it without peer review

Its this very issue I would like Bioware to address.....to explain.....is this really what happened,is this why the ending to MASS 3 is......the way it is.?

[Changer the Elder]

Blazerer wrote...

Changer the Elder wrote...

Oh, I don't believe they wouldn't realize that. They're in love with those games even more than we are. They're the ones who built it and invested their heart into both the world and the characters. You cannot create something with this level of detail and with scenes that make you so deeply involved with the characters and their world without being equally passionate about it yourself.

In extension, that's why they defend their story and don't want to change it. They believe in it. If they didn't care, they'd just change it. They know (and even have admitted) the execution isn't perfect and now are trying to set it "right". Giving them a fighting chance sounds fair enough. They gave us unforgettable scenes like The End Run, Fall of Thessia, A Future for the Krogan or The Fleets Arrive. That in exchange for a little faith sounds like a decent deal.

and that is where you are wrong, the entire team probably thinks it's ****. 50% because it is and 50% because the team didn't have anything to do with it. It was just Casey Hudson and the Lead designer going at it without peer review

I'm sorry, but do you have any empirical evidence I'm wrong? Any other than... how was it called when I tried to find a hypothetical explanation for some of the endings' unclear matters... a handwave? Has any of Bioware employees openly, honestly told you "Yeah, we hate it, but we're gonna defend it anyway, just to spite you"? I'm not sure about Casey Hudson's involvement in the series, because I haven't been purposefully tracking down the movement of Bioware employees throughout the franchise, but I remember seeing Mac Walters' writing. And to me, he did seem to care about the franchise.

Then again, yes, indeed, maybe I'm naive. Maybe I'm fool with wool over my eyes that's not seeing the "truth" you obviously know. But until I do have empirical evidence, I do claim that keeping the attitude of "presumed innocent until proven otherwise" is a tad more constructive than wanting to crucify someone just for the heck of it.

[Helcor]

9Enrico0 wrote...

could someone explain what this article says?
http://kotaku.com/59...sely-advertised
I'm confused

I think you would be more rewarded by reading the original article. Basically they just point out that there is a mismatch between Biowares advertised “...radically different ending scenarios.” and the actual ending that the customers got.

And Bioware, if you are still listening, it is somewhat annoying that your web-page still advertise radically different endings, when we all know there is only one.

I must say that if I actually managed to get your attention, and after all the banter and abuse I can understand if you do not want to listen any more, I have one small hope for the DLC ending fix: I can live with the ending (I don't like it, and would rather have the radical different endings you still advertise, but I'll survive), as long as the mass relays don't explode.

We know from the Arrival DLC that a mass relay exploding would completely wipe out the nearby solar system, blowing up all of them would wipe out virtually all intelligent life in the galaxy as well as effectively remove galactic travel. I don't desperately need a happy ending, just an opening for the possibility of continuing the Mass Effect universe in one medium or another.

Modifié par Helcor, 11 avril 2012 - 06:28 .

[EugeneBi]

dea_ex_machina wrote...

Jassu1979 wrote...

Honestly, this is one of those cases where I don't think the fans know what's best for them.

For me, explaining the Reapers is a bit like explaining the Force (by means of midichlorians), or - to stay closer to home - explaining H.P. Lovecraft's "Old Ones": their whole appeal and menace stems from the fact that they're inscrutable and alien. Giving them a mission statement like "save organics by harvesting them" turns them from unknowable horrors into run-of-the-mill villains. Heck, even if their motivation had made more sense, it would still have contradicted the whole "we are far beyond your comprehension"-shpiel that has been going on since ME1.

I think something similar applies to Tali's face: people do not realize just how much of Tali's appeal is built around the fact that we do NOT know what she looks like. It not only gives her a certain mystique, but it also allows each of us to "fill in the blank" with our imagination. And honestly? No matter how much effort the art department might put into designing her appearance, it would still be a disappointment for most, because it would not be *their* Tali.

I second that, but must add that no matter how you twist and turn the issue, people are going to complain, anyway.

And sdinc009: I agree with you as well as Jassu1979, can't speak for the rest of the fanbase, though. As I said, it boils down to individual opinion in the end and hence, there will always be people who complain about the way the issue with the Reapers is wrapped up.

Exactly. That's why abandoned "Dark Energy" idea was also bad - it tried to explain the reapers.

Hey, nobody explained Chingiskhan, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, Alexander - people just fought them to death.

Modifié par EugeneBi, 11 avril 2012 - 06:37 .

[Hyperion II]

listening =/= hearing, Bioware.

