23455 réponses à ce sujet

[ghost9191]

i think that is going to suck even more then the ending. i mean having to accept the endings the way they are. i would be more fine with the endings if i could at least inquire about the options before you have to make a crap choice. well i would still dislike it but would be easier to accept i guess,

[sdinc009]

babachewie wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

babachewie wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

How can you like the ending no matter what you did no matter all the sacrifices that you make it doesn't change anything all the relays are destroyed and all the races are trapt around a dieing earth since the mass relays and the fuel stations are gone they will most likely die and what was the point of bringing all these force together and to solve certain issues if they're all going to die in space anyway despite your loyal crew just abandoning shepard and thee alliance and becoming desserters nothing you do counts because in the end we still ultimately fail anyone

let alone the flawed circular logic about how synthetics will kill organics so that organics won't make synthetics that will kill them and the flawed logic about how the created will always rebel against their creator when this isn't so the reaper don't repel or destroy the catalyst and the geth once broken from reaper control want to help the quarians rebuild rannoch so that logic alone doesn't make any sense I just don't see why some of you love the ending when you ultimately fail no matter what unlike in mass effect 2 where you can truely succede

Everything you said is just dreary fan fiction. My outlook is more positive.

honey dear that wasn't fanfiction love that happend at the end of the game unless you had a blindfold on and weren't watching it

I didnt see the part where anyone abandoned everyone and that everyone died because the mass relays are gone. sounds like fan fiction

Technically, both your claims have merit. The fate of the galaxy is never actually addressed (which is an issue in itself) so it could be considered fan fiction. However, all LiaraShields is doing is drawing a logical conclusion based on a reasonable assessment of the ending. Because none of it is actually explained it is just conjecture and speculation even though it is based on logic. So really both of you are correct in your arguement becausee the ending fails to fully resolve this issue.

[LiarasShield]

Indeed thank you

[eoinnx03]

Keep on trollin OP.

[babachewie]

sdinc009 wrote...

babachewie wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

babachewie wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

How can you like the ending no matter what you did no matter all the sacrifices that you make it doesn't change anything all the relays are destroyed and all the races are trapt around a dieing earth since the mass relays and the fuel stations are gone they will most likely die and what was the point of bringing all these force together and to solve certain issues if they're all going to die in space anyway despite your loyal crew just abandoning shepard and thee alliance and becoming desserters nothing you do counts because in the end we still ultimately fail anyone

let alone the flawed circular logic about how synthetics will kill organics so that organics won't make synthetics that will kill them and the flawed logic about how the created will always rebel against their creator when this isn't so the reaper don't repel or destroy the catalyst and the geth once broken from reaper control want to help the quarians rebuild rannoch so that logic alone doesn't make any sense I just don't see why some of you love the ending when you ultimately fail no matter what unlike in mass effect 2 where you can truely succede

Everything you said is just dreary fan fiction. My outlook is more positive.

honey dear that wasn't fanfiction love that happend at the end of the game unless you had a blindfold on and weren't watching it

I didnt see the part where anyone abandoned everyone and that everyone died because the mass relays are gone. sounds like fan fiction

Technically, both your claims have merit. The fate of the galaxy is never actually addressed (which is an issue in itself) so it could be considered fan fiction. However, all LiaraShields is doing is drawing a logical conclusion based on a reasonable assessment of the ending. Because none of it is actually explained it is just conjecture and speculation even though it is based on logic. So really both of you are correct in your arguement becausee the ending fails to fully resolve this issue.

You are correct. My counter to this persons arugment isnt proven. Its just what I think based on wha ti know about the series. It is a fan fiction in its own right but thats the only way I can counter other peoples

[babachewie]

Anyway I do really have to go. Dinner then the Avengers. Hopefully we can continue this later

[sdinc009]

Thank you babachewie, I hope we can continue our discussion at a later time. Whenever I've tried to understand what someone who accepts this ending sees I've never been proved a straight answer only speculation, false asssumptions, insults, and deflections. You've provided insight into a different perspective and our debate was informative, intellligent, and mutally respectful.

[3DandBeyond]

Deleted/double post

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 mai 2012 - 03:55 .

[3DandBeyond]

babachewie wrote...
 This persons whole I dont care about anything, I just want what I want attitude sounds like whining. I wont entertain whining. 

You have never read any of my posts previous to your recent foray here, have you?  Yet here you are passing judgment on me, acting as if I just want what I want.  You are a most disagreeable person.

