23455 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

Thanatos, please watch this video to understand what people dislike.


These are not irrational thoughts. Yes, people do want happy endings partly as the logical conclusion to their choices, but their choices could also have led them to less than rosy endings and people are willing to accept that. The thing is the promise of the games along the way is that both are uniquely possible or should be.  Will some people never accept anything but a happy ending? Sure, that's possible. So what? The much larger group of us just wants the end to conform to what we were given before-it goes so far off track it is not funny. Do I want a happy ending as a possibility? Yes, I've said so repeatedly. So what? It's not out of the realm of possibility nor is it even out of the realm of reasonable given the Shepard gasps sequence we already can get at the end. But, one tiny gasp is only the promise of a possible happy ending.

The reality of it all is that I am damned sick and tired of all the sadness in the world. When all my entertainment does is offer me more of the same then no I am not happy. Sometimes, sickeningly sweet can uplift a generation, just as Star Wars almost singlehandedly uplifted movie makers and moviegoers. It was super sappy at the end, but we all bought into it? Why? Because we needed it at that moment in time. We need it now, too. But sure it'd be fine with me if others have the option of their depressingly sad, soul sucking everything (or at least Shepard and friends) dies option. I'd never play to that ending, but great for you if you would. I also never choose some characters for my love interest, but you might choose them. Oh joy, real choice.  I want a happy as well as a sad choice-that does make for replayability.

These games have always been about the characters on your side. The video link I posted shows just what happens at the end when the starkid becomes the character focus. Shepard can't talk back, can't use that interaction we have all used throughout 3 games. Shepard and the player are removed from the story and all my friends don't even matter at the end. They aren't even fully represented so I have no idea where they are or what happened.

This series made us care about 3d cartoon images on a screen-pixels that formed personalities. My opinion is how could they take all that away so abruptly at the end? It isn't sad, it certainly isn't happy, it is devoid of all feeling but WTF.

That being said, there are very powerful images with wonderful music that in and of themselves do create some emotion. Particularly, where the reapers are destroyed-the music helps to set the tone, but these games were character driven.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 18 avril 2012 - 05:36 .

[SkullStrife]

One of the mayor problems with the ending (apart from having 3 bad choices) is not only the "I create machines to destroy you everry 50k years so you wont be killed by machines" ... the biggest problem ARE THE REASONS! he gives... Never in the entire series the Reapers gave a hint about their real reasons for participating in the cycles, their reasons should be far from our comprehension as sovereign said, not a silly "skynet will kill you" explanation... it´s not original and has nothing to do with Mass Effect it really feels like it was imported from other franchises... (Terminator, Matrix, etc...)

And the choices given to us were imported from Deus Ex 1... (merge, control, destroy)

On the other hand Reapers are INDEPENDENT NATIONS, FREE OF ALL WEAKNESS... and HAVE NO BEGINNING, NO END (as sovereing say) they are INFINITE... so clearly they shouldn´t be a mere Boy´s tool to "save" organics... the powerful overlods being reduced to nothing

[SurfyBridge]

Ok, this is the first time I have ever posted on a gaming forum so bear with me! Bioware keep saying they want feedback about ME3 and I do actually feel strongly enough about it to throw in my personal 10 cents.

Let me say first up I haven't seen/played the endings - and at no point do I intend to. I made the decision to spoiler it for myself to judge whether I really needed to play multiplayer to get the endings I wanted for my Shep (that's a whole separate issue about the game for me I won't go into!). I read the info available online, read some more and then just sat stunned for a while trying to figure out how any of it was relevant to any of the decisions/choices I had made over the course of the 3 games (over several different playthroughs). It appears I could have done a 360 with any of the so-called major decisions throughout the story, and NONE of it would actually end up having any real impact on the outcome. I don't mind sad endings, characters dying or leaving in games if it's down to choices that I made along the way - that just makes me interested to play through again to try to do things differently each time! Unfortunately I just can't see that with any of the options in ME3. They seem to render everything up until that point completely redundant. It feels as though we were never really in control of the outcome at all, and that for me is the biggest problem.

I take on board the points re: artistic integrity and I do not believe that it should be utterly sacrified to please everyone. However, neither should it take absolute precedence over the hopes and expectations of those of us who have put so much time and affection into this game. My various Shepards should have died, lost loved ones, lost the war, lived happily ever after, whatever but all based on the choices I made during the game. Instead, my very personal gaming experience will be shoe-horned into a very impersonal, ambiguous, apparently nonsensical and frankly limited selection of endings - NONE of which I believe my Shepard would actually have considered for even 2 seconds. And then I still don't get to find out how any of the endings that are available to me affect the galaxy and individuals within it afterwards!!

