23455 réponses à ce sujet

[brecon5372]

The indoctrination theory, which many people here put forth, made the most sense to me... but I can't get how things will resolve if the ending was all in Shep's head and none of those choices were "real". I was just left feeling depressed by the ending(s) and confused that it was all for naught... Adding a movie to the end won't help much.

I wanted to finish with the epic battle and kill the reapers. I wanted to save my friends and as much of the galaxy as possible. Then retire to my apartment I won, at Pinnacle Station, with my love and watch the red sunsets, knowing I had ushered in an era of peace and prosperity.

Failing that, I would sacrifice myself, but only if it made sense to the story.

[TrueMadayar]

I want the Mythbusters to research the ending. The intro alone would focus on the plot holes, and I'm even leaving out the cruel genocide part!

"Danger": In the ending of Mass Effect 3, you have to destroy the Mass Relays, and the  Normandy, the big ship they use throughout the series, manages to escape the blast wave of the explosion, either by hitting the relay first, or by normal faster-than-light drive. Now, they CRASH into this totally unknown planet, and escape the ship, and you see one of the crew members with you that were with you down on Earth just five minutes before the Mass Relay explosions, your love interest, exit the ship unharmed. Now the message boards throughout the internet light up with comments, in fact a whole MOVEMENT called "Retake Mass Effect" reject this ending, saying it is impossible to happen that way.

"Walrus": Well, I can understand that.

"Danger": Yeah, me, too. But the makers of Mass Effect 3 insists that the ending makes sense, and they want to explain it later this year.

"Walrus": So we're gonna test if that's even possible.

"Danger": Exactly! There are several myths for us to test: A. Is it possible to outrun a Mass Relay explosion using FTL drives.

"Walrus": Yeah, and if not, can you actually hit a Relay before the explosion, and then not instantly arrive at the other side, but drop out due to the explosion.

"Danger": Right, cause if you arrive at the other side - the Relay there will just explode and wipe you out anyway!

"Walrus": And we should look at the distance between the Relay explosion and your ship.

"Danger": Right, cause you get a head start, but the distance to Earth might be too short. And B. Can you get from London, on Earth, to the Normandy, in only five minutes, despite the Reapers attacking and Harbinger, that big nasty commander Reaper, right on top of you.

"Walrus": And finally, can you land the Normandy in its destroyed state in a way anybody could get out of it alive.

"Danger": Precisely, because in the game it is explicitly stated the Normandy is too large to enter an atmosphere safely!

"Walrus": So, how are we gonna test this?

"Danger": Well, the way I see it, first we have to see what exactly happens when a Relay explodes.

"Walrus": Which means we have to go to the Charon Relay.

"Danger": Right!

"Walrus": Well, off we go.

"Danger": Perfect. Haha, this is gonna be so great.

Modifié par TrueMadayar, 22 avril 2012 - 08:34 .

[Gweedotk]

What kind of effect has this had on Bioware or EA's share values? This negative press has to have some sort of effect, but to what extent? Minor or major?

EDIT: http://www.ibtimes.c...est-boycott.htm

I've always disliked EA, so a boycott of their new MMO (Star Wars: The Old Republic) would definitely have an effect.

Modifié par Gweedotk, 22 avril 2012 - 08:54 .

[chemiclord]

EA has been hemorrhaging in the market for a while... ME3 is merely the latest blow taken to their company.

[ElMuchu]

brecon5372 wrote...

The indoctrination theory, which many people here put forth, made the most sense to me... but I can't get how things will resolve if the ending was all in Shep's head and none of those choices were "real". I was just left feeling depressed by the ending(s) and confused that it was all for naught... Adding a movie to the end won't help much.

I wanted to finish with the epic battle and kill the reapers. I wanted to save my friends and as much of the galaxy as possible. Then retire to my apartment I won, at Pinnacle Station, with my love and watch the red sunsets, knowing I had ushered in an era of peace and prosperity.

Failing that, I would sacrifice myself, but only if it made sense to the story.

This, I want this so much also

[Grammarye]

Gweedotk wrote...
What kind of effect has this had on Bioware or EA's share values? This negative press has to have some sort of
effect, but to what extent? Minor or major?

Google Finance is your friend for this sort of query. Bioware, as a wholy owned subsidiary (or equivalent) of EA doesn't have publicly traded shares any more. EA's share price has dropped since February (high of $19-> low of $15). Most likely the announcement of layoffs within EA coupled with various bits of bad press (Worst Company in America is pretty bad news) has traders spooked. Notably the most recent shareholder transcript was all about the success of FIFA 2012 & Battlefield 3, both shifting more than 10M units, whereas ME3 sales figures are more like in the 3M zone. If, of that, let us extrapolate wildly and suggest that 1M players are annoyed, it's a problem, but not a huge one when they still have 20M players buying sports & shooters.

