23455 réponses à ce sujet

[IcyNeko]

Ugh. While it's true that typically you do get annoyed fanbase, it's usually 20% or so that get annoyed enough to put petitions together or voice their discontent. With ME3, it's significantly higher. 70% or more would be a fair estimate. So... sure, call it whining all you want, but honestly.. if you're abiding by "We are Listening" and your audience is booing your storytelling..... perhaps you ought to listen more and bury the ego.

[Bufardo74]

My question now is, why is this thread even up at this point?

BioWare seems to have already addressed this issue with their more recent statements.

I believe there's more than enough information posted to get a general consensus.

This thread appears to be largely irrelevant now.

[EugeneBi]

pipemaster9000 wrote...

EugeneBi wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

Jassu1979 wrote...

Best example: the mass relay explosions. There's nothing in the game to suggest that these are any different from the cataclysmic destruction we saw in "the Arrival". No hint, no suggestion, nothing. For all that we know, these *are* supernova-level explosions, ripping apart every single civilization in the galaxy.
To say that these are somehow different is mere speculation that cannot be substantiated by anything we saw or read in the game, and is only carried by people's desire for less dire consequences.

Now, contrast this with the clues and arguments that have gone into supporting the Indoctrination theory, and you see the difference between blind assertions/rationalization and a concise argument based on the interpretation of textual clues. That's not to say that the IT is any more correct than the assertion that the relays did not destroy the galaxy - but at the very least, it is founded on something that can be found in the text/game.

This.

In science, a theory is considered to be truth if it has more explanatory power than all other theories.  Indoctrination explains EVERYTHING;

The current ending - where the Citadel is alive and controls the reapers - CONTRADICTS THE ENTIRETY OF MASS EFFECT 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the Citadel is alive, it can control itself.  It doesn't need a Reaper to fly in and flip a switch, as it is ABSOLUTELY CLEARLY STATED in the first game that the Keepers respond ONLY to the commands of the Citadel itself.  And we've seen keepers flip switches.

The Reapers would have invaded on schedule in Mass Effect 1 if the Citadel controlled the reapers.

This ending DESTROYED the artistic integrity of the entire series.  Someone should be fired.

Indoctrination Theory ad absurdum: 10 years old Shepard wakes up in his/her bed in the morning and mom tells him/her: "Wake up, it's time to go to school!". Everything were a dream - including ME1, etc. All the plotholes explained, hurrah!

False ^ Indoctrination is explained via Codex IN-GAME. This "absurdum" would be saying he had reaper contact at 10. At that age he would be useless to the reapers and his brain/body would not be able to handle the affects of Indoctrination. Why doesn't anyone listen to the codex's???

Codex is just a part of the dream too. It's easy - everything in 3 games is a dream

[AwefulShot]

hoodaticus wrote...

AwefulShot wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...


In science, a theory is considered to be truth if it has more explanatory power than all other theories. 

Er, no.  The truth never enters into it, that is the realm of philospy not science.

Refuting that preposterous statement of yours is just too easy.  Science exists for the entire purpose of making and proving truth claims about explanations for phenomena.

What is truth?  There is a Nobel prize in it for you if you can answer that simple question.  Theories are developed to explain observation, that is it.  They exist only until a better theory arises - as you stated.  This has nothing to do with truth, truth is a subjective term.  Your truth and my truth can differ, but for both of us gravity is a constant for example.  Gravity is a fact, not a truth or a theory, we do have theories of course predicting/explaining it - to a certain degree (quantum gravity anyone)?  Apologies for being picky with terms but I have had a long career in science and injection of the word 'truth' in a sentence with science bugs me.  Gives a false impression of the purpose and scope of science (in the real world that is).

We can however have a fact in the ME3 case - the fact is we have the endings we have, well to date.  What we are attempting now is to mold a theory around the observed endings.  Art being as subjective as truth means art can have a truth as defined by the artist.  Looks like however much we (and I mean me also) don't like it Bioware to date have shown us their 'truth in art'.  But if I may quote Sir Arthur Conan Doyle as my take on the indoc. hypothesis.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data.  Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit
theories, instead of theories to suit facts.” 

