23455 réponses à ce sujet

[sdinc009]

babachewie

Thank you, I appreciate your well thoughtout interpretaion of 1 of the many underlying themes in ME3. Keep in mind that multiple interpretaion can be found in most works within these underlying themes. How many underlying themes are present in Robert Frost's "A Road less Travelled"? These themes add depth and imagination to the story. Themes do not stand alone. The must work with the other key elements of the narrative. I'm not arguing the story, it's the ending that doesn't work. As I originaly stated, Shepards personality is redefine, a new anatagonist acting as a Deus Ex Machina (which is widely considered in the literary community to be a weak plot device, poor writing, and cheapens the entire story rendering the actions of the main characters meaningless), and changes the main driving goal of the entire series. This is what breaks the narrative cohesion of the story and why the ending doesn't make sense. Though your interpretion is relevant and imaginative it also usurps the more primary elements of the stories structure and aserts that what is at best an arguable underlying theme is a main plot line. So how do you explain away the violations of what a story does in the Resolution stage, and what about the myriad of plot holes, and you still haven't explained the issue I previously mentioned about your duality claim.

Modifié par sdinc009, 04 mai 2012 - 12:55 .

[Voodoo-j]

babachewie wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

I can come up with many theories and have read some real out there meanings for the ending, but it still boils down to this for me:
It's disjointed as in it does not fit with the rest of the game-chronological issues, TIM's newfound mind control, and new star kid character. Different game from what I've been playing.

No real interaction-Shepard gets to listen a lot and then limp off to destroy billions.

Rest of dis-jointed, ridiculous Joker and teammates run away to procreate on idyllic world.

Ok, I don't care about the theories. I can imagine all kinds of things for myself. Perhaps the kid is really a circus clown and wants to see if Shepard can run a 3 ring circus. I don't give a good flying fish sandwich.

It is no way to end a series that was about character interaction and that in the final game was about you amassing all this awesome firepower and all these resources and asking your friends to very likely die for this suicidal cause. In the end, your work didn't mean much, your friends are running away to what, god only knows since they would figure a Reaper posse would come looking for them. In London forces are told to retreat-retreat to where???

It all boils down to an unsatisfying and distinctly un-fun ending. It could be the most wonderfully esoteric commentary that fully explains the meaning of life or the Jersey Shore and I could care less. It's horrible as a story ending. It features exactly zero characters in it that make any sense whatsoever. Anderson is out of place-he's behind Shepard, no, he's in front of him. TIM is there-how, we don't know and he has super powers-indoctrination does that, you know. And Shepard, well I don't recognize this Shepard at all. And, Star Kid, Star Kid I hate you most of all. Give me a headache and call it a good time. Illogical, even stupid and we are supposed to just buy all this.

It....isn't.........fun. Not good for a game.

a lot of words. Very little meaning. Sounds like you didnt care about the story. You just wanted pew pew big glorious explosion unthought-provoking nonesense. Which is fine. I saw the new trailer for Expendables 2 today and am totally on board with that. TIM's Control powers and Anderson ahead of you is explained in the game. I'm not sure how you missed that. I guess if you missed that, its not hard to figure out why you didnt like the ending. 

Well now your words are taking a turn, you don't see or give understanding to one of the more sensical people posting.  So now it's you can post your view in a very well worded intelectual manner, but you now feel the need to revert " oh you just want pew pew".  Obviously you have not read the posts of the past few days, you have no understanding, you are closed minded.  

Therefore I will no longer take to an understanding of what you have to say, your words are now mute.

You can't expect others to respect your view if you refuse to entertain theirs.

[Benchpress610]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

Control: the glowing kid tells me I will die and lose everything I have. Now…how exactly am I controlling the Reapers when I'm dead? …just asking

Synthesis: Does this mean the Reapers are now half organic? Do they need to eat to survive? How and with what do you feed a 2 km long beast? Obviously they will need something nutritious …like half organic/half synthetic …Oh s***t…watch out galaxy!!!…..

Destroy: How exactly shooting this glass tube will destroy the Reapers? Who built it? It’s not part of the Crucible, so how did it get here? Did the glowing kid built this whole contraption in ten minutes?

Nah…I think I’ll blow the kid’s brains out…..he’s not making any sense anyhow.