Modifié par Grammarye, 22 avril 2012 - 09:06 .

[AmstradHero]

liveinabin wrote...

I seriously don't have a problem with the ending. Went for the synthesis option. There was enough inferred there for decent closure, at least for me. Might be fun to see the extended ending they have planned which, no doubt, will just roll call the various characters/races and tell you how they got on in this brave new galaxy. I don't really need it though - feels a bit like the voiceover in Blade Runner to me.
I was overall very impressed with what I felt was a mature ending to a mature (in the proper sense) RPG; an RPG that, from the get go, was strongly concerned with nice big sci-fi questions: What is life? What rights do suitably intelligent machines have?
Given that, the synthesis option (although fed by a great big mcguffin in the crucible) was a nice finish.

I can understand this argument to a degree, but really take a good look at the series. Does anything logically set up the ending as it was posed? What postulations about the inevitably of synthetics always destroying all organic life are there?

Answer:
1) Dying Reaper on Rannoch, which feels slightly tacked on.
2) 1 "dialogue" with Javik, a character delevoped after the game was finished.
3) The ending itself.
ALL of these occur in ME3. None of them occur beforehand.

Then add up the ways the premise on which the ending is based is undermined:
1) Numerous conversations with Legion in ME2
2) EDI in ME3 (and even the call-back to her as the VI in ME1 calling out for "help")
3) Rannoch fighter base morning-war mission
4) Potential reconciliation of Geth and Quarians

The Geth singularly undermine the premise for the ending on multiple levels. EDI undermines it further. That's right, key figures in the game undermine the premise that underpins the "mature" ending.

The ending isn't mature simply by the virtue of coping thematic ideas from science fiction that has explored the same theme of synthetic versus organic life. Virtually all other science fiction that explores this idea does so at length. Furthermore, for the most part, it doesn't feel the need to explicitly hit people over the head and say "AREN'T YOU WATCHING? THIS IS MY THEME."

The ending of ME3 is only mature on the most superficial level - it's attempted to commandeer a mature theme for a big philosophical debate at the conclusion. However, the series that hasn't provided a logical or thematic lead-up to a climax based on that theme. Not only is that not mature, but represents a failure in understanding how to raise and develop thematic ideas or maintain a consistent and coherent narrative.

I expected a mature ending, but one that fit with the rest of the game series, not one that I would expect from a high school student after a term of study on science fiction literature/film/television.

[GIEV DIZ PEEPHOLE AEYR]

still see that we havent gotten a single reply in this thread. just checkin.

surprised they havent locked this thread yet. i sincerely hope they dont.

[OhPa2]

I've been thinking a lot about the ending since my post yesterday. I had hoped I could find some positives. All I can come up with has been said already: ME and ME2 were great. ME3 was good... until the end.
Yes we all had very high expectations but with good reason. Bioware was breaking new ground but had delivered on the first two parts of the trilogy and had momentum.
Did the Mass Effect creative team run out of gas? Was the team down-sized, broken up, or re-assigned before the story was completed? Did corporate bean-counting trump providing a finished, polished, product to a once ardent fan-base? Is EA listening?

[Voodoo2015]

Graius wrote...

Voodoo2015 wrote...

Yeah lets make a ending with an artistic vision....

Picasso's artistic vision, Paintings that make no sense.
So now the artist has to explain his paintings. So we who see it understands that he was drinking when he painted them ..

Do not need an explanation, needs a new ending or more endings.

Artistic vision.... WTF

Let's not liken this to a Picasso. Picasso's work has a technical adeptness, philosophical and internal consistency that this ending sorely lacked.  You may subjectively dislike a Picasso, but objectively speaking his art is coherent, consistent and makes sense in its context.  You can respect it without liking it. The problem with this ending though is that it falls apart at the objective level, rather than simply being unpopular as a matter of taste.

I can respect the artist. But for me the paintings dont make no sence, i needed his paintings explaind to me.
But when i got i explaind it still didn't make sence. Becaurse i know he really could paint why paint this.
That's why I wrote Picasso. but its not about Picasso.

Just about artistic vision.
Explaining a ending that is bad is just to explain why it is bad.

[Xellith]

I dont understand why in a game where the primary game mechanic is dialoge and player choice - you can rip out so much content that all we get is a watered down ME3. You should have used ME2 as a template. You failed Bioware.

Modifié par Xellith, 22 avril 2012 - 09:58 .

[Thanatos144]

Xellith wrote...