                                          

Modifié par AwefulShot, 13 avril 2012 - 05:34 .

[EugeneBi]

Bufardo74 wrote...

My question now is, why is this thread even up at this point?

BioWare seems to have already addressed this issue with their more recent statements.

I believe there's more than enough information posted to get a general consensus.

This thread appears to be largely irrelevant now.

We are shooting the breeze while waiting till summer. Why does this offend you?

[EugeneBi]

AwefulShot wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

AwefulShot wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...


In science, a theory is considered to be truth if it has more explanatory power than all other theories. 

Er, no.  The truth never enters into it, that is the realm of philospy not science.

Refuting that preposterous statement of yours is just too easy.  Science exists for the entire purpose of making and proving truth claims about explanations for phenomena.

What is truth?  There is a Nobel prize in it for you if you can answer that simple question.  Theories are developed to explain observation, that is it.  They exist only until a better theory arises - as you stated.  This has nothing to do with truth, truth is a subjective term.  Your truth and my truth can differ, but for both of us gravity is a constant for example.  Gravity is a fact, not a truth or a theory, we do have theories of course predicting/explaining it - to a certain degree (quantum gravity anyone)?  Apologies for being picky with terms but I have had a long career in science and injection of the word 'truth' in a sentence with science bugs me.  Gives a false impression of the purpose and scope of science (in the real world that is).

We can however have a fact in the ME3 case - the fact is we have the endings we have, well to date.  What we are attempting now is to mold a theory around the observed endings.  Art being as subjective as truth means art can have a truth as defined by the artist.  Looks like however much we (and I mean me also) don't like it Bioware to date have shown us there 'truth in art'.  But if I may quote Sir Arthur Conan Doyle as my take on the indoc. hypothesis.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data.  Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit
theories, instead of theories to suit facts.” 

                                          

I agree - there is no "truth" in science. A good theory explains existing facts and predicts results of future experiments. No theory is 100% accurate, at some point it requires expansion in a better theory.

[LittleBlueChildrenNow]

Azrever XVII wrote...

Its not a broken ending! lol its a to be continued without actually saying it. Its sly and clever. I think its just way ahead of its time. Think about it. Play the games 1 thru 3. Choices do matter in the game but not the end, because it is still not the end. "Tell me one more story about the Shepard."

I thought about that, and if you were right I can live with the ending, but BW confirm that this was Shepard last chapter. So that's the ending. The true and final ending

[StElmo]

LittleBlueChildrenNow wrote...

Azrever XVII wrote...

Its not a broken ending! lol its a to be continued without actually saying it. Its sly and clever. I think its just way ahead of its time. Think about it. Play the games 1 thru 3. Choices do matter in the game but not the end, because it is still not the end. "Tell me one more story about the Shepard."

I thought about that, and if you were right I can live with the ending, but BW confirm that this was Shepard last chapter. So that's the ending. The true and final ending

How can you live with the ending if starchild exists? It makes no logical sense. That's the problem, not wether shepard lives or dies.

[Theronyll Itholien]

LittleBlueChildrenNow wrote...

Azrever XVII wrote...

Its not a broken ending! lol its a to be continued without actually saying it. Its sly and clever. I think its just way ahead of its time. Think about it. Play the games 1 thru 3. Choices do matter in the game but not the end, because it is still not the end. "Tell me one more story about the Shepard."

I thought about that, and if you were right I can live with the ending, but BW confirm that this was Shepard last chapter. So that's the ending. The true and final ending

Mass Effect 4 is a lie.

I truly hope it is. I am done with the ME universe. Knowing that it can have any kind of retarded Deus Ex Machina around each corner, under the excuse "reaper tech is too advanced for us to understand", completely annihilated that universe for me (shepard style).

[LittleBlueChildrenNow]

StElmo wrote...

LittleBlueChildrenNow wrote...

Azrever XVII wrote...
Its not a broken ending! lol its a to be continued without actually saying it. Its sly and clever. I think its just way ahead of its time. Think about it. Play the games 1 thru 3. Choices do matter in the game but not the end, because it is still not the end. "Tell me one more story about the Shepard."

