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[Archonsg]

darkway1 wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

darkway1 wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

I rather they just fix this one ending first.
Any and all DLC if there is no reason to play, for an end to get to, is a waste of time. Which essentially how this current ending made me feel.

That the past 5 years, Mass Effect 1, 2 and everything that went before those last 10 minutes was a complete waste of time.
I do not want Shepard to choose any of the three colored suicide choice.

Read the whole post above.....we are playing Mass3 Fantasy Fix........we decided to scrap the end with star child,we went for space battles and stuff...it's shaping up good.....even the fantasy DLC sounds good.:happy: 

Yeah, I noticed. But, if I really wanted a fantasy DLC, it would be a Romance DLC, assuming of course the ending is fiixed and there's a reason to pursue a romance.

It will be in three parts;
1) Main Game. More interactions with LI with deeper conversation and exploration of relationship between Shepard and LI.

2) Final moments / boss fight.
Again more interactions, because it's not just about popping Shepard's thermal clip. Also, have your LI play a larger role in how well you do in "the final fight", call it the lovers bonus or whatever but he or she should be invested in you and thus your well being matters.

3) Aftermath.
Reapers defeated. Shepard lives and...
Depending on LI, more interactions localized to each LI's Specific needs. Tali with her new home, Liara choosing between being a Shadowbroker or life with you, (or in my own head-canon dealing with her injury and life as a mother) Jack with her students and the notion that a family isn't a bad thing...and so on.
 
 

 

I love the idea of having your LI playing a bigger part in the ending.......gives you some thing worth fighting for,some thing more personal other than saving all life as we know it,lol..........given some thought there are a zillion idea's to make the ending to Mass epic and full of emotion,makes you wonder how the hell we ended up with the ending we presently have...............it's like they went out of their way to make the most depressing ending ever.

Say it with me ... "Artistic Integrity" ^_~

[AwefulShot]

Archonsg wrote...


Say it with me ... "Artistic Integrity" ^_~

Arsestic Intergritty...

Was I close?

[Archonsg]

AwefulShot wrote...

Archonsg wrote...


Say it with me ... "Artistic Integrity" ^_~

Arsestic Intergritty...

Was I close?

Yeah. Its been more then a month since I completed the game, 2nd run STILL stuck at Tuchanka. Specifically, Genophage cure. Mordin's sacrifice means crap in the light of destroyed Mass Relays. With Wrex stuck on Earth, other warlords will step up to grab power, rape if they can every fertile female and kill each other off in short order. And that's only on Tuchanka. God knows what else is happening to the rest of the galaxy.

I'll bet it'll be a larger scale of what happens when there is a blackout ... Massive riots and explosion of violence.

[KALCULATED]

 I know it has been all said and done but I must say, I am devastated by the ending. People may say that happy endings never exist or whatever the saying may be, but this is mainly the reason I play these RPG fantasy games. I play these types of games to feel like the hero and feel that heart-warming feeling inside. I eat these happy endings up and although some might disagree with me by saying this but I strongly feel as though ending Shepard's life is no where near a happy ending.
Let's say you have the "last breath" outcome and you are feeling optimistic about the outcome of Shepard; the only way to receive this outcome is by destroying all synthetic lifeforms. All the work that you accomplished in rebuilding the relationship between the Geth and Quarian, all the work that you had accomplished in establishing a relationship between EDI and Joker, and all the work that you had accomplished in Miranda's side-plots are vaporized. Shepard lives but the repercussions just do not constitute as a happy ending. Regardless of your three choices, all three end up in a gut-wrenching yet infuriating way. It really feels like you put all of this work in for absolutely nothing.

This DLC is quite pointless. The developers are simply answering the questions that persisted with the original cutscene. They do not deliver you the happy-ending that nearly every single player has been waiting for. Instead, the developers remain loyal to their ocean of s**t that outraged players - they simply answer the unresolved questions of their s****y, mediocre cutscene they call an ending.

I must also say, the way the developers have executed this ending, makes me never want to play Mass Effect again. I know this sounds a tad arrogant but I think: "what's the point?". The game ends up the same way. I, as Shepard die. Although the ending is intended to be a win, it feels like a major loss in my eyes.

I want the ending to have a similar effect and feeling to that of Mass Effect's 2 ending. I want Shepard to live. I want to fulfill my promise to Garrus and come back alive to be able to share that drink (and continue my romance). I want the synthetic life to remain intact with perhaps being able to destroy the Reapers rather than having them as an "asset" for the future. I want an ending where you've got Anderson's arm around your neck as the two of you are limping to the Normandy in the distance. Just as you and Anderson collapse, you see your entire Normandy squad come running out to save you whilst the beautiful Mass Effect music sets the mood and delivers a new gut-wrenching, happy-teary-eyed ending.

