23455 réponses à ce sujet

[Voodoo-j]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Voodoo-j wrote...

Well I can see.. the Protheans, with their sensory ability towards objects may have possibly learned of the crucible, but that brings to question.

1. They can sense things from objects that were imprinted 50k years ago?
I can see objects specifically imprinted by Protheans, but objects that were not directly imprinted.
2. They sensed the initial plans from the original creators some near infinite time ago?

Seems a stretch but we don't know the extent of how the Protheans senses work.

Yes, you are right they have great sensory powers-hmm then could they not sense what's behind the door?  Ok that could be explained away, it's shielded. 

Not poking fun at you, it's just that so much just needs to be accepted without question in order to justify the ending.  If instead the Crucible did and was known to need to just get together with the Citadel, like the Citadel was some igniter, it makes more sense to me.  But, that the Protheans would have to know that at first I can accept, but then that they'd need to know all the rest, that's a big stretch for me.  If they could see all that then why even fight at all?  It's futile so run off and hide and enjoy the time you have left.

I'm in agreemnt with you, I was just thinking if any of it was even feasible.. 50,000 years is a long time for an imprint that wasn't specfically acted upon. 

Then there is the ruins they found on Ilos,  but it's still a long stretch on how it's been passed down through countless cycles.

[3DandBeyond]

@Voodoo-j,

I think my main issue with it is that unless the Protheans knew the Catalyst would change its mind and give 3 choices, then what did they think it was for? How'd they happen upon the idea? And given the 3 choices, the effort doesn't seem worth the gain.

[Thanatos144]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

LOL I am suppose to be the bitter one? Really not. I haven't been attacking anyone

Calling people trolls, indicating they lack comprehension skills, calling people immature-oh, but to use your words you didn't call people immature often, is attacking.

Yet, I for one have avoided commenting on how sorely lacking you are in writing skills.  I don't want to be the grammar police, but when insulting people if you could just please make your sentences make sense, it would be appreciated.  I wouldn't want anyone to miss the words of wisdom.  If however you don't speak English as your first language, I mean no disrespect. 

That wasn't an attack on you that was a statement of fact that you need to
stop trolling me. You say people are immature I never said so. I said
many of you were acting childish. I was asked my opinion several time
and then called a troll for giving it. Shoot one of you keep talking
about my tone ....Said I was treating you all like idiots. Seems to be
that person reads more into my posts then whats there. YOU and many like
you are never going to be happy so it really doesn't matter. I find it honorable that Bio-ware isn't caving to the few loud complainants  and
sticking to their guns. That takes strength in today's world with all the
freaky entitlement sentimentality that is prevalent in today's youth (no
that doesn't mean child).  Fact is you and many of you didn't expect the
ending and I am guess more than a few don't understand it.....Yes many
have said this with them saying the ending doesn't make sense.  Yes it
does follow the lore of the game it just doesn't follow YOUR idea of what
the lore should be. Yes you bought a game and can if you want complain
about it just as I have the right to say why It was great and why I
think you are wrong.

You see having a contrary opinion doe not mean I am a troll it means I do not let the few loud opinions cloud my reasoning.

Modifié par Thanatos144, 02 mai 2012 - 04:27 .

[Thanatos144]

3DandBeyond wrote...

@Voodoo-j,

I think my main issue with it is that unless the Protheans knew the Catalyst would change its mind and give 3 choices, then what did they think it was for? How'd they happen upon the idea? And given the 3 choices, the effort doesn't seem worth the gain.

They didnt know what it would do cause they never finished it. They didnt even know what the catalyst was.

[jdecker]

Thanatos144 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

LOL I am suppose to be the bitter one? Really not. I haven't been attacking anyone

Calling people trolls, indicating they lack comprehension skills, calling people immature-oh, but to use your words you didn't call people immature often, is attacking.

Yet, I for one have avoided commenting on how sorely lacking you are in writing skills.  I don't want to be the grammar police, but when insulting people if you could just please make your sentences make sense, it would be appreciated.  I wouldn't want anyone to miss the words of wisdom.  If however you don't speak English as your first language, I mean no disrespect. 

