23455 réponses à ce sujet

[IIsht.BoSa]

Juggernaut241 wrote...

How about a final boss fight with Harbinger in the extended cut. Would love to kick his bug ass back to Andromeda or whatever black hole they crawled out of.

Or a Boss fight with the Catalyst where you - with a paragon interrupt - could kick it off the station.
That alone would make the ending much better.

[Khemi]

A random thought on bittersweetness occurred to me recently - If the ending remains as it is, my only related moment of bittersweet closure will be some years in the future when a game review concludes: "This is the series Mass Effect could have been."

[3DandBeyond]

The only thing your decisions throughout the games seem to effect are war assets, which can impact endings somewhat.

I actually do have some problems with the whole premise of the game (ME3) to start with. It's something that repeatedly gets brushed aside-the idea that all these military forces should drop everything and get to Earth. Earth got attacked and people didn't just give up on it, but when other homeworlds do, the attitude is "oh now that's sad that planet fell". But that's another discussion altogether.

What I do think is that doing the best in the game is actually the worst for what can happen. If you get max war assets assembled at Earth then when the relays are destroyed (and no matter what they will be), you should have also either totally destroyed the fleets or totally stranded them at Earth.

It would be really nice if at some point the devs/writers and all would state just exactly what it meant to them, if that's possible.

The only explanation I can come up with is that it's like the Kobayashi Maru in Star Trek. It's a test with no right answer. Or, it's like a Twilight Zone episode.

I think what I'd like to see at the very least is that the decisions to be made at the end take into account not only the sacrifices of self and others along the way, but also the guts and determination the character has. Even Paragon or Renegade choices have little meaning here. It makes more sense for their to be options with P or R choices-a wimpier Shepard might just go along, but a more risk-taking one would talk back, at least.

I think whoever said that there's no reason they couldn't have a terrible ending as well as a totally happy ending and everything in between hit it right on the head.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 14 avril 2012 - 03:28 .

[3DandBeyond]

Khemi wrote...

A random thought on bittersweetness occurred to me recently - If the ending remains as it is, my only related moment of bittersweet closure will be some years in the future when a game review concludes: "This is the series Mass Effect could have been."

Right.  As it is, there's not much sweetness here at the end.  It's all pretty bitter.   The 3 choices you get all deal with the Reapers, but have the biggest impact upon organic and synthetic life.  Even if we are left with 3 choices (though at the least there should be a 4th for synthetics and organics and not the reapers-coexistence or some such).
Even if we are left with the nonsensical Catalyst.  There are still ways to at least redeem the spirit of these games.  If these are all left intact and the endings are left as they are, it will be extremely difficult to resurrect what made the games great.

[zarnk567]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Khemi wrote...

A random thought on bittersweetness occurred to me recently - If the ending remains as it is, my only related moment of bittersweet closure will be some years in the future when a game review concludes: "This is the series Mass Effect could have been."

Right.  As it is, there's not much sweetness here at the end.  It's all pretty bitter.   The 3 choices you get all deal with the Reapers, but have the biggest impact upon organic and synthetic life.  Even if we are left with 3 choices (though at the least there should be a 4th for synthetics and organics and not the reapers-coexistence or some such).
Even if we are left with the nonsensical Catalyst.  There are still ways to at least redeem the spirit of these games.  If these are all left intact and the endings are left as they are, it will be extremely difficult to resurrect what made the games great.

Yup, Bioware failed the bitter sweet ending completly.... some of  My favorite games have had bitter sweet endings: Persona 3, MGS3, MGS4, Final Fantasy 10, Read Dead Redemption, Final Fanatsy 7 Crisis Core..... Mass Effect 3 ending was just bitter and rage inducing, and felt disconnected from the rest of the story.

[sgtReaper117]

Love the game as a whole....but that ending. I couldnt sleep well for a week. It was nothing that like how the series was supos to end

[darkway1]

zarnk567 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Khemi wrote...

A random thought on bittersweetness occurred to me recently - If the ending remains as it is, my only related moment of bittersweet closure will be some years in the future when a game review concludes: "This is the series Mass Effect could have been."