Edit: I read some more various topics on this and had to piece together yet another reason the developers need to redo an ending. If the developers do decide to add in some more DLC other than the extended cut, where would it take place? Now I have heard that the developers aren't thinking of anymore DLC at this point but really, where would they include this? Before the Earth siege? That sounds a illogical and conradicts the game considering the entire play-through is urging you be as fast as possible with making battle plans. "Hang on, folks. Earth is second priority. I need to go do this DLC mission first!"

Modifié par KALCULATED, 26 avril 2012 - 02:12 .

[cindercatz]

3DandBeyond wrote...

So, when Shepard wakes up fron Indoctrination if that theory is correct, what point are you then back at in the game?

To my mind, you'd have to be at the beam just after getting blasted, which means that Illusive Man is not present at all, or if he is, he's somewhere on the Citadel with other survivors. I'd say whichever doctor you don't recruit, the surviving council, a few others should play into that part after the Indoc sequence. And it means that you didn't kill the real Anderson, though he may very well be lying next to you as you wake up, who knows? Could depend on EMS if he's still alive, for example. I think it would be quite cool if your two squaddies you picked to go with you are the ones that greet you as you wake, and got you into cover while unconscious, and then depending on what choice you made during Indoc, you either join them (rejection, destroy if there is no rejection option) for the end to play out, you turn on them (control) and they're forced to take you out, with casualties, EDI might turn on you (destroy, but only if rejection is also an option and you chose destroy instead), say.. Vega might also be indoctrinated (synthesis, as part of the human faction, and I think he's viable since he spent so much time with Shep on earth, with Shep's Reaper skeleton, the same Saren skeleton rebuilt, and he always complains of hearing an inaudible humming sound on the Normandy), and you go from there.

So you have immediate consequences that make sense in the game and offer different paths at the end, all of which are further changed and augmented by all your previous choices that could reasonably factor in and by your troop composition. It just applies the Indoc sequence to the endgame, rather than writing it off entirely or overwriting any previous choices like the current ending does.

edit: sorry about that, quotation error :-)

Edit 2: And, as far as the crucible, if you're not indoctrinated, you and your surviving crew would then all be involved in getting to the real thing aboard the real Citadel, while events during the battle involving everyone not with you (former squaddies, the Normandy, etc.) would interject into scene with cuts, while you radio back and forth, things like that, so you'd still have a few choices to make, even if there's no more running and shooting (depending on how much they want to spend to get it right). If you are indoctrinated, your crew and the rest will attempt to do what they would otherwise, but without you to improve their plight, or potentially with both you (your Shep I mean) and Vega (and other human soldiers, Cerberus, etc.) working against them. Depending on EMS, you and your crew, or the others despite you, would have to make it to the crucible to gain that advantage, through the Citadel, and the fleet would then have to win the battle as well. Depending on EMS, it can fail, go badly, go better, or be highly successful. Then the epilogues.

I want to point out that I don't think failing to save yourself from indoctrination should automatically mean the reapers win. I think that should be entirely dependent on EMS, such that even if your Shepard falls right then and there, your previous efforts can have ensured your victory, by building the coalition and rallying your allies as you have prior to that. So either way, your choices play out, and either way, if you put the effort in, you'll get a satisfying, personalized victory, even if your Shep's not alive to see it personally, you as a player will. And of course, if you choose a path that leads to life, and your EMS is high enough, you still get that reunion with your love interest and little blue children (for my male Shep, at least). And of course, if you want to change your Indoc choice after to see how it all plays out differently, that's what that auto-save is for.

:-)

Modifié par cindercatz, 26 avril 2012 - 02:06 .

[xjmz250]

Voodoo-j wrote...

xjmz250 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Voodoo-j wrote...

Honestly, the Indoctrination Theory, makes me almost as upset as the ending that is currently in place. The only difference is it make more sense. Who wants to play a game that gives you choices to make, only to find out they were not your choices? If this is the last ME with Shepard, they would need to add so much more to the game for when you are brought out of it. I think too many of us are desperate for a decent ending, we are accepting sub par as well.