That wasn't an attack on you that was a statement of fact that you need to
stop trolling me. You say people are immature I never said so. I said
many of you were acting childish. I was asked my opinion several time
and then called a troll for giving it. Shoot one of you keep talking
about my tone ....Said I was treating you all like idiots. Seems to be
that person reads more into my posts then whats there. YOU and many like
you are never going to be happy so it really doesn't matter. I find it honorable that Bio-ware isn't caving to the few loud complainants  and
sticking to their guns. That takes strength in today's world with all the
freaky entitlement sentimentality that is prevalent in today's youth (no
that doesn't mean child).  Fact is you and many of you didn't expect the
ending and I am guess more than a few don't understand it.....Yes many
have said this with them saying the ending doesn't make sense.  Yes it
does follow the lore of the game it just doesn't follow YOUR idea of what
the lore should be. Yes you bought a game and can if you want complain
about it just as I have the right to say why It was great and why I
think you are wrong.

You see having a contrary opinion doe not mean I am a troll it means I do not let the few loud opinions cloud my reasoning.

But when THEIR sales drop well see who CRIES the loudest  ROFLOL, LMAO

[Thanatos144]

jdecker wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

LOL I am suppose to be the bitter one? Really not. I haven't been attacking anyone

Calling people trolls, indicating they lack comprehension skills, calling people immature-oh, but to use your words you didn't call people immature often, is attacking.

Yet, I for one have avoided commenting on how sorely lacking you are in writing skills.  I don't want to be the grammar police, but when insulting people if you could just please make your sentences make sense, it would be appreciated.  I wouldn't want anyone to miss the words of wisdom.  If however you don't speak English as your first language, I mean no disrespect. 

That wasn't an attack on you that was a statement of fact that you need to
stop trolling me. You say people are immature I never said so. I said
many of you were acting childish. I was asked my opinion several time
and then called a troll for giving it. Shoot one of you keep talking
about my tone ....Said I was treating you all like idiots. Seems to be
that person reads more into my posts then whats there. YOU and many like
you are never going to be happy so it really doesn't matter. I find it honorable that Bio-ware isn't caving to the few loud complainants  and
sticking to their guns. That takes strength in today's world with all the
freaky entitlement sentimentality that is prevalent in today's youth (no
that doesn't mean child).  Fact is you and many of you didn't expect the
ending and I am guess more than a few don't understand it.....Yes many
have said this with them saying the ending doesn't make sense.  Yes it
does follow the lore of the game it just doesn't follow YOUR idea of what
the lore should be. Yes you bought a game and can if you want complain
about it just as I have the right to say why It was great and why I
think you are wrong.

You see having a contrary opinion doe not mean I am a troll it means I do not let the few loud opinions cloud my reasoning.

But when THEIR sales drop well see who CRIES the loudest  ROFLOL, LMAO

Admittedly the bad press of the loud minority seems to have some effect.
But the truth be told it is months after the game was released.....That
alone means fewer game sales so I don't think the the bad press is having
as big of a effect as you are thinking.

[Voodoo-j]

3DandBeyond wrote...

@Voodoo-j,

I think my main issue with it is that unless the Protheans knew the Catalyst would change its mind and give 3 choices, then what did they think it was for? How'd they happen upon the idea? And given the 3 choices, the effort doesn't seem worth the gain.

In the game Pavik said they didn't know what it would do.. but he was the avatar of vengence, so who knows what he was privy to.

[3DandBeyond]

Voodoo-j wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

@Voodoo-j,

I think my main issue with it is that unless the Protheans knew the Catalyst would change its mind and give 3 choices, then what did they think it was for? How'd they happen upon the idea? And given the 3 choices, the effort doesn't seem worth the gain.

In the game Pavik said they didn't know what it would do.. but he was the avatar of vengence, so who knows what he was privy to.

Yeah, nothing too much to go on here.  He admitted he wasn't a scientist, but a warrior.  Just some questions I had for things that make no sense to me.  I can use my imagination and never mind doing that, but when I play a game, I don't want so much of it to be about what could possibly happen or what this might mean when I have nothing to go on.

It never made too much sense that the thing could be built so quickly, no matter how many were working on it, or that it seemed to instantly make sense to everyone.  But, I let that go.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 02 mai 2012 - 05:28 .