I thought about that, and if you were right I can live with the ending, but BW confirm that this was Shepard last chapter. So that's the ending. The true and final ending

How can you live with the ending if starchild exists? It makes no logical sense. That's the problem, not wether shepard lives or dies.

If there were ME4 with Shepard, I'm sure they would give us a good explanation about the entire ending, star shild included..

[Bufardo74]

EugeneBi wrote...

We are shooting the breeze while waiting till summer. Why does this offend you?

Not at all, EugeneBi. I'm all for healthy discussion.

I think you might've misinterpreted my meaning; My comment wasn't directed at fellow forumites, but rather to BioWare itself.

I was merely questioning the validity of this thread's topic as a whole now, given the response we received in regards to the ending/s and the direction of the EC, not the opinions of those who have posted.

[Belhawk]

i agree with bufardo, did BW really listen. NO
we told them the ending was crap because it violated lore and logic, and their response was to give us an expanded ending explain there ARTISTIC ending to us philistines.
AND if u have to go back and explain an ending, u blew it. ME 1 & 2 both had great endings and the fights leading up to them were great to, BUT it was the opposite for ME 3.

[SkullZro]

LittleBlueChildrenNow wrote...

StElmo wrote...

LittleBlueChildrenNow wrote...

Azrever XVII wrote...
Its not a broken ending! lol its a to be continued without actually saying it. Its sly and clever. I think its just way ahead of its time. Think about it. Play the games 1 thru 3. Choices do matter in the game but not the end, because it is still not the end. "Tell me one more story about the Shepard."

I thought about that, and if you were right I can live with the ending, but BW confirm that this was Shepard last chapter. So that's the ending. The true and final ending

How can you live with the ending if starchild exists? It makes no logical sense. That's the problem, not wether shepard lives or dies.

If there were ME4 with Shepard, I'm sure they would give us a good explanation about the entire ending, star shild included..

Well ME4 will probably happen after hearing about todays figuress with ME3 selling over 4 million copies BW cant afford not to have another ME game but that is besides the point.  If the ending was the indoctrination ending that the internet is set to beiieve then so many things have not happened.  The reapers are not defeated, the crucible hasn't been used, Shepard may or may not be alive.  To be honest from a realistic perspective its unfathamable that you could defeat the reapers with one device and have a story book ending.  ME4 could be they fail to beat the reapers at Earth and are pushed back.  If Shepard is indoctrinated then he could end up like Saren in the first game and you could fight his as a final boss in ME4.  That would be a cool dynamic as well having to kill your character that your created through these last 3 games.  

I didn't initially have faith in BW because it looked like they were going to sell us that story dlc in which I would be mad that it was an incomplete product that I bought and I had to pay for dlc to see an ending (which should always be in a story and game).  But now looking at how they are responding to feedback and exploring all the angles of the ending I am hopeful.  

[Bufardo74]

Belhawk wrote...

i agree with bufardo, did BW really listen. NO
we told them the ending was crap because it violated lore and logic, and their response was to give us an expanded ending explain there ARTISTIC ending to us philistines.
AND if u have to go back and explain an ending, u blew it. ME 1 & 2 both had great endings and the fights leading up to them were great to, BUT it was the opposite for ME 3.

^ This exactly. & Thanks for the nod, Belhawk.

[luci90]

Theronyll Itholien wrote...

LittleBlueChildrenNow wrote...

Azrever XVII wrote...

Its not a broken ending! lol its a to be continued without actually saying it. Its sly and clever. I think its just way ahead of its time. Think about it. Play the games 1 thru 3. Choices do matter in the game but not the end, because it is still not the end. "Tell me one more story about the Shepard."

I thought about that, and if you were right I can live with the ending, but BW confirm that this was Shepard last chapter. So that's the ending. The true and final ending

Mass Effect 4 is a lie.

I truly hope it is. I am done with the ME universe. Knowing that it can have any kind of retarded Deus Ex Machina around each corner, under the excuse "reaper tech is too advanced for us to understand", completely annihilated that universe for me (shepard style).