That is the main problem with Indoctrination Theory.  It tries to make sense of the crap we've been given, but in and of itself does not create a satisfying ending.  In fact, it isn't an ending at all, because if you make a choice under Indoctrination, what did you just do?  If you are weak enough to have been forced to kill Anderson, a very real, up close and personal killing of someone you cared about, what would you have done to nameless, faceless beings under Indoctrination?  And how can it be believable that Anderson's death was not real, but that the Reapers would allow you to get that close to their "off" button, even under Indoctrination.  There were many chances to kill you.  And neither choice that you are given is particularly good for them.  They seem to enjoy killing, so being sent away isn't satisfactory to them, destruction certainly isn't.  So these can't be real choices if Indoctrination is true.

So, when Shepard wakes up fron Indoctrination if that theory is correct, what point are you then back at in the game?

The point you would be returned to is immediately after shepard gets blasted by harbinger. Also that means Anderson wasnt shot by you because that was all inside shepards mind. Hope it helps a little bit :/ (sorry for the half assed answer but im a bit sleepy xD)

A few points -
If your indoctrinated, how do we know anything after that is not a dream as well?
Also if your indoctrinated why would you have any choice all along?

You would just have to take it on faith that anything after waking up is not indoctrination but the act of skaking it alone is a strong enough reason to believe that its actually happening after waking up. At least thats how i feel. If shepard had the will to shake off the reapers attempts at indoctrination then they have no chance even if they wanted to try again. That was their all or nothing last ditch attempt at bending shepard.

And the reason they give you choices during the indoctrination is mainly because if they didnt give you the option to destroy the reapers at all shepard would have figured it out that something wasnt right. You had to have the option to destroy the reapers but be persuaded not to which is what the reapers do all along. They use persuasion to pull you to their way of thinking. So telling you that the geth, EDI, and yourself would die if you chose to destroy them and giving you NO benefits to it was a way of saying nothing good can come of this so choose something else. If you listen to the starchild's broken logic, no matter how broken it is, he still has something good to say about BOTH control and synthesis. So to make it seem like destroy is possible but the worth of three choices is just their way of persuading you.

[xjmz250]

3DandBeyond wrote...

xjmz250 wrote...


The point you would be returned to is immediately after shepard gets blasted by harbinger. Also that means Anderson wasnt shot by you because that was all inside shepards mind. Hope it helps a little bit :/ (sorry for the half assed answer but im a bit sleepy xD)

My question was actually somewhat rhetorical.  I do know where IT says Shepard would be once it wears off.  It's the same place where most people think the game went to hell.  But, my point was if this was IT(big if), there was no ending.  So, an imcomplete game was released necessitating months of waiting (even for those who pre-ordered) to get an ending.  For what reason?  This discussion? 

I know they are finding ways of spinning this so it looks like all this discussion is good. But to create such a monster would mean they drank copious amounts of New Coke and spent way too much time examining how the death of classic Coke worked to Coke's advantage.

We don't know because as yet, the devs have never been participants in this discussion.  The lack of any honest, open debate where they express their reasoning behind this ending exists...nowhere.  So, we are left to grab at straws.

Im absolutely with you that the indoc theory doesnt leave the game with an ending. Thats not really what im arguing. I believe the Indoctrination Theory because in my mind it makes sense. But i want an ending now. Shepard woke up so lets hop to it and kill some reapers. Idk where bioware is gonna take us with the extended cut but as of right now im just leaving it at shepard was fighting off indoctrination and after having to choose the destroy ending beat the reaper's attempts and woke up. so now the story can continue.

And i just want to say that the people that say the indoc theory doesnt make sense because then only one ending is the right choice and bioware couldnt do something like that, its the exact same thing as just moments before when the illusive man is going to shoot anderson. If you dont stop him from killing anderson you have no choice but to die. They didnt give you ways to let TIM shoot anderson and you live happy. You either have to make him kill himself or just do it yourself. They force your hand one way or another. So it is plausible for them to make the destroy ending the only correct one.


Oh and btw,  3DandBeyond i loved the fanfic. I thought it was a really nice way to give everyone a happy ending and it was well written =)

[hanoua]

Epique Phael767 wrote...

 Haven't been able to have a favorite moment yet, my copy seems to be incomplete. For some reason it ends with Joker on some random planet and I'm left with more questions than answers.

yeah me too, its weird lol

[xjmz250]

My favorite moment in the series as a whole... has to be first seeing Legion because i was just walking around exploring a reaper and BAM! i get saved by a geth that CAN SPEAK and he bacame the main reason that i started to care for the geth and became that much more invested in resolving the geth/quarian conflict. Which is also why even though i understood HIS sacrifice it still made me walk away feeling like it was a little bittersweet because EVEN THOUGH i resolved a 300 year issue i lost a close friend that put his people before himself . And my favorite moment that just brought a smile to my face was talking to conrad verner about how weapons now having thermal clips and him just making fun of the need for ammo xD

[hanoua]

theManic wrote...