The Mass Effect series has given me many many hours of pleasure and enjoyment over the last few years thanks to the hard work and vision of many at Bioware. It is for that reason that after I get further through the game and confront TIM, I'll turn off my console and leave the rest of it alone. I do not want to see Bioware's endings for my Shepard as if I did, I honestly don't think I would ever want to play ME1, 2 or 3 ever again. For me, the current endings appear to render much of what made the rest of the games great, largely irrelevant. This is the only solution I can come up with that will allow me to retain any of the affection that I have for the games - I know it's not a good decision, but for my Shepard it's the best one and probably the most difficult one I have had to make while playing this series 

Modifié par SurfyBridge, 23 avril 2012 - 09:52 .

[3DandBeyond]

Thanatos144 wrote...

Gave enough time to the rage trolls. Enjoy your state of faux betrayal I am done. I have told my piece and no longer wish to waste my with this issue. Like it or dont who cares. If you dont play it so what? It isnt a big loss.

Hmm, it actually is a big loss in reality.  Bioware and EA have the chance most game devs don't get.  They created a game which taps into people's raw emotions.  They get to see the depth of what they did.  Yes, a lot of it is in the negative for now.  But along with this deep insight into our most base feelings, they have the opportunity to bring us back, to recapture that consideration we have seen throughout 3 games.  They can do what they do best and create this story, the way they've always done.  Remembering the plot, remembering the relationships, and remembering that to us when we play the game, it is truly like we become the Shepard.  Yes, it's a game and I haven't lost my grip on reality.  But, it's that it's always been a great game that was meant to pull you in.  I feel like I was just set aside at the end and I get to watch, not participate even when I know something is not right.  They can change that.

[Kalundume]

I do not know if BW even reads that thread, but I wanted to indicate to Bioware one serious storyline/lore problem with Mass Effect 3 endings with respect to the overall Mass Effect : the realism of the game.

Mass Effect is a series that takes place in the future of our own, real world, as imagined by Bioware: it is clearly outlined in the game storyline and its codex in all 3 games.

It is one of the strongest elements of Mass Effect, since most of SF worlds are either not linked to the real world (Star Wars) or positioned in a very far timeframe (Foundation of Asimov, Dune of Herbert), thus diminishing immersion and investment of the spectator.

The above axiome means, that Bioware imposes on itself the limits of real world, unless waived by the game lore introduced during the game (eg. description of FTL, Eezo and biotics which are based on non existing physical laws), thus “space magic” should not be possible (breathing in non breathable environment, uncontrolled atmospheric reentry from space without any consequence, appearance of the party members on board of a spaceship in the environment and time frame that does not seem compatible with their transfer there, changing all organics into organic/synthetic hybrids, etc.).

The fact that game takes place in a real world, and in a timeframe, that is relatively close to our times makes it closely related to the real world interpretation, and cannot be considered as interpretable as allegory, symbolism or whatever “speculation for everyone” means (2186 … it is only 174 years in future, if we look back 174 years we are in 1838 … the world was not so different than now on the philosophical or moral grounds). Now, what I mean by this ? two things:

- axiom of impossibility of Organics and Synthetics coexistence being the main argument of the Catalyst: in the real world interpretation, similar axions existed in the past, mostly in the totalitary or fundamentalist ideologies and religions. I see at once one good example: Joseph Stalin, responsible for death of millions of people justified his human crimes with “aggravation of the class struggle along with the development of socialism”. Thus to suppress it, the sheer repression “needed” to be used. While it does not shock me that the “reaper made” Catalyst advances a similar, ridiculous thesis, the lack of Shepard reaction to it is very unsettling.

- the “green” synthesis ending reflects inacceptable MORAL RELATIVISM, as it accepts the compromise with the ultimate evil. Whole series of Mass Effect was about defeating the reapers or at least stopping them. While “technically” it is what green ending does (Reapers are pacified because the galaxy races actually satisfy their main desire), it assumes that the galactic civilisations go over all earlier Reaper’s genocide crimes – they trade through Shepard’s decision their “humanity/alienity” for survival. Considering so strong link of ME series with real life (the same world, not so much far in future…), such choice is MORALLY CONDAMNABLE and absolutely INACCEPTABLE as a position. The green ending also violates the galactic races and stains them: it forces a fundamental change upon every sentient being in the universe without any other justification than survival … then remember that Husks are also “Alive” and what Edi discussed with Shepard in your own game (about reapers prisoners prefering to die than to submit... that happened also a lot in the real world: see 2WW story, concentration camps stories from Europe).