[Benchpress610]

@ 3DandBeyond and Voodoo-j, let me interject my thoughts in this discussion:
 
Since ME1 I’ve been always puzzled as how in hell was it possible to defeat a whole fleet of reapers when it took most of the Alliance fleet, plus some asari and  turian ships, to take down just one. And this was only possible after Shepard defeated its avatar/Saren/husk thing, which brought down its shields…Further,  In ME2’s Derelict Reaper mission, EDI stated that “Reapers are impervious to dreadnought fire”. In the ME universe, what’s more powerful than a dreadnought? … Hence, the need for a super weapon which can strip down the reaper’s shields. See where I’m going with this?
 
Fast forward to ME3 when from the very beginning the concept of the Crucible was introduced. It can be debated whether the mere concept of the Crucible is a form of Deus Ex Machina or not,  but it’s reasonable to assume that over the course of several cycles many civilizations have labor to find a way to stop the reapers by bringing down its shields so they can be destroyed. Every cycle has improved this weapon upon each other designs.
 
This is the point where all reason and logic goes to hell in a hand basket… How did the writers make the leap form a perfectly reasonable premise to the whole disjointed concept of the Catalyst/Star/kid? How a contraption that had been developed independently of the reapers became dependent on a reaper construct? Did the organics know how to make it work in the first place? Or did they know about the existence of the glowing child? Because obviously the Crucible wouldn’t work without it. It stands to reason that the reapers must have known the attempts of the organics at building a super-weapon to destroy them. Why didn’t they destroy it first along with all its research and knowledge of its existence?.. I can keep going, but see my point? And it keeps getting more and more convoluted and illogic.
 
It would’ve been simpler that the Crucible was a device which would’ve sent an EMS pulse synchronized to the reapers’ frequency that would’ve brought down their shields, thus allowing the victory fleet to dispose of them. For that purpose it needed a huge amount of energy, and what’s the biggest mass effect engine in the galaxy? The Citadel, hence the Catalyst.
 
The elements for an epic end were there, but for some reason that escapes logic (pun intended) they chose to go the star kid route.   

[3DandBeyond]

@Benchpress610,
Precisely.  Excellent post. The idea that it was dependent upon the reaper kid does not make sense-involves too many permutations of what is known to get you to that conclusion.

It makes more sense that it is some type of real weapon or just a way to bring down their shields. Simple, direct. Cut to fighting against unshielded reapers. Thanix cannon blazing away.

It's ok if it must first make nice with the Citadel (take it to dinner, drinks, and then home afterward), but the kid. No way.

It's like they want you to believe that circular logic now means, ok I hate this...whoever made the reapers (kid or whoever) and the Citadel, helped whoever came before the Protheans, develop this Crucible blueprint as some kind of sadistic test as to what organics would do to survive. Or as a way to survive. Shepard's ending only gets you part way.

It may be that they are trying to say that each cycle organics learned more, but not enough to create a better way. But in Shepard's time they had-debated ad nauseum.

This all may be why it thinks some options are better than others. Either that or it's tired and ran out of ideas-ways to prolong the suffering of organics.

But none of this matters because I have to make all this up.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 02 mai 2012 - 06:03 .

[Voodoo-j]

That was my thought as I was nearing the end of the game.. needed to protect the Crucible while it locally deactivated the reapers defenses and made it a conventional battle. The whole.. use the mass accelerators to send pulses still baffles me. The amount of energy required to send a spherical pulse .. which makes me wonder about how I've accepted nearly the same thing in Halo without questioning it...at least the Halo rings are considerable larger.

[Benchpress610]

3DandBeyond wrote...

@Benchpress610,
Precisely.  Excellent post. The idea that it was dependent upon the reaper kid does not make sense-involves too many permutations of what is known to get you to that conclusion.

It makes more sense that it is some type of real weapon or just a way to bring down their shields. Simple, direct. Cut to fighting against unshielded reapers. Thanix cannon blazing away.

It's ok if it must first make nice with the Citadel (take it to dinner, drinks, and then home afterward), but the kid. No way.

