23455 réponses à ce sujet

[babachewie]

Voodoo-j wrote...

babachewie wrote...

I hope you are also listening to those who liked and understood the dual nature of what it represented. Adding to it is fine, but altering it would be travesty

I absolutly agree thats your right as someone that purchased it.. as such the DLC is optional to download.

I don't want an ending of death to be taken out, I just want the variety of endings that make replaying the game worthwhile.  I don't like to repeat the same exact dialogue with the same exact cut scenes with the same exact ending.

But as it's DLC it's always the choice of the player to change it if they feel they like what currently is.

I think that's were some players go .. what's wrong with the ending?  Well do you plan on replaying the game?
Do you want the enjoyment of replaying ME 1-3 to have varied outcomes?  

At this point.. if you don't see the point, I'm wasting my fingers.

 ME2 only had 2 endings and regardless if you agreed with TIM, you still end up working for the alliance again. Udina is still councilor no matter what you chose in ME1. Its an illusion that you think you have complete choice over what happens. You're on set path with no way of deviating from it. To think they were going to give everyone 30 different endings each with its own cutscene is pretty silly. Hell a 360 disk holds about 9 gigs. They would probably have to make a disk just for endings to accomplish what everyone wanted. 

[ShadowWeaver2012]

The dialogue at the end with Anderson. "You did good, child."

[babachewie]

sdinc009 wrote...

Story structure;
Exposition-> Conflict-> Rising Action-> Climax-> Falling Action-> Resolution

Resolution is where the loose ends are tied up, the story draws to a close. This is not the time to intrroduce a brand new character that is going to be pivotal to the plot. This is not the time to change who the primary antagonist of the entire series is, this is not the time to change what the main driving goal of the entire series is, this is not the time to redefine the main protagonist and yet all of this was done at the end of ME3. This is why the ending does not work. This is why almost everyone who played through the game can see when the story begins to fall apart and ceases to make sense.

It makes sense if you paid attention to the previous games and the duality behind some of the story arcs. The ending works on so many levels.

[sdinc009]

babachewie wrote...

sdinc009 wrote...

Story structure;
Exposition-> Conflict-> Rising Action-> Climax-> Falling Action-> Resolution

Resolution is where the loose ends are tied up, the story draws to a close. This is not the time to intrroduce a brand new character that is going to be pivotal to the plot. This is not the time to change who the primary antagonist of the entire series is, this is not the time to change what the main driving goal of the entire series is, this is not the time to redefine the main protagonist and yet all of this was done at the end of ME3. This is why the ending does not work. This is why almost everyone who played through the game can see when the story begins to fall apart and ceases to make sense.

It makes sense if you paid attention to the previous games and the duality behind some of the story arcs. The ending works on so many levels.

Ok feel free to  explain. Above I have shown that the ending breaks the rules of story construction. You claim that it works on many levels, but fail to elaborate as to how, so help me to understand just how this ending is anything but broken. I would honestly like understand so here's your chance to elaborate. And I've been with the franchise since ME1, all DLC, and 3 different character builds all imported so I did pay attention. Please include an explanation for how having a 3 choice ending conforms with your duality (2) explanation. Thanks

[3DandBeyond]

babachewie wrote...


 ME2 only had 2 endings and regardless if you agreed with TIM, you still end up working for the alliance again. Udina is still councilor no matter what you chose in ME1. Its an illusion that you think you have complete choice over what happens. You're on set path with no way of deviating from it. To think they were going to give everyone 30 different endings each with its own cutscene is pretty silly. Hell a 360 disk holds about 9 gigs. They would probably have to make a disk just for endings to accomplish what everyone wanted. 