In real life the green ending never happens: in 2WW was pushed to the final victory and the responsible were condemned. One would think that the story of Stalin is different: not so much, soon after the Cold War started, finished by the fall of the system. The “green” ending situation inevitably ended in the new conflicts in the real world, whenever something is imposed by force, it is rejected.

The green ending existence in ME3 can be only accepted under two conditions: the possibility to reject it (as all other 3 endings imposed by the starchild against free will of Shepard) and the explanation/cleaning of the whole “space magic” stuff inconsistent with the “realism” of Mass Effect universe. The same concerns “organics vs synthetics” axiom.

[LiarasShield]

like I said no matter what they will only think we hate endings because it is sad instead of the flaws we point out and it is really frustrating

[LiarasShield]

I think 3dand darkway blazer and maybe 1 or two others are the only decent ones here that are like me explaining why we dislike the endings because of the flaws and plot holes not because of the overused assumption of that we think it is sad

[3DandBeyond]

@Kalundume,
This is a big problem I have as well with the synthesis "choice". It's something that has been used as an idea to deal with problems for as long as I can remember. There was once even a Time cover that showed what it would look like if all races were assimilated into one. It's the point that we will never all get along until we are all one race and one culture. And, yes that could be seen as the end of evolution because it is the stagnation of culture of unique experience and it is a childish way to give into an adult problem. It's the "I give up because I don't know what to do and I don't want to try" non-decision.

The more mature, yet messy choice is to try to get along, but we are not given that option. I don't meant getting along with the reapers, but with synthetic life. This requires work, perseverance, intelligence, care, consideration, understanding, and all those other big adult words that just basically mean it can take time but be oh so worth it. Synthesis is the absolute cowardly choice-actually, an easy choice. But, a stupid one.

[LiarasShield]

yup indeed you're right on the mony 3dand gives this man a prize

[darkway1]

LiarasShield wrote...

like I said no matter what they will only think we hate endings because it is sad instead of the flaws we point out and it is really frustrating

......nah.....the free DLC that's coming isn't being produced because we are sad,it's to address holes in the story.........the DLC it's self  highlights that there are known issues.

Modifié par darkway1, 18 avril 2012 - 05:53 .

[zarnk567]

Kalundume wrote...

I do not know if BW even reads that thread, but I wanted to indicate to Bioware one serious storyline/lore problem with Mass Effect 3 endings with respect to the overall Mass Effect : the realism of the game.

Mass Effect is a series that takes place in the future of our own, real world, as imagined by Bioware: it is clearly outlined in the game storyline and its codex in all 3 games.

It is one of the strongest elements of Mass Effect, since most of SF worlds are either not linked to the real world (Star Wars) or positioned in a very far timeframe (Foundation of Asimov, Dune of Herbert), thus diminishing immersion and investment of the spectator.

The above axiome means, that Bioware imposes on itself the limits of real world, unless waived by the game lore introduced during the game (eg. description of FTL, Eezo and biotics which are based on non existing physical laws), thus “space magic” should not be possible (breathing in non breathable environment, uncontrolled atmospheric reentry from space without any consequence, appearance of the party members on board of a spaceship in the environment and time frame that does not seem compatible with their transfer there, changing all organics into organic/synthetic hybrids, etc.).

The fact that game takes place in a real world, and in a timeframe, that is relatively close to our times makes it closely related to the real world interpretation, and cannot be considered as interpretable as allegory, symbolism or whatever “speculation for everyone” means (2186 … it is only 174 years in future, if we look back 174 years we are in 1838 … the world was not so different than now on the philosophical or moral grounds). Now, what I mean by this ? two things:

- axiom of impossibility of Organics and Synthetics coexistence being the main argument of the Catalyst: in the real world interpretation, similar axions existed in the past, mostly in the totalitary or fundamentalist ideologies and religions. I see at once one good example: Joseph Stalin, responsible for death of millions of people justified his human crimes with “aggravation of the class struggle along with the development of socialism”. Thus to suppress it, the sheer repression “needed” to be used. While it does not shock me that the “reaper made” Catalyst advances a similar, ridiculous thesis, the lack of Shepard reaction to it is very unsettling.

