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[AmstradHero]

If BioWare are listening, I hope they look at one thing - the prevalence and popularity of Indoctrination Theory.

The Indoctrination Theory effectively says "The ending was all a dream". This concept is even more universally detested by fans and critics alike than a Deus-Ex-Machina, yet it is deemed to be preferable to many compared to the ending of ME3 as it stands.

BioWare, if you're listening to anything, listen to that. If there is something more to demonstrate how the ending failed not only artistically but also in the experience that it provided to players, then I honestly have no idea what it could possibly be.

[3DandBeyond]

cindercatz wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

This is a cool amv or gmv of shepard and liara I wonder if you all will like it

LOVE it, and there's also this original song somebody did.. I mean wow, I've never seen somebody do this for a game romance. Love it too, very good. ;-)

Two great videos.

[Voodoo-j]

Honestly, the Indoctrination Theory, makes me almost as upset as the ending that is currently in place. The only difference is it make more sense. Who wants to play a game that gives you choices to make, only to find out they were not your choices? If this is the last ME with Shepard, they would need to add so much more to the game for when you are brought out of it. I think too many of us are desperate for a decent ending, we are accepting sub par as well.

Modifié par Voodoo-j, 24 avril 2012 - 11:55 .

[3DandBeyond]

Voodoo-j wrote...

Honestly, the Indoctrination Theory, makes me almost as upset as the ending that is currently in place. The only difference is it make more sense. Who wants to play a game that gives you choices to make, only to find out they were not your choices? If this is the last ME with Shepard, they would need to add so much more to the game for when you are brought out of it. I think too many of us are desperate for a decent ending, we are accepting sub par as well.

That is the main problem with Indoctrination Theory.  It tries to make sense of the crap we've been given, but in and of itself does not create a satisfying ending.  In fact, it isn't an ending at all, because if you make a choice under Indoctrination, what did you just do?  If you are weak enough to have been forced to kill Anderson, a very real, up close and personal killing of someone you cared about, what would you have done to nameless, faceless beings under Indoctrination?  And how can it be believable that Anderson's death was not real, but that the Reapers would allow you to get that close to their "off" button, even under Indoctrination.  There were many chances to kill you.  And neither choice that you are given is particularly good for them.  They seem to enjoy killing, so being sent away isn't satisfactory to them, destruction certainly isn't.  So these can't be real choices if Indoctrination is true.

So, when Shepard wakes up fron Indoctrination if that theory is correct, what point are you then back at in the game?

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 24 avril 2012 - 12:14 .

[twinsfun]

I hope they are listening,fans matter 3 games involved and then BAM right in the face the ending was awful.From the beam on it went sour

[darkway1]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Voodoo-j wrote...

Honestly, the Indoctrination Theory, makes me almost as upset as the ending that is currently in place. The only difference is it make more sense. Who wants to play a game that gives you choices to make, only to find out they were not your choices? If this is the last ME with Shepard, they would need to add so much more to the game for when you are brought out of it. I think too many of us are desperate for a decent ending, we are accepting sub par as well.

That is the main problem with Indoctrination Theory.  It tries to make sense of the crap we've been given, but in and of itself does not create a satisfying ending.  In fact, it isn't an ending at all, because if you make a choice under Indoctrination, what did you just do?  If you are weak enough to have been forced to kill Anderson, a very real, up close and personal killing of someone you cared about, what would you have done to nameless, faceless beings under Indoctrination?  And how can it be believable that Anderson's death was not real, but that the Reapers would allow you to get that close to their "off" button, even under Indoctrination.  There were many chances to kill you.  And neither choice that you are given is particularly good for them.  They seem to enjoy killing, so being sent away isn't satisfactory to them, destruction certainly isn't.  So these can't be real choices if Indoctrination is true.

So, when Shepard wakes up fron Indoctrination if that theory is correct, what point are you then back at in the game?

