23455 réponses à ce sujet

[TsubakiYayoi]

sefudargo wrote...

DarkShadow wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

But these people have already reached the conclusion that any attempt to improve on what is there is going to suck.  There is no redeeming what is already there.  Only a complete scrapping will do... not that I have any faith that they'd be happy with whatever remake was presented, anyway.

And once again I read this bs. The ending didn't fit the ME series and on this forum there are hundreds of explanations why. EVERY SINGLE ending fanfic I've read so far follows the same pattern. If Bioware keeps this pattern in whatever they do to replace the ending, the majority WILL be pleased.

wait what pattern. the deletion of Star child or defying it

I think it would help a lot if they would replace Star Child with a Projection of Harbinger (like in the Arrival DLC) The sheer presence of a Reaper voice alone would add to a better ending.
In ME3 Harbinger talks less than Space Hamster

[sefudargo]

TsubakiYayoi wrote...


I think it would help a lot if they would replace Star Child with a Projection of Harbinger (like in the Arrival DLC) The sheer presence of a Reaper voice alone would add to a better ending.
In ME3 Harbinger talks less than Space Hamster

I was actually writing a fan ending with Harbinger replaceing Star child and explaining how the first advance galactic civilization spend a millenia fighting their creations and after nearly deafeting them the surmized that all further organics would eventually build synthetics that will one day rebel aguinst them and to stop it from happening they sacrificed themselves to create the reapers and that the crucible will help Organics and Synthetics understand each other. I would make synthisis the only option. but no glowing circit vains.

[jeweledleah]

Netherspin wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

which is exactly the point.

self aware citadel shoudln't need the keepers to send out any signals.  it shoudln't need a vanguard to stay behind and observe.

see the god child twist doesn't fit precicely becasue in the prior 2 games, reapers were setup as the villians NOT patsies and the entire plot of ME1, as well as the over reaching plost of ME2 + Arrival confirms that notion, it does NOTHING to foreshadow the godchild.

I can accept it as a VI, a failsafe, or a manifestation created by Harbinger messing with Shepards' mind.  as a creator of the reapers and the fascilitator of the solution who somehow manages to change the citadel to present other options, where 2 out of 3 (and the first ones available)  in some way destroyes the reapers.. by either controling them or destroying them.  it turns them from actual fully evolved independant "each a nation" AI into giant Loki mechs.

and becasue of that, we suddenly have a new enemy.  and we cannot win against that enemy.  we cannot argue, we cannot even refuse to do what we're told by that enemy.  we are rendered helpless and forced into destroying the very thing we were trying to protect and save - our galaxy and individual people we care about.  we are shown that through out all 3 games, we were basicaly wasting our time on a red herring.

First off the keepers technically doesn't send out a signal, they respond to a signal sent by the vanguard and perform on-site actions to activate the hidden relay.

As I see it the selfaware catalyst is a blindside because it's kept hidden from everyone. It needs to be kept from the reapers in order to avoid the otherwise enivitable rebellion of the created. It obviously needs to be kept from the organics since they need to be taken by surprise in order for the end of the cycle to be extermination rather than grand scale war.
Thus a vanguard and the keepers are nessecary to let the reapers think they are the first and not merely a solution to a problem.

If you accept the premise of the crucible as a presumed weapon supposedly left over by previous cycles - which I assume most here does because that's a theme going through all of ME3 and is not solely related to the ending. Then you also accept that this thing is the last hope of the galaxy - the only plan they have, and the functions of it would not be changed by diseases, political or personal relations, in the same way your car functions the same way regardless of who you marry..
Shepard will not argue since arguing with the catalyst is not going to save Earth. Every minute he spends not activating the crucible more and more people are lost in this terrible war, and not activating it at all means that all is lost and the cycle continues.
The only reason to stay and chat with this little boy is that the boy seems to know how the crucible is activated and what it does, and Shepard don't.

pardon - Keepers resieve the signal, not send it.  you are right about that.  however, you are still going with Reapers being manipulated, glorified Loki mechs.  which basicaly means all this time, Shepard was wasting time, fightning the wrong enemy.  and Catalyst who at the time supposedly didn't know that this sycle and Shepard was "speshul"  just lets things slide instead of ACTIVATING THE DAMN CITADEL HIMSELF AND ALLOWING REAPERS TO COME THROUGH ON SCHEDULE. aptly illustrated by this image media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/3/2632/catalysttrolling.png