Great post which introduces something I had not though about-what do synth/organics eat?  The organic side would need nourishment, but wouldn't everything be inedible.  I mean, this calls into question that whole thing.  Anything they eat would have to be part synthetic as well.  This would mean at a molecular level as well.  It wouldn't be like you could just cut out the synthetic part and you're good to go.

As to how the star kid built the whole thing that quickly, we were informed by another poster that computers are fast. 

They can quickly build all this stuff somehow (yeah, right), but can't grasp one of the main things in these three games-that people can change.  And by that I don't mean just people.  I mean all beings.  Great point that somehow all that would have to be built that quickly because the kid only decided to give out the 3 choices after Shepard made it to the top.  So, ten minutes is being generous.

I was just trying, by going to the absurd, to demonstrate the absurdity of the ...err... "choices"

[babachewie]

sdinc009 wrote...

babachewie

Thank you, I appreciate your well thoughtout interpretaion of 1 of the many underlying themes in ME3. Keep in mind that multiple interpretaion can be found in most works within these underlying themes. How many underlying themes are present in Robert Frost's "A Road less Travelled"? These themes add depth and imagination to the story. Themes do not stand alone. The must work with the other key elements of the narrative. I'm not arguing the story, it's the ending that doesn't work. As I originaly stated, Shepards personality is redefine, a new anatagonist acting as a Deus Ex Machina (which is widely considered in the literary community to be a weak plot device, poor writing, and cheapens the entire story rendering the actions of the main characters meaningless), and changes the main driving goal of the entire series. This is what breaks the narrative cohesion of the story and why the ending doesn't make sense. Though your interpretion is relevant and imaginative it also usurps the more primary elements of the stories structure and aserts that what is at best an arguable underlying theme is a main plot line. So how do you explain away the violations of what a story does in the Resolution stage, and what about the myriad of plot holes, and you still haven't explained the issue I previously mentioned about your duality claim.

I dont know what plothole you're talking about. I also said many people have different interpretations. I didnt play Dues Ex, but know of it. I also just explained the representation of  Mass Effects story when it comes to religon and it certainly is not the only underlying theme of the series. I can go into more, but It would take until the the Extended cut to come for me to go through it all. Duality might of been a poor word choice though. i apologize for that.

In terms of the resolution. I think a effective resolution is worth remembering and should be on the viewers mind way after its over. Which I think it accomplished. It should create emotioal conflict. Which it certainly did, but I also dont think it has to resolve everything. In that case an epilogue is what is most likely warrented. Thats probably the only thing I would I say to Bioware. is I think the only thing they messed up on is not adding an epilogue.  I already said to someone else that I would of liked to of seen the consequences of what I did and what happened to the squad. 

[babachewie]

Voodoo-j wrote...

babachewie wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

I can come up with many theories and have read some real out there meanings for the ending, but it still boils down to this for me:
It's disjointed as in it does not fit with the rest of the game-chronological issues, TIM's newfound mind control, and new star kid character. Different game from what I've been playing.

No real interaction-Shepard gets to listen a lot and then limp off to destroy billions.

Rest of dis-jointed, ridiculous Joker and teammates run away to procreate on idyllic world.

Ok, I don't care about the theories. I can imagine all kinds of things for myself. Perhaps the kid is really a circus clown and wants to see if Shepard can run a 3 ring circus. I don't give a good flying fish sandwich.

It is no way to end a series that was about character interaction and that in the final game was about you amassing all this awesome firepower and all these resources and asking your friends to very likely die for this suicidal cause. In the end, your work didn't mean much, your friends are running away to what, god only knows since they would figure a Reaper posse would come looking for them. In London forces are told to retreat-retreat to where???

It all boils down to an unsatisfying and distinctly un-fun ending. It could be the most wonderfully esoteric commentary that fully explains the meaning of life or the Jersey Shore and I could care less. It's horrible as a story ending. It features exactly zero characters in it that make any sense whatsoever. Anderson is out of place-he's behind Shepard, no, he's in front of him. TIM is there-how, we don't know and he has super powers-indoctrination does that, you know. And Shepard, well I don't recognize this Shepard at all. And, Star Kid, Star Kid I hate you most of all. Give me a headache and call it a good time. Illogical, even stupid and we are supposed to just buy all this.