Right.  As it is, there's not much sweetness here at the end.  It's all pretty bitter.   The 3 choices you get all deal with the Reapers, but have the biggest impact upon organic and synthetic life.  Even if we are left with 3 choices (though at the least there should be a 4th for synthetics and organics and not the reapers-coexistence or some such).
Even if we are left with the nonsensical Catalyst.  There are still ways to at least redeem the spirit of these games.  If these are all left intact and the endings are left as they are, it will be extremely difficult to resurrect what made the games great.

Yup, Bioware failed the bitter sweet ending completly.... some of  My favorite games have had bitter sweet endings: Persona 3, MGS3, MGS4, Final Fantasy 10, Read Dead Redemption, Final Fanatsy 7 Crisis Core..... Mass Effect 3 ending was just bitter and rage inducing, and felt disconnected from the rest of the story.

Yep,MGS4 and RedDead had fantastic (bitter sweet) endings.........Mass3's ending should be surgically removed from the game,it's just a slapped together mess.

[Storm258]

sgtReaper117 wrote...

Love the game as a whole....but that ending. I couldnt sleep well for a week. It was nothing that like how the series was supos to end

Agreed, I finished ME3 only a couple days ago, I still have trouble sleeping and I always stay up almost the whole night, online here or at YouTube, fanfiction.net or sth, trying to just calm myself and go on, but it's really hard.
Call me a freak, but this universe with all these characters grew very important to me, I cared for them ... I know I won't remain to long in this "status", but it's still horrible.

[3DandBeyond]

I think it's sad that they could really have come up with some very creative endings.
An ending where Shepard has the choice to return things as they were before the Reapers entered the current cycle (with the Reapers gone). Shepard would have to meet his/her love interest a different way.
Or, an ending that does mean that advanced and organic life for this cycle will be destroyed, but so will the reapers and friends totally.  Time travel, yes!
Or, an ending where the reapers and friends do destroy all and we see the beginning of the rise of the next advanced civilization.  The choice doesn't do this.

Basically, the ending never addresses one big flaw in the reaper's, harbinger's, god-child's plan in the previous cycle. The Protheans were to be totally wiped out, but one (if you got the DLC) was left alive. I don't think they could allow Javik to have more influence because not everyone got the DLC, but he should have. Even though he's just a soldier, he should have totally put a kink in the god-child, reaper keeper's plan. In a way, his death would be more important than anyone else's. But, he really adds nothing much to the game.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 14 avril 2012 - 03:56 .

[darkway1]

The whole gaming industry need to wake up to the fact that they don't make games for just kids any more,you can't go and slap any old crap on the plate and expect people to except it......they screwed up DA2 and now Mass3,people aren't going to be so willing to part with their cash next time round.

[T.Attwood]

Storm258 wrote...

sgtReaper117 wrote...

Love the game as a whole....but that ending. I couldnt sleep well for a week. It was nothing that like how the series was supos to end

Agreed, I finished ME3 only a couple days ago, I still have trouble sleeping and I always stay up almost the whole night, online here or at YouTube, fanfiction.net or sth, trying to just calm myself and go on, but it's really hard.
Call me a freak, but this universe with all these characters grew very important to me, I cared for them ... I know I won't remain to long in this "status", but it's still horrible.

Same here. The ME series wants you to become emotionally involved in the characters, and you let yourself do that which makes the game engaging and meaningful. This is why (in my view) the ending of ME3 has caused such controversy. If a company wants its game players to be involved the story, they have a responsibility to ensure that all parts of the story are up-to-standard, because failure to do so can generate an emotional backlash if it goes wrong. I see Bioware wanted to create a memorable ending, but what was achieved is just painful.

Whenever I think about the scenes on Rannoch where Shepard and Tali are talking about building a house together when the war is all over, then remembering the final dialogue scenes on Earth before you set off on the final battle, and then I think about the last few minutes of the game when Shepard has no choice but to die and so will never achieve what he promised....the whole thing makes me feel sick to the point I still can't even play the game. Is this the reaction that Bioware really wants from its customers? Something has clearly gone very wrong.

[Kunari801]

T.Attwood wrote...