Going back to read through these comments, I remembered another crying moment: when I purposefully missed the shot and Garrus was so proud of himself, I think that was the moment that I realized that Shepard was going to die (note that this does not mean I predicted how the ending was going to go; I just immediately realized it was going to be bittersweet). I cried there, watching them share a quiet moment right before the storm.

Its funny, me it was when Liara show me her time capsule and I saw the little hologram of shepard and she was telling how much a great guy I was. I just start crying like a baby and I knew that Shepard was probally going to die lol

I was sure that I was going to cry at the end but I was only confuse and angry I just turn off the game. cant wait for the extended cut

[Archonsg]

hanoua wrote...

theManic wrote...

Going back to read through these comments, I remembered another crying moment: when I purposefully missed the shot and Garrus was so proud of himself, I think that was the moment that I realized that Shepard was going to die (note that this does not mean I predicted how the ending was going to go; I just immediately realized it was going to be bittersweet). I cried there, watching them share a quiet moment right before the storm.

Its funny, me it was when Liara show me her time capsule and I saw the little hologram of shepard and she was telling how much a great guy I was. I just start crying like a baby and I knew that Shepard was probally going to die lol

I was sure that I was going to cry at the end but I was only confuse and angry I just turn off the game. cant wait for the extended cut

At this point of time, I am keeping my expectations low. My heart wants it to make it all better, my mind tells me there's just too much bad writing in the ending for just an extended cut to clarify away.

Hoping for more would just depress me further.

[3DandBeyond]

xjmz250 wrote...


Im absolutely with you that the indoc theory doesnt leave the game with an ending. Thats not really what im arguing. I believe the Indoctrination Theory because in my mind it makes sense. But i want an ending now. Shepard woke up so lets hop to it and kill some reapers. Idk where bioware is gonna take us with the extended cut but as of right now im just leaving it at shepard was fighting off indoctrination and after having to choose the destroy ending beat the reaper's attempts and woke up. so now the story can continue.

And i just want to say that the people that say the indoc theory doesnt make sense because then only one ending is the right choice and bioware couldnt do something like that, its the exact same thing as just moments before when the illusive man is going to shoot anderson. If you dont stop him from killing anderson you have no choice but to die. They didnt give you ways to let TIM shoot anderson and you live happy. You either have to make him kill himself or just do it yourself. They force your hand one way or another. So it is plausible for them to make the destroy ending the only correct one.


Oh and btw,  3DandBeyond i loved the fanfic. I thought it was a really nice way to give everyone a happy ending and it was well written =)

Thanks for your kind words.  They mean a lot.  Still working on it, but it's fun for me.

I have seen so much on IT and then people trying to refute it as plausible.  I actually do find it to be plausible and the only way they could keep the ending they have (not 'fix' it) and then make a decent ending.

If everything that happened after Harby's beam is not real, then the world's your oyster.  I mean, it's back to square one kind of.  There's no reason we couldn't see war assets in use, and so on.  And, just because some things don't seem to fit in with IT does not mean a decent writer can't make it fit.  Consider what they are now trying to pass off as plausible and almost anything else would make more sense. 

Shepard could have been indoctrinated "differently".  His/her mind and willpower was unique compared to those that had been known to be indoctrinated.  Shepard's experiences were different.  And, the understanding of indoctrination seriously could not have involved that many subjects or render a complete picture.  Some of it is based on Saren and Benezia.  Well, they weren't human, nor were they even average for their own cultures.  Age could play into it and so on and on and on.  You can make things fit if determined enough.

The way to tie things together need not be complex either.  I posted something earlier on this.  A simple road map, but one that actually would lead to a variety of endings.

[MarcusFrost88]

A well thought-out piece regarding the ME3 ending's abandonment of player choice and the central theme.

Mass Effect 3 Ending: Choices and Theme

Modifié par MarcusFrost88, 26 avril 2012 - 05:16 .

[Jianni]

The premise of the Synthesis ending from the writers seems to be that changing everything to "just life" will create peace.

Are the ones of us who dislike this ending basing our dislike, at the core, on a total rejection of this premise, and will therefore never ever agree on the quality of this ending. After all, humans share pretty much everything except looks and that has been enough for some of us to hate the others for centuries.