I dont understand why in a game where the primary game mechanic is dialoge and player choice - you can rip out so much content that all we get is a watered down ME3. You should have used ME2 as a template. You failed Bioware.

It is called streamlining and actually it was done really well this game. It was to cumbersome and awkward in ME2

[XwebraiderX]

BioWare, if you want a GOOD ending with no decisions up to the player go and watch Red Dead Redemption. Hundreds of gamers retried the scene where Marston dies dozens of times just because they couldnt believe their hero fell, even if they knew they had no freedom of choice. It was perfect, nevertheless. Sheer brillance. Manly tears were shed.

You know what I did when Shepard died? I was angry at your company for producing such a crappy ending. Forgot about ol' Shep after a few seconds. Joker landing the ship in some kind of Eden planet? Well, at least had a good laugh.
Shep breathing if you choose a random end? Wow, what next? Secretly planning ME4? If not, what gives? If you wanna let him die, let him die.

Hell, I know some players that didnt even recognize what colour stood for what ending and just stumbled randomly into a color (as did I). After months of waiting stumbling into a colored beam... Wow... what a freedom of choice. And how different the endings were...

You dissapointed us, BW.

Modifié par XwebraiderX, 22 avril 2012 - 10:34 .

[3DandBeyond]

Grammarye wrote...

(I really hated that child by the way. Every 'dream sequence' I just wanted to find the exit portal that said 'screw this, we've got more important things to do than Baywatch running'. I don't recall Shepard being forced to lose sleep over blowing up Kaidan/Ashley or their ME2 squad, arguably a more personal psychological experience..., and those deaths I as a player cared about)

I loved your whole post, but thought this part just needed to be addressed.  I never cared for the kid, real or otherwise.  On Earth, in dreams, I just felt way more connected to the people closest to me, but felt I was being forced to care about this kid.  I didn't care about him.  And he isn't particularly cute.  There's a trailer that has a little girl in it and she is far cuter (not because she's a girl she is just drawn better).  But, I tended to just try to overlook this irritant, until I got to the Catalyst Kid.  Since then, when I see the "real" kid, I just want to scream that I don't give a rat's ass about him.  Sorry, I don't.

A much better visual in the nightmares would have been some wisps that look vaguely like whatever teammate died or others whose deaths you were responsible for.  I felt no connection to this detached kid.

[Sm00thCr1m1n4l]

To be honest, I just want a happy ending where all of my 6-8k EMS actually win the fight, not destroy everything that has made this suberb universe what it is. The first two games were about overcoming ridiculous odds, why can't the third one be?

[sticknoia]

I would like to state that I believe the Mass Effect trilogy overall to be as close to a masterpiece as a video game can qualify for that high honor.
That said I have a comment about the "Artistic Vision" of the ending of Mass Effect 3.
I was trying to explain my disfavor of the misplaced and terribly out of place ending to a fellow teacher who is not a gamer, but has listened to me praise ME for the last 3 years. Since he is a history teacher I used a history analogy using Leanardo De Vinci..
I explained it like this. Imagine you are living in the 16th century and you have employed De Vinci to paint a picture of your wife, Mona. You would provide the guidance and basic texture desires for you perfect Mona and De Vinci would paint it using his amazing talent as an artist and painter. For months you work together to create your perfect Mona. Finally the painting is almost the masterpiece both your imputs have created. All thats left is for De Vinci to sign his work and put a coat of sealer to protect this wonder. You come back the next day to pick up your finished product and find that De Vinci has had an "Artistic Vision" at the last minute and  has turned your Mona into a Velvet Elvis instead.
I feel that the ending of of Mass Effect 3 was as mismatched and nonsensical as turning the Mona Lisa into a Velvet Elvis.  

[GhostWolf]

Sm00thCr1m1n4l wrote...

To be honest, I just want a happy ending where all of my 6-8k EMS actually win the fight, not destroy everything that has made this suberb universe what it is. The first two games were about overcoming ridiculous odds, why can't the third one be?

I have been giving the ME3 ending a lot of thought, since it is a topic of discussion with many I know, and I have come to two conclusions:

1) Bioware violated the fundamental principle of gaming - all gaming: a game must be winnable, not just concludable. (FRPGs are not movies.)

2) Bioware should require all its developers to watch The Gamers: Dorkness Rising - and test them on it if they have to, to make sure the developers understand it. FRPGs are not about insisting that your vision is adhered to. FRPGs are not dictatorships by design. They are about the interplay between the universe and NPCs you create, and the contributions players bring to that creation.

Modifié par GhostWolf, 22 avril 2012 - 11:31 .