Yes, I'd like to see things changed.  I'd like the ending to make sense and not have to be explained using some made up logic that even you state it would take perhaps months to work out.  What kind of sense is that?

Mass Effect has from almost Day 1 had an antagonist/villain-the reapers.
Mass Effect has from day 1 had a protagonist/hero-Shepard

You do not change either of these in the last 5 minutes of a story.  If you think that makes sense then why don't you see what the story might be like if in the last 5 minutes Shepard is just not there-no reason.  And, all of a sudden there's some new guy you've never heard of that decides the ending.  Does that make andy sense?

The lack of coherence and cohesion at the end is one point.  And no, TIM's mind control is not explained.  He's indoctrinated-that doesn't give him the power of the Force.

Just as you can work out many theories as to what the ending means, so can I.  But it is all based upon stuff we make up and not stuff that happened in these games.  The star kid doesn't seem to know that you can unite the Geth and Quarian.  That's a big plot hole.  It puts the lie to the whole created/creator thing.

But, I'm sure you don't care.  You've made that clear. 

[3DandBeyond]

[quote]
babachewie wrote...

 a lot of words. Very little meaning.
Sounds like you didnt care about the story. You just wanted pew pew big
glorious explosion unthought-provoking nonesense. Which is fine. I saw
the new trailer for Expendables 2 today and am totally on board with
that. TIM's Control powers and Anderson ahead of you is explained in the
game. I'm not sure how you missed that. I guess if you missed that, its
not hard to figure out why you didnt like the ending. 
[/quote]

Great selective way to twist my words.  You might want to read some of people's earlier posts before you think you know what they want to see in an ending.  Your use of the expendables and pew pew indicaties a need to insult other people who have a different opinion from yours.  I tried to simplify some things that I don't like about the game, but you don't want to hear anything that disagrees with the way you see things.

This has been discussed very eloquently and elaborately all over the place.  People way more learned than I have tried to explain to you how the ending breaks with plot points, cohesiveness within a story and plain old-fashioned story telling.  I tried to simplify things so as not to revisit all the things that have been said.

What I would like in an ending is something that makes sense.  Please explain in your infinite superior wisdom how in the context of this game it can make sense for some super smart being to state that it will always be true that the created will rebel against (and destroy) the creator, so in order to keep that from happening, he sends the reapers to destroy them.

The introduction of the star kid alone does not make for good story telling.  You do not, absolutely do not, replace a main character in a story at the last second with another character that has not existed before in the story. 

I am sure you know all this.
[/quote]

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 mai 2012 - 04:13 .

[sdinc009]

babachewie wrote...

chomicze wrote...

:babachewie Did you play ME2 Arrival DLC? Remember what happens when Mass Relay is destroyed? And how many ships have FTL implemented? Especially old quarian ships for example?

If you think the Mass Relays took out every system like the arrival, then there is no way i can change your mind. All I know is smashing an asteroid bluntly into it might be different than the crucible. Mainly cause I look at the wave leaving the crucilble hitting Earth with no damage and looking at the wave coming for the destroyed relays and they both look the same. I figure if the the first wave does no damage, the 2nd probably doesnt either. Thats what I believe anyway.

This is another plot hole that is in need of resolution. Both sides of this arguement could techically be correct and so it can be debated forever. The "it's a different kind of explosion" is certainly viable and a logical observation. I personally would have to side with the destroying a mass relay destroys the system it is located. I choose this on the simple fact that the Arrival DLC in ME2 addressed this plot point as part of the ME canon. So, really this is the only fact we have as an audience regarding this issue. If Bioware wants to say otherwise, that's fine, simple to explain how it's different. However, as the fact stand, (without speculation) logically I must assume according to the Arrival DLC that when a Mass Relay is destroyed so is the surounding system.

[3DandBeyond]

Any point made to fill a plot hole that begins with maybe indicates just how broken and convoluted the ending is.

Maybe it was a different kind of explosion.
Maybe it was an allegory for the futility of life and the intervention of a supreme being.
Maybe this, maybe that.

Great and maybe it doesn't mean anything at all, but that the devs plain ran out of time so it was a compilation of stuff copied from other games. In the Final Hours, there are things that point to this.