So my question is:
Is basing the ending of a series on a premise derived from an easily debatable concept supposed to be satisfactory for everyone?

note: This isn't meant to be hostile. I just don't agree with the premise of the concept and feel like their vision got shoved at me, creating dissatisfaction.

Modifié par Jianni, 26 avril 2012 - 05:52 .

[Reign Tsumiraki]

I'm going to quote KOTOR 2, on you, Bioware. "You hear, but you do not listen."

[S0LF]

the commander has been through so much i think he/she deserves a happy ending with his/her LI.

Modifié par S0LF, 26 avril 2012 - 06:11 .

[Crunchtheist]

Bioware, in order to redeem the ending to your series, the easiest way would be do redeem the ultimate antagonist, because the problems lie entirely within "him".

Basically, what we have here with this supreme A.I.-god-child's motives is an obvious flaw in logic, or at least a total lack of a satisfying or even realistically FUNCTIONAL explaination of them. Harvest organics to preserve organics while doing NOTHING to change or advance the paradigm of finite consciousness struggling within finite parameters to touch/create/rejoin/remember/etc. the infinite, A.K.A. god? That is static existence. It is meaningless. A thing simply remembered/preserved is as good as dead if it does not result in any possibility of change within the system that is preserving it. As it stands, the reapers have NO REAL PURPOSE AT ALL. Any A.I. with "half a brain" would know that... And any A.I. with a brain the size of the citadel would know that nobody that has resisted its forgone conclusion that life must be destroyed to be saved would not accept such flimsy logic.

Consider, instead, an entire overhaul of his motives. If you cannot, or will not do that, then skip this paragraph, because I'm willing to help you salvage the parts you're already in bed with, if that's the case. Let's say for a moment that once upon a time, there was a species that became so advanced that they saw the destiny of all life as ammounting to two distinct alternatives; transcendance, or annihilation. Now, let's say that they deem the possibility of annihilation to be so great that they have to take very specific measures to prevent it, funnelling and limiting the forms in which life is allowed to take. They join themselves with one another via technological conduits to form one conscious form; the catalyst. They set in motion a system that will maintain them indefinitely, while letting them "control" the path of all other life along the way. Their physical body becomes the citadel, the keepers maintain it as cells in an organic system, and all is well. But, they discover the possibilities presented by other co-developing life-forms could include annihilation as well. The mass effect technology which they had developed, namely, the relays themselves, which exemplify the peaks of utility for the mass effect phenomenon; allowing instantaneous travel to any destination within physical space, also allow for unprecedented levels of self-destruction, should they be used improperly, up to and including the implosion of the entire physical universe. So, due to the threat presented by the mere POSSIBILITY of other life-forms developing and mis-using mass-effect technology, they decided to create the reapers for the explicit purpose of eliminating sentient species near the point of attaining the knowledge and intelligence necessary to harness the full potential of the Mass Effect, thus gauranteeing that they never accidentally or intentionally implode the universe or use it to kill the catalyst, who has come to think of itself as the "guardian" persona of the universe. Ultimately, it is misguided in this belief, as any species that attains a level of consciousness similar to the catalyst would naturally come to similar conclusions to the catalyst that reality-terminating paradoxes are to be avoided at all costs; that other forms of life may be allowed to exist alongside it and cooperatively with it, so long as they no longer interfere with or interevene in the developmental processes of these life-forms. Since they were the first, they had no examples by which to follow in determining the course that life SHOULD take, and they became detatched from, insensitive to, and ultimately intolerant of all divergent forms of life that don't adhere to their exact guidlines for "avoiding annihilation"

Ultimately, it was the catalyst's observance of shephard's actions, coupled with the information it gained about the trends and patterns of technological and intellectual progression from the crucible which changed their "doctrine" of life, so to speak. And in the ending, they make this known to shephard, before giving him the choice of what he believes they must now do to attone for their new-found understanding of their abuse of life.

Outcome A: the catalyst is willing to sacrifice its own life and destiny to the one who has shown it that life is far more "wise" than they had ever given it credit for before, in the ability to adapt to new information, even the choice to umake reality.They will deactivate their consciousness and that of all reapers simultaneously (without necessity for a cataclysmic chain of destruction errupting from all mass relays via their own understanding of mass effect technology).

Outcome B: Shephard determines that existing sapient species are not only "not ready" to interact with the catalyst and share all of their advanced information with them, but they would likely be unwilling to forgive them at this time. He sends them back out to dark space to wait for some manner of sign that the existing galactic community is ready to forgive and join with the catalyst, and whatever tthat would entail.