It's like they want you to believe that circular logic now means, ok I hate this...whoever made the reapers (kid or whoever) and the Citadel, helped whoever came before the Protheans, develop this Crucible blueprint as some kind of sadistic test as to what organics would do to survive. Or as a way to survive. Shepard's ending only gets you part way.

It may be that they are trying to say that each cycle organics learned more, but not enough to create a better way. But in Shepard's time they had-debated ad nauseum.

This all may be why it thinks some options are better than others. Either that or it's tired and ran out of ideas-ways to prolong the suffering of organics.

But none of this matters because I have to make all this up.

Lol, I know what you mean… If the EC is just to explain to us dumb folks the existing ending as it stands. I’m afraid they are gonna dig themselves a deeper hole.
 
Think about it, in order to explain one plothole, they have to make an assumption that makes still less sense than the first one, then to try to explain away that assumption, they must make another assumption that still makes less sense,… and so forth and so on…good luck fellas!!!  

[3DandBeyond]

It all makes complete sense now. The kid or whoever the creator is created the citadel and plans for the crucible so the created could destroy the creator. Where's my prize?

[Redbelle]

Every great story can be resolved with lots of light banishing the darkness. Can't have white though, that's been done.........

[ghost9191]

Benchpress610 wrote...

@ 3DandBeyond and Voodoo-j, let me interject my thoughts in this discussion:
 
Since ME1 I’ve been always puzzled as how in hell was it possible to defeat a whole fleet of reapers when it took most of the Alliance fleet, plus some asari and  turian ships, to take down just one. And this was only possible after Shepard defeated its avatar/Saren/husk thing, which brought down its shields…Further,  In ME2’s Derelict Reaper mission, EDI stated that “Reapers are impervious to dreadnought fire”. In the ME universe, what’s more powerful than a dreadnought? … Hence, the need for a super weapon which can strip down the reaper’s shields. See where I’m going with this?
 
Fast forward to ME3 when from the very beginning the concept of the Crucible was introduced. It can be debated whether the mere concept of the Crucible is a form of Deus Ex Machina or not,  but it’s reasonable to assume that over the course of several cycles many civilizations have labor to find a way to stop the reapers by bringing down its shields so they can be destroyed. Every cycle has improved this weapon upon each other designs.
 
This is the point where all reason and logic goes to hell in a hand basket… How did the writers make the leap form a perfectly reasonable premise to the whole disjointed concept of the Catalyst/Star/kid? How a contraption that had been developed independently of the reapers became dependent on a reaper construct? Did the organics know how to make it work in the first place? Or did they know about the existence of the glowing child? Because obviously the Crucible wouldn’t work without it. It stands to reason that the reapers must have known the attempts of the organics at building a super-weapon to destroy them. Why didn’t they destroy it first along with all its research and knowledge of its existence?.. I can keep going, but see my point? And it keeps getting more and more convoluted and illogic.
 
It would’ve been simpler that the Crucible was a device which would’ve sent an EMS pulse synchronized to the reapers’ frequency that would’ve brought down their shields, thus allowing the victory fleet to dispose of them. For that purpose it needed a huge amount of energy, and what’s the biggest mass effect engine in the galaxy? The Citadel, hence the Catalyst.
 
The elements for an epic end were there, but for some reason that escapes logic (pun intended) they chose to go the star kid route.   

well if you read the codex it states that 2 dreadnoughts can cause strain on a reapers shields where 3 would destroy them.. the turians took out a few in the battle of palaven. and with the thanix weapons(which were said to be mass produced and fitted on alliance ships) they can take down a reapers shields. well if i remember right the codex said that i think. Anyways my pooint is they say that the reapers cannot be beat conventionally but the codex says with the right tactics and finding their weakness it is possible for the reapers to be beat.

i mean with the fleet you amass at the end you should be able to atleast push them back, "Quantity has a quality all of it's own".
I am just saying it took alot to take out sovereign but with the thanix weapons which they developed from the wreckage they would be able to push them back like i said, i think , my opinion based from what i read in the codex and whatnot.


theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the reapers could be defeated. codex entry in the reapers      reaper vulnerabilities

[sdinc009]

Benchpress610 wrote...

