23455 réponses à ce sujet

[Thanatos144]

LiarasShield wrote...

again you are trying to compel us to accept flawed logic and the breaking of characters how they have acted thee entire way through the triliogy I can't accept that that would be like luke automaticlly attacking and killing all the rebels simply because he was bored

I am not compelling crap I just explained things whether you wish to except it is up to you not me.

[LiarasShield]

omg dude replay mass 1 and 2 and pay attention to the crew how they stay by you how they fight off the collectors how they stay around to pick you up off the collector base how even liara gave his or her body to cerberus so they could repiece shepard back together this is not a crew that would automaticlly abandon you again are you blind or do you not pay attention?

[LiarasShield]

at this point it isn't even the ending you just I don't know I guess you played these games with a blindfold on thats the only way to really explain it

[LiarasShield]

that or perhaps you registered someone elses account with those games and maybe watched a few youtube videos so that you think you have more knowledge then the players who actually played all 3 games or 2 out of the 3

[Thanatos144]

LiarasShield wrote...

omg dude replay mass 1 and 2 and pay attention to the crew how they stay by you how they fight off the collectors how they stay around to pick you up off the collector base how even liara gave his or her body to cerberus so they could repiece shepard back together this is not a crew that would automaticlly abandon you again are you blind or do you not pay attention?

I see still hooked on the reason they are all hauling butt out of there.
Nothing I say is going to change your mind on that. Maybe the DLC will
help you but I doubt it. You had expectations that the game did not live
up to and I doubt the extended cut will help that.  IO mean it could
just as simple is do we kill all the crew on the hopes that Shepard is
alive? Heck could be many things. None of which will be excepted if I put
them forward so I am not gonna even attempt it.

[improperdancing]

Netherspin wrote...

Following this topic for a few days has brought me to a realization.
While there are indeed a few whose main problem with the ending are the logic iregularities such as character placement (Crew being in London when Normandy returns to Sword, then suddently on Normandy when it abandons Sword - Anderson somehow getting ahead of Shepard even thou he says he enters the beam after Shepard) - and some are upset that their choices didn't matter at all in regards to the ending, even thou that would be an asbolute first for a Mass Effect or even Bioware game.
What the vast majority of the players here want is a neat glittering silk bow of an ending where the reapers suddently die and everybody else lives happily ever after. While this is as valid a complaint for Mass Effect as it is for 2012 (movie) or Harry Potter and the Halfblood Prince (book) the answer to the complaint - that they stand by the artistic vision - is as valid an answer.

Now Bioware has shown you that they are listening - they've extended an olivebranch in the form of this extended cut DLC they're no doubt working on this very minute.
Think of what your christian buddy down the street would say - "God answers every prayer, but sometimes the answer is "No"". This holds true for Bioware as well. Fans says "Give us a less confusing ending" - Bioware says "Give us a few weeks, well make free DLC to explain it better". Fans says "Change the very premise of the ending and make it rainbows and flowers"... Bioware has quite clearly said "No" to that one. These games are art, there's no way around that - not art in the traditional sense, but art nontheless, and Bioware stands by the artistic vision presented by their writers (as they should - or the best writing team in the buisness will be forced to quit to retain their professional integrety).

I couldn't disagree with you more.  Who here actually wants an ending where the Reapers suddenly die?  No one.  Actually, that's the ending we already got and everyone hates it.  What we wanted was an epic battle with the Reapers.  Win or lose, we didn't want a deus ex machina bomb that kills the Reapers instantly.  We wanted Shepherd to rally all sentient life in the universe for a common cause in an attempt to break the cycle and win their futures.

Good writers don't introduce the device that will finally kill the antagonist of an entire series in the final chapter, a device that was never alluded to, referenced, or in existence in prior chapters.  Take Lord of the Rings, for instance.  How absurd would those books be if the concept of destroying the ring in Mount Doom only came up in the third book, while in prior books it was simply assumed to be impossible to destroy?  It would invalidate the events of the two previous books.  That's the exact approach BioWare took with Mass Effect 3.  Liara magically found a device to destroy the Reapers at the beginning of the final game, and as a result it felt cheap and un-earned. 