Outcome C: Shephard decides that the galactic community is ready for the renaissance of life that will be brought about by sharing information with the catalyst and cooperating with it to move forward into the unknown future, toward a unified transcendance of all life.

Outcome D: For some reason, Shephard decides to make use of the mass effect technology to unmake the universe. He claims he just wants a "clean slate". with which to determine the course of life in a new universe, as this one was filled with too much wrong and sorrow.










Or, if you want to keep the current "stupid" catalyst, just make an option that Shephard convinces it that its logic is fatally flawed, and that it has become "indoctrinated" by its own erroneous calculations of the "solution to the problem for which it was created" (yeah, that cheesy "the created will always rebel against the creators" one), and it decides to literally pull a Saren and Illusive Man by destroying itself. It doesn't require the detonation of the mass relays either... Or at the very least, humanity can salvage the technology from the lifeless husk of the catalyst. for some reason, the keepers continue to function as normal, even severed from the command signal of the catalyst, and the citadel remains the hub of the galactic community for ages to come.

[Archonsg]

Jianni wrote...

The premise of the Synthesis ending from the writers seems to be that changing everything to "just life" will create peace.

Are the ones of us who dislike this ending basing our dislike, at the core, on a total rejection of this premise, and will therefore never ever agree on the quality of this ending. After all, humans share pretty much everything except looks and that has been enough for some of us to hate the others for centuries.

So my question is:
Is basing the ending of a series on a premise derived from an easily debatable concept supposed to be satisfactory for everyone?

note: This isn't meant to be hostile. I just don't agree with the premise of the concept and feel like their vision got shoved at me, creating dissatisfaction.

Short anwer, No.

For everyone else who wants to know why, read on.


The whole ending, from the minute you start up that shaft of light to the final scene with Joker and your love interest seemingly thinking "Oh great, we get to be adam and eve..." is that the ending is made almost solely as eye candy. Explosions, chase scene, lush paradise all intended to wow the viewer. 

This is also reflected with the synthesis option. At no point did the author stopped to think what it would really mean to fuse organics and synthethics (and visa versa) together. At no point did he (or she or they or just two people) stopped to think what consequences this option has other then that it involves sacrifce, it'll make every thing in the Galaxy a single race (plants, and assumably that smart fridge and toaster oven included right?) because you can't have anything just "synthethic" or just organic anymore otherwise this "illusion of choice" fails. Uhhh, fails more so. It involves a seemingly wonderful solution where the reapers and everyone else will sit by the campfire singing kumbaya.

Anyways, Synthesis firstly is rape at the genetic level. Shepard just decided to rob every being in the galaxy any evolutionary choice. Why? because again, if this solution is to work, there cannot be a divide ever again, of organics and synthethics.

Secondly it is based on a false implication that there will be peace between organics and synthethics now that they are all the same. Star-child at no point said, "there will be peace ever lasting" what it said exactly and this is important;

Shepard asks, "Will there be peace?" 
Star-child : *dodges the question and replies*  "The cycle will end. Synthesis is the final evolution of life. But we need each other."

What this mean, is just that the Reapers AT THIS MOMENT have no reason to kill orgnics since there are no more "organics" but that does not mean it can't come back and kill you later. (give or take 50,000 years) for whatever reason it decides is the next "prime directive" it wants to follow. At the moment, as far as the Reapers are concerned, you synthetics can kill each other, hell wipe each other out, since there aren't true organics any more.

There are other problems with Synthesis of course but your question as stands is based on this premise, that you Shepard took away all evolutionary choice from every being in the galaxy to make all life into one single form, a single framework, is it acceptable without the promise of peace? 

No.

ps: If you have taken the time to read all that, thank you. I hope it'll give you food for thought.

Modifié par Archonsg, 26 avril 2012 - 08:28 .

[cindercatz]

Jianni wrote...

The premise of the Synthesis ending from the writers seems to be that changing everything to "just life" will create peace.

Are the ones of us who dislike this ending basing our dislike, at the core, on a total rejection of this premise, and will therefore never ever agree on the quality of this ending. After all, humans share pretty much everything except looks and that has been enough for some of us to hate the others for centuries.

So my question is:
Is basing the ending of a series on a premise derived from an easily debatable concept supposed to be satisfactory for everyone?

note: This isn't meant to be hostile. I just don't agree with the premise of the concept and feel like their vision got shoved at me, creating dissatisfaction.