You are of course entitled to your opinion.
You cannot compare the endings of ME1 and 2 to that of ME3 for this main reason: they were not the end of a series.  They led into an ending-things storywise could funnel in very few directions as well as they could only funnel in certain ways because another game built off of them.  You can see the workarounds they had to make to keep up with choices people made in those games.  Wreav or Wrex, Maelon or Mordin, and so on.  The end game in a series does not have to worry about those kinds of things.  Still even one super fantastic ending that tied up stuff, would have been far more satisfying than what we got. It could have showed some different things, even if essentially it was only the destruction of the reapers, with the main variations being whether Shepard lives or dies and what teammembers survived as well and we might have accepted it,

It's all been said before.  In great or even good storytelling, you don't displace a main character at the end-it removes story cohesion.  The reapers were the enemy, but all of a sudden there's this kid, star kid.  In great or even good storytelling, your characters (especially the protagonist) may grow along the way, but it's a real downer if they digress and devolve as Shepard did.  S/he turned into a spineless, gutless wonder that seemed to have lost a voice. 

In that spirit, here are some things that Shepard might have said or was just probably thinking:
"You want me to destroy everything I worked for, including possibly friends and all?  Gotcha boss, on my way.  Glad I get to destroy those nasty reapers, too.  It makes complete sense that you'd let me do that." 

"You think I should control those squishy reapers?  No problem I'll just toddle off here and get on it, even though I have always abhorred the thought of controlling them and I've seen what others become when they try to do this.  Only purely evil people would consider this a good option, but I am so so happy to do it.  Even if I get to die but I'm controlling them.  I don't get it, but I'm sure it makes sense.  You have the best ideas." 

"Oh, yes that's a super de dooper idea, synthesis.  I don't think any being in this galaxy should have any say over what happens to them.  You and I know better.  I've never wanted to tell people what to do with their lives before, but now it makes complete sense that I will decide for trillions of people and even more untold numbers of organisms and organic and synthetic life." 

"I am fully aware that you are the bestest most smartest being in the whole galaxy so somewhere somehow that stupendous idea that the created will rebel against the creators, which means they'll destroy them, and in order to keep us from being destroyed you must destroy us, makes complete sense.  I hit my head though, so that's why I probably don't get it.  I also don't think I need to tell you that synthetics and organics in this cycle have learned it's possible to get along.  Your logic is way betterer." 

"Now let me go pick a pretty color, k?  What do you think?   One that matches my eyes?"

[No_MSG]

babachewie wrote...

I hope you are also listening to those who liked and understood the dual nature of what it represented. Adding to it is fine, but altering it would be travesty

Never fear.  You're the only ones they're listening to.

[babachewie]

sdinc009 wrote...

babachewie wrote...

sdinc009 wrote...

Story structure;
Exposition-> Conflict-> Rising Action-> Climax-> Falling Action-> Resolution

Resolution is where the loose ends are tied up, the story draws to a close. This is not the time to intrroduce a brand new character that is going to be pivotal to the plot. This is not the time to change who the primary antagonist of the entire series is, this is not the time to change what the main driving goal of the entire series is, this is not the time to redefine the main protagonist and yet all of this was done at the end of ME3. This is why the ending does not work. This is why almost everyone who played through the game can see when the story begins to fall apart and ceases to make sense.

It makes sense if you paid attention to the previous games and the duality behind some of the story arcs. The ending works on so many levels.

Ok feel free to  explain. Above I have shown that the ending breaks the rules of story construction. You claim that it works on many levels, but fail to elaborate as to how, so help me to understand just how this ending is anything but broken. I would honestly like understand so here's your chance to elaborate. And I've been with the franchise since ME1, all DLC, and 3 different character builds all imported so I did pay attention. Please include an explanation for how having a 3 choice ending conforms with your duality (2) explanation. Thanks

 First off I'm not religous but I don't even know if most people even noticed the extreme biblical references in it. I mean Shepard is raised to the heavens as it were. Then he meets the catalyst. I hate the term god child, but it definitely something powerful. Every 50,000 thousand years "god" child, using his giant reaper flood, washes away all sin and starts over again, because he has no faith in organics to overcome. No one has ever reached god. By doing so god has failed and has been proven wrong. He needs a new plan and he lets the most worthy of them all decide for themselves what that should be. You can control god, merge with god, or destroy god. Each decision regardless makes the old god either dead or irrelevant. With god out of the equation, organics are fit to determine their own destiny. Then you have the whole adam and eve thing with joker and whoever. And you can argue why bioware would do something like mix religous overtones in the ending. And i would say because they been doin it from the beginning. "Eden" Prime, Purgatory, After Life, Legion. Hell his name is Shepard  and he died and was resurrected by the "Lazurus" Project. Speaking of Legion, his loyalty mission is called A House Divided which is referenced  Mark 3:25. Miranda loyalty mission is referenced to Luke 11. The prodical son. Garrus, Exodus 21:24. Thanes Leviticus 26:39. Trust me there is a lot more than this. It would just take forever to get through it all. The fact that many didnt se something like this coming makes me wonder if they even understood Mass Effect at all