Reminds me of mgs4 and nanomachines.


Except mgs4, even with that, was the best movie I ever played.

[kiyomizu]

Theronyll Itholien wrote...

Mass Effect 4 is a lie.

I truly hope it is. I am done with the ME universe. Knowing that it can have any kind of retarded Deus Ex Machina around each corner, under the excuse "reaper tech is too advanced for us to understand", completely annihilated that universe for me (shepard style).

I have little doubt ME4 is in the pipeline and the RGB ending was meant to shoehorn us into something.  It will be interesting to see how badly sales of ME4 (and other future ME content) are affected given the many people (myself included) who share your sentiment.

Modifié par kiyomizu, 13 avril 2012 - 07:34 .

[aprilryan515]

It's inconceivable that this ending is infact the conclusion to the story Bioware had planned all along. Especially after comments like-

"It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings,where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them.”  Casey Hudson

"There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets?"  Mike Gamble

I sincerely hope this is carefully planed down to the smallest detail. That the story (ending) will continue as intented, and, amazement and admiration for Bioware will sweep away all the headaches.

The greatest experience in gaming history is balanced on a double-edged knife between total victory and utter disaster. Striving for excellence has always come to mind when thinking of Bioware. Please make it stick.

Modifié par aprilryan515, 13 avril 2012 - 08:52 .

[Jassu1979]

aprilryan515 wrote...

It's inconceivable that this ending is infact the conclusion to the story Bioware had planned all along. Especially after comments like-

"It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings,where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them.”  Casey Hudson

"There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets?"  Mike Gamble

I sincerely hope this is carefully planed down to the smallest detail. That the story (ending) will continue as intented, and, amazement and admiration for Bioware will sweep away all the headaches.

The greatest experience in gaming history is balanced on a double-edged knife between total victory and utter disaster. Striving for excellence has always come to mind when thinking of Bioware. Please make it stick.

This is what I hope for, believing that the people who created the rest of the series could not possibly fail so spectacularly on the all-important last minutes of what was supposed to be the most epic conclusion ever, AND then pretending bewilderment and surprise at people's reactions to it.

I could imagine that they messed up due to time constraints - but then it would be unreasonable for them to hold on to it and declare their pride and support for that "major artistic achievement", even from a PR point of view. I cannot imagine that anyone in the ME-team could possibly look at the Normandy speeding away for no reason (with your ground team on board, no less) and then say: "Ah, the crowning achievement of our career!"
Long story short: the ending is badly written, badly executed, and stands in marked contrast to the rest of the series in general and ME3 in particular; it sticks out like a sore thumb, and even people who are not very savvy in terms of writing fiction can immediately see that it's sub-par work.

So... what is stopping them from doing better? At this point, admitting that the ending does not live up to the standards they themselves have set would count MUCH more in their favour than polished PR-talk and lots of silence. They gamble their whole reputation on an ending that's too weak to carry their weight - unless they're planning for something big, and have been doing so all along. I still remember a commentary along the lines of "if the fans knew what was coming, the reaction would be different".
I'm holding them to that, and if they cannot live up to that - then the Bioware we knew and loved is long dead, anyway.

[wiggums91]

Please please please make it end at the last anderson scene, I think it's called 'I'm proud of you'
Please, it would be perfect, shepard fires the crucible after anderson dies, no godchild (whats with him?), no space magic, just the crucible firing and not destroying the mass relays and killing everything in the galaxy. Also, aren't all the turians and quarians now trapped in sol going to starve pretty quickly? That's a shame.

[VV00d13]

All this talk about ME4 comming I think is a lie.

Mostly because of the playtime.
In ME1-2 carefully listen to all conversations exploring everything, I got to a 40 hours playtime each on both games.
ME3 just seemed rushed with like 17-19 hours at MAX on insanity.
The whole last game seem so extreamly 'rushed' from start to the end!
Ofc earth is under attack, but still, all small things like searching minerals, landing on planets for side quests, even the main plot, it's all so cut down to be 'as short as possible'

ME3 had great moments wih mordin, the geth/quarian, genophage and more.
But compared to all the other games it's really bad.
The deepness is gone, no real side quest except firing a probe.
It's like they didn't want to do the last game :/ that's my feeling right now.