It's not peace. It's homogeneity. It's total order. That is equal to death, the lack of change that comes from a lack of new stimulus. Then you only have decay, entropy. So synthesis is ultimate, sure, it's the end.. of all life in the galaxy, basically. That's why it's a non-starter.

Edit: Ok, I've got a great video game reference that applies directly to this. Anybody that's played Oblivion, there's an expansion to that game (great game, greatest dlc of all time to my experience) called Shivering Isles. In Shivering Isles, you take part in the transitionary conflict between two daedric princes (basically deific personifications of particular aspects of nature and psyche, daedra representing those things that bring change, not always nice): Sheogorath (madness, chaos) and Jyggalag (order, eternity). Chaos' cycle wains into Order, then Order, through entropy, falls into Chaos. Sheogorath is in a kind of cyclic conflict with Jyggalag, and the player must take a roll (not telling too much, don't want to spoil it, old as it may be). Sheogorath's realm is one of life and activity, of wild internal division of Mania and Dementia, extremes on all sides pressing influence against the other, but Jyggalag's realm is a place of stone permanence and total order, devoid of life or division.

The Reapers in Mass Effect are kind of like Jyggalag. They pursue a certain permanent order, but allow the balance of chaos for each 50k year cycle, purportedly to keep one side of the organic/synthetic equation from getting out of control and dominating the other (well, synthetic from wiping out organic as they put it, by perversely killing organics, the principle remains). They are the hybrid, static, permanent and unchanging order of the galaxy (who knows, maybe more than one, they do go into dark space, after all, who knows how far?). They do not evolve, do not change, and do not change their minds or their routine. The Crucible then changes the game. Perhaps the cycle can't continue in check, so perhaps the cycle should end. When you choose synthesis, you are choosing that ultimate, final solution, total order, the end of change and evolution, the end of outside stimuli and the change they necessitate, eternal sameness. You are choosing the Reapers' own state, total order, and forsaking entirely chaos and the life that flourishes with it. In Oblivion terms, you're choosing stasis. You're choosing Jyggalag. Entropy follows.

The entropic principle.
There's a theory that, since observable matter is always pushing away at increasing speed (we call that force the universal constant, or dark energy), eventually all matter will be diffuse, will pull itself apart, and the result is a cold, lifeless, order, the universe's death. I'd argue the idea is premature, and we're likely to find that there's a creation source on one side of us, an expanding, colliding, interchanging dark matter membrane on the other (dark matter being arranged in space like a solution that the matter universe exists in), likely flowing from it's own fount, and that supposes it's true that we are not the only universe out there, but there it is. Regardless, as long as there is enough comfortable chaos between matter interacting across all types, energetic reactions and collisions and all manner of reaction to stimuli, which in turn act as stimuli on other matter, etc., there is always change, and that change is the stuff of life, constant evolution to new stimuli. So chaos equals life, order equals death, and the comfortable chaos in the middle equals advanced equilibrium. ;-)

Modifié par cindercatz, 26 avril 2012 - 09:11 .

[sbricca]

Maybe that can help...
http://www.forbes.co...onoff-campaign/

im not optimistic about the EC, but i hope BW are going to use these next months to complete the game without the pressure of their publishers

[Jianni]

I have made alot of points against the endings on these forums, but I can't shake the feeling they have had something planned all along. What has been happening just doesn't feel like Bioware's style. So I say again, I think there is more to this than we know. Anyone else with me on this? It all just feels wrong somehow.

Then again, this could just be hope talking. If they have had something cooking this whole time it would be a masterful stroke IMO and I don't really care who likes it. It would be brilliant and remembered for years.

[cindercatz]

Jianni wrote...

I have made alot of points against the endings on these forums, but I can't shake the feeling they have had something planned all along. What has been happening just doesn't feel like Bioware's style. So I say again, I think there is more to this than we know. Anyone else with me on this? It all just feels wrong somehow.

Then again, this could just be hope talking. If they have had something cooking this whole time it would be a masterful stroke IMO and I don't really care who likes it. It would be brilliant and remembered for years.

Honestly, I believe there was something there originally. Then I think conflicting internal interests (don't wanna get singled out on this by corporate construing anything as an attack, not doing that..) resulted in this sort of fall off a cliff ending that shipped, which as I've said many times, I don't consider an ending at all, nor do I think it was originally concieved as the end or an end, rather a climax. I do think there was more originally there, and I think the outcry has resulted in us getting at least some of that for free when we otherwise wouldn't have. EA's CEO is on record now suggesting ways to get gamers to pay for ammo, with real money, just to make it through a match, after all. And I've read something similar just recently happened with Asura's Wrath. So yes, I think there was more. No, I don't think just shipping what we got was brilliant. Yes, I think we should be glad so many people stood up for their rights as consumers, just to get us this far. And we, all of us, should continue to do so.