I have to accept the crucible, as tacked on as it is (they litteraly handwave its discovery, they are building this piece of technology BLIND, without knowing that it does or how it works, instead of trying to build more, largescale Thanix canons for one...), becasue the whole damn game is about buying time and resources to build it.

but if the boy is aware and is an AI - it neuteres Reapers.  if the boy is just a fail safe VI  who knows how to activate the crucible, what the hell is with the on button being "shoot the tube"  and why must Shepard jump into a magical beam  and how the hell do those otpions just get built that quickly anyways (keepers are good, but even for keepers, it takes time to build things, fixing bulkheads takes them time, nevermind complex devices like that) or you mean they were already there, just waiting.  so what.  those sycles were just an experiment to see how long it takes silly organics to get this far or something?  remember, catalyst says that CRUCIBLE changed it.  untill Crucible docked, it was business as usual for the god child. so it took him what.. minutes to BUILD new solutions?

the whole thing is riddled with holes, but bringing the star child into it as someone who controls the reapers and the crucible makes the whole thing a complete FUBAR. 

is it still fixable though in a way that might make a majority of people happy, including those hell bend on tragic sacrifice?  yes.  yes it is.  the easiest way would be to get rid of the damned child (or if they MUST keep him - turn him into central citadel VI or something, rather then reaper controler) and keep crucible a hidden weapon it had seemed to be, instead of a magical off button with three equaly silly settings.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 16 avril 2012 - 11:41 .

[3DandBeyond]

Keyrlis wrote...

I keep thinking back to Back to the Future 2.
Remember how Marty was left stranded while Doc got zapped back to the old west? And then you have Joe Flaherty walk up in his trenchcoat in the rain, and hand Marty an old envelope with a letter from 100 yrs ago?
That's how I felt at the end of ME3, that there was another story to be told. The stargazer isn't exactly a Western Union letter from "Doc", but I'm hoping. I just keep thinking, "maybe they are planning to tell the truth in the next game", that we just need to wait for them to release the actual end of the 'quadrilogy', or something. I could even stand by the Indoctrination Theory holding up the end of ME3 as decent, as long as I knew there would be some final explanation. End Cut better be good, or I am full-on wearing my N7 Armor costume with @ssless chaps to Comicon next year so everyone can see my public-disappointing end.

I mean, like, why didn't they have Michael J. Fox as the Stargazer's grandkid?
"He's alive! :OThe Shepard's Alive in the past!"

BTW, anybody other than me want to see this alien's eyes doubled so he looks more like a Prothean?

Hahaha about the alien's eyes-that would fit better.

I also hoped that the joke was on us, that the stargazer and the gasp Shepard took meant another game.  Even though they said this was the end.  They have said there would be more ME3 content-said that from the beginning.  I actually hope this is like the New Coke/classic Coke ad grab.  No one could honestly believe that Coca Cola was going to dump their original recipe.

This has been the biggest story (mostly ignored by the gaming review world) in videogames.  Other than some of the debacles of the usual problems other titles face (Bethesda games) or the issues some smaller titles have had (Dark Souls bugs), the disgust with the ending of this game is news.

That doesn't mean fans can hijack a game and all, but it does mean gaming companies do have some responsibility in holding true to promises made and ideas within stories, especially in game series.  It may be that EA/Bioware always intended to do so, but unfortunately they hinted at it way too subtly, if so.

[jeweledleah]

omg. I cannot believe I forgot that. they HAVE foreshadowed the crucible. not the god child but the crucible itself. they could have connected it, IN game, made it make more sense... I'm reading fanfic by sagequeen right now. and she reminded me. Derelict reaper. was killed by massive Mass accelerator weapon. http://masseffect.wi...Derelict_Reaper

this could have been, should have been the very first incarnation of the crucible. and ever since then every cycle tried to refine it, make it fire more precisely etc. they COULD HAVE USED THAT. THIS was their foreshadowing. is it becasue Drew left that they veered off in some weird direction instead?

