On the Mass Effect 3 endings. Yes, we are listening.
#18501
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 03:49
#18502
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:09
3DandBeyond wrote...
Well that's not exactly a profitable business model. I suggested that it isn't. It's up to them how to run their business, but treating diehard fans disrespectfully is not the way to encourage them to return. And it is diehard fans that remain loyal and will buy your stuff. You never, ever, ever take them for granted.
But what if they are taking you for granted ? What if they simply choose to never address your concerns in spite of making a profit-margin ? Is there something morally reprehensible about that ?
3DandBeyond wrote...
Actually, no we were deceived. Not my fault if some fail to pay attention. Promised no ABC ending-got an ABC ending. Promised ending would explain everything-got an incongruous, slapped on ending that explains exactly nothing. Promised ending would be different from player to player, no 2 endings would be alike-got the same basic ending no matter how different our choices along 3 games. Implicitly promised (due to the precedence set in 2.99 games that the ending would follow the story set before it-got, an ending that does not fit with the rest of 2.99 games.
Ok, fair enough, so Hudson and Gamble made phony checks with their mouths ? I agree, deffinitely.
But does a publicity stunt (a bad one), speaks directly of the quality of the game ?
I liked the ending, it is very flawed, and thus it needs tweaking, but apart from Hudson and Gamble's statements, I do not feel deceived at all.
3DandBeyond wrote...
And yes, you are right, they have every right to choose and stick with their ending. It's theirs to make, but when you make something you form a relationship with those that will buy what you want to sell. If you want to sell more things to them, you make something that makes sense to them and try to fit it within your own vision. I can't sell something just because I like it. I need an audience that likes it, too. An author that wants to make money does not write books to sell them to an audience of one. Stephen King writes books at an 8th grade reading level. Not because he doesn't know bigger words, but because he wants the largest audience to buy them. It's not dumbing down, it's just appealing to the type of read an audience wants for his genre. I doubt that he'd say his books don't sit within his artistic vision.
I don't know why you have such an axe to grind, but your acrimony speaks more about your issues than it does about mine.
Friend, don't take this as a condescending attitude, but the "business" angle of your argument keeps hitting the same wall.
You have rights as a consumer, you have the right to complain, but you can't have the right to have a say in work you're not involved, I'm not saying that's what you said, you've cleared that up, but it simply leaves you at a disadvantage when you bring it up continuously.
If it is business as you say, then they have the right to pursue it as they wish, and if they don't, then they have that right too, regardless of wether it's good or bad business in the long run, it's their prerrogative, and that's it.
#18503
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:15
#18504
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:22
That said, I'll be waiting. You made 3 exceptional games, that's why we - gamers - are so invested. We just want you to end it on the same level, that your games were. Exceptional.
#18505
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:30
Never said they don't have the right to do what they want. It is just not a smart business model, nor is it the type of attitude one should or could expect. We as consumers take this attitude as just business as usual and should not.
Yes, if they ignore their customers there is something reprehensible about that. If as consumers we think that's just ducky, then our money and our thoughts are meaningless. Expect trash, get trash, and you have gotten just what you deserve. It's time to say, "enough! The emperor is naked."
You liked a very flawed ending. Ok, how can this even make sense? And other than their statements, you do not feel deceived at all. What? It's ok to be deceived by their statements? That's fine with you? I have a friend that wants to sell his Porshe for $30k. Yes, it looks like a Ford Focus, but it's a Porsche.
And after that flawed ending was pointed out as being flawed, just what did Casey Hudson say? He said that it would not be fixed, but would be explained. And they would adhere to their artistic vision. This indicates that fans are stupid and they have never clarified that.
Well, sorry, but I understand the choices. I understand a lot. I don't know how they got there from all that they've said about the game. And they are not speaking up about their baby.
All of what they have done is within their "complete right" to do. I am saying it's not smart to not take into account what your fans say about your creation and it's not smart to not even acknowledge or indicate you understand what they are saying.