It....isn't.........fun. Not good for a game.

a lot of words. Very little meaning. Sounds like you didnt care about the story. You just wanted pew pew big glorious explosion unthought-provoking nonesense. Which is fine. I saw the new trailer for Expendables 2 today and am totally on board with that. TIM's Control powers and Anderson ahead of you is explained in the game. I'm not sure how you missed that. I guess if you missed that, its not hard to figure out why you didnt like the ending. 

Well now your words are taking a turn, you don't see or give understanding to one of the more sensical people posting.  So now it's you can post your view in a very well worded intelectual manner, but you now feel the need to revert " oh you just want pew pew".  Obviously you have not read the posts of the past few days, you have no understanding, you are closed minded.  

Therefore I will no longer take to an understanding of what you have to say, your words are now mute.

You can't expect others to respect your view if you refuse to entertain theirs.

This persons whole I dont care about anything, I just want what I want attitude sounds like whining. I wont entertain whining. 

Modifié par babachewie, 04 mai 2012 - 01:33 .

[Archonsg]

babachewie wrote...

The ending isnt stupid and fits perfectly with the theme of the series. Each choice comes with a sacrifice. To me another one of the major themes is synthetic life and its role in the universe. Which is why I think the choices fit perfectly. Is wiping out and entire synthetic race worth the destruction of the reapers?  Or do you believe merging synthetic and organics together truly is the final step in evolution. I don't see one choice being anymore better than the other. I chose destroy the 1st time without even knowing Shepard lived cause I believed the needs of the many out weighed the needs of the few. Reapers needed to die. Some people disagree. Which is cool. I think the ending doesn't get the credit it deserves to be honest.

So why not choose "control" then since you do have control of the reapers, then, fly them all into the sun?

That would be the best and most logical way to go right?
After all, if you really do have control, and especially if your Shepard's nature is slanted towards that of a Paragon, he has to see that his sacrifice has to mean something and in this case, he sacrifices his ideals, his life and all that he is, given a choice of killing EDI, the Geth and any other self aware synthethic, or to take control of the Reapers, Shepard would not choose to MURDER them because there really was another option.

Does this make better sense to you then either the destroy / synthesis option?


But here is where all three options are flawed. They aren't sacrifices. They are suicide options. Why? Because Shepard is taken out of the loop to decide why he has to die.
There is a difference when you choose to die because there is no other option and it is Shepard's (or in this case the player's) choice to do so, it is another when you are told to die and you have to choose the method to die even though you see flaws in each options and actually see ways around them.

In control, why would you want to do this, Both paragon / renegade Shepard values freedom of self, freedom of being. If it's only just for the sake of controling them? Makes no sense at all.

In Synthesis, why would either paragon / renegade Shepard choose this, after all, you are essentially told by an AI whose idea of Synthesis is not only a lie, since EVERY REAPER FORCE you have been fighting is a SYNTHESIS of an organic and Synthetic and those mindless things aren't just "only now become available", it is abhorrent to anyone who values the individuality of a person's right to exist. Why would I believe by doing this to every single living being, a sacrificial option? 

In Destroy, I can however can see the renegade Shepard being willing want to take this route, since his axiom would be "the means justifies the end". In this case, screw his "friends" since he / she really has none. But both Paragon / Renegade shepard would go "uhh... so why do I have to die, seriously?" Do others with cybernetic inplants die too, what do you mean exactly that I am part synthethic, if you are refering to my implants? Everything mass effect related? What about those with Biotic chips in their heads, would everyone with a chip in thier head get mind fried? 
"How about since if someone is to die, why not I just take control of the reapers and you and fly everything into the sun? Since I DO GET FULL CONTROL don't I?"

The problem is, in all three choices, ESPECIALLY the one dealing with "control" we aren't allowed to explore options. 

The ending is flawed, and lets face it, was done solely on "visual value" and from the perspective of the author's vision alone.
A game series which in the previous two installments allowed the player the illusion of choice (look up Dragon Age : Origins for how one should do "different" endings including one of sacrifice) so that the player would not be left feeling that he or she just had his or her game, taken over by a stranger and then forced to make choices he or she would not have made otherwise.

