23455 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

Voodoo-j wrote...

Start listening at 2:22
The original writer that is not present for ME 3
He specifically states, why everyone is expecting what they did not get with the ME 3 ending.

 

Great video.

My favorite quote is at 3:20

"We've been very conscious of the ability of players to make choices and we understand that if those choices don't have consequences that carry on through the trilogy there's no point in making them."

That just about sums up what was done in making the ending.

[Holger1405]

LiarasShield wrote...

So no love nothing fanfiction about that dear that is real consequences played out and that we ultimately failed fake optimism or any sense of victory was lost here unless the dlc will make our sacrifice count and if the relays are rebuilt

I answered to you on something like that about 100 pages ago, still you are claiming that the worst things are happening after the endings we have right now.  So please tell my, why should Earth not to be able to support live anymore? Why should they very same races who defeated the reapers suddenly fight each other?  
You don't like the Endings, I get it, but why did you, and other People who don't like them either, jump to the worst possible conclusions without any evidence whosoever, in the current ending, to back up this conclusions.        

[3DandBeyond]

Holger1405 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

So no love nothing fanfiction about that dear that is real consequences played out and that we ultimately failed fake optimism or any sense of victory was lost here unless the dlc will make our sacrifice count and if the relays are rebuilt

I answered to you on something like that about 100 pages ago, still you are claiming that the worst things are happening after the endings we have right now.  So please tell my, why should Earth not to be able to support live anymore? Why should they very same races who defeated the reapers suddenly fight each other?  
You don't like the Endings, I get it, but why did you, and other People who don't like them either, jump to the worst possible conclusions without any evidence whosoever, in the current ending, to back up this conclusions.        

I know you didn't address this to me, but I have some possible answers.

The fleets that moved in on Earth to attack the reapers were not set up for long term life in space, except for maybe the Quarians.  Food supplies are limited and some races cannot even eat the same food as humans.  Considering that many of these races have been at odds with each other for a very long time you might think that all would be wonderful since they united and defeated a great foe. 

Well, there's a great corollary in real life that happened in this country, the US.  Actually, it recurs consistently.  There are great moments that unite us, but when adversity sets in we tend to suddenly be at each other's throats.  I could envision the same thing happening on these ships.  Starving and hopeless, considering they might try to get somewhere with FTL, but fuel is limited as well.  They can look out the window and see other ships that have supplies they might use.  It is one of the main problems with the ending.  The fleets are basically stranded and will have to fight over finite resources or roll over and die.  The evidence is there.  It's an obvious consequence of stranding them. 

As to what happens on Earth, well, much of it is burning and in ruins.  Based on some of your war asset choices, it could even be vaporized and gone totally.  But even if it's lush and teeming with life, I think what LiaraShield was pointing out is that it could not support all the life that is now orbiting it.  Back to the stranded fleets.  They can't all eat what Earth has to offer.  And since there are most likely more people orbiting Earth than the food supply of the Earth can support, so that's a problem.

The things that most of us point out as reasons for not liking the endings are things that are contained within the endings and the story so far.  Evidence we are given.  Those that like the ending almost always insert speculation into the ending.   Mass Relays destroyed-fleets are stranded if not totally vaporized as well.  Billions of people now circle Earth with finite resources available to sustain them.  It is what it is.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 mai 2012 - 01:48 .

[Holger1405]

sdinc009 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Any point made to fill a plot hole that begins with maybe indicates just how broken and convoluted the ending is.

Maybe it was a different kind of explosion.
Maybe it was an allegory for the futility of life and the intervention of a supreme being.
Maybe this, maybe that.

Great and maybe it doesn't mean anything at all, but that the devs plain ran out of time so it was a compilation of stuff copied from other games. In the Final Hours, there are things that point to this.

Correct, this is why the ending is broken. The Resolution stage of a story needs to tie up loose ends. The ending of ME3 leaves way too many plot holes unanswered leaving the audience with too much to speculate and theorise. That is no resolution and does not create closure. It's ok if every plothole can't be filled and a few loose ends go unresolved. It's almost impossible to do that, but a few plot holes is ok. But, when there are too many the ending is not an ending because there is way too many parts of the the story left to still resolve. Also, because ME3 is the ending to the series as a whole there is even less tolerance for loose ends. In circumstances like this the fewer the loose ends the better the whole series closes, and the adverse is equally true. Too many loose ends and the ending breaks and retroactively takes down the story as a whole.