I have taken many management courses over the course of my life. One of the common threads, reinforced ad nauseum was how you deal with unhappy customers. The customer says, "This product stinks." I say, "It stinks, what's wrong." Customer says, "It's ugly and it smells." I say, "it's ugly and smells." Customer, "Yes." I say, "How can I make it better? What can I do to change it or to make you happy if I can't?" This is retail 1.01. This is business. You listen, you validate, you try to make amends. You don't ignore, assert your own claims, and then do whatever the heck you like. Consumers that do not ask for or expect, more will keep getting worse and worse products as companies try to find what is the least you expect for your money.
My mother always told me when you ask for something the worst they can say is "no". But, if you never ask, you don't even have the chance they will say, "yes".
Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 26 avril 2012 - 04:34 .
#18506
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:33
#18507
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:35
LiarasShield wrote...
their are decent reasons for why some fans don't like the ending so keep it civil don't attack others when they try to make a few decent posts you can like the ending but don't insult some of the people who don't because this is the wrong thread to do it in
Which are those today ?
-The ending sucks because Shepard died ?
-The ending sucks because it's not happy ?
-The ending sucks because Joker justifiably bailed out of the fight ?
-The ending sucks because we weren't shown what happens to the characters ?
-The ending sucks because it made us think ?
I wonder.
#18508
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:35
LiarasShield wrote...
ah 3dand I totally agree with I have already mentioned a lot of points earlyer but I'm tired of repeating my self so I'll let you be the voice for me if that is ok?
Ha ha ha! I am so obnoxious though!
#18509
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:35
I like all 3 ME games, but the end of ME3 does not sit well at all when put under scrutiny. The fact it has been put under scrutiny supports the claim that it is a bad ending as it effectively destroys the players 'suspension of disbelief'. A neccessary must for any story.
Modifié par Redbelle, 26 avril 2012 - 04:36 .
#18510
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:36
#18511
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:37
feliciano2040 wrote...
Friend, don't take this as a condescending attitude, but the "business" angle of your argument keeps hitting the same wall.
You have rights as a consumer, you have the right to complain, but you can't have the right to have a say in work you're not involved, I'm not saying that's what you said, you've cleared that up, but it simply leaves you at a disadvantage when you bring it up continuously.
If it is business as you say, then they have the right to pursue it as they wish, and if they don't, then they have that right too, regardless of wether it's good or bad business in the long run, it's their prerrogative, and that's it.
Forums exists to express opinions, and that is what we are doing here...and they maybe listening or not. We are not involved with me3 project, but we bought it and we can say what we are thinking about...
I dont like much that they seems to be blind to the many complains made not only here but in many other sites..but this is their choice and ...their consequences...
#18512
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:40
feliciano2040 wrote...
LiarasShield wrote...
their are decent reasons for why some fans don't like the ending so keep it civil don't attack others when they try to make a few decent posts you can like the ending but don't insult some of the people who don't because this is the wrong thread to do it in
Which are those today ?
-The ending sucks because Shepard died ?
-The ending sucks because it's not happy ?
-The ending sucks because Joker justifiably bailed out of the fight ?
-The ending sucks because we weren't shown what happens to the characters ?
-The ending sucks because it made us think ?
I wonder.
Ok, you really need to look into this for yourself. There are many thoughtful discussions on the topic and you are just trying to provoke. Why, I don't know. You admitted the ending was very flawed.
Do yourself and us a favor and go and watch the understated nerd rage video on youtube. It explains the issues very well. The problems are not just one thing, but many. And we don't need to rehash it for your bitter pleasure.
Your whole tone is not condescending because for me to consider it so, would be to think of you as superior in some way. Your tone is defensive for some reason. Your arguments meaningless and irrelevant.
But, I will address one of your ridiculous assertions-the idea that people only want a happy ending. Untrue. People do want the possibility of one, one that they might have to work to get. But, there are just as many that also want the possibility or probability of a sad one, the everything has been destroyed ending. They figured the choices made along the way would lead up to just such possbilities. And beyond that, yes people do want to see what that means and not in a 15 second cookie cutter, colored cutscene.
Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 26 avril 2012 - 04:46 .
#18513
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:43
Response/ideas for ending:
- I feel like the ending was going to be amazing before Shepard was raised up to another platform and met the "star child", I know that Bioware feels very strongly about not cutting anything but I am just saying that I would.
- Instead the ending plays out very similair to before the "star child moment". Anderson still passes away but his final words are "Tell Kaylee, we did it", Shepard soflty says "I will, sir". Only major difference with this moment is Shepard actually is barely able to reach the terminal and does activate the crucible there before falling to the ground. The crucible disables the reapers, and only the reapers.
- Hacket speaks over comlink saying that Shepard has done it and without a response Hacket realizes Shepard most likely passed away.
- There is a final battle cutscene similair but longer to what is already in the game. Major difference being we see key characters from all three games, where they are in the war, and a quick reaction to what has happened. Whoever your lover is (if one) watches reapers being disabled and sees people celebrating. He or she starts to tear up and smiles.
- Credits. But wait! I am a fan of when the credits is not the end!
- Whoever your companions are on the final mission are seen running towards your body. Different dialogue will occur depending on companions.
- No matter who the companions are one will kneel beside you, checking for a pulse, while the other is off to the side.
- Without playing a previous mass effect game: there is no pulse, shepard has passed away, and there is a service where key companions and your lover speak about all you have accomplished and how shepard inspired them
- With playing a previous mass effect game (I apologize that this one is in greater detail): The camera will follow the companion who is kneeling beside you, finally he or she will say "There is a pulse we are getting Shepard out of here."
- The other companion talks through a comlink asking for emergency personal to be ready at the entry point. The stronger companion carries shepard, while carefully running back the way Shepard came.
- EDI (whether she is with you or not) says she is able to re-activate a portal, bringing you back down to the entry point. though this will most likely overload and deystroy the crucible. the companion carrying you says to do it.
- There is a cutscene of the two companions and shepard being carried down the blue teleporter, above them the crucible is being deystroyed, below them emergency personal are waiting. The companions reach the bottom and a emergency team quickly grabs him and loads him into an ambulance.
- Shepard wakes up in a hospital, there are tubes running throughout Shepards body, he is bandaged up, basically looking like Shepard barely made it out. With you when you wake up is your most used squad mate and your lover. Each character will have unique dialogue until you are able to talk back.
- You are barely able to speak but this is a good moment to fill any lingering questions: "Did we win?", "What happened to the reapers?" "Did everyone make it?" What happened to earth?".
- Once you are finished speaking Dr. Chakwas comes in and says Shepard needs to rest, your most used companion says one final thing to you and your lover kisses your forehead. They leave.
- Shepard turns over to look out a window, it is peaceful. Shepard sees children playing, couples holding hands, people laughing etc.
- We zoom onto Shepards face.
- Renegade final moment: Smirks and says, "Your welcome" blackout.
- Paragon final moment: Shepard sheds a tear and smiles. Blackout.
I hope you enjoyed my quick point form fan fiction.
Bioware, take what you want from this, I know this is probably already late into the planning stages but I hope I help in some way.
#18514
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:45
#18515
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:48
feliciano2040 wrote...
LiarasShield wrote...
their are decent reasons for why some fans don't like the ending so keep it civil don't attack others when they try to make a few decent posts you can like the ending but don't insult some of the people who don't because this is the wrong thread to do it in
Which are those today ?
-The ending sucks because Shepard died ?
-The ending sucks because it's not happy ?
-The ending sucks because Joker justifiably bailed out of the fight ?
-The ending sucks because we weren't shown what happens to the characters ?
-The ending sucks because it made us think ?
I wonder.
Shepard dying was always an option. ME3 waas described as his last story and as a soldier facing an undefeatable foe dying seems to be 'Sufficiently Shepard-like'. I just wish I had a clue if his or her mission of 'Stopping the Reapers', had been acheived cause anything other than the destruction option leaves this possibility open. This was suppsed to be an The End moment.