I for one would much rather have had an ending where the Reapers won, with humanity and the other alien races succumbing to the inevitibility of the Cycle, than the ending that we got.  Provided, of course, that Shepherd at least got to go out shooting.  I also would have accepted a Renegade-style ending where Shepherd lived, but lost everything he cared about in the process.  Or a Paragon ending where Shepherd sacrifices himself so that his friends and loved ones can live.  Really, anything that actually made sense and properly followed the events of the previous games (and the events in Mass Effect 3 itself) would have been better than what we got.

I think the main problem with the supporters of the ending is that they assume we all want a happy ending.  I couldn't possibly care less about having a happy ending.  I know that's not true of everyone, but it's certainly true for me.  What I want is an ending that actually fits the series that BioWare has built.  Mass Effect was a series built around one man (or woman) willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done.  It was a series about building relationships with crew members of various races and backgrounds.  It was a series about uniting old enemies and destroying old grudges. 

And all of that was invalidated in the last ten minutes of the series.  That's why people are pissed.  It's not about wanting sunshine and rainbows.  It's about wanting the ending to the war story BioWare was telling, not the ending to The Matrix Revolutions that they shoveled in at the end.  War stories can end tragically.  They often do.  But they can't end with a holographic kid spewing paradoxial bull****.

Hell, I don't even think it's about the lack of choices at the end.  I know that's what a lot of people bring up, and they are rightfully angry, as BioWare promised as much.  However, I think it's about the fact that the only choices presented to us all suck.  None of them lead to any semblance of a satisfying finale, and all of them seem to counter every theme the entire series was based around. 

Modifié par improperdancing, 18 avril 2012 - 02:47 .

[LiarasShield]

shepards crew basically was thee embodyment of no one left behind sortive like how our military policy is today they wouldn't have left shepard or the rest of the fleets during the final battle otherwise they wouldn't have shown such great and up and beyond loyalty in the previous games

[zarnk567]

Thanatos144 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

in this case I guess you could compare thanatos to either the illusive man or the advanced ai trying to control us to accept flawed logic or breaking of characters but I'm sorry unless I get shot in the forehead or get drugged out to point where I can barely stand then I can't do it I'm sorry

They didn't break character. You just imposed your expectations on the
story.  As for the reading part I say this cause most sci-fi story uses
a twist of something news to conclude a ending. Sort of like how Paul Atreides  uses the spice to see the truth.

............. Yes, alot sci-fi epics use twist endings... but those twists had some kind allsion to them throught the story.... besides a random blurb on some random planet and a brief sentence from a V.I..... Bad writing is bad writing., espicially when they pull a deus ex machina out for their twist with no build up to it besides what I have already typed.

Modifié par zarnk567, 18 avril 2012 - 02:45 .

[Thanatos144]

LiarasShield wrote...

that or perhaps you registered someone elses account with those games and maybe watched a few youtube videos so that you think you have more knowledge then the players who actually played all 3 games or 2 out of the 3

Actually I have Masseffect 1 on the PC and Masseffect 2 on both PC and PS3. i have extensivly played them and do understand them quite throughly. Yet it matters little to this crowd. Hey it isnt like they have never left Shepard for dead right?

[LiarasShield]

Thanatos144 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

omg dude replay mass 1 and 2 and pay attention to the crew how they stay by you how they fight off the collectors how they stay around to pick you up off the collector base how even liara gave his or her body to cerberus so they could repiece shepard back together this is not a crew that would automaticlly abandon you again are you blind or do you not pay attention?

I see still hooked on the reason they are all hauling butt out of there.
Nothing I say is going to change your mind on that. Maybe the DLC will
help you but I doubt it. You had expectations that the game did not live
up to and I doubt the extended cut will help that.  IO mean it could
just as simple is do we kill all the crew on the hopes that Shepard is
alive? Heck could be many things. None of which will be excepted if I put
them forward so I am not gonna even attempt it.

it isn't even expectations it is how the characters have always acted you did not play these games then you have registered someone elses account because no you' personally are not getting the fact that shepard crew would not abandon him or her otherwise you would've payed attention during the collector base and the fight with soverign but you know what keep trying to delude everyone else I doubt they will buy it just like I don't

[3DandBeyond]

Thanatos144 wrote...

Well I tried to drop knowledge on you all and as normal get called a troll. Perhaps ladies and gents you all need to take a good long look in the mirror to find who the true trolls are.

Hopefully, my last direct comment to you.  You truly need to expand your thinking.  You didn't drop knowledge on anyone-in order to accept what you call logic all of the plot holes would require buckets of mortar to fill.