The ME series wants you to become emotionally involved in the characters, and you let yourself do that which makes the game engaging and meaningful. This is why (in my view) the ending of ME3 has caused such controversy... 

Exactly, BW did a great job on the Mass Effect series in getting us players to really invest care into our Shepard and crew.   ME3 was always going to be sad, since we all knew this was the end of that story.   I didn't expect such an abrupt "Rocks fall everyone dies" ending.   

I expected sad, the ME series has always been dark.   ME1 you love Kaiden/Ashley and possibly Wrex too.  ME2 you also make sacrifices tough I fought like hell and only lost Thane on the Collector base.  In ME3 we loose more, Mordin, Legion, etc.  
As much as I wanted to live and return to my LI, I knew that it quite possible I'd have to sacrifice my Shepard to win and I was good with that as long as it felt MEANINGFUL sacrifice.  However, all three endings have you pretty much destroy the galaxy and strand your crew & LI on some jungle world where you have no idea what will happen to them. 

[3DandBeyond]

@T.Attwood, I couldn't agree more. I have chosen Liara as the LI throughout the game and the gift scene and what comes after actually makes me feel physically sick. I've never experienced this in a game before.

Even though Liara is the LI, I get some of the same gut reactions to discussions with all characters at the end (Garrus and talk of heaven, particularly). What I want to feel is this overwhelming sense of jubilation that none of these conversations have to be final goodbyes. I want to see Jacob's baby.  I want to feel like I have the possibility, however slim of coming out of this and seeing these people again.  Of course, that does not mean there shouldn't be the possibility of failure and of death for all.

In order to make it more real, yes the challenge to survive should be a difficult one, but I hate that much of it is based on if I play multiplayer or not or if just my War Assets are up high enough. And a short gasp by Shepard does not create that sense of jubilation. It's not enough. I am still left with a hurt and the tiny part of me that wants to play more ME gets drowned out by the big part that says "why?"

I know it's just a videogame, but it was meant to make us feel. Movies do, tv shows do, and so it's only logical that games like these would. Well, the truth is there are no games really like these. The fact that all we feel at the end is crappy, should tell the devs just how good the rest of the game was and just how bad the endings are.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 14 avril 2012 - 04:33 .

[T.Attwood]

darkway1 wrote...

The whole gaming industry need to wake up to the fact that they don't make games for just kids any more,you can't go and slap any old crap on the plate and expect people to except it......they screwed up DA2 and now Mass3,people aren't going to be so willing to part with their cash next time round.

Yes, they did indeed make the same mistake with DA2. Bethany was a good character, but part of the way through, she is torn away from you and you cannot do anything about it. I understand it was part of the story, but I think they went about it in the wrong way. 

What these issues are highlighting, is that as games evolve and connect with the players on a deeper level, developers are going to uncover unexpected reactions and consequences that need to be understood. Developers need to remember that creating emotional reactions can cause the brain to attach unpleasant feelings towards the thing in question. For example, if you have a strong negative emotional reaction to something, (for example, a computer game), the brain will forever associate 'pain' with playing that game. This is how a franchise can be permanently damaged. It's just how the brain works. I think developers need to do some research into this, and realise the ramfications of inducing certain emotions, like a painful death scene at the end of a game. ME3's ending was so painful that many players are now avoiding playing ME3, because the brain does not want to experience that level of pain again. Some may argue that 'it is just a computer game'. Maybe, but the brain reacts to certain stimuli. Where that stimuli comes from is irrelevant. It is no different to looking at a photo and feeling something. The photo is not real, but the brain does not know that.

Edit: I just saw your prior post, 3DandBeyond. It looks like we are thinking along the same lines.

Modifié par T.Attwood, 14 avril 2012 - 04:35 .