Any game that has the death of the character isn't going to be 'Happy'. Unless your Raiden in MGS2 but I digress. It comes back to that 'what did Shepard die for'? Shepards mission may or may not have been accomplished depending on what ooption you choose and the consequences of your options are so far reaching that just the chance to see if by going destroy you kill, Reapers, Edi, Geth, yourself and Quarians would sate alot of this debate on the endings. We see no resolution of our choices, Just the same old footage 3 times with a 5% difference of content.
If you think Joker jusitfiably bails then I'd like to hear your character analysis on Joker, and how it leads up to fleeing the war zone.
Seeing what happens to the characters? These were our buddies, some of them for 3 games. Good stories generate connection to characters. It happens,
The ending has made ppl think. But it has made ppl think in terms of 'scrutiny'. Throw that ending into a room full of aspiriong writers learning the science and art of story telling and they will point out that compared to what came before the ending loses it's narrative cohesion.
#18516
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:48
#18517
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:50
Something very similar to what people really want. War assets in use. Ending means something, takes into account what you've done and cared about. Only difference I'd say in that type of thing is that multiple playthrough could lead to same ending as if you played all 3 games, because for some people it's not possible to play all 3.
But, anything that gets rid of the vid kid is great in my opinion.
#18518
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:52
This game made us care about these characters-hated the Reapers, loved who you loved, and so on.
The ending scrapped all of it.
Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 26 avril 2012 - 04:53 .
#18519
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:54
The benefit of animation footage is your imagination is your only limiting factor. We were given 3 similar endings......
#18520
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:56
Tonymac wrote...
I am not so sure I like the idea of just a DLC.
Look - there is only so much you can do with a turd. Brown sugar and maple syrup? Its still a turd. No matter how much frilly letuce and expensive home made bread you heap on, its still just not going to work. There is only so much waxing and polishing that can be done before people look at it, smell it, and walk away.
Bioware/EA needs to get a grip. Step one - recognize and realize that the ending sucks. Its a heaping sloppy stinking pile of terdsauce. Fix it. Do not try to 'add to it' like we are dumb and do not understand - do not polish the terd. Just do it right like you know you should have. Learn the lessons that you apparently had right in ME2: higher EMS = better outcome. In ME2 I could go on a suicide mission and not lose a single soul - IF I did all of the side missions, loyalty quests, got the best upgrades and did my part preparing my ship and crew for the attack on the Collector base. ME2 had the right idea. I could tailor my ending to how I wanted it to go - from loss of all but EDI and Joker to the loss of no one. THATS what it means to have your choices matter! Not some Red, Green, or Blue terdsouffle.
This ME3 idea of - "No matter what you do everything is FUBAR, no matter your Galactical Readiness" is pretty much horrible. Why have Galactic Readiness and EMS if it doesn't matter at all? Its a sham, just like this game is. - and just like the promisses that were made to us. Since Bioware/EA does not care about its fans or producing quality merchandise, I shall go on about my business with that in mind. Its one thing to make a mistake - and its another thing entirely to own it. They refuse to own it, so I guess that means fans don't count.
Very well layed out. I feel the same way. I just do not for one second feel as though they are making a justifiable decision by sticking with their initial ending and just backing it up with more meat and potatoes. I think that's a croc of s**t. You are very right in saying that it feels like the EMS means absolutely nothing.
I made a post earier - a few pages back regarding the ending of ME2 as well. I felt as though that ending was very well done and developers should've done it a similar way. Now that they didn't, this extended cut is a way they can make up for their mistakes even if the FAQ says they will not change it. Why the hell would you not change it? Are you blind? ME2: do every single side/loyalty mission, buy all possible upgrades, yadda yadda - you get the happy ending of your entire squad being alive and well. Do the opposite and your entire squad can die including Shepard. ME3 should be very similar. I am not impressed by the notion of Shepard always dying regardless of the outcome. If you fill your EMS bar to maximum effectiveness, why not have Shepard live? What's wrong with that idea? It makes those who care about your Shepard character immensely happy and will do everything it takes to make him or her live.