[Benchpress610]

jeweledleah wrote...

omg. I cannot believe I forgot that. they HAVE foreshadowed the crucible. not the god child but the crucible itself. they could have connected it, IN game, made it make more sense... I'm reading fanfic by sagequeen right now. and she reminded me. Derelict reaper. was killed by massive Mass accelerator weapon. http://masseffect.wi...Derelict_Reaper

this could have been, should have been the very first incarnation of the crucible. and ever since then every cycle tried to refine it, make it fire more precisely etc. they COULD HAVE USED THAT. THIS was their foreshadowing. is it becasue Drew left that they veered off in some weird direction instead?

You just ninjaed me  I was about to write about the same subject. I always thought the seeds for the super-weapon to defeat the reapers, whatever its name was, were planted in ME2 in the derilect reaper mission.

[aprilryan515]

Just finished reading through the list of so called professional reviews posted in this Forum. Jaw Dropping reading. If you have the time you should go check it out.

http://social.biowar...3/index/9658497

Modifié par aprilryan515, 16 avril 2012 - 12:42 .

[sefudargo]

Benchpress610 wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

omg. I cannot believe I forgot that. they HAVE foreshadowed the crucible. not the god child but the crucible itself. they could have connected it, IN game, made it make more sense... I'm reading fanfic by sagequeen right now. and she reminded me. Derelict reaper. was killed by massive Mass accelerator weapon. http://masseffect.wi...Derelict_Reaper

this could have been, should have been the very first incarnation of the crucible. and ever since then every cycle tried to refine it, make it fire more precisely etc. they COULD HAVE USED THAT. THIS was their foreshadowing. is it becasue Drew left that they veered off in some weird direction instead?

You just ninjaed me  I was about to write about the same subject. I always thought the seeds for the super-weapon to defeat the reapers, whatever its name was, were planted in ME2 in the derilect reaper mission.

they even had it in ME1. there is a planet that has a giant scar on it. like a realy big mass accelerator fired and teh bullet scrabed the planet.

[jeweledleah]

sefudargo wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

omg. I cannot believe I forgot that. they HAVE foreshadowed the crucible. not the god child but the crucible itself. they could have connected it, IN game, made it make more sense... I'm reading fanfic by sagequeen right now. and she reminded me. Derelict reaper. was killed by massive Mass accelerator weapon. http://masseffect.wi...Derelict_Reaper

this could have been, should have been the very first incarnation of the crucible. and ever since then every cycle tried to refine it, make it fire more precisely etc. they COULD HAVE USED THAT. THIS was their foreshadowing. is it becasue Drew left that they veered off in some weird direction instead?

You just ninjaed me  I was about to write about the same subject. I always thought the seeds for the super-weapon to defeat the reapers, whatever its name was, were planted in ME2 in the derilect reaper mission.

they even had it in ME1. there is a planet that has a giant scar on it. like a realy big mass accelerator fired and teh bullet scrabed the planet.

exactly!  its that same planet, TIm just found the target that bullet was fired at.  which is probably what was Drew's plan.  give hints about existance of a super weapon.  hell, those beings of light?  it could have been the race that created that super weapon.  hell, they can even salvage the boy child, by making him an equivalent of Vendeta, but for that race.  a remnant, a memory, hidden, dormant, until crusible docks to activate it (rather then change it).

NOT a creator and controler of reapers.  not something with that silly solution to an illogical problem. my god...  THIS is what happens when instead of having a team write a subplot, you give it to 2 people with too much affection for deus ex and apparent innability to check with wiki when it actualy counts.

[Lioneli]

Now I get it. Casey Hudson works for Dark Brotherhood. His mission was to kill Mass Effect series. And he did it flawlessly. Then everyone thinks it's safe as one of the best franchise in games industry, BAM he strikes and Mass Effect is dead. Well done mate.

[Lioneli]

Don't know mate.looking at the ending, looks that he's really trying hard. As for followers look at it a little bit different how many people on this site likes the ending? You forget that maybe only 1 person out of 20 is writing their opinion.

[AmstradHero]

magnetite wrote...
The guy who voiced Harbinger in Mass Effect 2 was not cast for the role in Mass Effect 3. Probably why Harbinger never speaks.