[Storm258]

@3DandBeyond: This is exactly how I feel! I also chose Liara as my LI, and the gift scene as well as the final romance scene before the Cerberus HQ attack touched me emotionally, in such an intense way, I sure was close to tears more than only one time while I played the game.
The sad thing is that everything could have been so great, you simply mourn for the characters which died and you mourn simply cause of the feeling that most likely you youreself had no choice but to screw the whole galaxy up and leaving your squadmates including the LI stranded on some planet. It simply hurts, I gotta say, barely any video game (or story in general actually) managed to make me feel this universe, make me feel so bonded to its characters. So it's quite obvious how hurtful this is. You know, actually I wouldn't care that much about any plotholes, sure they're stupid, but I wouldn't mind at all if the finale ending just would have been what it was supposed to be from the beginning.

[ChickenMan77]

I'm glad someone brought up Red Dead...John Marston. Now that's how you kill a main protagonist going out guns blazin.. not running headlong down a track like a cow in a slaughterhouse.(or I guess shooting up an Inanimate object).Shepard's been cheated of a glorious death...sigh

In ME 2 and 3 they absolutely brow beat you with the innuendo that Shepard is going to buy it in the end. It's too bad with the endings they seem so pessimistic that the sacrifice doesn't appear worth the effort..

I actually pre-ordered the collectors edition and looked at the art still which shows Anderson and Shepard in that final hallways in the Citadel.
When I got to that part I figured there was going to be some epic conclusion ..Anderson and Shepard storming the citadel to save the galaxy... nope...Bioware realizes they make entertainment right?..I don't think I know anyone that found the end entertaining while playing it...

Well I know for sure with the ending the way it is..This the last Bioware game I ever pre-order...Next time I just wait a few months until the game is finished and listen to my friends before opening the wallet. They kept telling me yeah but the ending sucks and I would tell em you guys are nuts this game is awesome there is no way under the sun that anyone could screw the ending. I had to eat a lot of crow the day it beat it..

. Maybe the DLC will make it right, though in about 3 months I probably won't care....

On the bright side i didn't think I would enjoy the Multiplayer as much as I have..It's the one reason I find the game repayable.

[3DandBeyond]

T.Attwood wrote...

darkway1 wrote...

The whole gaming industry need to wake up to the fact that they don't make games for just kids any more,you can't go and slap any old crap on the plate and expect people to except it......they screwed up DA2 and now Mass3,people aren't going to be so willing to part with their cash next time round.

Yes, they did indeed make the same mistake with DA2. Bethany was a good character, but part of the way through, she is torn away from you and you cannot do anything about it. I understand it was part of the story, but I think they went about it in the wrong way. 

What these issues are highlighting, is that as games evolve and connect with the players on a deeper level, developers are going to uncover unexpected reactions and consequences that need to be understood. Developers need to remember that creating emotional reactions can cause the brain to attach unpleasant feelings towards the thing in question. For example, if you have a strong negative emotional reaction to something, (for example, a computer game), the brain will forever associate 'pain' with playing that game. This is how a franchise can be permanently damaged. It's just how the brain works. I think developers need to do some research into this, and realise the ramfications of inducing certain emotions, like a painful death scene at the end of a game. ME3's ending was so painful that many players are now avoiding playing ME3, because the brain does not want to experience that level of pain again. Some may argue that 'it is just a computer game'. Maybe, but the brain reacts to certain stimuli. Where that stimuli comes from is irrelevant. It is no different to looking at a photo and feeling something. The photo is not real, but the brain does not know that.

Exactly.  We don't want all cookie cutter endings.  I played the Uncharted series on the PS3 and they are of course different types of games, but similar in a way.  The Uncharted games feature great dialog which makes you like the protagonists.  They joke with each other, slam each other, and love each other.  In the end, they succeed as a series because you know they are about happy endings.  That's their thing-they tend to be more upbeat.  I have continued good thoughts about them and have played them repeatedly.  I understand the ME series isn't so clear on how it will "work out" and I don't need it to be.  I think that too much is often given away by just giving into the need to turn all games into multiplayer action genre games.  It's true not all of us buying games are teenagers-actually, the demographics are starting to skew a little older these days. 

Number one for video games, I need things to make sense. 
Number two for video games, I need to be left with the feeling that it was worth it.
Number three for video games, I need to be satisfied with what happened, good or bad.

Neither of these things is more important than the other, and together they determine replayability. And replayability drives the fanbase.