The ending isnt stupid and fits perfectly with the theme of the series. Each choice comes with a sacrifice. To me another one of the major themes is synthetic life and its role in the universe. Which is why I think the choices fit perfectly. Is wiping out and entire synthetic race worth the destruction of the reapers?  Or do you believe merging synthetic and organics together truly is the final step in evolution. I don't see one choice being anymore better than the other. I chose destroy the 1st time without even knowing Shepard lived cause I believed the needs of the many out weighed the needs of the few. Reapers needed to die. Some people disagree. Which is cool. I think the ending doesn't get the credit it deserves to be honest.

Modifié par babachewie, 03 mai 2012 - 10:24 .

[babachewie]

double posted. sorry

Modifié par babachewie, 03 mai 2012 - 10:38 .

[ghost9191]

well synthetics can be rebuilt, or hell flip the on/off switch a couple times they might turn back on. @babachewie i think you put more thought into the ending then bioware did. the ending comes down to synthetic vs. organic, which the whole series has been about destroying the reapers. or stopping them. but it changed at the end

i remember ppl bringing up religion in the game a few times but it was not that big of a deal, so i think but that is my opinion

My two cents:D

Modifié par ghost9191, 03 mai 2012 - 10:32 .

[babachewie]

ghost9191 wrote...

well synthetics can be rebuilt, or hell flip the on/off switch a couple times they might turn back on. @babachewie i think you put more thought into the ending then bioware did. the ending comes down to synthetic vs. organic, which the whole series has been about destroying the reapers. or stopping them. but it changed at the end

i remember ppl bringing up religion in the game a few times but it was not that big of a deal, so i think but that is my opinion

Well I've think I put more thought into the entire series than a lot people did. I have gone through the other 2 a least 15 times though. Synthtic vs organics is only a part of it. Theres a larger message behind it, but thats my opinion. I'm not trying to change change peoples minds. Just showing that those who liked it might have a reasons as well

Modifié par babachewie, 03 mai 2012 - 10:37 .

[Voodoo-j]

babachewie wrote...

You may bring up some good points with the references.  I don't think too many people dislike the game, just the very end.

I know I LOVE the game just the very ending ruins it.  There are far more points that bring sense, logic, what was promised, by word or implied.  ect

I recommend reading as far back as page 720 and start there.  Any reasonable open minded person would understand what the issues are and why people are upset.  Wether you agree with them or not is another thing, but at least you would understand why they feel as they do, and not criticise that they shouldn't be upset.

From the words you've posted I do see you as an intellectual, which I absolutely applaud, very few that speak up that like the ending that actually try and bring sense.  I know I have, and there are things that just are not right.

[ghost9191]

well yeah i wasn't disagreeing with you, i think the best way to find out what ppl feel is to watch the mass effect video by mrbtongue  
well i mean the ppl that feel the end to the story was a let down

Modifié par ghost9191, 03 mai 2012 - 10:41 .

[babachewie]

Voodoo-j wrote...

babachewie wrote...

You may bring up some good points with the references.  I don't think too many people dislike the game, just the very end.

I know I LOVE the game just the very ending ruins it.  There are far more points that bring sense, logic, what was promised, by word or implied.  ect

I recommend reading as far back as page 720 and start there.  Any reasonable open minded person would understand what the issues are and why people are upset.  Wether you agree with them or not is another thing, but at least you would understand why they feel as they do, and not criticise that they shouldn't be upset.

From the words you've posted I do see you as an intellectual, which I absolutely applaud, very few that speak up that like the ending that actually try and bring sense.  I know I have, and there are things that just are not right.