So no, those three options did not feel like Shepard making a sacrifice. It was Shepard meekly choosing a suicide option even though they do not make sense at all.

Modifié par Archonsg, 04 mai 2012 - 02:14 .

[LiarasShield]

babachewie wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

How can you like the ending no matter what you did no matter all the sacrifices that you make it doesn't change anything all the relays are destroyed and all the races are trapt around a dieing earth since the mass relays and the fuel stations are gone they will most likely die and what was the point of bringing all these force together and to solve certain issues if they're all going to die in space anyway despite your loyal crew just abandoning shepard and thee alliance and becoming desserters nothing you do counts because in the end we still ultimately fail anyone

let alone the flawed circular logic about how synthetics will kill organics so that organics won't make synthetics that will kill them and the flawed logic about how the created will always rebel against their creator when this isn't so the reaper don't repel or destroy the catalyst and the geth once broken from reaper control want to help the quarians rebuild rannoch so that logic alone doesn't make any sense I just don't see why some of you love the ending when you ultimately fail no matter what unlike in mass effect 2 where you can truely succede

Everything you said is just dreary fan fiction. My outlook is more positive.

honey dear that wasn't fanfiction love that happend at the end of the game unless you had a blindfold on and weren't watching it

[sdinc009]

babachewie wrote
I dont know what plothole you're talking about. I also said many people have different interpretations. I didnt play Dues Ex, but know of it. I also just explained the representation of  Mass Effects story when it comes to religon and it certainly is not the only underlying theme of the series. I can go into more, but It would take until the the Extended cut to come for me to go through it all. Duality might of been a poor word choice though. i apologize for that.

In terms of the resolution. I think a effective resolution is worth remembering and should be on the viewers mind way after its over. Which I think it accomplished. It should create emotioal conflict. Which it certainly did, but I also dont think it has to resolve everything. In that case an epilogue is what is most likely warrented. Thats probably the only thing I would I say to Bioware. is I think the only thing they messed up on is not adding an epilogue.  I already said to someone else that I would of liked to of seen the consequences of what I did and what happened to the squad. 
[/quote]


babachewie, Why is Joker fleeing the battle? How did my sqadmates who were with me on Earth suddenly on the Normandy? Those are 2 of the most obvious plot holes that are not explained and don't make sense. The ending of ME3 is the ending to Eidos Interactives 2000 release Deus Ex (3 option DESTROY, CONTROL, MERGE). That's a point of concern for the "integrity" of the ending, but that is not what I was refering to. Here's a link to the literary defintion of Deus Ex Machina from PFS Publishing

http://www.pfspublis...ex-machina.html

The Resolution stage serves the purpose of tieing up loose ends and creating closure for the story. Having some unanswered questions is ok, but too many and this stage of the story fails its purpose especially when it is the ending of the entire series. I would agree with you opinion of an effective resolution. But, for ME3 what is remembered is not how effective the resolution was, but how uneffective it was and the emotional conflict it creates is not the the ending as a narrative creation, but instead with how poorly put together it was and how in the final scenes of what would have otherwise been a masterpiece, amazingly the ending ruins the whole trilogy. The ending to a story is incredibly important and has to be handled with extreme care because it does have the power to ruin the entire story. The ending is not being remembered as an amazing catharic conclusion to to a sci-fi masterpiece, but instead for being a broken ending that leaves the vast majority of players feeling hollow, disappointed, empty, anger, and disallusioned.

Modifié par sdinc009, 04 mai 2012 - 02:08 .

[LiarasShield]

Unless thee extended lets the races rebuild the relays so that they can go home they will starve or kill each other near are dying earth trapt in our sol system

[LiarasShield]

and ultimately our death or sacrifce and all our work to bring the races together would've been in vain though I do hope for a decent ending in the good destroy ending

[LiarasShield]

and obviously bach you didn't pay attention to each relay being destroyed across thee entire galaxy on the galaxy map U-u

[babachewie]

Archonsg wrote...

babachewie wrote...

The ending isnt stupid and fits perfectly with the theme of the series. Each choice comes with a sacrifice. To me another one of the major themes is synthetic life and its role in the universe. Which is why I think the choices fit perfectly. Is wiping out and entire synthetic race worth the destruction of the reapers?  Or do you believe merging synthetic and organics together truly is the final step in evolution. I don't see one choice being anymore better than the other. I chose destroy the 1st time without even knowing Shepard lived cause I believed the needs of the many out weighed the needs of the few. Reapers needed to die. Some people disagree. Which is cool. I think the ending doesn't get the credit it deserves to be honest.