Tip: rehire the VOs for the characters that people like. Don't hire people to do VOs who aren't VO artists... like say... Jessica Chobot. They can't do good VO.

magnetite wrote...
Casey Hudson and a few others came up with the idea for the franchise. I don't think they are out to kill their own creation.

No, he just did it unintentionally by writing the ending with Mac Walters without any consultation with the rest of the team. Something that is painfully obvious from the multitude of flaws.

magnetite wrote...
How many followers do you have? Around 100K or so? Mass Effect 3 sold 3.5 million copies, so I'd say you guys are in the minority. It's my understanding a company will do what's best for the majority of its playerbase.

How many people actually frequent these forums? How many actually voice their opinion? How many people have actually come out and produced a solid logical and reasoned defence of the ending that doesn't revolve around either gratuituous handwaving or relying solely on the crutch of "maintain artistic integrity"? It's a very small percentage in all three cases.

Based on the sample space we have available, the vast majority of gamers find the ending woefully inadequate. BioWare are hiding behind their manufactured shield of artistic integrity and the bunch of "perfect review scores" that don't reflect public opinion, but the opinion of an entitled, somewhat biased and personally invested viewpoint to present the game in a positive light.

I don't believe game reviewers are intentionally misleading, but the bulk of their review is concentrated on the majority of the game, which is undoubtedly excellent. Many hedged their bets on the ending with statements like "will cause much discussion" or "not everyone will like the ending" or they simply don't mention it at all.  This isn't a case of the reviewers being "wrong" - they're simply not focusing on what is important to so many gamers - the conclusion of the tale.

So many people agree that the game is utterly fantastic... except for the final 10 or so minutes. That the ending is so woefully written and executed is a brutal and unworthy ending to an excellent game and an excellent series. If BioWare cannot realise and admit to this, then they will almost certainly lose a lot of fans. I've bought all their gamers on day 1 after playing Baldur's Gate, but I'm one of the fans who won't buy another BioWare game unless they admit that the ending is truly terrible and fix it.

[jeweledleah]

interesting thing about majority and stuff. whenever surveys are done, the ONLY survey that counts every single person is Census. but that doesn't count options, just heads. otherwise, surveys are done with a representative number. usually polling several thousand people is enough to create representative opinion. when movies are screened, they are not showed to everyone, only to the much smaller focus group.

and when it comes to ME3 ending, it seems that even on websites where more people are pro ending, the split is something like 60% hated it, 30% liked it and other 10% doesn't care one way or anything.

when it comes to BSN, which represents hardcore fanbase, aka - people who actually spend money on collectors editions, DLC's, tie in books, merchandise, etc rather then casual players, who may not even finish the games they buy, who definitely don't buy any extras for it. when it comes to BSN, it seems that the ratio is 10 to 1. for every person who liked the ending, 10 people didn't like it.

what am I expecting from Bioware? to show me that they are still capable of writing games that I want to spend my time and money on.

[ChickenMan77]

Most people generally dislike the ending. Some to where they can't even play it anymore..that's going to hurt your DLC...I would just of like to be informed beforehand that this is the Tragic ending of Shepard not the Epic conclusion to the series like it was Marketed as...shot a pipe. blew up galaxy..watched my "loyal" companions cut and run when the fighting was hottest..Not really Epic in my opinion more like A Tragic tale...enjoy being Marooned in a Shattered Galaxy on a hopefully toxic planet ..Joker--Break a leg literally hope you break your legs you coward!

[Lioneli]

magnetite wrote...
Casey Hudson and a few others came up with the idea for the franchise. I don't think they are out to kill their own creation.

Maybe he does't want his creation to rebbel against him;)))

[3DandBeyond]

That's the thing, it is quite true that people that are unhappy with a product are often way more vocal about their dislikes than those that like it. Except...when it comes to fans.

There are many such instances where products have high fan fervor (Apple devices for example). The voices of those that love such products often run neck and neck with those that have problems with them-or they even drown them out.

There is no doubt, based upon all the fan videos on youtube and fan love here on these forums, that people are hooked into these games. People that hate the ending almost all say how much they loved the rest of the game(s). So, it is extremely obvious which way opinion on this tracks-fans by and large, do not like the ending as is. Some may like it, but most do not. This is about as close to scientific as you can possibly get.