So if they would've planned for ME4 the game woul've been 'thicker' with quests and plot and at least reach to 30-40 hours play

[wiggums91]

VV00d13 wrote...

All this talk about ME4 comming I think is a lie.

Mostly because of the playtime.
In ME1-2 carefully listen to all conversations exploring everything, I got to a 40 hours playtime each on both games.
ME3 just seemed rushed with like 17-19 hours at MAX on insanity.
The whole last game seem so extreamly 'rushed' from start to the end!
Ofc earth is under attack, but still, all small things like searching minerals, landing on planets for side quests, even the main plot, it's all so cut down to be 'as short as possible'

ME3 had great moments wih mordin, the geth/quarian, genophage and more.
But compared to all the other games it's really bad.
The deepness is gone, no real side quest except firing a probe.
It's like they didn't want to do the last game :/ that's my feeling right now.

So if they would've planned for ME4 the game woul've been 'thicker' with quests and plot and at least reach to 30-40 hours play

Could not agree more. Mass Effect 1 Dev time: about 4 years i think
Mass Effect 2 Dev time: about 2 years
Mass Effect 3: 1+1/2 years.

I would have been fine with it, but it seemed like the last 2 missions, (Cerberus HQ/Earth) were just far too hurried.

[clarkusdarkus]

wiggums91 wrote...

VV00d13 wrote...

All this talk about ME4 comming I think is a lie.

Mostly because of the playtime.
In ME1-2 carefully listen to all conversations exploring everything, I got to a 40 hours playtime each on both games.
ME3 just seemed rushed with like 17-19 hours at MAX on insanity.
The whole last game seem so extreamly 'rushed' from start to the end!
Ofc earth is under attack, but still, all small things like searching minerals, landing on planets for side quests, even the main plot, it's all so cut down to be 'as short as possible'

ME3 had great moments wih mordin, the geth/quarian, genophage and more.
But compared to all the other games it's really bad.
The deepness is gone, no real side quest except firing a probe.
It's like they didn't want to do the last game :/ that's my feeling right now.

So if they would've planned for ME4 the game woul've been 'thicker' with quests and plot and at least reach to 30-40 hours play

Could not agree more. Mass Effect 1 Dev time: about 4 years i think
Mass Effect 2 Dev time: about 2 years
Mass Effect 3: 1+1/2 years.

I would have been fine with it, but it seemed like the last 2 missions, (Cerberus HQ/Earth) were just far too hurried.

exactly, not to mention the gears of war influence it had, couldnt have been less on an RPG, 31 fetch quests which really wasnt a quest, shephards now a delivery man. ME4 shouldnt even give them ideas considering the travesty that is ME3. the argument because the earths being attacked by reapers hence thats the main focus doesnt bode well, as firstly its a videogame, and FF7 had a meteor coming down but you could still breed chocobo's, race them at gold saucer, battle arena, motorcycle/snowboading etc...... ME3 needs more than a new ending and considering we aint even getting a new ending but more scences means even if they announce ME4, i wont be interested.

[Jassu1979]

We could use a little humour in here:

Shepard's reaction to the ending

and

The Reapers explain their motivation

Modifié par Jassu1979, 13 avril 2012 - 11:28 .

[PeacebringerEA]

Just gonna toss my story in here, among the pages and pages of fellow players.  I'm sure it'll get lost in 5min flat but maybe, just maybe the right Bioware employee will read it....