In an attempt to actually not re-write all of the reasons the ending is awful, I will direct people again to a great essay written by an actual literary professor.  It explains plot holes and all that stuff.

http://social.biowar...ndex/11435886/1

There are many others floating around the internet that do fully explain why it fails.  But the bottom line for me is that Shepard (the one I've been playing) would not accept any of the 3 choices because they lack logic and Shepard knew a better way.

I furthermore think that it doesn't matter what side of the issue you are on in this, it's unnecessary to be insulting.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 mai 2012 - 04:11 .

[sdinc009]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Any point made to fill a plot hole that begins with maybe indicates just how broken and convoluted the ending is.

Maybe it was a different kind of explosion.
Maybe it was an allegory for the futility of life and the intervention of a supreme being.
Maybe this, maybe that.

Great and maybe it doesn't mean anything at all, but that the devs plain ran out of time so it was a compilation of stuff copied from other games. In the Final Hours, there are things that point to this.

Correct, this is why the ending is broken. The Resolution stage of a story needs to tie up loose ends. The ending of ME3 leaves way too many plot holes unanswered leaving the audience with too much to speculate and theorise. That is no resolution and does not create closure. It's ok if every plothole can't be filled and a few loose ends go unresolved. It's almost impossible to do that, but a few plot holes is ok. But, when there are too many the ending is not an ending because there is way too many parts of the the story left to still resolve. Also, because ME3 is the ending to the series as a whole there is even less tolerance for loose ends. In circumstances like this the fewer the loose ends the better the whole series closes, and the adverse is equally true. Too many loose ends and the ending breaks and retroactively takes down the story as a whole.

[3DandBeyond]

sdinc009 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Any point made to fill a plot hole that begins with maybe indicates just how broken and convoluted the ending is.

Maybe it was a different kind of explosion.
Maybe it was an allegory for the futility of life and the intervention of a supreme being.
Maybe this, maybe that.

Great and maybe it doesn't mean anything at all, but that the devs plain ran out of time so it was a compilation of stuff copied from other games. In the Final Hours, there are things that point to this.

Correct, this is why the ending is broken. The Resolution stage of a story needs to tie up loose ends. The ending of ME3 leaves way too many plot holes unanswered leaving the audience with too much to speculate and theorise. That is no resolution and does not create closure. It's ok if every plothole can't be filled and a few loose ends go unresolved. It's almost impossible to do that, but a few plot holes is ok. But, when there are too many the ending is not an ending because there is way too many parts of the the story left to still resolve. Also, because ME3 is the ending to the series as a whole there is even less tolerance for loose ends. In circumstances like this the fewer the loose ends the better the whole series closes, and the adverse is equally true. Too many loose ends and the ending breaks and retroactively takes down the story as a whole.

Exactly.  It's a given that some things can't be addressed and some things can't be worked into an ending.  But, this game had an ending already.  It was there, staring them in the face and they chose to introduce this star kid and complicated what could have been a satisfying close.

If it had adopted a simpler view of things and if it had created a more character driven end it would have just worked and played better.  Harbinger as the ultimate in evil amongst the reapers-could explain the simple idea that reapers feel threatened when organics advance far enough, so they cull their numbers.  And then an adequate denouement and epilogue.

And then create endings that do take into account what we've done.  I and others have posted the things we'd really like to see in an ending that also adds in Shepard's fate.  S/he probably dies, probably lives, possibly dies, possibly lives, based on fighitng/choices.  And it's not dependent on what happens to the reapers.  You could then add in what happens to everything else. 

The ending that is just needlessly complicates what is a gut level fight for the survival of organics this time.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 mai 2012 - 04:23 .

[Archonsg]

@3DandBeyond

I love that post / article. Just wish people would actually read it and not go "Huh, wall of text...nah..."

These days though, seems almost pointless to try to get people to understand that we aren't "whining" but are trying to help make the Mass Effect franchise better.

Its kinda funny as I am at the moment listening to the just released audio book "The Lost Fleet : Invincible" which also has "gate" technology and has dealt with the issue of exploding gates dealing supernova / nova scale energy release.

I find it kinda funny that the author's foreword had this to say "One of my rules in writing science fiction is to keep it real, that is, even though this is fiction, I stick by the rules, even if the rules are ones I made up on how things work." (This would be even more hilarious if it the foreword is done after or during the ME3 ending became "public" )

Mass Effect as a whole did this beautifully, right till that end, till those last ten or so minutes.. And that is what most people who do like the end do not seem to want to see, understand or see our side of the story.