As I stated in another post, the feeling I get after knowing Shepard is gone makes me not want to play the Mass Effect series again. Always in the back of my mind I know that I am going to die. You build this strong relationship between you and your character(s). It's just a burden of dissatisfaction that leaves you feeling upset.
Modifié par KALCULATED, 26 avril 2012 - 04:58 .
#18521
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 04:57
#18522
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 05:01
Redbelle wrote...
It would be awesome to see Krogan Halo jumping off Destiny Ascension and landing with Elcor artilary support while Jack and the kids lay down fire/protect the troops. All this while Rachni creep and scurry around the battle field picking off husks as Asari commando's squash Brutes to the size of a grape.......
The benefit of animation footage is your imagination is your only limiting factor. We were given 3 similar endings......
Yes, it would have been so awesome to see Jack's kids using their biotics. And so touching to see previous enemies fighting alongside each other. This would have made me cry even if I'd gotten to some happily every after.
And, KALCULATED, you are so right. EMS meant little if anything.
ME2 took into account way more of what you did along the way than ME3 did. I had to go back and regain Jack's loyalty. If someone died, it was my fault. Not some arbitrary decision.
If you look at the EMS/War Assets thingy, and have a high EMS it says your odds are even. This, to me seems to say, I have just as much chance of beating the Reapers totally as I do in being utterly destroyed. But, it does not mean that at all, because it means exactly nothing.
Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 26 avril 2012 - 05:07 .
#18523
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 05:12
And we can stop there. I think that alone would solve most complaints: simply remove the illogical choice crap, with the illogical, irritating and condescending starbrat, and do what we expected, and get to that mysterious terminal and simply activate the crucuble. It's simple, what was expected and has no outstanding problems. From there, what happens is based off your EMS. And the ending should be and was probably intended to, otherwise why is the number there at all? it's current, single function is no reason for all of that, and the strength of a military fleet isn't really likely going to impact the chance of the individual Shepard, distanced from the battle, living or not, either.Darth Korig wrote...
Because I'm short on time so I will be doing my response in bullet form, there might be someone who has a very similair, and well written response but I do not feel like reading 700 pages.
Response/ideas for ending:
- I feel like the ending was going to be amazing before Shepard was raised up to another platform and met the "star child", I know that Bioware feels very strongly about not cutting anything but I am just saying that I would.[list]
- Instead the ending plays out very similair to before the "star child moment". Anderson still passes away but his final words are "Tell Kaylee, we did it", Shepard soflty says "I will, sir". Only major difference with this moment is Shepard actually is barely able to reach the terminal and does activate the crucible there before falling to the ground-
I got the same feeling, as do most. Everything was peachy up until the blackout and that random, extra platform to the scene of everyones nightmares. Just remove that and, y'know, give us the ending we expected. Just because we expect something, doesn't make it bad, and we can never see exactly how it will be done. And the message would be fine, it didn't need a special ending, the messages of ME have been a running theme through the game. It doesn't need any particular special culmination, and if it does, then your putting the pushing of some meaninful message above the storytelling, which oddly enough is our main interest and where we put our money.
Boy, do I regret pre-ordering and buying the DLC.
#18524
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 05:15
ME3 options and endings as a whole are just not acceptable and regardless of what people say, Shepard dying does not constitute as a happy ending. Sorry, but that's you in a sense. You yourself die a little when Shepard dies... at least, that's what my nerdy-ass self felt like.
Edit: By the way, I too read your fan fiction. I like it a lot. I personally romanced Garrus so my story would have to be altered but just having Shepard alive is why I love it.
Modifié par KALCULATED, 26 avril 2012 - 05:18 .
#18525
Posté 26 avril 2012 - 05:18
I think that the Mass Effect series is one of the best ever made, and seeing as I have played videogames since 1986 I have a significant pool of comparison. Beyond the obvious care and skill that went into the production of every Mass Effect game, they also presented a player with one of the most interesting and comprehensive venues for making meaningful decision in a game, and watching how the consequences of those decisions reverberate for dozens of hours of game play. Just seeing how the choices I made with Commander Shepard were carried over from one game to the next provided a personalized experience that made me and other players feel not just
that we were on a journey with the game’s hero but that we were the game’s hero. It was my choice as a player
that earned the loyalty of my allies, that consigned friends and comrades to victory or death, and that built or destroyed relationships.