We must decide to change every known variable we have already defined in all 3 games in order to accept and explain how the endings play out.  But, at the same time, we cannot use new knowledge gained within the game to demand other choices from the star kid.  You say he's fast at thinking and changing things up (we are stupid because we don't know how fast computers are), so why can't your character protest the 3 choices and suggest others based upon his/her experiences and sacrifices?  I guess it isn't that fast after all.

You really need to get real and explore all the plot holes and try to understand what they are.  Up till now you've just accepted things and then filled in the blanks to fit.  But, there are way too many holes.  And don't insult our collective intelligence by saying we just don't understand.  I understand completely. 

You don't get that futility completely shuts off any good feeling/replayability of these games.  If the ending is about futility, then it's futile for me to play it ever again.  And that is what we have now.  You go play the games again, all the games, and see just how much things change for you and then try and tell me it isn't all futile.


Yes, people do focus on Joker running and no, no matter how much you try to fill in the blanks, he would not do this.  Your teammates would not do this.  And why would he and the Normandy have to leave if the explosion is controlled?  Since by your estimation of the plot line, a lot of the fleets would be ok, then why wouldn't the Normandy?  Oh well the controlled explosion isn't so bad, but the dang shockwave is.  But, still it isn't that bad, but it is.  Given that the Normandy was or had to be near Earth to be able to magically transport your LI and your teammates that were near the beam on board, why wouldn't the shockwave have been catastrophic to Earth?  Oh wait, I know, I know, maybe it was or no, wait, it was a controlled shockwave. 

If you have to work oh so hard to explain the ending to such a story to fill in obvious gaps then the story was not told so well.  I have no problem with some mysteries at the end of some stories, but I invested far more in this one and I became a part of it through my Shepard avatar.  I am not up for a mysterious ending where I have to cheapen it by supposition.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 18 avril 2012 - 02:53 .

[LiarasShield]

In other news I wonder what they will add in multiplayer perhaps that plasma gun that javik uses lol

[Thanatos144]

zarnk567 wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

in this case I guess you could compare thanatos to either the illusive man or the advanced ai trying to control us to accept flawed logic or breaking of characters but I'm sorry unless I get shot in the forehead or get drugged out to point where I can barely stand then I can't do it I'm sorry

They didn't break character. You just imposed your expectations on the
story.  As for the reading part I say this cause most sci-fi story uses
a twist of something news to conclude a ending. Sort of like how Paul Atreides  uses the spice to see the truth.

............. Yes, alot sci-fi epics use twist endings... but those twists had some kind allsion to them throught the story.... besides a random blurb on some random planet and a brief sentence from a V.I..... Bad writing is bad writing., espicially when they pull a deus ex machina out for their twist with no build up to it besides what I have already typed.

I really have to get this macina game everyone is ****ing about. How
you all didn't expect a odd ending from a square enix game boggles me.
But still. You didnt like the ending. Thought it was written poorly.
Fine. they dont see it that way. Seems you are at a impasse. They are not
going to be conjoled into doing something they see as wrong. The rest
is up to you. Stay or go.

[darkway1]

Thanatos144 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

in this case I guess you could compare thanatos to either the illusive man or the advanced ai trying to control us to accept flawed logic or breaking of characters but I'm sorry unless I get shot in the forehead or get drugged out to point where I can barely stand then I can't do it I'm sorry

They didn't break character. You just imposed your expectations on the
story.  As for the reading part I say this cause most sci-fi story uses
a twist of something news to conclude a ending. Sort of like how Paul Atreides  uses the spice to see the truth.

.........why the hell was Illusive man even present at the ending.......what,he sneeked in via the back door I guess......nope he was present because it's the end,a sloppy way to conclude the Illusive man story in my opinion.

[LiarasShield]

you know I'm glad some of them can accept the ending what pissses me off though is that they personally can't see the flaws in the ending and of the final game it's self that is what pisses me off it is almost like they closed their eyes to the other 2 games and like i have said before you can like the ending but don't insult our intelligence for the reasons we don't like the ending

[improperdancing]

Thanatos144 wrote...

zarnk567 wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

in this case I guess you could compare thanatos to either the illusive man or the advanced ai trying to control us to accept flawed logic or breaking of characters but I'm sorry unless I get shot in the forehead or get drugged out to point where I can barely stand then I can't do it I'm sorry

They didn't break character. You just imposed your expectations on the
story.  As for the reading part I say this cause most sci-fi story uses
a twist of something news to conclude a ending. Sort of like how Paul Atreides  uses the spice to see the truth.