Science fiction has to make sense, otherwise, it'll just be fantasy fiction.

Modifié par Archonsg, 04 mai 2012 - 04:38 .

[Shynnagh]

Never posted on these forums before. I have only one thing to say. AI's
destroying ALL organic life is a tall order. For the Catalyst's logic to
be sound, it would have to possess some modicum of empirical data. But
that is impossible for it to possess, for that would make it's entire
existence irrelevant. For it would have had to have happened before, and
that is not possible logically, in the Milky Way, because there stands
Shepard before it, walking and talking and blowing stuff up.

Or
perhaps its not impossible. Maybe its data was gathered from another
galaxy? Perhaps the catalyst is greater than our small spiral? Were the
Reapers and the Catalyst designed by extragalactic beings at the dawn of
the universe? And if so, how did THEY foresee the need for such beings without the crucial empirical evidence that is forever unobtainable?

I just want some answers, that is all. I am a
huge fan... as much fun as speculating is, I just want some good old
fashioned storytelling from Bioware. Come on guys.... I know you can do
it. I am counting on you. Finish telling the story.

[Remix-General Aetius]

Balmung31 wrote...

When I see Bioware give appreciation to Shepard by having an optional ending where he lives and can be reunited with his crew and LI, maybe I'll tell you. 

THIS a million times over. I'll be perfectly happy with everything else, as long as Shep has a chance to be reunited with his/her true love. otherwise what's the point of having a romance system? if it's irrelevant, it shoulda been renamed to the Horsing Around system or the Whoring system.

Modifié par TheGarden2010, 04 mai 2012 - 08:36 .

[Voodoo-j]

For the most part the last couple pages get nowhere, all it's accomplished is that babachewie at first shows complete disregard for any ones view that is not his.  Followed by his own admittance of his/her short sightedness.

babachewie wrote...

 You are correct. My counter to this persons arugment isnt proven. Its just what I think based on wha ti know about the series. It is a fan fiction in its own right but thats the only way I can counter other peoples

Again, why disrespect someone elses view when yours is based on your own imagination.  There is alot of thought, and a high level of logic behind alot of views.

I can't belive someone got him/her to admit it   

Maybe now he/she can discuss it without being so callous towards other peoples views, now that he/she has admitted they are doing the same thing.

[Voodoo-j]

Start listening at 2:22
The original writer that is not present for ME 3
He specifically states, why everyone is expecting what they did not get with the ME 3 ending.

 

[Voodoo-j]

"very conscious of player choices" "multiple endings"

This is what we were expecting.

They advertised and marketed a product, and failed to deliver on stated expectations.

Modifié par Voodoo-j, 04 mai 2012 - 09:37 .

[dr888]

Dear Bioware; Yesterday I saw video of your PAX event (I know-old news).I do not follow Your tweets so this was my first contact with people working on my -till recently -favourite game. I was impressed on how much passion and dedication writers seem to put to their work on this games (esp. Mr. Weekes and Mr Dombrow, responsible for my favourite characters). I put my opnions on ME3 on different topics within ME3 forum, took part in polls. But I must comment on the obvious contrast between their attitudes and this abomination we see as ending hit me like a hammer . I got really angry again (first was after first finishing ME3) . What happened to ME3 ending then if so many people worked on this and are abviously deeply attached to their work? What does that mean: "we did not consider having closure is so important " (not a direct quote of Mr Gamble (?). In a story driven game ? Spanning 3 titles /5years of our life ? How producer can say that , about ANY game? I was supresed that there were was no reaction form audience to this. Well, I would react. If this is EA's new take on ending games then I am sorry but this is my last EA game. If my boss caught me saying something like that to customer about closing a business transaction I would be in serious trouble. What if there was no fan backlash? Would Your next game also be delivered without finished story ? I did notice how Mr Gamble said "artistic integrity". My impression is that he knew what fans were alredy thinking about it. It is not a personal attack, I am just trying to understand reasoning behind Your work on ending. So far I have no clue except what many depressing things fans already wrote. Obviously You have an impressive, dedicated team - USE IT. I do not expect Your direct answer, I prefer actions : as in delivering full ending and fixing multiplayer bugs. Although I understand Your reasoning on Tali's face now , I still believe it was a total failure though, it even contradicts Your own artwork on Tali (as seen in CE artbook) Example You gave of Samara face model shows only that it COULD HAVE BEEN DONE, like with all ather characters. ANY face model would be be better....
Stay true to Your work to the end (pun intended). Live long and prosper.