@ 3DandBeyond and Voodoo-j, let me interject my thoughts in this discussion:
 
Since ME1 I’ve been always puzzled as how in hell was it possible to defeat a whole fleet of reapers when it took most of the Alliance fleet, plus some asari and  turian ships, to take down just one. And this was only possible after Shepard defeated its avatar/Saren/husk thing, which brought down its shields…Further,  In ME2’s Derelict Reaper mission, EDI stated that “Reapers are impervious to dreadnought fire”. In the ME universe, what’s more powerful than a dreadnought? … Hence, the need for a super weapon which can strip down the reaper’s shields. See where I’m going with this?
 
Fast forward to ME3 when from the very beginning the concept of the Crucible was introduced. It can be debated whether the mere concept of the Crucible is a form of Deus Ex Machina or not,  but it’s reasonable to assume that over the course of several cycles many civilizations have labor to find a way to stop the reapers by bringing down its shields so they can be destroyed. Every cycle has improved this weapon upon each other designs.
 
This is the point where all reason and logic goes to hell in a hand basket… How did the writers make the leap form a perfectly reasonable premise to the whole disjointed concept of the Catalyst/Star/kid? How a contraption that had been developed independently of the reapers became dependent on a reaper construct? Did the organics know how to make it work in the first place? Or did they know about the existence of the glowing child? Because obviously the Crucible wouldn’t work without it. It stands to reason that the reapers must have known the attempts of the organics at building a super-weapon to destroy them. Why didn’t they destroy it first along with all its research and knowledge of its existence?.. I can keep going, but see my point? And it keeps getting more and more convoluted and illogic.
 
It would’ve been simpler that the Crucible was a device which would’ve sent an EMS pulse synchronized to the reapers’ frequency that would’ve brought down their shields, thus allowing the victory fleet to dispose of them. For that purpose it needed a huge amount of energy, and what’s the biggest mass effect engine in the galaxy? The Citadel, hence the Catalyst.
 
The elements for an epic end were there, but for some reason that escapes logic (pun intended) they chose to go the star kid route.   

Yes, this would have been a logical conclusion to the story. The whole plot point of the Reaper signal being discovered a few missions back would have tied it up perfectly. One disagreement I have however, is that even though the Crucible has the "fix-all" characteristics of a Deus Ex Machina, the fact that it is introduced earlt in the story as a major plot device and plays such a huge role in the story makes it a valid plot point and not a Deus Ex Machina. The Catalyst character however makes it's totally random appearance in the very final scene

[Benchpress610]

sdinc009 wrote...
Yes, this would have been a logical conclusion to the story. The whole plot point of the Reaper signal being discovered a few missions back would have tied it up perfectly. One disagreement I have however, is that even though the Crucible has the "fix-all" characteristics of a Deus Ex Machina, the fact that it is introduced earlt in the story as a major plot device and plays such a huge role in the story makes it a valid plot point and not a Deus Ex Machina. The Catalyst character however makes it's totally random appearance in the very final scene

I don’t think we have a disagreement. My point was that although it could debated and, as you point out, the Crucible has characteristics of a Deus Ex Machina, the seeds of a super-weapon are planted very early in the story, and I’m OK with it

[SimonTheFrog]

sdinc009 wrote..


Yes, this would have been a logical conclusion to the story. The whole plot point of the Reaper signal being discovered a few missions back would have tied it up perfectly. One disagreement I have however, is that even though the Crucible has the "fix-all" characteristics of a Deus Ex Machina, the fact that it is introduced earlt in the story as a major plot device and plays such a huge role in the story makes it a valid plot point and not a Deus Ex Machina. The Catalyst character however makes it's totally random appearance in the very final scene

If you see the ME3 game as a stand-alone, maybe.
But it is the third part of a trilogy. And if you look at the arc of the trilogy, the crucible does pop up very conveniently just in time. 

I would be ok with a fix-all doomsday device. If you create a villain with superpowers, you paint yourself into a corner. That's what happened with ME at least. And then you have to come up with something rather unbeleavable and silly to get yourself out of the corner. 
This shouldn't be necessary if you plan ahead better and the way it was handled it has the taste of silliness all over it.
But here we go... games are still light-years away from grown-up entertainment or even art after all. 