I've heard rational people with legitimate arguments to why they dont like it. A lot of people want to see thier actions and what happened with the squad. So do I actually, but there are a lot of people just screaming nonesense because they dont see past what they saw. I thought the the ending was beautiful. Its hard these days because games are getting smarter and might dive into things most people might not understand or even might not be interested in. 

*edit* the person below would be one of those examples of people screaming nonesense

Modifié par babachewie, 03 mai 2012 - 10:52 .

[LKx]

What can make the ending less terrible?

Well, besides the IT , which unfortunately is very unlikely at this point (even if the ending sequences felt really surreal) and would require a totally new ending , and since they'll won't totally change the plot:

- Expand the Battle for the Earth
- Get rid of the catalyst. No secret controller of reapers IN THE CITADEL in the last five minutes. Let Harbinger do the talk.
- Get rid of the Synthetic vs Organic argument, replace it with something else, or make a script which could actually convince us of it despite the fact that Shepard could have actually made Synthetic and Organics work togheter/love each other.
- Get rid of the normandy escape and crashing on an "eden" planet scene. That just embarrass yourself.
- Get rid of green space magic. Replace it with something else, even the original "became a reaper" option, if you find a purpose grave enough to make us think about doing it.
- Build a script which could convince us about control being an actual reasonable option despite i've just made TIM shoot himself challenging it. ("So the illusive man was right afterall..."... WTF???)
- Get rid of the "Shooting a tube while walking toward it" scene
- Make the choises made through the games affect the final outcome of the final choise (no, i don't mean that silly unified EMS value which you can boost through multiplayer...)
- Show what the **** happen to the galaxy civilizations and your companions (as i've said, you got rid of the silly normandy landing on eden...) after the aftermath of the crucible

You can keep:
- The sacrifice of Shepard. I don't care, if the outcome is worth it (and not a stupid leap of faith, or deliberately walking toward an explosion when there's no point in doing that).
- The loss of mass relays, IF and only IF you can give us a reasonable explanation how the galactic civilizations (and the victory fleet) are not totally f*ked up by it and doomed to chaos and death. Otherwise give use another option which won't destroy the mass relays.
- A grim ending (or more) between the choices available.

Modifié par LKx, 03 mai 2012 - 11:00 .

[Nekroso22]

babachewie wrote...

I thought the the ending was beautiful.

Which is no reason at all to think that there was anything going on in the ending "deeper" than what it was.

I could claim that the primary conflict of Star Wars was the battle between machines and organics. George Lucas admitted that the choice to make Darth Vader an android was deliberate. Most Star Wars villains are machines or at least partly cybernetic. I could claim that it was this dynamic opposition, that Star Wars portrays cybernetics as evil and natural humans as good, means that Star Wars is the deepest, most artistic, most beautiful movie ever made.

In making this argument, however, I am ignoring the rest of the story entirely. Your interpretation is your interpretation, but you're ignoring much of the Mass Effect story in favor of wild theories of Biblical significance and lofty philosophical undertones.

[babachewie]

Nekroso22 wrote...

babachewie wrote...

I thought the the ending was beautiful.

Which is no reason at all to think that there was anything going on in the ending "deeper" than what it was.

I could claim that the primary conflict of Star Wars was the battle between machines and organics. George Lucas admitted that the choice to make Darth Vader an android was deliberate. Most Star Wars villains are machines or at least partly cybernetic. I could claim that it was this dynamic opposition, that Star Wars portrays cybernetics as evil and natural humans as good, means that Star Wars is the deepest, most artistic, most beautiful movie ever made.

In making this argument, however, I am ignoring the rest of the story entirely. Your interpretation is your interpretation, but you're ignoring much of the Mass Effect story in favor of wild theories of Biblical significance and lofty philosophical undertones.

I think I pretty muched covered the fact I didnt ignore the story. I just gave plenty of evidence to support my claim. I also said it would take to long if I covered ever little thing. I dont understand your Star Wars argument, but I'm sure plenty of people have different interpretations of what the story meant ot them. So what? Doenst make them wrong. I think you're just graping at straws, but you are right. My interpretation is my interpretation. 

Modifié par babachewie, 03 mai 2012 - 11:06 .