Modifié par cindercatz, 26 avril 2012 - 09:20 .

[T.Attwood]

Disco Shep wrote...
@3D
Couldn't have put it better. I was prepared for sadness (I expected my Shep to sacrifice herself) but by the same token I would of been delighted if my Shep survived and I could sit in the warm glow of a job well done, or anything in between! What I didn't expect was to be totally bewildered, deflated and just feeling it had all been a little... pointless.

daveyeisley wrote...
Favorite moment, heh..... too many to really count, but I wont cop-out and will try to pick a few....

Probably the culmination of all my efforts to reconcile the Quarians and Geth. Really positive, made me feel incredible. Love Tali, grew to respect Legion, and even the whole Geth race. Couldn't bear to sacrifice one. So glad there was a way to talk Gerrel down.

@daveyeisley and @Disco Shep. This is exactly the problem that a lot of players are having with the ending. Many people on this forum have said that one of their favourite parts of ME3 was the section on Rannoch, and how it could be resolved. There were options where Legion and the Geth die, and also where Tali and the Quarians die. But there was also another option where (if you had done certain things in the game) you could solve the war without one species being wiped out. This is what so many people have enjoyed about the game. You felt good when you took this option. And this is what is so frustrating about the ending. All options involve a horrible death, and so the player is left feeling empty and disillusioned. Maybe the IT theory is true. Maybe it isn't. But I think that the vague outcome is what is causing so much concern. Maybe if the ending went like this:-

You choose the Red ending. Shepard is caught up in an explosion. The mass effect relays get destroyed. Then, you see Shepard wake up out of the rubble. He manages to contact Hackett. The dialogue goes like this...
Hackett: "Well done, Shepard! The reapers are destroyed. Earth has taken some damage, but we can rebuild."
Shepard: "Thank you admiral. What about my crew and the Normandy. Have you heard from them?"
Hackett: "We aren't sure what happened. They were making a relay jump when the Crucible fired. We lost contact with them after that. It doesn't look good Shepard. The Crucible took out the relays, so finding them is going to be a problem."
Shepard: "What the hell to we do now?".
And then, the game ends and displays the message "Shepards story can continue with DLC".

Using an ending like this would give the player a pay-off, and let them know the Reapers are gone and their efforts over ME1,2 and 3 were successful. But it also lets the player know that the story isn't quite over, and explains that there is more to the story, if they wish to continue with it in DLC.

I think part of Biowares failure with the ME3 ending, is the failure to manage the players expectations. They seem to have gone for "lets make it vague, so it will give the players something to talk about until the DLC is released", but haven't realised that the players expectation of ME3 was to have some kind of ending and closure to a point. If the ending was more like Geth/Quarian resolution, I think people would have felt good about playing the game, and would have no problem continuing the story with DLC (i.e. getting the Normandy and its crew back). But the vague outcome of the game has had the opposite effect. Hopefully the Extended Cut will provide a satisfactory resolution to the game, and give people the pay-off and the desire to continue with the ME games.

Modifié par T.Attwood, 26 avril 2012 - 09:29 .

[Zerox Z21]

Jianni wrote...

I have made alot of points against the endings on these forums, but I can't shake the feeling they have had something planned all along. What has been happening just doesn't feel like Bioware's style. So I say again, I think there is more to this than we know. Anyone else with me on this? It all just feels wrong somehow.

Then again, this could just be hope talking. If they have had something cooking this whole time it would be a masterful stroke IMO and I don't really care who likes it. It would be brilliant and remembered for years.

Yeah, the reason it's not Bioware's style is because two wankers shut themselves in a room and decided it was great without peer review or anything. If you ask me, they should both be fired for such stupid thinking. Even if the ending was good, that's not a good way to run things.

It's not Bioware's style because it wasn't created by Bioware as a whole. It was created by two damn people.

[sbricca]

 I dont think EC will provides the closure we ask for because it is a cinematic video which cant involve all the decision we have made during all three games......
Probably EC will show what happened in the battle during our awesome meeting with starchild, and what happens next...im sure i dont like it...

Although the IT  should be a good way to resolve many problems, i believe BW doesnt accept any suggestion from the fans