............. Yes, alot sci-fi epics use twist endings... but those twists had some kind allsion to them throught the story.... besides a random blurb on some random planet and a brief sentence from a V.I..... Bad writing is bad writing., espicially when they pull a deus ex machina out for their twist with no build up to it besides what I have already typed.

I really have to get this macina game everyone is ****ing about. How
you all didn't expect a odd ending from a square enix game boggles me.
But still. You didnt like the ending. Thought it was written poorly.
Fine. they dont see it that way. Seems you are at a impasse. They are not
going to be conjoled into doing something they see as wrong. The rest
is up to you. Stay or go.

Do you really not know what deus ex machina means?  lol

[zarnk567]

Thanatos144 wrote...

zarnk567 wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

in this case I guess you could compare thanatos to either the illusive man or the advanced ai trying to control us to accept flawed logic or breaking of characters but I'm sorry unless I get shot in the forehead or get drugged out to point where I can barely stand then I can't do it I'm sorry

They didn't break character. You just imposed your expectations on the
story.  As for the reading part I say this cause most sci-fi story uses
a twist of something news to conclude a ending. Sort of like how Paul Atreides  uses the spice to see the truth.

............. Yes, alot sci-fi epics use twist endings... but those twists had some kind allsion to them throught the story.... besides a random blurb on some random planet and a brief sentence from a V.I..... Bad writing is bad writing., espicially when they pull a deus ex machina out for their twist with no build up to it besides what I have already typed.

I really have to get this macina game everyone is ****ing about. How
you all didn't expect a odd ending from a square enix game boggles me.
But still. You didnt like the ending. Thought it was written poorly.
Fine. they dont see it that way. Seems you are at a impasse. They are not
going to be conjoled into doing something they see as wrong. The rest
is up to you. Stay or go.

*face-palm*................ Deus Ex Machina is not a game..... it's a plot device used by writers......

[LiarasShield]

if shepard wasn't mindless and chose to fight against the ai and sacrificed him or hersel to save the galaxy and if the crew was destroyed or stranded in space with the other fleets I would've gladly accepted that or you no what dont even try to explain the reapers motives and just go to the sacrifce moment where shepard does personally make the choice to do so instead of having him or her forced into these choices and let the crew remain loyal the way they have always been wether they are destroyed or stranded I don't give a damn at least no characters would be broken and it would still make sense

[Thanatos144]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

Well I tried to drop knowledge on you all and as normal get called a troll. Perhaps ladies and gents you all need to take a good long look in the mirror to find who the true trolls are.

Hopefully, my last direct comment to you.  You truly need to expand your thinking.  You didn't drop knowledge on anyone-in order to accept what you call logic all of the plot holes would require buckets of mortar to fill.

We must decide to change every known variable we have already defined in all 3 games in order to accept and explain how the endings play out.  But, at the same time, we cannot use new knowledge gained within the game to demand other choices from the star kid.  You say he's fast at thinking and changing things up (we are stupid because we don't know how fast computers are), so why can't your character protest the 3 choices and suggest others based upon his/her experiences and sacrifices?  I guess it isn't that fast after all.

You really need to get real and explore all the plot holes and try to understand what they are.  Up till now you've just accepted things and then filled in the blanks to fit.  But, there are way too many holes.  And don't insult our collective intelligence by saying we just don't understand.  I understand completely. 

You don't get that futility completely shuts off any good feeling/replayability of these games.  If the ending is about futility, then it's futile for me to play it ever again.  And that is what we have now.  You go play the games again, all the games, and see just how much things change for you and then try and tell me it isn't all futile.

  Did I answer it ??? Nope . You know why? cause it was your honest opinion and not as closed off as most. My mind is open. Maybe more than
most. I just dont see things the same.


This is the ending
we have. It isnt going to change massively. So the question your going to
have to ask yourself is can you live with it? please try to not use
melodrama. I really dislike the  bioware you betrayed me and I will see you destroyed! Posts
that unfold in here. If you are that worked up over a game maybe you
need to find other things to do for while. No I am not saying you are
one of these people.

Modifié par Thanatos144, 18 avril 2012 - 03:01 .