Honestly.....after all the great writing and development,how the hell did Bioware expect to get away with such a crap ending........I'd rather Bioware admit they screwed up and adopt "IT" because it at least undoes the damage done......or just flat out end MASS3,walk away from it........move on to some thing more constructive like Mass4 or whatever.
Where do we honestly go from here.....just forget and invest in future DLC....NO.....no chance....whats the friggin point.

[sbricca]

3DandBeyond wrote...


So, when Shepard wakes up fron Indoctrination if that theory is correct, what point are you then back at in the game?

Supposing the last 10 min are a dream caused by  attempting to indoctrinate you, if you choice control or synthesis, you are indoctrinated and dont wake up, you are no more Shepard...
If you have good ems and choose distruction you are not indoctrinated and you wake up near the beam, as we have seen (supposed to) at the end, breathing...

But i dont believe in that, that is only an idea

[Archonsg]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Voodoo-j wrote...

Honestly, the Indoctrination Theory, makes me almost as upset as the ending that is currently in place. The only difference is it make more sense. Who wants to play a game that gives you choices to make, only to find out they were not your choices? If this is the last ME with Shepard, they would need to add so much more to the game for when you are brought out of it. I think too many of us are desperate for a decent ending, we are accepting sub par as well.

That is the main problem with Indoctrination Theory.  It tries to make sense of the crap we've been given, but in and of itself does not create a satisfying ending.  In fact, it isn't an ending at all, because if you make a choice under Indoctrination, what did you just do?  If you are weak enough to have been forced to kill Anderson, a very real, up close and personal killing of someone you cared about, what would you have done to nameless, faceless beings under Indoctrination?  And how can it be believable that Anderson's death was not real, but that the Reapers would allow you to get that close to their "off" button, even under Indoctrination.  There were many chances to kill you.  And neither choice that you are given is particularly good for them.  They seem to enjoy killing, so being sent away isn't satisfactory to them, destruction certainly isn't.  So these can't be real choices if Indoctrination is true.

So, when Shepard wakes up fron Indoctrination if that theory is correct, what point are you then back at in the game?

Precisely.
Besides the obvious soiling of Shepard's "human" status which  needs to remain "pure" as not to cast doubt on his or her actions and decisions thereafter.

An attempt at indoctrination is fine though. But again, that means that Shepard CANNOT, MUST NOT accept of the choices that the star-child gave. 

It is, however a way out for Bioware. All they have to do is add in the "fourth" option via paragon / renegade interrupt or heck, as I have mentioned before use the "missing yellow button" option that allows Shepard to say "Wait, I know what this is! You are trying to indoctrinate me...." and then proceeds to fight it, break it and go on to the "real" ending.

Part of the problem is that people are so fixated on that those three choices that they don't seem to understand that there should have been a fourth one all along. 

[_FLANDERS]

In the end when anderson and sherpard make there way to the control panel , the IM man shows up, He has the power to control. and thats what is going on if you listen to him talk. not till shep shot is it over . so when he meets star child he is free of the reapers and can make his way , but they all end the same. this is what needs to be changed. but as of now there is no answer other then we are going to add cut sceans.

[sbricca]

Archonsg wrote...

Precisely.
Besides the obvious soiling of Shepard's "human" status which  needs to remain "pure" as not to cast doubt on his or her actions and decisions thereafter.

An attempt at indoctrination is fine though. But again, that means that Shepard CANNOT, MUST NOT accept of the choices that the star-child gave. 

It is, however a way out for Bioware. All they have to do is add in the "fourth" option via paragon / renegade interrupt or heck, as I have mentioned before use the "missing yellow button" option that allows Shepard to say "Wait, I know what this is! You are trying to indoctrinate me...." and then proceeds to fight it, break it and go on to the "real" ending.

Part of the problem is that people are so fixated on that those three choices that they don't seem to understand that there should have been a fourth one all along. 

I agree, but in this case BW have to re write all the end, they cant o dont want this...it's better find a short way to come out whitout change all. they have to save the face too...(in english "save the face" exists? )

[Masseeffekt]

you have the chance, bioware. the chance to switch "ending sucks" into a "genius ending".
to get mass effect fans back.

how?

one word: indoctrination theory. (ok, two words)

[Archonsg]

sbricca wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

Precisely.
Besides the obvious soiling of Shepard's "human" status which  needs to remain "pure" as not to cast doubt on his or her actions and decisions thereafter.