[Benchpress610]

ghost9191 wrote...
well if you read the codex it states that 2 dreadnoughts can cause strain on a reapers shields where 3 would destroy them.. the turians took out a few in the battle of palaven. and with the thanix weapons(which were said to be mass produced and fitted on alliance ships) they can take down a reapers shields. well if i remember right the codex said that i think. Anyways my pooint is they say that the reapers cannot be beat conventionally but the codex says with the right tactics and finding their weakness it is possible for the reapers to be beat.

i mean with the fleet you amass at the end you should be able to atleast push them back, "Quantity has a quality all of it's own".
I am just saying it took alot to take out sovereign but with the thanix weapons which they developed from the wreckage they would be able to push them back like i said, i think , my opinion based from what i read in the codex and whatnot.


theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the reapers could be defeated. codex entry in the reapers      reaper vulnerabilities

Well, I have to admit, I haven’t read much of the codex in ME3, There wasn’t much in the Reaper entry in ME2, but I clearly remember when Shep and the squad got trapped inside the derelict reaper, Shep asked EDI to blast them out and EDI reply was “Reapers are impervious to dreadnought fire”. The Normandy had the Tranix cannon by then. Obviously technology advanced quite a bit in the time between ME2 and 3.
 
But I’m digressing, the whole point of my post is that the elements of an epic ending battle were there, being a super weapon or a lot of tranix cannons. There was no need to introduce a story changing character in the last five minutes.

[ghost9191]

yeah well i just used your post as a opportunity to put my thoughts about beating the reapers conventionally, i mean i had the thanix weapon while i was on horizon but didn't use it, even though it two shots a collector ship,

[LiarasShield]

Thanatos144 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

LOL I am suppose to be the bitter one? Really not. I haven't been attacking anyone

Calling people trolls, indicating they lack comprehension skills, calling people immature-oh, but to use your words you didn't call people immature often, is attacking.

Yet, I for one have avoided commenting on how sorely lacking you are in writing skills.  I don't want to be the grammar police, but when insulting people if you could just please make your sentences make sense, it would be appreciated.  I wouldn't want anyone to miss the words of wisdom.  If however you don't speak English as your first language, I mean no disrespect. 

That wasn't an attack on you that was a statement of fact that you need to
stop trolling me. You say people are immature I never said so. I said
many of you were acting childish. I was asked my opinion several time
and then called a troll for giving it. Shoot one of you keep talking
about my tone ....Said I was treating you all like idiots. Seems to be
that person reads more into my posts then whats there. YOU and many like
you are never going to be happy so it really doesn't matter. I find it honorable that Bio-ware isn't caving to the few loud complainants  and
sticking to their guns. That takes strength in today's world with all the
freaky entitlement sentimentality that is prevalent in today's youth (no
that doesn't mean child).  Fact is you and many of you didn't expect the
ending and I am guess more than a few don't understand it.....Yes many
have said this with them saying the ending doesn't make sense.  Yes it
does follow the lore of the game it just doesn't follow YOUR idea of what
the lore should be. Yes you bought a game and can if you want complain
about it just as I have the right to say why It was great and why I
think you are wrong.

You see having a contrary opinion doe not mean I am a troll it means I do not let the few loud opinions cloud my reasoning.

You know I can't laugh any harder from reading your post yeah creating synthetics to kill organics from creating synthetics that will kill them yeah that sure makes a lot of sense and follows the lore of the series nah just kidding nope it doesn't but again you're funny so I guess You may continue lol

[LiarasShield]

Seriously everyone just don't fight with thanatos anymore you can point out what is wrong and he will most likely never see the very logic that you point out I think he just likes to annoy other people so he will just say the ending is fine no matter what you point out cause he just wants to get a rise out of you otherwise why else would he be here when he has said hes moved on lol but yeah just don't even waste anymore posts on him

[LiarasShield]

but yeah will see if anything good comes from extended ^_-

[Lohan7]

Favorite moment is when I was finally able to have Shepard kill Kai Leng. The only problem was that Kai Leng ran to much, it should have been a staight up fight.  I mean what is the melee ability for anyway.

Modifié par Lohan7, 02 mai 2012 - 07:55 .

[LiarasShield]

but yes 3dand, bell, and darkway you all are awesome ^^