[3DandBeyond]

Storm258 wrote...

@3DandBeyond: This is exactly how I feel! I also chose Liara as my LI, and the gift scene as well as the final romance scene before the Cerberus HQ attack touched me emotionally, in such an intense way, I sure was close to tears more than only one time while I played the game.
The sad thing is that everything could have been so great, you simply mourn for the characters which died and you mourn simply cause of the feeling that most likely you youreself had no choice but to screw the whole galaxy up and leaving your squadmates including the LI stranded on some planet. It simply hurts, I gotta say, barely any video game (or story in general actually) managed to make me feel this universe, make me feel so bonded to its characters. So it's quite obvious how hurtful this is. You know, actually I wouldn't care that much about any plotholes, sure they're stupid, but I wouldn't mind at all if the finale ending just would have been what it was supposed to be from the beginning.

In the end, I feel the same way, actually when it gets right down to it.  I hope for logical things-things that make sense, but I'd forgive all that (oh yes I would) for the chance to have that happy ending.  I would replay the games happily then.  I'd let nonsense and no sense exist, because in real life in order to achieve love we often ignore reason, so why not in a video game?  I'm contradicting myself I know, but it really boils down to this one thing being the most important for me.  The chance not to feel bad about these games.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 14 avril 2012 - 04:57 .

[jeweledleah]

the best thing about Kobayashi Maru test is the fact that Kirk found a way to win it. he didn't just accept a no win situation.

I always felt that Kirk was at least partial inspiration for Shepard.

that said. I may have been doing too much thinking, too much exploring of the game, but now that I saw all of its cracks and inconsistencies and cut corners and elements that don't fit quite so well together if you even attempt to stray of the path Bioware wants you to take (both with order of the quests and character interactions). in some ways, its much much worse then DA2 in that regard.

at this point no matter what we end up getting in that extended cut, I just hope that EA and Bioware finally realize that rushed schedules and half hearted effort is just. not . good enough. and try to go back to "it will be ready when its ready" model of game making.

[3DandBeyond]

It's kind of odd that in fact, some things in ME2 have way more impact in that game than all of the rest of the stuff has on the ME3 endings.

If you are not quick to get to the Collector's base, the Dr. is mad at you and more crew members die. If you don't pick the right combination of leaders (who creates the bionic shield and such) and don't progress quickly through the game, team members die-I kept losing Garrus, but played repeatedly until all survived.

If you don't strike the right balance with Paragon and Renegade, you may lose the loyalty of a team member for good. I lost Jack's but was able to gain it back.

The fact that these things mattered so much to me are core issues. The player is Shepard. If Shepard dies or is as good as dead with no movement forward isolated, what is the player left with?

What sums it up for me is that after the ending, I lost heart. They didn't just leave Shepard dead or in ashes, they left us that way, too.

Yeah for the Kobayashi maru Kirk had to cheat to win-wish that were so here, that Shepard could cheat and find another alternative.  I do feel that Shepard is somewhat modeled after Kirk.  I thought it funny that at times Mordin sounded like Kirk with his voice's cadence and inflection.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 14 avril 2012 - 05:26 .

[DirtyDeluxe]

Whoever brought up Red Dead Redemption deserves an A. Perfect comparison to what a real ending should look like.

[DirtyDeluxe]

How do I put a GIF in my signature?

[ChickenMan77]

Yeah who would of thunk that Rockstar could trump Bioware on storytelling...It truly is end times!!!

[darkway1]

DirtyDeluxe wrote...

Whoever brought up Red Dead Redemption deserves an A. Perfect comparison to what a real ending should look like.

This is where the real problem lies,Red Dead was not contructed to spawn endless DLC,it was also released as a finished product.

[Netherspin]

Just out of curiosity, could someone please list some (or better - all possible) logic and lore violations in the ending?
I promise I won't go into a "you're all wrong because so and so and so" spree, I'd just like to see if I myself can't see the red thread in it and explain it away to my own satisfaction.
Again, I do actually like the ending, and while not buying into it, I'd like to at least know what the fuzz is about.

Modifié par Netherspin, 14 avril 2012 - 06:09 .