You exist because we allow it, and you will end because the fanbase demands it.

[EugeneBi]

Lioneli wrote...

I always thought that main idea of Mass Effect is that wven one man can change the the faith. And now it's more like "Life sucks and then you die". Nice going Bioware!!!

I believe you meant "fate", not "faith".

[Benchpress610]

Jassu1979 wrote...
*snip*......
I think something similar applies to Tali's face: people do not realize just how much of Tali's appeal is built around the fact that we do NOT know what she looks like. It not only gives her a certain mystique, but it also allows each of us to "fill in the blank" with our imagination. And honestly? No matter how much effort the art department might put into designing her appearance, it would still be a disappointment for most, because it would not be *their* Tali.

Actually, I found Tali’s face from the photograph very beautiful. I was not disappointed. However, it turned out to be just a tease. I was disappointed that I wasn’t able to see that face in game, especially during the romantic scenes.

[Spirit Keeper]

These extended endings providing 'closure'. We are not children, we don't need closure with the endings you have. What your fans need, the people that buy you products need is new, better and more though out endings.

This is not a compromise Bioware, this is a total cop-out by you.

[Changer the Elder]

Hyperion II wrote...

You exist because we allow it, and you will end because the fanbase demands it.

... seriously?

That's not even funny anymore. Condemning a company that gave you, sans the five disputable minutes of the ending, three great games, just because of... what exactly?

I mean, seriously?

If religions worked that way, great heroes, samaritans and saints would end up rotting in Hell along rapists and murderers just for lying to their mother about a broken window when they were ten years old. My, Paradise would have lots of empty space...

[Lioneli]

Lioneli wrote...

I always thought that main idea of Mass Effect is that wven one man can change the the faith. And now it's more like "Life sucks and then you die". Nice going Bioware!!!


I believe you meant "fate", not "faith".
The Cake is a Lie!


Yes, sorry, my English is terrible;)

[Jassu1979]

"Hi. I am a superior artificial intelligence who created the menacing space horrors who can mess with people's minds just by being near them. Note how I look exactly like that little boy you saw dying in the initial attack on Earth, which I cannot possibly know unless I've gotten into your head.
Here, let me offer you almost unlimited power, no strings attached. Because I could never, ever control you, and I'm perfectly fine with you messing up a plan that I've stuck to for uncounted millennia. Here, I hand it to you on a silver platter. All you have to do is give up your life, and I'll make the pain of the whole galaxy go away. Oh, and don't pick the destroy option. It'll totally not solve the problem, and definitely kill your allies as well as yourself. What? You wake up in the rubble? Nonsense! Choose space-magic synthesis! It's clearly the best solution, and you've worked so hard to achieve it!"

[EugeneBi]

Changer the Elder wrote...

Hyperion II wrote...

You exist because we allow it, and you will end because the fanbase demands it.

... seriously?

That's not even funny anymore. Condemning a company that gave you, sans the five disputable minutes of the ending, three great games, just because of... what exactly?

I mean, seriously?

If religions worked that way, great heroes, samaritans and saints would end up rotting in Hell along rapists and murderers just for lying to their mother about a broken window when they were ten years old. My, Paradise would have lots of empty space...

No five crappy minutes do not justify company termination. But the whole course of actions - lackluster Awakening, DA2 disaster, very visible trend to steer from RPG to streamlined action and MP - that's all together does. These five minutes are just the last straw that breaks the camel back.

Hopefully BioWare will find new fans and won't die, but for me it does not make any difference, I am done with them.

[Changer the Elder]

I cannot really judge Awakening and even though DA2 wasn't up to Origins' standards, it was nowhere near as terrible game as some present it. It was fairly good, just not as good as its predecessor. The Old Republic was recently a major success. And all three Mass Effects were top notch piece of gaming.
Not to mention, if I'm not mistaken, each gaming franchise is developed by a different team/branch of Bioware itself.

EugeneBi wrote...
Hopefully BioWare will find new fans and won't die, but for me it does not make any difference, I am done with them.

And well, not to sound unnecessarily snarky, but if it doesn't make any difference, why do you bother prowling these forums and complaining when nothing they do can convince you to give them a chance? By no means I'm saying you shouldn't do it or, gods forbid, even try to tell you to get off. I'm merely asking what is it that you expect as a curious inquiry.

Modifié par Changer the Elder, 11 avril 2012 - 07:15 .

[Blazerer]

Changer the Elder wrote...