So why not choose "control" then since you do have control of the reapers, then, fly them all into the sun?

That would be the best and most logical way to go right?
After all, if you really do have control, and especially if your Shepard's nature is slanted towards that of a Paragon, he has to see that his sacrifice has to mean something and in this case, he sacrifices his ideals, his life and all that given a choice of killing making the choice of killing EDI, the Geth and any other self aware synthethic, or to take control of the Reapers, Shepard would not choose to MURDER them because there really was another option.

Does this make better sense to you then either the destroy / synthesis option?


But here is where all three options are flawed. They aren't sacrifices. They are suicide options. Why? Because Shepard is taken out of the loop to decide why he has to die.
There is a difference when you choose to die because there is no other option and it is Shepard's (or in this case the player's) choice to do so, it is another when you are told to die and you have to choose the method to die even though you see flaws in each options and actually see ways around them.

In control, why would you want to do this, Both paragon / renegade Shepard values freedom of self, freedom of being. If it's only just for the sake of controling them? Makes no sense at all.

In Synthesis, why would either paragon / renegade Shepard choose this, after all, you are essentially told by an AI whose idea of Synthesis is not only a lie, since EVERY REAPER FORCE you have been fighting is a SYNTHESIS of an organic and Synthetic and those mindless things aren't just "only now become available", it is abhorrent to anyone who values the individuality of a person's right to exist. Why would I believe by doing this to every single living being, a sacrificial option? 

In Destroy, I can however can see the renegade Shepard being willing want to take this route, since his axiom would be "the means justifies the end". In this case, screw his "friends" since he / she really has none. But both Paragon / Renegade shepard would go "uhh... so why do I have to die, seriously?" Do others with cybernetic inplants die too, what do you mean exactly that I am part synthethic, if you are refering to my implants? Everything mass effect related? What about those with Biotic chips in their heads, would everyone with a chip in thier head get mind fried? 
"How about since if someone is to die, why not I just take control of the reapers and you and fly everything into the sun? Since I DO GET FULL CONTROL don't I?"

The problem is, in all three choices, ESPECIALLY the one dealing with "control" we aren't allowed to explore options. 

The ending is flawed, and lets face it, was done solely on "visual value" and from the perspective of the author's vision alone.
A game series which in the previous two installments allowed the player the illusion of choice (look up Dragon Age : Origins for how one should do "different" endings including one of sacrifice) so that the player would not be left feeling that he or she just had his or her game, taken over by a stranger and then forced to make choices he or she would not have made otherwise.

So no, those three options did not feel like Shepard making a sacrifice. It was Shepard meekly choosing a suicide option even though they do not make sense at all.

Control is a viable option if that what you feel is the right call. I should of mentioned that. I didnt think it was permanent enough solution to the end of the reapers. So I didnt pick it. To me Shepards values saving the galaxy no matter the cost. Thats even a dialogue choice in the game. Freedom is an underlying theme of the series though. Every race wants to be their on master. The Geth wanna be free from their master, The Krogan from the genophage, Humanity from the council. Organics fromt the Reapers and so on. These 3 choices are also about freedom. I would dive more into this but im going to dinner and gonna watch the Avengers. I'm not saying your wrong but there are flaws in your analysis. 

Modifié par babachewie, 04 mai 2012 - 02:17 .

[LiarasShield]

yes but the whole point is shepards sacrifice didn't save the galaxy instead it end up dooming it at least as of right now at the last 5 or 10 mins shepard becomes the ultimate bad guy because he or she destroys their main form of transportation and dooms all the races around our dieing earth Lol

[Benchpress610]

I think some people have lost perspective of what this is all about. I’ve seen Mass Effect 1, 2 and 3 compared with great works of art in the literary world and analyzed as such. And that’s great, but they are NOT books or movies or plays, they are GAMES. Video games are the newest art form and as such they are different from books, movies or plays in that they are collaborative or interactive. The audience participates in its discourse. ME3 takes away that participation component from the audience in the last minutes of its discourse. That obviously generates negative feedback from the audience. The main reason most of us feel unsatisfied with the way the game ended is that all of the sudden the writers-developers took away from us that little device that makes a videogame a videogame: player control.