In a nutshell, fervent fans frequent this site. They talk about the games, they love the games, they hype the games. They hate the ending.

If Bioware perhaps planned this all along, then well kudos as well as shame on them. Kudos for keeping people talking (this was said somewhere that they wanted the games to be talked about long after people were through playing them). For shame, for dragging around your fans in this way.

But, I still hope this was some kind of big joke. There are so many hints at Indoctrination or dreaming, that I'd live with this, if they show what comes after. That means the games must continue in order for the reapers to be wiped out and things put right. If the whole series was indoctrination from the time Shepard was hit by the beacon, then it still leaves a lot of questions out there.


Funny, but in a way since Casey Hudson was the project director for the game and the game created fans (us), then in the truest sense we are also the created and he the creator.  Hmmmm, we are rebelling.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 16 avril 2012 - 02:17 .

[Mandalorian9]

3DandBeyond wrote...

That's the thing, it is quite true that people that are unhappy with a product are often way more vocal about their dislikes than those that like it. Except...when it comes to fans.

There are many such instances where products have high fan fervor (Apple devices for example). The voices of those that love such products often run neck and neck with those that have problems with them-or they even drown them out.

There is no doubt, based upon all the fan videos on youtube and fan love here on these forums, that people are hooked into these games. People that hate the ending almost all say how much they loved the rest of the game(s). So, it is extremely obvious which way opinion on this tracks-fans by and large, do not like the ending as is. Some may like it, but most do not. This is about as close to scientific as you can possibly get.

In a nutshell, fervent fans frequent this site. They talk about the games, they love the games, they hype the games. They hate the ending.

If Bioware perhaps planned this all along, then well kudos as well as shame on them. Kudos for keeping people talking (this was said somewhere that they wanted the games to be talked about long after people were through playing them). For shame, for dragging around your fans in this way.

But, I still hope this was some kind of big joke. There are so many hints at Indoctrination or dreaming, that I'd live with this, if they show what comes after. That means the games must continue in order for the reapers to be wiped out and things put right. If the whole series was indoctrination from the time Shepard was hit by the beacon, then it still leaves a lot of questions out there.


Funny, but in a way since Casey Hudson was the project director for the game and the game created fans (us), then in the truest sense we are also the created and he the creator.  Hmmmm, we are rebelling.

Couln't have said it better myself. I truly hope the indoctrination theory is true as well, it makes the most sense and I wouln't even need an extended cut dlc, thats enough closure for me right there. I would just be waiting for the next dlc or game that continues where the ending left off.

[3DandBeyond]

magnetite wrote...

I bet there's a large number of people who are too busy having fun and not worrying about the ending. When it comes to gaming in general, the people who want their voices heard are in the minority.

Actually, any game dev worth their salt views silence as less than great.  They don't create fan sites in order for people to remain quiet.  And, as I stated, they did say (I think Casey Hudson said) they wanted people talking about this game for a long time.

As consumers, we actually have an obligation to ourselves and our money to speak out when things are crap.  Mostly, in this series we got our money's worth to an extent.  But, the replayability value (something always touted by devs) is lacking.  And in this game replayability should be really high up there.  Again, this is not good for the game so it is not good for the devs or for business.

They have indicated that there was more to come (DLC) for ME3 even before the EC was announced and before fans went wild about the ending.  That usually tends to mean money from DLC.  But, as a company if you want me to put out more money then at least you must make a good faith effort not to insult my intelligence especially in a game series like this. 

Games take you along for a ride.  You want them to bring you home at the end of the ride.  If instead they drop you off on the outskirts of town with no way home and no clue where you are, they do still owe you something.  Companies that want more of my money know that.  I'm not telling them how to end the game, but things I'd like to see and conclusions I would like.  If they get that from most similarly compelled to complain fans, then they should realize something isn't quite right with the way it ended.  And, as yet we have had no explanation from them as to what we just did not get about the ending as is.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 16 avril 2012 - 02:32 .

[Theronyll Itholien]

I'm gonna post this again, because I hate BioWare for not understanding the basics of storytelling and the importance internal consistencies.