Sorry but this is imho simply not true. ME3 provides conclusion to almost any major Mass Effect storyline. The Quarian vs Get conflict, the Genophage, Cerberus, etcetera. The only real plot hole (and my only real problem with the ending) is the Normandy and the Crew ending up on some distant planet. Something Bioware can explain with the DLC. 
The speculation about the faith off the Universe after the endings, are not related to the Mass Effect storyline so far. And when you keep in mind that Bioware already announced that it would be a good idea to keep your ME3 saves, also not really a problem.

[LiarasShield]

Holger1405 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

So no love nothing fanfiction about that dear that is real consequences played out and that we ultimately failed fake optimism or any sense of victory was lost here unless the dlc will make our sacrifice count and if the relays are rebuilt

I answered to you on something like that about 100 pages ago, still you are claiming that the worst things are happening after the endings we have right now.  So please tell my, why should Earth not to be able to support live anymore? Why should they very same races who defeated the reapers suddenly fight each other?  
You don't like the Endings, I get it, but why did you, and other People who don't like them either, jump to the worst possible conclusions without any evidence whosoever, in the current ending, to back up this conclusions.        

 
because that is a logical conclusion to thee events given to us and  their is nothing at the moment to go against it

[sdinc009]

Voodoo-j wrote...

For the most part the last couple pages get nowhere, all it's accomplished is that babachewie at first shows complete disregard for any ones view that is not his.  Followed by his own admittance of his/her short sightedness.

babachewie wrote...

 You are correct. My counter to this persons arugment isnt proven. Its just what I think based on wha ti know about the series. It is a fan fiction in its own right but thats the only way I can counter other peoples

Again, why disrespect someone elses view when yours is based on your own imagination.  There is alot of thought, and a high level of logic behind alot of views.

I can't belive someone got him/her to admit it   

Maybe now he/she can discuss it without being so callous towards other peoples views, now that he/she has admitted they are doing the same thing.

I did. I simply pointed out that the arguements between LiaraShields and him about what occurs to the galaxy after the ending is entirely specualtive. Both sides of the arguement have merit and are technically correct because there is no definitive proof to address either side as canon. I have been discussing with babachewie through several posts and though we are currently on opposing sides of this debate it doesn't prevent us from doing so in a respectful manner. He does make some compeling arguements to his case, as do I, but we do so with a mutual respect for each others views.

Voodoo-J, I understand that this issue can make things emotionally charged, but please try to refrain from casting insults. By claiming that someone else is being callous or disrepectful because they have a different perspective is not the way to go about this. Let's remember that the point of this forum is to address the concerns or validate the approval of the ending. We don't need to bicker and fight amongst ourselves to do this. We need only discuss the valid and logical points we all have to why we believe the ending shoudl or should not be changed.

[3DandBeyond]

Holger1405 wrote...

Sorry but this is imho simply not true. ME3 provides conclusion to almost any major Mass Effect storyline. The Quarian vs Get conflict, the Genophage, Cerberus, etcetera. The only real plot hole (and my only real problem with the ending) is the Normandy and the Crew ending up on some distant planet. Something Bioware can explain with the DLC. 
The speculation about the faith off the Universe after the endings, are not related to the Mass Effect storyline so far. And when you keep in mind that Bioware already announced that it would be a good idea to keep your ME3 saves, also not really a problem.

Yes, they provide conclusion to those plot lines within the story before the ending.  I was talking about the ending that totally throws out the meaning of those conclusions.  The ending disregards those choices.  And it's because if you chose to reunite the Geth and Quarians, cure the genophage, seek Batarian help, and so on, you are not given any option to tell the Star Kid to stuff his choices, choices that do not recognize these things.  He gives you no option that takes into account the idea that it is not a certainty that the created will rebel against and destroy the creator.  Period.  He tells you that in order to stop synthetics from destroying you, you will be destroyed.  What the hell has he been drinking?  Major stupidity. 

The fate of the galaxy is of prime concern, always was or Shepard could have just flown off to greener pastures.  We aren't talking about the whole universe here, just the universe s/he lives in.  The universe/story within ME.  The ending in no way keeps faith with how you've played the game, what is said within the game, nor does it follow good story structure.  It falls off a cliff and drags you with it.  Shepard is neutered and rendered mute. 

Substitution of the star kid as antagonist instead of the reapers is really poor story telling.  Even if you figure there must have been someone pulling reaper strings all along.  Though even within ME1 and ME2, you are pointed to the reapers as the ultimate bad guys and Harbinger is their voice.

You are entitled to your opinion and great kudos to you for doing so in a very decent way.  We can agree to disagree. 