- the “green” synthesis ending reflects inacceptable MORAL RELATIVISM, as it accepts the compromise with the ultimate evil. Whole series of Mass Effect was about defeating the reapers or at least stopping them. While “technically” it is what green ending does (Reapers are pacified because the galaxy races actually satisfy their main desire), it assumes that the galactic civilisations go over all earlier Reaper’s genocide crimes – they trade through Shepard’s decision their “humanity/alienity” for survival. Considering so strong link of ME series with real life (the same world, not so much far in future…), such choice is MORALLY CONDAMNABLE and absolutely INACCEPTABLE as a position. The green ending also violates the galactic races and stains them: it forces a fundamental change upon every sentient being in the universe without any other justification than survival … then remember that Husks are also “Alive” and what Edi discussed with Shepard in your own game (about reapers prisoners prefering to die than to submit... that happened also a lot in the real world: see 2WW story, concentration camps stories from Europe).

In real life the green ending never happens: in 2WW was pushed to the final victory and the responsible were condemned. One would think that the story of Stalin is different: not so much, soon after the Cold War started, finished by the fall of the system. The “green” ending situation inevitably ended in the new conflicts in the real world, whenever something is imposed by force, it is rejected.

The green ending existence in ME3 can be only accepted under two conditions: the possibility to reject it (as all other 3 endings imposed by the starchild against free will of Shepard) and the explanation/cleaning of the whole “space magic” stuff inconsistent with the “realism” of Mass Effect universe. The same concerns “organics vs synthetics” axiom.

There is the problem they broke the "suspesion of dis-belief" and when that happens people start to pick up on the other problems in your writing. Most people will over look most things but when you introduce things that come out of no-where and have nothing to support them besides two sentences throught the whole 3 game series you have a problem...

Take MGS4, Hideo Kojima used "nano-mechines" to explain almost all the events in MGS2 or anything. I had a problem at first.... until he explained just where they came from and how they were implemented, hence the reason MGS4 had some of the longest cut-scenes in the series. So he could properly explain them and keep people in their suspension dis-belief about his universe, which is why when Big Boss came back in the end I did not really care. Cause had explained how in this "universe"  that could happen. If he had not I would of been like ..... much like I was with the ME3 ending....... 

[Kaelef]

Shep only seems to survive in the "red" ending. I guess this means ME4 will take place in a low-technology, no-synthetic-life, no-traveling-between-distant-star-systems future?...

Maybe this is where they tie ME into Dragon Age?!!?!

Modifié par Kaelef, 18 avril 2012 - 05:51 .

[Nardur]

Been reading Thanatos' replies, and just to clarify, the group of fans who don't like the ending are not complaining about the lack of a happy ending (i.e. Shepard survives) per se. While we would have liked to have seen Shepard reunited with his friends and LI, its not a dealbreakeer.

If BW wanted Shepard to sacrifice himself to defeat the reapers, fine, no problem. The problem was how this conclusion was implemented and written. Its as if Casey Hudson just told the lead writer to gloss over the ending because BW couldn't be bothered to put a little more effort into it. The inconsistencies in the ending with the rest of the story and games is evidence that BW just didn't seem to care, as if they were so fatigued from the past 5 years that they just decided to quickly wrap it all up.

I can appreciate the emotion BW seemed to try portray in the ending (i.e. flashbacks to Joker, Anderson, and Shep's LI as he comes to his demise), but it was overshadowed by how empty the rest of the ending was.

[zarnk567]

Kaelef wrote...

Shep only seems to survive in the "red" ending. I guess this means ME4 will take place in a low-technology, no-synthetic-life future?...

Well considering that the citadel explodes in that ending..... that would mean Shepard would have to survive that, the lack of oxygen in space and the fall through earth's atmosphere..... They placed that easter egg at the worst possible spot.... good luck explaining that one bioware without using IT theory.

[Nardur]

Kaelef wrote...

Shep only seems to survive in the "red" ending. I guess this means ME4 will take place in a low-technology, no-synthetic-life, no-traveling-between-distant-star-systems future?...

Maybe this is where they tie ME into Dragon Age?!!?!

There you go. How can you have subsequent Mass Effect games with no Mass Relays and primitive (by ME's standards) technology? How can Bioware leave all of ME's species stranded like that? It makes no sense!

[Kaelef]

zarnk567 wrote...
good luck explaining that one bioware without using IT theory.

Shep has DRAGON BLOOD!!

[zarnk567]

Kaelef wrote...

zarnk567 wrote...
good luck explaining that one bioware without using IT theory.