Ridley Scott shames BioWare with a comment about his upcoming movie Prometheus. Read this:

"With science fiction you have the opportunity of being able to do anything you want, and it's up to you to not do anything foolish or silly or daft, or non-credible." What he says next is what BioWare somehow failed to grasp. "Within that universe, you have to stick to your own rulebook."

But you be proud with the clusterf*ck you wrote, BioWare. You be real proud....

[Netherspin]

jeweledleah wrote...

pardon - Keepers resieve the signal, not send it.  you are right about that.  however, you are still going with Reapers being manipulated, glorified Loki mechs.  which basicaly means all this time, Shepard was wasting time, fightning the wrong enemy.  and Catalyst who at the time supposedly didn't know that this sycle and Shepard was "speshul"  just lets things slide instead of ACTIVATING THE DAMN CITADEL HIMSELF AND ALLOWING REAPERS TO COME THROUGH ON SCHEDULE. aptly illustrated by this image media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/3/2632/catalysttrolling.png

I have to accept the crucible, as tacked on as it is (they litteraly handwave its discovery, they are building this piece of technology BLIND, without knowing that it does or how it works, instead of trying to build more, largescale Thanix canons for one...), becasue the whole damn game is about buying time and resources to build it.

but if the boy is aware and is an AI - it neuteres Reapers.  if the boy is just a fail safe VI  who knows how to activate the crucible, what the hell is with the on button being "shoot the tube"  and why must Shepard jump into a magical beam  and how the hell do those otpions just get built that quickly anyways (keepers are good, but even for keepers, it takes time to build things, fixing bulkheads takes them time, nevermind complex devices like that) or you mean they were already there, just waiting.  so what.  those sycles were just an experiment to see how long it takes silly organics to get this far or something?  remember, catalyst says that CRUCIBLE changed it.  untill Crucible docked, it was business as usual for the god child. so it took him what.. minutes to BUILD new solutions?

the whole thing is riddled with holes, but bringing the star child into it as someone who controls the reapers and the crucible makes the whole thing a complete FUBAR. 

is it still fixable though in a way that might make a majority of people happy, including those hell bend on tragic sacrifice?  yes.  yes it is.  the easiest way would be to get rid of the damned child (or if they MUST keep him - turn him into central citadel VI or something, rather then reaper controler) and keep crucible a hidden weapon it had seemed to be, instead of a magical off button with three equaly silly settings.

We're back at the same reason, the reapers don't rebel against the catalyst. They don't know he exist. He doesn't control them or influence them in any way, he simply created them and let them do their thing. Opening the citadel would reveal his existence to the reapers and make them question their paradigm. Could they have created the citadel without knowing they also created an AI more advanced than themselves? No, logic would have that the catalyst created them, and that will according to the catalyst himself inevitably lead to the reapers rebelling against him.

The solutions aren't built in a rush, they were allways there. The crucible involves the catalyst as a key part - mind you the catalysts existence is kept hidden from organics, so why would they build their last hope around it? They wouldn't - the catalyst isn't the failsafe of the reapers, the crucible is the failsafe in case the reapers fail. Plans leaked covertly by the catalyst himself somewhere down the line of cycles in the realization that the reaper solution will proberbly not work forever. This also explains why the catalyst knows how to activate the crucible and what it does.
Indeed the "shoot the tube" onbutton seems out of place at best, but I can give Bioware this in the spirit of having 3 different dramatic deaths for Shepard, and few things are as dramatic as walking in to a sea of flames. It's not a good way to go about it, but I can see why they did it.

Modifié par Netherspin, 16 avril 2012 - 02:46 .

[DangerousPuddy]

If you're listening, look at all the feedback from virtually every fan as well as the time we put in writing huge paragraphs of feedback. Add to the fact that lit professors and writers illustrating how broken, inconsistent with the themes of the game and universe the ending is.

How can it be artistic integrity when it copies another piece of work (Deus Ex) um, plagarism...

How can it be artistic if it breaks the narrative cohesion within a span of 5 minutes?

Ugh, I just don' t know anymore...

[Mandalorian9]

YO DAWG I HEARD YOU DON'T WANNA BE KILLED BY SYNTHETICS

SO I MADE SOME SYNTHETICS TO KILL YOU EVERY 50K YEARS
SO YOU WON'T BE KILLED BY SYNTHETICS