An attempt at indoctrination is fine though. But again, that means that Shepard CANNOT, MUST NOT accept of the choices that the star-child gave. 

It is, however a way out for Bioware. All they have to do is add in the "fourth" option via paragon / renegade interrupt or heck, as I have mentioned before use the "missing yellow button" option that allows Shepard to say "Wait, I know what this is! You are trying to indoctrinate me...." and then proceeds to fight it, break it and go on to the "real" ending.

Part of the problem is that people are so fixated on that those three choices that they don't seem to understand that there should have been a fourth one all along. 

I agree, but in this case BW have to re write all the end, they cant o dont want this...it's better find a short way to come out whitout change all. they have to save the face too...(in english "save the face" exists? )

Yeah, Saving face in this case would be "covering our ass" with "Artistic Integrity".
Even the indoc theory requires a re-write. You'd get to "start over" where Shepard fell, and fight the "real fight".
So, if they want to go the indoc route, might as well add that fourth option. 

As I mentioned, it is a way out for Bioware. 
Or they can retcon the entire ending and remove star child, redo london. 
Personally, I'd prefer that. 
Why, becuase that whole thing from the time you "charge the beam", could have been the focal point where your "decisions" at the end, on the London campaign, your war assests and your EMS could have all played a part and give you different endings, even take Paragon / Renegade choices into consideration.

But of couse, that would mean COST and loss to the bottom line.

Buy hey, at the moment, I have absolutely no desire to buy any DLCs or other Bioware products, since you know ME3 gave me every reason NOT TO.

[darkway1]

It's a great concept isn't it......buy DLC to re take Omega......and yet at the end of the game the universe blows up....lol....pointless.

[3DandBeyond]

@Archonsg,

I'm with you on the problem being that there was the inability to reject the choices given and to go with an interrupt. If that was the real ending, this would be the only way possible resurrect the abomination that is.

If the ending was an attempt at Indoctrination (all emphasis on attempt, because if indoctrination worked on Shepard, his/her life and legacy would be rendered almost meaningless), then the interrupt again is the only way to salvage Shepard and his/her legacy.

The game lacks that choice that always existed, the choice to reject and find another way. If IT is to be considered (I don't adhere to it for a number of reasons), then the interrupt (4th choice) could be the point at which Shepard shakes it off and what happened in between the time s/he was hit by Harbinger's beam and this time when s/he just "woke up" has been an indoctrination attempt.

It could make sense that Harbinger, being more powerful than Sovereign, was also more efficient at Indoctrination. Harbinger repeatedly assumed instant control over other beings-sure they were already indoctrinated (Prothean Collectors), but it proved capable of quick control. Shepard had had different contact with the Reapers-different from what others experienced, as well as different contact with Prothean artifacts. His/her mind was at once resistent and open to things other people's minds were not-Shepard could make some sense of what the Prothean beacon was trying to "say," but no one else had been so affected. The exact reason why Shepard could make sense of this could be why Indoctrination could happen in a different way and could lead to some different effects from what other's experienced.

But, I do not see any 4th choice (interrupt) as being a choice as we see it, not some additional choice that goes with the 3 we now seem to have. I think of it as a rejection, plain and simple.

Again, if you go with IT, then it's a way for Shepard to shake it off and wake up and be where s/he should be. Maybe it could be something that totally screws up Reaper programming-in the same vein as telling a synthetic that in reality 1+1=3. It might start a cascade effect that leaves the Reapers vulnerable. Enter all those war assets you've been amassing. Shepard awakes near Harbinger, Hammer is at force, and fights to take down Harbinger. Joker and the Normandy attack and defeat a now weakened Reaper. Likewise for a lot of other battles, planetside and in space.