Shep has DRAGON BLOOD!!

FUS-RO-DAH

[LiarasShield]

hmm their could be a tie in with dragon age but does that mean space magic becomes regular magic lol and dragons repopulate the earth after its near destruction lol

[Nardur]

The problem with IT is... well what's the point of indoctrinating Shep when its easier for the reapers just to kill him? Why is Shep so valuable to the Reapers that they would rather indoctrinate him than kill him?

[darkway1]

zarnk567 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

zarnk567 wrote...
good luck explaining that one bioware without using IT theory.

Shep has DRAGON BLOOD!!

FUS-RO-DAH

.....I used to be an adventurer like you.....till I took an arrow to the knee.

[LiarasShield]

skyrim reference lmao I used to be commander shepard then I took a advanced ai child to the brain.....

[LiarasShield]

U-u

[3DandBeyond]

LiarasShield wrote...

I think 3dand darkway blazer and maybe 1 or two others are the only decent ones here that are like me explaining why we dislike the endings because of the flaws and plot holes not because of the overused assumption of that we think it is sad

I think the basic assumption that everyone only wants happy, sappy endings is so flawed most don't even address it.  Everyone that I've ever seen post about a happy ending says they want it to be a possibility.  Bioware, to their credit did incorporate a seemingly happy moment that you can get with the Shepard gasps moment.

You and I and the rest of us agree that whether one gets the happy or sad ending we do want it to be in the context of our decisions and we do want to see more of what it means for our Shepards and their friends.  If I die, I want to see that what I did mattered and that my friends cared.  If I live, I want to experience that life afterwards.  And I want to see my friends that are left and mourn those that are not.  I want to see what it all meant and I want to be active in that part of the game as I have been in the rest of the game.  I want to maybe choose if my LI thinks I died and turns to have me stumble into his or her arms or maybe I stagger into view as I realize my LI has given birth to my child.  If I get the chance to go to a bar with Garrus, I want to decide to buy him a drink or let him buy me one, just to make the point.  I'd love choices like that.  Are they sappy sweet?  Yep, but they don't have to be the only choices.

If my choices mean I die, I want my LI to have the chance to say a tearful goodbye-maybe my child comes into view or maybe my LI didn't care so much and is with someone else, something they are both glad I never knew.  I want to maybe pick how I think my friends see me.  If Jack mourns my death but honors my sacrifices and her own, will she just curse at me for not living or will she finally show that vulnerability I know exists within her and break down?  I want to choose how I see her mourning me.  Perhaps Garrus will toast my passing and put a drink on my casket or I will get to choose a scene where Garrus toasts me and drinks both drinks-each time saying words that say goodbye in a way befitting our friendship.

These were stories about Shepard and the other characters in the game.  They were set against the backdrop of some nasty enemies.  It wasn't really even about the enemies, but in the end the game did a 180 and made it all about the enemies and not about the friends/characters.

[sdinc009]

JelleV2 wrote...

I can not even believe I spent as much time on compiling my feedback as I have done. It really shows huw much I have grown to love the trilogy. It took me ~20 pages to be satisfied with my feedback, I hope Bioware appreciates it. I really hope however someone will read it

Not sure if I can even attach a pdf file, so here is the feedback through Dropbox:
dl.dropbox.com/u/23981643/OnTheEnd.pdf

I would like to wish the entire Team the best of luck with the extended cut, I am eagerly waiting what you guys have in store for us!

I read through the enire PDF and would say that this ending would be better than what we were given. I guess my only real problem with this wrap up would be that the Reapers are essentially deflated as antagonists. The story is resolved nicely, but having to explain and then understand the machinations of the villain of the story and then essentially making the villains veiws right and justified is a bit offputting. It almost reverses the the roles of Shepard and the Reapers. That aside it is a well written work and accurately brings the story to a close. Well done.

[darkway1]

Nardur wrote...

The problem with IT is... well what's the point of indoctrinating Shep when its easier for the reapers just to kill him? Why is Shep so valuable to the Reapers that they would rather indoctrinate him than kill him?

The great thing about IT is that it gives Bioware a...... "GET OUT OF JAIL CARD",so to speak.....meaning they have the chance to scrap all the present ending problems and do pretty much what ever they want.......in fact if IT was a reality,everyone was going to hail Bioware/EA as the greatest game developers of all time......it's an amazing idea and keeps the Mass universe alive.....which is what everyone wants........sadly IT ain't going to happen,it's not what Bioware/EA intended.