[Godeye_Galatea]

I just wanted a happy ending with my femshep and liara and their child shown on rannoch in talis living room

PLEASE give me at least a happy ending in the DLC, so that I can find peace again. I'm driven by the feeling that something went terribly wrong since the end of ME3.

I haven't lost faith in you bioware guys yet

[zarnk567]

Bioware watch the ending to MGS4..... that's how you end a series. With closure for every character you have come to know and every question you have come to have. Even if it took an hour long cut-scene I GOT MY CLOSURE.

Modifié par zarnk567, 22 avril 2012 - 11:59 .

[XwebraiderX]

Hold the line and help us out with the initiative starting next Saturday - let BW know we are still here:

http://social.biowar...342/11#11613168

Modifié par XwebraiderX, 23 avril 2012 - 12:00 .

[Pelle6666]

If you're still listening; The most important thing is that love interests and other characters are not stuck on that random planet and that we get a way to make Shepard survive. And I don't mean just taking a last breath in 1/2 second.
If you just pull this off then then I forgive you. I mean, the entire series have been circling around character development so why end their stories like this?!

[LiarasShield]

The only way I can see us making any kind of decent resolve against bioware is if we can get one of the fellow writers or one of the staff to be on our side

[Gweedotk]

A straight up new ending would be expensive to develop, and I'm sure EA is very stingy with their money.

While I disagree completely with giving us a complete win, I do think the endings are flawed. The flip from overcoming all odds to defeat portrayed a "there's always a bigger fish" kind of scenario. Shepard can't beat the Reapers on his own terms and I think an ending that allowed such would be ridiculous. There can be no happy ending with the reapers, at least not the kind of happy ending most people have asked for.

I would have liked our choices throughout the game having a visible effect. The cut-scenes should be significantly longer and/or split into segments including everything worked for, all that. If they want to make it an argument of artistic vision then differentiate the endings somewhat and add more to the actual fight.

Other than that I am content. I would have been happier if I could have made Shepard choose between the Alliance and the Council - didn't like reporting to Hackett much. Old bastard could go to hell for all I cared, Shepard doesn't asnwer to anyone but the council... At least in my game.

Modifié par Gweedotk, 23 avril 2012 - 12:57 .

[jcmccorm]

jcmccorm wrote...
I think I'm able to draw a parallel between my feelings towards Mass Effect and another franchise. This one will be a little left field and first, but stick with me.

Garfield was pretty awesome. Comic, cartoon, merchandise. He was popular. But in the end where you find out that he's just a starving cat and that all of his friends and adventures were totally made up, it was supposed to celebrate imagination. But in the end, it was just depressing. "Everything you know is fake and pointless." I simply didn't want to see Garfield ANYTHING after that. They killed the emotional attachment to the franchise.

What I thought was interesting is that Garfield fans had their own version of the indoctrination theory, convincing themselves that it never really happened. Although it was said to be the last cartoon by Davis on his way out the door, the franchise acted like it never happened, and continue churning out new content.

ceebeegeebee.wordpress.com/2007/08/28/garfield-is-dead/

Interesting quote from Jim Davis...

“During a writing session for week, I got the idea for this
decidedly different series of strips. I wanted to scare people. And what
do people fear? Why, being alone of course. We carried out the concept
to its logical conclusion and got a lot of responses from readers.”

I read that as, "Lots of speculation!" 

TL;DNR: Mass Effect left us with the "Garfield has always been alone, starving, and dying in an empty house" ending. Ugh.

[3DandBeyond]

sticknoia wrote...

I would like to state that I believe the Mass Effect trilogy overall to be as close to a masterpiece as a video game can qualify for that high honor.
That said I have a comment about the "Artistic Vision" of the ending of Mass Effect 3.
I was trying to explain my disfavor of the misplaced and terribly out of place ending to a fellow teacher who is not a gamer, but has listened to me praise ME for the last 3 years. Since he is a history teacher I used a history analogy using Leanardo De Vinci..
I explained it like this. Imagine you are living in the 16th century and you have employed De Vinci to paint a picture of your wife, Mona. You would provide the guidance and basic texture desires for you perfect Mona and De Vinci would paint it using his amazing talent as an artist and painter. For months you work together to create your perfect Mona. Finally the painting is almost the masterpiece both your imputs have created. All thats left is for De Vinci to sign his work and put a coat of sealer to protect this wonder. You come back the next day to pick up your finished product and find that De Vinci has had an "Artistic Vision" at the last minute and  has turned your Mona into a Velvet Elvis instead.
I feel that the ending of of Mass Effect 3 was as mismatched and nonsensical as turning the Mona Lisa into a Velvet Elvis.  

Exactly.  Wonderful analogy.