[LiarasShield]

I could handle that bittersweet ending that makes sense that is not what happend here

[LiarasShield]

LiarasShield wrote...

if shepard wasn't mindless and chose to fight against the ai and sacrificed him or herself to save the galaxy and if the crew was destroyed or stranded in space with the other fleets I would've gladly accepted that or you no what dont even try to explain the reapers motives and just go to the sacrifce moment where shepard does personally make the choice to do so instead of having him or her forced into these choices and let the crew remain loyal the way they have always been wether they are destroyed or stranded I don't give a damn at least no characters would be broken and it would still make sense

This is a bittersweet ending I could live with because it would make sense and everybody would still remain true to themselves I could accept that

Modifié par LiarasShield, 18 avril 2012 - 02:58 .

[3DandBeyond]

LiarasShield wrote...

you know I'm glad some of them can accept the ending what pissses me off though is that they personally can't see the flaws in the ending and of the final game it's self that is what pisses me off it is almost like they closed their eyes to the other 2 games and like i have said before you can like the ending but don't insult our intelligence for the reasons we don't like the ending

It isn't that they can't see the flaws.  It's the fact they do see the flaws and they try to explain them away as if they do make complete sense.  It's like if I have a discussion with someone over a baseball.  I say it's a baseball.  The other guy says it's a horse.  I explain why it's a baseball.  It's round, has stitching, gets hit by a bat.  It isn't alive, and so on. And the other guy says "well, it could be a horse if..it had 4 legs, breathed, neighed, had a tail, hair, and looked like one."  All I can keep saying is it isn't a horse, it's a baseball.  By now, the guy has convinced himself because he wants it to be so and he wants to be right, that it is a horse after all.

I've watched a lot of interviews with folks that attempt to explain why they like the ending and it most often boils down to fans have no right to ask for a change and companies should remain true to their art.  They rarely address the guts of the problems.  They talk about loving explosions-ok, I love them as well.  Ok, great business model, ignore your fans and never adapt to your demographics.  Go with that.  Companies actually have to live in the real world and work toward profitability.  I own a business where I create things.  If I only ever create what I personally like, I won't sell anything because I have a market of one.  I also write.  I do understand the need to be true to one's art, but you must be faithful to your fans as well.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 18 avril 2012 - 03:05 .

[Thanatos144]

zarnk567 wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

zarnk567 wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

in this case I guess you could compare thanatos to either the illusive man or the advanced ai trying to control us to accept flawed logic or breaking of characters but I'm sorry unless I get shot in the forehead or get drugged out to point where I can barely stand then I can't do it I'm sorry

They didn't break character. You just imposed your expectations on the
story.  As for the reading part I say this cause most sci-fi story uses
a twist of something news to conclude a ending. Sort of like how Paul Atreides  uses the spice to see the truth.

............. Yes, alot sci-fi epics use twist endings... but those twists had some kind allsion to them throught the story.... besides a random blurb on some random planet and a brief sentence from a V.I..... Bad writing is bad writing., espicially when they pull a deus ex machina out for their twist with no build up to it besides what I have already typed.

I really have to get this macina game everyone is ****ing about. How
you all didn't expect a odd ending from a square enix game boggles me.
But still. You didnt like the ending. Thought it was written poorly.
Fine. they dont see it that way. Seems you are at a impasse. They are not
going to be conjoled into doing something they see as wrong. The rest
is up to you. Stay or go.

*face-palm*................ Deus Ex Machina is not a game..... it's a plot device used by writers......

Oh thought everyone was talkinf bout the game Deus Ex the human element. My bad.

[LiarasShield]

3dand again they make the big giant assumptions again that alot of the fans are mad because it was a sad ending not because of plotholes or breaking of characters or introducing a new characters with flawed logic that tries to explain the reapers when their is no need for it and forcing shepard to make one of his or her choices instead of him or her deciding that pretty much the ai and joker abandoning the fight when it would never happen are the two sequences that either make no sense or would never happen if these two things were fixed then yes I can accept shepards death or the crews for that matter but it isn't a awesome bittersweet ending it is a bittersweet ending that makes no sense and leaves the player hollow at least the ones that have feelings are devoted to the characters and can see the problems

[LiarasShield]

so no it isn't because it is bittersweet it is because it makes no sense and having characters do stuff they would never do and trying to explain the reapers way of thinking when it was uneccessary and dind't hold true to the lore