I consider this as making some sense, because if your EMS is high enough the comments on how well you are doing put you at even odds. That means even if the Reapers are not weakened, you have a 50-50 chance at success. Weakening them (causing shields to drop, they are processing new information so are not fighting back), gives you better odds. You get the massive fight we all want, against the REAL enemy, the real thing that haunts our dreams. We could also get some real impressive scenes where we get to use those assets. Thannix cannons matter. And in getting those scenes we also get a clue as to what it means for all those other people out there.

We get to see some of our teammates/friends in action. Jack and the Biotic Kids, and so on.

And it could wipe all distaste for the glow boy from our collective consciousnesses. He wasn't real, never was real, always was an attempt to indoctrinate. And, we wouldn't be locked into making one of 3 choices, or even a 4th choice (such a being wouldn't give you another choice if it was an easy path to destroy the Reapers, without having to send the galaxy to hell). I'd even say that some of this makes sense if you just look at the circular logic of the glow boy. This logic is like something a mind falling apart would think up. We all know it makes no sense even if you disregard all that you've done in the games. You could believe that the created will always rebel against the creator-ok, this is a common theory on what "robots" will eventually do once they achieve full sentience. But, you cannot accept as logic that the best way to deal with this is to destroy the creator before the created destroys the creator. It makes absolutely no sense, so this is like a mind falling apart.

The interrupt would and could even be a renegade or paragon interrupt (maybe if you have high enough r and p)-both choices displayed, you pick what your Shepard would do at this point, and they both could have different consequences. There could even be scenes where the star kid starts to disintegrate along with the scenery around him, where it keeps trying to convince you, and you are given different choices, interrupts or what have you to clearly define the return of your self.  My wish is that my last vision of the star kid be Shepard saying, "You go to hell!" and then a cut to a scene of someone shouting, "Fire!" and someone, maybe Joker, shoots at a Reaper and the Reaper blows up.

And then the true ending begins.

This is one way where I think they could incorporate IT.

If given the interrupt as a way for Shepard to reject Indoctrination, you restore Shepard.  His/her actions do still lead to the destruction of the Reapers.  S/he was not indoctrinated and Shepard even came back from more persistent attempts than anyone before had had to face.  Every resource was brought to bear against Shepard in an attempt to Indoctrinate, but Shepard was able to shake it off.  Because I cannot go with Shepard finally being Indoctrinated after all this time, and it would ruin the perception of Shepard ever after, it's the only way I could see it.


The way I've seen things, I've always seen things, is that Shepard is the Catalyst.  It's Shepard's lifeforce, determination, will, and drive that cause the Crucible to work.  I just wish that had been the case.  That once Shepard gets to the Citadel, then that is what causes the Crucible to change Reaper programming.  Shields down, vulnerable, real fight begins. 

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 24 avril 2012 - 01:58 .

[sbricca]

Archonsg wrote...


Buy hey, at the moment, I have absolutely no desire to buy any DLCs or other Bioware products, since you know ME3 gave me every reason NOT TO.

I think DA3 are going to be a fail because of ME3...

[aprilryan515]

darkway1 wrote...

It's a great concept isn't it......buy DLC to re take Omega......and yet at the end of the game the universe blows up....lol....pointless.

I read somewhere that the Retake of Omega actually was on the drawing board early on.

[darkway1]

sbricca wrote...

Archonsg wrote...


Buy hey, at the moment, I have absolutely no desire to buy any DLCs or other Bioware products, since you know ME3 gave me every reason NOT TO.

I think DA3 are going to be a fail because of ME3...

Its a bit insulting to gamers to see Bioware starting to promote DA3 at this point in time.

[darkway1]

aprilryan515 wrote...

darkway1 wrote...

It's a great concept isn't it......buy DLC to re take Omega......and yet at the end of the game the universe blows up....lol....pointless.

I read somewhere that the Retake of Omega actually was on the drawing board early on.

I bet it was,I think the idea was to let loose a whole bunch of DLC but the reaction to the ending has messed up Biowares plans.....who knows whats in store for the Mass franchise any more.???

[3DandBeyond]

aprilryan515 wrote...

darkway1 wrote...