[Voodoo-j]

There are all kinds of references.. to real life, to other games, and so forth.
They are the easter eggs of the game, they make it fun.
The ending on the other hand is not the ending I would expect after playing many Bioware Games. They want a reason for us to enjoy replaying the game with multiple endings. They have said as much. Did you watch the video that came with Mass Effect 1 with the extended artwork ect? Quite a few interviews. This is why I played ME 1 2 3, the ending fell flat on what it was meant to deliver.

[babachewie]

Voodoo-j wrote...

There are all kinds of references.. to real life, to other games, and so forth.
They are the easter eggs of the game, they make it fun.
The ending on the other hand is not the ending I would expect after playing many Bioware Games. They want a reason for us to enjoy replaying the game with multiple endings. They have said as much. Did you watch the video that came with Mass Effect 1 with the extended artwork ect? Quite a few interviews. This is why I played ME 1 2 3, the ending fell flat on what it was meant to deliver.

I highly doubt they had everything figured out by the time ME1 was finished. They didnt even know if it was gonna be popular. Writers changed among other things. I'm sure they had plenty of ideas and goals back then that never made it into the series. What they tried to do wasnt very easy and many developers probably wouldnt of even attempted. 

Modifié par babachewie, 03 mai 2012 - 11:11 .

[ghost9191]

well i think the ending is what it is, nothing deep to it the company (bioware) just dropped the ball on the end of the story. but that is my opinion just as everyone else has their own opinion on this forum.

i mean one of the easiest questions to ask is, if the catalyst has always been part of the citidel then why did the reaper have trouble getting through the backdoor in the first mass effect.   sorry if the citidel was always a part of the catalyst

Modifié par ghost9191, 03 mai 2012 - 11:15 .

[Voodoo-j]

One of the core things they revolved around is that the game had many choices, many outcomes, and the player was able to play again and again and experience them. It's what the game was based on at the core, it's why so many people flocked to ME 1.

Here is one of them..

Modifié par Voodoo-j, 03 mai 2012 - 11:17 .

[babachewie]

Voodoo-j wrote...

One of the core things they revolved around is that the game had many choices, many outcomes, and the player was able to play again and again and experience them. It's what the game was based on at the core, it's why so many people flocked to ME 1.

Here is one of them..

I've seen this video. Well I guess it's up to the player whether they believe if it has replayability. I think it does. Regardless of the ending I have plenty of shepards that did different things male and female. So each time will be a different experience to a degree for me at least

[Benchpress610]

Control: the glowing kid tells me I will die and lose everything I have. Now…how exactly am I controlling the Reapers when I'm dead? …just asking

Synthesis: Does this mean the Reapers are now half organic? Do they need to eat to survive? How and with what do you feed a 2 km long beast? Obviously they will need something nutritious …like half organic/half synthetic …Oh s***t…watch out galaxy!!!…..

Destroy: How exactly shooting this glass tube will destroy the Reapers? Who built it? It’s not part of the Crucible, so how did it get here? Did the glowing kid built this whole contraption in ten minutes?

Nah…I think I’ll blow the kid’s brains out…..he’s not making any sense anyhow.

Modifié par Benchpress610, 04 mai 2012 - 12:17 .

[3DandBeyond]

I can come up with many theories and have read some real out there meanings for the ending, but it still boils down to this for me:
It's disjointed as in it does not fit with the rest of the game-chronological issues, TIM's newfound mind control, and new star kid character. Different game from what I've been playing.

No real interaction-Shepard gets to listen a lot and then limp off to destroy billions.

Rest of dis-jointed, ridiculous Joker and teammates run away to procreate on idyllic world.

Ok, I don't care about the theories. I can imagine all kinds of things for myself. Perhaps the kid is really a circus clown and wants to see if Shepard can run a 3 ring circus. I don't give a good flying fish sandwich.

It is no way to end a series that was about character interaction and that in the final game was about you amassing all this awesome firepower and all these resources and asking your friends to very likely die for this suicidal cause. In the end, your work didn't mean much, your friends are running away to what, god only knows since they would figure a Reaper posse would come looking for them. In London forces are told to retreat-retreat to where???