It is because I have enjoyed Mass Effect so much that I must say that I am disappointed with how the series ends. My disappointment stems from the abandonment of meaningful player agency as Mass Effect 3 comes to its conclusion. This same player agency was the most unique and defining characteristic of the Mass Effect series, and to abruptly turn away from it at the end and instead construct a “what’s-behind-door-number-three” approach is a use of the letter of the law to violate the spirit of the law. The player still gets to choose one of three similar paths at the end, but that those three choices are in virtually no way contingent upon the choices players made previously. As noted above, this continuity of player choice has been the hallmark of the Mass Effect games.
This last second turn from what was obviously a core design principle not only marred an otherwise stellar game but also damaged my faith that Bioware’s other franchises with similar player agency mechanics will
similarly run to the same fault. At PAX East, members of the design team from Dragon Age 3 proclaimed
that “decision will matter: Yes”[1]. How can I be asked to believe this, however, when the Mass Effect series, which
prided itself on the importance of player choices in the game, undercut this very principle at the end? Additionally, I cannot accept the premise that Dragon Age 3 will avoid this mistake when Bioware currently has the chance to alter the conclusion of Mass Effect 3 to keep it in line with its own design principle, but instead has made a lackluster statement that the Mass Effect 3 Extended Cut DLC will only be “creating additional cinematics and epilogue scenes to the existing ending sequences”[2]. Granted, this offer is better than nothing, but it still does not address the concerns about respecting the player’s decisions. This respect Bioware invites by having made player agency one of its core design ideas. I cannot see how such a skilled team of game developers would have a problem modifying the end of Mass Effect 3 at least to the point where bringing the vast majority of the war assets to the final conflict could open a fourth choice at the end where Shepard rejects the flawed logic and choices presented by the catalyst and decides to trust in the coalition he’s help build to actually win against the Reapers even if it means sustaining heavy losses. Such an option would at least be a return to the concept of meaningful player action throughout the game because that choices would be dependent upon the choice made by the player concerning of much effort he or she put into building up the war assets to defeat the Reapers. The “Synthesis” ending is in the same vein, but ultimately fails because it hinges upon agreeing with the Catalyst, not in the player deciding to stand of fall on his or her own choices.
I understand what Bioware said about their Mass Effect 3 Extended Cut, but I implore them to take this opportunity to change their stance. The fact that this DLC will be free is a gift, and in all honesty I would have paid for it. I will similarly purchase forthcoming Mass Effect DLC because the game is so enjoyable. That being said, if the Extended Cut does not address my concerns about the deterioration of meaningful player agency, then I will have
no faith that Bioware’s other title will avoid the same pitfall. I will not accept promises that my choices will matter if it is made clear that my in-game decisions will be undermined. To that end, if the Extended Cut does not show a return to meaningful player agency then I will not purchase or play Dragon Age 3. Since I stated that you have and will have my monetary support for Mass Effect 3, the most effect way I would have to register my complaint would be to not provide that same support for Dragon Age 3.
I want to be clear in that I am not encouraging a boycott; other people can best decide who to spend their own money. I am not even looking for an apology. I know you love your game with at least as much fervor as the players, and it is in that mutual love for the Mass Effect series that I ask for you to respect the very spirit of the
work you created and instill the players’ choices with the same weight that made us all fans of the work in the first place.
Sincerely,
Tempest81
[1] Gamespot.
“Dragon Age Gets Some New Digs at PAX East 2012.” . 4-11-2012.
[2]
Darklarke. “Mass Effect 3 Extended
Cut.” http://blog.bioware....3-extended-cut/. 4-5-2012.
Modifié par Tempest81, 26 avril 2012 - 05:24 .




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