Since we are talking about a game…well…it’s a GAME, it’s supposed to be fun. If there is no fun in a game, we might as well call it something else. A game must be winnable for it to be fun. When playing a video game one expects to be rewarded when following specific patterns or rules that the game developers establish to define victory or success. Therefore, when a game doesn’t deliver on gamers (audiences) expectations of reward for a well-played performance, it’s considered a failure.
 
I’ve been playing video games since Pac Man and Space Invaders,… yes I’m that old. One common characteristic in every video game that they always implement some kind of reward system for performing well. When I accomplished every goal according to the game parameters established beforehand I expect the satisfaction of seeing my hero come through in the most difficult situations, the satisfaction of achieving a good outcome. That’s what Mass Effect 3 ending fails to deliver.

[babachewie]

LiarasShield wrote...

babachewie wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

How can you like the ending no matter what you did no matter all the sacrifices that you make it doesn't change anything all the relays are destroyed and all the races are trapt around a dieing earth since the mass relays and the fuel stations are gone they will most likely die and what was the point of bringing all these force together and to solve certain issues if they're all going to die in space anyway despite your loyal crew just abandoning shepard and thee alliance and becoming desserters nothing you do counts because in the end we still ultimately fail anyone

let alone the flawed circular logic about how synthetics will kill organics so that organics won't make synthetics that will kill them and the flawed logic about how the created will always rebel against their creator when this isn't so the reaper don't repel or destroy the catalyst and the geth once broken from reaper control want to help the quarians rebuild rannoch so that logic alone doesn't make any sense I just don't see why some of you love the ending when you ultimately fail no matter what unlike in mass effect 2 where you can truely succede

Everything you said is just dreary fan fiction. My outlook is more positive.

honey dear that wasn't fanfiction love that happend at the end of the game unless you had a blindfold on and weren't watching it

I didnt see the part where anyone abandoned everyone and that everyone died because the mass relays are gone. sounds like fan fiction

[LiarasShield]

babachewie wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

babachewie wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

How can you like the ending no matter what you did no matter all the sacrifices that you make it doesn't change anything all the relays are destroyed and all the races are trapt around a dieing earth since the mass relays and the fuel stations are gone they will most likely die and what was the point of bringing all these force together and to solve certain issues if they're all going to die in space anyway despite your loyal crew just abandoning shepard and thee alliance and becoming desserters nothing you do counts because in the end we still ultimately fail anyone

let alone the flawed circular logic about how synthetics will kill organics so that organics won't make synthetics that will kill them and the flawed logic about how the created will always rebel against their creator when this isn't so the reaper don't repel or destroy the catalyst and the geth once broken from reaper control want to help the quarians rebuild rannoch so that logic alone doesn't make any sense I just don't see why some of you love the ending when you ultimately fail no matter what unlike in mass effect 2 where you can truely succede

Everything you said is just dreary fan fiction. My outlook is more positive.

honey dear that wasn't fanfiction love that happend at the end of the game unless you had a blindfold on and weren't watching it

I didnt see the part where anyone abandoned everyone and that everyone died because the mass relays are gone. sounds like fan fiction

The normandy hit the mass relays or used ftl while the fleets were battleing the reapers and left thee alliance to rot in space because the relays were destroyed the moment the normandy abandoned the fleets and yes everyone will die because they are near a dieing earth without the mass relays and fuel they will eventually destroy each other because of runing out of supplies

[LiarasShield]

So no love nothing fanfiction about that dear that is real consequences played out and that we ultimately failed fake optimism or any sense of victory was lost here unless the dlc will make our sacrifice count and if the relays are rebuilt

[babachewie]

LiarasShield wrote...