[3DandBeyond]

Archonsg wrote...

@3DandBeyond

I love that post / article. Just wish people would actually read it and not go "Huh, wall of text...nah..."

These days though, seems almost pointless to try to get people to understand that we aren't "whining" but are trying to help make the Mass Effect franchise better.

Its kinda funny as I am at the moment listening to the just released audio book "The Lost Fleet : Invincible" which also has "gate" technology and has dealt with the issue of exploding gates dealing supernova / nova scale energy release.

I find it kinda funny that the author's foreword had this to say "One of my rules in writing science fiction is to keep it real, that is, even though this is fiction, I stick by the rules, even if the rules are ones I made up on how things work." (This would be even more hilarious if it the foreword is done after or during the ME3 ending became "public" )

Mass Effect as a whole did this beautifully, right till that end, till those last ten or so minutes.. And that is what most people who do like the end do not seem to want to see, understand or see our side of the story.

Science fiction has to make sense, otherwise, it'll just be fantasy fiction.

That's a big part of the problem.  There's so much that's structurally, thematically, and contextually wrong with the ending, that it's hard to put it simply.  However, your quote from the author of "The Lost Fleet" is on point. 

Walls of text do turn people away, but then these same people want to stun people with the super secret deep nature of the ending, that even one stated could take till summer to explain.  What would that wall of text look like?

Benchpress610 raised some very interesting questions that pointed out simply some real glaring problems if the ending is to be accepted. 

His one question was for synthesis.  If you chose it, what would the synth/organic eat?  All "food" would be synth/organic too.

And the other involved the star kid saying it always only had one option which was to destroy advanced organics, but because Shepard got to the top, there were now three.  So, perhaps as Shepard was crawling back to the pedestal and the platform that rises up, the star kid started building the infrastructure for the three choices.

I repeat these questions because I know what will happen.  Someone that loves the ending will say or think, "maybe".
Almost every problem with the ending is explained away by telling people that it may be because of this or that.  It's either that or the ending is so super intelligent that only those with the most highly developed brain will "get" it.  Or we just want big, fancy fight scenes, or we just want a super happy sweet ending.  And so on.

But you are right to the point.  We accepted some space magic, but to give Science Fiction completely over to it, you get Space Fantasy.  ME was the former until the ending.  The fact that we can consistently come up with plot holes, inconsistencies, illogical "logic", a whole lot of space magic, and so on that must be explained away with "maybe" means the ending was Fantasy. 

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 mai 2012 - 12:34 .

[chomicze]

@3Dand Beyond

That's right. We were playing three games to understand the logic and mechanic of the world, galaxy created, and then, in the end all is taken away and replaced by space magic. I don't see any other explanation, and this ending isn't really deep - it's simple as hell. And lot of holes.

You write about synthesis, and food. We have multiple options "wtf is happening after" to choose from. Food is becoming organically synthetic ( ), or maybe we don't need food at all, and we will be 'charged' like synthetic beings? Who knows? For sure we don't. I don't know if ending's creators figured it out either.

[Archonsg]

 @3DandBeyond & Chomicze

I have said this before about Synthesis. Reapers now have stomachs so guess what'll they'll eat.
And ... Reaper poop.
But hey, it's "Artistic Integrity" Space Magic!

Anyone who thought synthesis is a solution really need to sit down and think it through.

Modifié par Archonsg, 04 mai 2012 - 12:58 .

[darkway1]

Archonsg wrote...

 @3DandBeyond & Chomicze

I have said this before about Synthesis. Reapers now have stomachs so guess what'll they'll eat.
And ... Reaper poop.
But hey, it's "Artistic Integrity" Space Magic!

Anyone who thought synthesis is a solution really need to sit down and think it through.

Bioware got the end wrong,pure and simple......we know about the dark energy story line,we know about the human based reaper (mass2) and we now know all of that story plot was dropped in the last 10 mins of the game........the multi endings promised.....again dropped.......even introducing a villian at the end of a story (starchild) and space magic....is just plain wrong.

In responce......Bioware/EA takes the stand that they are right,they have done nothing wrong,everything is perfect.......in fact the problems seems to boil down to people like you and me being too stupid to understand the ending,IT'S INSULTING.

Modifié par darkway1, 04 mai 2012 - 01:33 .