It all boils down to an unsatisfying and distinctly un-fun ending. It could be the most wonderfully esoteric commentary that fully explains the meaning of life or the Jersey Shore and I could care less. It's horrible as a story ending. It features exactly zero characters in it that make any sense whatsoever. Anderson is out of place-he's behind Shepard, no, he's in front of him. TIM is there-how, we don't know and he has super powers-indoctrination does that, you know. And Shepard, well I don't recognize this Shepard at all. And, Star Kid, Star Kid I hate you most of all. Give me a headache and call it a good time. Illogical, even stupid and we are supposed to just buy all this.

It....isn't.........fun. Not good for a game.

[3DandBeyond]

Benchpress610 wrote...

Control: the glowing kid tells me I will die and lose everything I have. Now…how exactly am I controlling the Reapers when I'm dead? …just asking

Synthesis: Does this mean the Reapers are now half organic? Do they need to eat to survive? How and with what do you feed a 2 km long beast? Obviously they will need something nutritious …like half organic/half synthetic …Oh s***t…watch out galaxy!!!…..

Destroy: How exactly shooting this glass tube will destroy the Reapers? Who built it? It’s not part of the Crucible, so how did it get here? Did the glowing kid built this whole contraption in ten minutes?

Nah…I think I’ll blow the kid’s brains out…..he’s not making any sense anyhow.

Great post which introduces something I had not though about-what do synth/organics eat?  The organic side would need nourishment, but wouldn't everything be inedible.  I mean, this calls into question that whole thing.  Anything they eat would have to be part synthetic as well.  This would mean at a molecular level as well.  It wouldn't be like you could just cut out the synthetic part and you're good to go.

As to how the star kid built the whole thing that quickly, we were informed by another poster that computers are fast. 

They can quickly build all this stuff somehow (yeah, right), but can't grasp one of the main things in these three games-that people can change.  And by that I don't mean just people.  I mean all beings.  Great point that somehow all that would have to be built that quickly because the kid only decided to give out the 3 choices after Shepard made it to the top.  So, ten minutes is being generous.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 mai 2012 - 12:43 .

[babachewie]

3DandBeyond wrote...

I can come up with many theories and have read some real out there meanings for the ending, but it still boils down to this for me:
It's disjointed as in it does not fit with the rest of the game-chronological issues, TIM's newfound mind control, and new star kid character. Different game from what I've been playing.

No real interaction-Shepard gets to listen a lot and then limp off to destroy billions.

Rest of dis-jointed, ridiculous Joker and teammates run away to procreate on idyllic world.

Ok, I don't care about the theories. I can imagine all kinds of things for myself. Perhaps the kid is really a circus clown and wants to see if Shepard can run a 3 ring circus. I don't give a good flying fish sandwich.

It is no way to end a series that was about character interaction and that in the final game was about you amassing all this awesome firepower and all these resources and asking your friends to very likely die for this suicidal cause. In the end, your work didn't mean much, your friends are running away to what, god only knows since they would figure a Reaper posse would come looking for them. In London forces are told to retreat-retreat to where???

It all boils down to an unsatisfying and distinctly un-fun ending. It could be the most wonderfully esoteric commentary that fully explains the meaning of life or the Jersey Shore and I could care less. It's horrible as a story ending. It features exactly zero characters in it that make any sense whatsoever. Anderson is out of place-he's behind Shepard, no, he's in front of him. TIM is there-how, we don't know and he has super powers-indoctrination does that, you know. And Shepard, well I don't recognize this Shepard at all. And, Star Kid, Star Kid I hate you most of all. Give me a headache and call it a good time. Illogical, even stupid and we are supposed to just buy all this.

It....isn't.........fun. Not good for a game.

a lot of words. Very little meaning. Sounds like you didnt care about the story. You just wanted pew pew big glorious explosion unthought-provoking nonesense. Which is fine. I saw the new trailer for Expendables 2 today and am totally on board with that. TIM's Control powers and Anderson ahead of you is explained in the game. I'm not sure how you missed that. I guess if you missed that, its not hard to figure out why you didnt like the ending.