babachewie wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

babachewie wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

How can you like the ending no matter what you did no matter all the sacrifices that you make it doesn't change anything all the relays are destroyed and all the races are trapt around a dieing earth since the mass relays and the fuel stations are gone they will most likely die and what was the point of bringing all these force together and to solve certain issues if they're all going to die in space anyway despite your loyal crew just abandoning shepard and thee alliance and becoming desserters nothing you do counts because in the end we still ultimately fail anyone

let alone the flawed circular logic about how synthetics will kill organics so that organics won't make synthetics that will kill them and the flawed logic about how the created will always rebel against their creator when this isn't so the reaper don't repel or destroy the catalyst and the geth once broken from reaper control want to help the quarians rebuild rannoch so that logic alone doesn't make any sense I just don't see why some of you love the ending when you ultimately fail no matter what unlike in mass effect 2 where you can truely succede

Everything you said is just dreary fan fiction. My outlook is more positive.

honey dear that wasn't fanfiction love that happend at the end of the game unless you had a blindfold on and weren't watching it

I didnt see the part where anyone abandoned everyone and that everyone died because the mass relays are gone. sounds like fan fiction

The normandy hit the mass relays or used ftl while the fleets were battleing the reapers and left thee alliance to rot in space because the relays were destroyed the moment the normandy abandoned the fleets and yes everyone will die because they are near a dieing earth without the mass relays and fuel they will eventually destroy each other because of runing out of supplies

There was a giant unknown wave coming towards them. I probably wouldnt sit around either. Also if you listened to Anderson he said they mostly hit the high populated urban areas with factories. Where smaller areas ones were left alone. I dont remember anyone saying Earth was dying either. Quarians lived most thier lives on ships and made thier own food which the turians can eat. The geth dont need food and can help with the rebuilding faster like they did when already accelerating the process in helping the quarians adapt to the Homeworld again. Also Earth isnt the only habital planet in Sol. Krogan could be a problem but with Wrex in charge I doubt their would be much. Again its just my opinion 

[chomicze]

:babachewie Did you play ME2 Arrival DLC? Remember what happens when Mass Relay is destroyed? And how many ships have FTL implemented? Especially old quarian ships for example?

[Archonsg]

babachewie wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

babachewie wrote...

The ending isnt stupid and fits perfectly with the theme of the series. Each choice comes with a sacrifice. To me another one of the major themes is synthetic life and its role in the universe. Which is why I think the choices fit perfectly. Is wiping out and entire synthetic race worth the destruction of the reapers?  Or do you believe merging synthetic and organics together truly is the final step in evolution. I don't see one choice being anymore better than the other. I chose destroy the 1st time without even knowing Shepard lived cause I believed the needs of the many out weighed the needs of the few. Reapers needed to die. Some people disagree. Which is cool. I think the ending doesn't get the credit it deserves to be honest.

So why not choose "control" then since you do have control of the reapers, then, fly them all into the sun?

That would be the best and most logical way to go right?
After all, if you really do have control, and especially if your Shepard's nature is slanted towards that of a Paragon, he has to see that his sacrifice has to mean something and in this case, he sacrifices his ideals, his life and all that given a choice of killing making the choice of killing EDI, the Geth and any other self aware synthethic, or to take control of the Reapers, Shepard would not choose to MURDER them because there really was another option.

Does this make better sense to you then either the destroy / synthesis option?


But here is where all three options are flawed. They aren't sacrifices. They are suicide options. Why? Because Shepard is taken out of the loop to decide why he has to die.
There is a difference when you choose to die because there is no other option and it is Shepard's (or in this case the player's) choice to do so, it is another when you are told to die and you have to choose the method to die even though you see flaws in each options and actually see ways around them.

In control, why would you want to do this, Both paragon / renegade Shepard values freedom of self, freedom of being. If it's only just for the sake of controling them? Makes no sense at all.

In Synthesis, why would either paragon / renegade Shepard choose this, after all, you are essentially told by an AI whose idea of Synthesis is not only a lie, since EVERY REAPER FORCE you have been fighting is a SYNTHESIS of an organic and Synthetic and those mindless things aren't just "only now become available", it is abhorrent to anyone who values the individuality of a person's right to exist. Why would I believe by doing this to every single living being, a sacrificial option? 

In Destroy, I can however can see the renegade Shepard being willing want to take this route, since his axiom would be "the means justifies the end". In this case, screw his "friends" since he / she really has none. But both Paragon / Renegade shepard would go "uhh... so why do I have to die, seriously?" Do others with cybernetic inplants die too, what do you mean exactly that I am part synthethic, if you are refering to my implants? Everything mass effect related? What about those with Biotic chips in their heads, would everyone with a chip in thier head get mind fried? 
"How about since if someone is to die, why not I just take control of the reapers and you and fly everything into the sun? Since I DO GET FULL CONTROL don't I?"