It's a great concept isn't it......buy DLC to re take Omega......and yet at the end of the game the universe blows up....lol....pointless.

I read somewhere that the Retake of Omega actually was on the drawing board early on.

It was, I believe it's talked about in The Final Hours.  It is probably part of where they were headed with ME4.  I fully believe they have been planning an ME4.  In The Final Hours, they also talked about any new ME game not being a sequel set after the current ME games.  It would take place at the same time or before events of the current ME.  But, this ending renders any Retake of Omega rather futile.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 24 avril 2012 - 01:49 .

[darkway1]

3DandBeyond wrote...

aprilryan515 wrote...

darkway1 wrote...

It's a great concept isn't it......buy DLC to re take Omega......and yet at the end of the game the universe blows up....lol....pointless.

I read somewhere that the Retake of Omega actually was on the drawing board early on.

It was, I believe it's talked about in The Final Hours.  It is probably part of where they were headed with ME4.  I fully believe they have been planning an ME4.  In The Final Hours, they also talked about any new ME game not being a sequel set after the current ME games.  It would take place at the same time or before events of the current ME.  But, this ending renders any Retake of Omega rather futile.

Doesn't a Mass4 set in the past also become redundant as the universe blows up.......save everyone today so they can die tomorrow.

[Grimgaww]

The ending could be lot more simple:

-Space Battle Scenes that showed War Assets in action
- Boss fight with Harby
- Harby down
- Go to the Citadel
- Activate the Crucible
-End Scenes that Reflected your Choices
- Done

No Tropic Island, no colors, no children.

DLC -
Hunting TIM.

-Everyone happy.

[3DandBeyond]

Grimgaww wrote...

The ending could be lot more simple:

-Space Battle Scenes that showed War Assets in action
- Boss fight with Harby
- Harby down
- Go to the Citadel
- Activate the Crucible
-End Scenes that Reflected your Choices
- Done

No Tropic Island, no colors, no children.

DLC -
Hunting TIM.

-Everyone happy.

I assume by no children you mean no star kid, because Little Blue Children, I want a chance at those.

[darkway1]

Grimgaww wrote...

The ending could be lot more simple:

-Space Battle Scenes that showed War Assets in action
- Boss fight with Harby
- Harby down
- Go to the Citadel
- Activate the Crucible
-End Scenes that Reflected your Choices
- Done

No Tropic Island, no colors, no children.

DLC -
Hunting TIM.

-Everyone happy.

-YES...harb endgame fight
-Go to Citadel
-Activate Crucible
-Reapers blow up/stop/go get me some beer
-No relays blow up
-Shepard does not die....unless you pick the shepard dies option

-DLC
-Hunt Tim (Great one)
-Retake Omega
-Dark forces
-Rogue reapers.
-Shepard's evil clone

Mass4.....do what the hell you want....your free to go nuts.

Modifié par darkway1, 24 avril 2012 - 02:06 .

[sbricca]

darkway1 wrote...


Doesn't a Mass4 set in the past also become redundant as the universe blows up.......save everyone today so they can die tomorrow.

Ahahaha yes!
i wouldnt be in their shoes at the moment...


PS: i will never play a me4 sequel, or present with another char <_<

[3DandBeyond]

darkway1 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

It was, I believe it's talked about in The Final Hours.  It is probably part of where they were headed with ME4.  I fully believe they have been planning an ME4.  In The Final Hours, they also talked about any new ME game not being a sequel set after the current ME games.  It would take place at the same time or before events of the current ME.  But, this ending renders any Retake of Omega rather futile.

Doesn't a Mass4 set in the past also become redundant as the universe blows up.......save everyone today so they can die tomorrow.

Yes, it would.  It's kind of like how I view Star Wars 1,2,3.  3 had to be kind of depressing because 4:A New Hope (the original) took place after the Empire and Darth Vader had already taken the known universe.

Same thing for any ME4: the Beginning.  Kind of depressing since you'd do all this stuff and have a star kid looming in your future.  Not playable.