I work at a local Gamestop and this is a story about how Bioware is losing piles of money every day.  I am one guy and I can influence, within my local area, how well/popular a game does by doing one very simple thing, mentioning it.  Every single customer asks me "What's new?" and for those moments while I was still playing through ME3 every single time I handed them the game and told them how great a time I was having, and if possible they should play the first 2 on top of that.  I sold so many copies of ME2 (still sold new) and ME3 it was rediculous, and if a used copy of ME1 entered the store it was gone within the hour. 
Then I finished the game.
I don't need to go into how spectacularly and completely you guys dropped the ball on this ending, there are several videos/theories/and most of the posts in this very forum that describe that quite well.  What I want to point out is that whatever your great plan is you better execute it quickly.  Because since I finished ME3 I have sold maybe 5 copies, in the last 2 weeks, and those were to people who just were die hard fans and HAD to have it.  And even then I tell them "I don't want to spoil anything, but, if you've heard about the ending to ME3 being terrible, it really is.  So, when you get to a beam of light, and you'll know when, just turn off the game and walk away becaues the next 15min will so completely ruin your enjoyment of the game that you will also lose all interest in playing ME1 and ME2".  No-one has listened to my advice yet.  I know this because 100% of them come back to rant with me about the endings.  
I don't go into the endings.  I don't go into details.  I simply tell any customer who picks up the game that they should put it back down and either go rent it or buy it many months later and wait to see what Bioware does.  ONLY the most diehard fans still buy the game.  I am currently sitting on, well, actually I probably shouldn't mention the exact number, but lets use the term "Boxes and Boxes and Boxes" of copies of ME3 that will not get sold unless someone specifically asks for it.  It's down in the spine of the wall, out of site, and out of mind to most people.  And I'm just one guy, in one store.  Imagine how many more employess like me there are out there, because with all these posts I know I'm not alone.  You may not realize it Bioware but while you hit me in my wallet with that terrible ending I (and basically anyone who's actually played ME3) will be returning the favor.  The ONLY employees I see even remotely mentioning ME3 to customers are ones who have never played it and just know "it's a new game". 
So great job.  I can only describe what you're doing as the actual execution of Charlie Sheen's "WINNING".  You're "WINNING" yourself right out of business.  The unfortunate thing here as well is that you may not realize just how many people are NOT online with their systems.  Well, actually, I'm sure you have the #'s of how many units you've sold vs how many online passes have been activated, but still, whatever super cool fancy "explanation" you come up with won't even be available for many players who are under the mistaken impression that when they pay $60 for a game they actually get the whole game.  Imagine paying for "Fight Club" and having the movie end 20min before he shoots himself in the mouth, only to have an extra 20min clip released online later for the low price of $5?  Most people who watched the movie wouldn't even get that DLC and instead just continue to tell everyone they know how terrible a movie it was.  Speaking of "Fight Club", the indoctrination theory is one of the only ways I see you getting out of this with any respect at all.  If that theory isn't what you guys have planned, then go with it and pretend that it is, because it's Over 9000 times better than your ending and it's pieced together theory from fans.  And Summer is way too far off, we're already losing patience/interest and it's been a whopping 30days.  Even if you do release some mind blowing ending most people will have forgotten and moved on. 
Long Story Short (too late), you need to jump on the ball NOW and completely fix these endings NOW if you want to continue to make piles of money.  You can probably still stay in business and do "meh", you've done enough previous games that I don't see you going bankrupt or anything, but really at best I only see you guys doing "meh" from now on.  Also you should probably just rename your company now because anything with the word's "Bioware" on them is  just going to get auto-spined (basically a death sentence).
Cheers!

[garytwine]

kiyomizu wrote...

Theronyll Itholien wrote...

Mass Effect 4 is a lie.

I truly hope it is. I am done with the ME universe. Knowing that it can have any kind of retarded Deus Ex Machina around each corner, under the excuse "reaper tech is too advanced for us to understand", completely annihilated that universe for me (shepard style).

I have little doubt ME4 is in the pipeline and the RGB ending was meant to shoehorn us into something.  It will be interesting to see how badly sales of ME4 (and other future ME content) are affected given the many people (myself included) who share your sentiment.

Hmmm, but what if BW do a complete 180%, actually prove that after ME3 they are listening to the fans and make ME4 something that surpasses any title they've created. If you hear good word of mouth would you still disregard the game for the sake of principle or go down the 'forgive but not forget' route?

Modifié par garytwine, 13 avril 2012 - 12:06 .