The problem is, in all three choices, ESPECIALLY the one dealing with "control" we aren't allowed to explore options. 

The ending is flawed, and lets face it, was done solely on "visual value" and from the perspective of the author's vision alone.
A game series which in the previous two installments allowed the player the illusion of choice (look up Dragon Age : Origins for how one should do "different" endings including one of sacrifice) so that the player would not be left feeling that he or she just had his or her game, taken over by a stranger and then forced to make choices he or she would not have made otherwise.

So no, those three options did not feel like Shepard making a sacrifice. It was Shepard meekly choosing a suicide option even though they do not make sense at all.

Control is a viable option if that what you feel is the right call. I should of mentioned that. I didnt think it was permanent enough solution to the end of the reapers. So I didnt pick it. To me Shepards values saving the galaxy no matter the cost. Thats even a dialogue choice in the game. Freedom is an underlying theme of the series though. Every race wants to be their on master. The Geth wanna be free from their master, The Krogan from the genophage, Humanity from the council. Organics fromt the Reapers and so on. These 3 choices are also about freedom. I would dive more into this but im going to dinner and gonna watch the Avengers. I'm not saying your wrong but there are flaws in your analysis. 

Will look forward to it.
Just to simplify things, this is how I see the three options

1) Control. You take control of the reapers and .... what? The ramifications are left open to the player's interpretation but as I pointed out, one of them is "control to destroy". Now if this is a possibility, why the last option? Unless you are not allowed to take control of the reapers in order to destroy them, then you don't really have control at all and it isn't really a choice at all, if you do have that choice, then it has to be clear that you can do so. Do you agree?

2) Synthesis. I find this abhorrent. "The galaxy loves diversity" or so a character said once in a previous game in the series. So why must I commit genetic rape, even though I already see the product of "synthesis" by the reapers and this coming from the AI controlling the Reapers? Also, I am not sure if the dialogue for the AI remains the same for everyone, but I do know that when Shepard asks "Will there be peace?" The AI dodges the question and answers "The cycle will end." Which is very different from "yes there will be peace." It signifies the removal of the "Organic" equation, the reapers are just fine with killing off all synthetics, or not, depending on the AI's mood, programing or whatever will trigger the next cycle. 

3) Destroy. See option 1. If option 1 exist, why the need for THIS option? Also, we do know that AI controls ONLY the reapers and does not have control of the Geth and other synthetic life forms. Since it has control of the reapers, it has the Reaper code. If so, then why can't I just say "okies, hit the kill switch on the reapers." so that ONLY the reapers die? Why do I have to kill any innocent at all, even more so, why does Shepard need to die?

Modifié par Archonsg, 04 mai 2012 - 02:52 .

[babachewie]

chomicze wrote...

:babachewie Did you play ME2 Arrival DLC? Remember what happens when Mass Relay is destroyed? And how many ships have FTL implemented? Especially old quarian ships for example?

If you think the Mass Relays took out every system like the arrival, then there is no way i can change your mind. All I know is smashing an asteroid bluntly into it might be different than the crucible. Mainly cause I look at the wave leaving the crucilble hitting Earth with no damage and looking at the wave coming for the destroyed relays and they both look the same. I figure if the the first wave does no damage, the 2nd probably doesnt either. Thats what I believe anyway.

[LiarasShield]

well as of right now their is no sense of victory and hopefully in thee extended dlc bach maybe they will show what you you're hopeing for but with the breeth cut off as it is their is no victory

[LiarasShield]

And I can't really accept working my ass of through this triliogy only to be given a ending where no matter what we do we still fail let alone be forced to accept 3 choices that shepard nor us would really make due to flawed or twisted logic

[LiarasShield]

or without showing us the full ramifications of these twisted choices being shown completely other then different colored explosions

[babachewie]

LiarasShield wrote...

or without showing us the full ramifications of these twisted choices being shown completely other then different colored explosions

I agree. I also would of liked to see an aftermath. I'm just waiting patiently to see where they go from this