I'm sorry, but do you have any empirical evidence I'm wrong? Any other than... how was it called when I tried to find a hypothetical explanation for some of the endings' unclear matters... a handwave? Has any of Bioware employees openly, honestly told you "Yeah, we hate it, but we're gonna defend it anyway, just to spite you"? I'm not sure about Casey Hudson's involvement in the series, because I haven't been purposefully tracking down the movement of Bioware employees throughout the franchise, but I remember seeing Mac Walters' writing. And to me, he did seem to care about the franchise.

Then again, yes, indeed, maybe I'm naive. Maybe I'm fool with wool over my eyes that's not seeing the "truth" you obviously know. But until I do have empirical evidence, I do claim that keeping the attitude of "presumed innocent until proven otherwise" is a tad more constructive than wanting to crucify someone just for the heck of it.

I should have added this to the previous post: http://www.gamesthir...e-stays-silent/

and agreed I can't be for sure that most of the ME emplyees hate the ending, however they simply can't speak up without risking to lose their job. not to mention any disclosure agreements that are probably enclosed with the contracts

[Jassu1979]

Changer the Elder wrote...

If religions worked that way, great heroes, samaritans and saints would end up rotting in Hell along rapists and murderers just for lying to their mother about a broken window when they were ten years old. My, Paradise would have lots of empty space...

Actually, what you are describing here is pretty much standard Protestant theology: everyone is unworthy, and only faith saves.
Horrid, horrid religion.
[/derail]

[Blazerer]

Changer the Elder wrote...

I cannot really judge Awakening and even though DA2 wasn't up to Origins' standards, it was nowhere near as terrible game as some present it. It was fairly good, just not as good as its predecessor. The Old Republic was recently a major success. And all three Mass Effects were top notch piece of gaming.
Not to mention, if I'm not mistaken, each gaming franchise is developed by a different team/branch of Bioware itself.

personally I'm greatly against Dragon Age 2. cheap copy and pasting of entire maps, greatly reduced game world, with only a handful of different locations etc. etc.

[noivoieidoi]

No_MSG wrote...

I'd like to reiterate that when I say "I don't get it" I don't mean I don't understand it. I understand what happened,

I want to walk away the minute the Deus Ex Machina says it created the Reapers. I don't need to hear anything after that. .

"I control the Reapers. They are my solution" - Commander Catalyst of the invasion force

Obviously, you don't get it and don't understand it 

What I don't get is the thought process behind those endings, and why they are so special to fight for. And I don't want that explained, either.

Oh, that explains a lot.... Don't worry, the same goes for most of the true and loyal fans.

[EugeneBi]

Changer the Elder wrote...

I cannot really judge Awakening and even though DA2 wasn't up to Origins' standards, it was nowhere near as terrible game as some present it. It was fairly good, just not as good as its predecessor. The Old Republic was recently a major success. And all three Mass Effects were top notch piece of gaming.
Not to mention, if I'm not mistaken, each gaming franchise is developed by a different team/branch of Bioware itself.

The anti-RPG trend spans all franchises (not sure about TOR, never played it).

DA2 was a good game if compared to Risen and crap like that. (Risen is a sad story - to fall that low after Gothic 1 and Gothic 2 masterpieces...) But a) DA2 was crappy compared to other BW products, and  advertizement was outrageous lie. I would forgive them crappy game if they did not set expectations so high after DAO.

[Blazerer]

Changer the Elder wrote...

... seriously?

That's not even funny anymore. Condemning a company that gave you, sans the five disputable minutes of the ending, three great games, just because of... what exactly?

I mean, seriously?

If religions worked that way, great heroes, samaritans and saints would end up rotting in Hell along rapists and murderers just for lying to their mother about a broken window when they were ten years old. My, Paradise would have lots of empty space...

bringing religion into this is useless. The bible details tale after tale of incest, rape that's totally fine, murder for a just cause (he didn't believe) and so on, and so forth.

Please do not bring religion into a discussion because it is nothing but faith and passed down stories. If you believe that is perfectly fine with me, however I feel religion has no place in a game discussion topic, same with politics and such.

[Changer the Elder]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Actually, what you are describing here is pretty much standard Protestant theology: everyone is unworthy, and only faith saves.
Horrid, horrid religion.
[/derail]

I don't want to start a religious discussion here, but that's still a bit different scenario. This logic claims that no matter what you do, you cannot repent yourself and derserve the worst for slipping once. Not even faith saves, as some fans make blatantly obvious.

Even though more than religion, behavior of those shouting about how they (and their friends and their little dog) will cause Bioware's destruction/random BW employee's death are reminding me of a certain little guy named Niftu Cal...