[LiarasShield]

And for those of you who think jokers dessertion was acceptable or abandoning the fleets in the final battle and saying **** you or using the relays before they explode or going ftl before the relays are annhilated I suggest you don't join the military because if you desserted or fled the battle while your allies and soldiers are fighting a battle

You would be shot and or excuted for your betrayal and if not killed you would get dishonorable discharge making it nearly impossiable to get a decent job besides being your local janitor so no joker escaping and leaving the fleets to rot or to die is not acceptable

espically when joker couldn't abandon the normandy in the begining of mass effect 2 and shepard had to come back to yank his ass out of the pilot seat and get him onto a space pod to get him to safety

Let alone joker sticking around for shepard and crew during the destruction and chaos of the collector base and you know simply put the joker abandoining the fleets with your loyal squadmates should've only happened if you didn't do the loyalty missions and you told everyone to pretty much **** off that is the only reason that should've happened for those of us that did do the loyalty missions they should've stayed and fought and either be destroyed or stranded just like everybody else

[LiarasShield]

I'm not gonna put a fake optimist spin on this when all we are presented with at the moment is total failure yes I'm happy that they resolved certain plots and what not but if everyone is stranded or dies inspace all the hard work of solving the issues with the geth and quarians or the krogan with the turians and salarians will not mean ANYTHING

[3DandBeyond]

@LiaraShield,
This is a big problem. Not only Joker running away, but right before Shepard goes up to the Citadel. Soldiers are told to retreat. Retreat to where? And if everyone was wiped out, who is retreating? The push to the Citadel was an all or nothing gamble. As was the push to Earth. Hackett said it-if they couldn't figure out what the Catalyst was, the fleets would push on and hope for the best.

I'll say it again, Joker running and the "retreat" thing is like someone drowning in the ocean that decides to swim to another spot, because drowning is better over there.

[LiarasShield]

Unless you can give true proven facts that disprove the total failure of the ending that the majority of us saw on screen let alone no resolution to the characters we have spend five years with then please just stop defending a crappy ending that makes no sense and gives the player the sense of dread or the sense of not wining is not acceptable

I mean more to put it how many games do you have that you play with all your heart and no matter what you do you fail just how many games final fantasy x-2 you win resistance 2 and or 3 you win call of duty no matter what the number you win star wars force unleashed 1 and 2 you win
and on and on and on

I could go on with this for hours but to simply put it I don't think we play games to fail nor are their that many games where the player can do everything and give it their best and ultimately lose

[LiarasShield]

killzone 3 kingdom hearts and should I make the list continue to prove my point?

[3DandBeyond]

sdinc009 wrote...

Voodoo-J, I understand that this issue can make things emotionally charged, but please try to refrain from casting insults. By claiming that someone else is being callous or disrepectful because they have a different perspective is not the way to go about this. Let's remember that the point of this forum is to address the concerns or validate the approval of the ending. We don't need to bicker and fight amongst ourselves to do this. We need only discuss the valid and logical points we all have to why we believe the ending shoudl or should not be changed.

Actually, Voodoo-J I believe was responding to certain condescending and insulting posts that babachewie made to me and other people, and telling babachewie that he or she was being callous and disrespectful is not insulting.  It's describing the behavior exemplified.  I was being talked down to-told all I wanted was a pew pew ending and that I was whining and much more.  I appreciate Voodoo-J being so kind as to stick up for me.  Please look back and see what was said to me.  You have had a decent conversation with babachewie, but s/he has been very insulting to others.  That began the bickering.  Sure, we do need to stop it.  But, please also direct your concerns to the instigator.

Below are specific quotes I will point out...

babachewie wrote...

Well now your words are taking a turn, you don't see or give understanding to one of the more sensical people posting.  So now it's you can post your view in a very well worded intelectual manner, but you now feel the need to revert " oh you just want pew pew".  Obviously you have not read the posts of the past few days, you have no understanding, you are closed minded. 

Therefore I will no longer take to an understanding of what you have to say, your words are now mute.

You can't expect others to respect your view if you refuse to entertain theirs.

babachewie wrote...
This persons whole I dont care about anything, I just want what I want attitude sounds like whining. I wont entertain whining.

As well, there was the whole attitude at dismissing attempts by people to point out the endings could have been done better-calling this fan fiction-a thing that led you to get him/her to admit that in explaining the endings as they are you must also use fan fiction.  But the whole initial thing was a way to insult others, it's puff and immature because it's fan fiction.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 mai 2012 - 02:31 .

[Voodoo-j]

sdinc009 wrote...

Voodoo-j wrote...

For the most part the last couple pages get nowhere, all it's accomplished is that babachewie at first shows complete disregard for any ones view that is not his.  Followed by his own admittance of his/her short sightedness.

babachewie wrote...

 You are correct. My counter to this persons arugment isnt proven. Its just what I think based on wha ti know about the series. It is a fan fiction in its own right but thats the only way I can counter other peoples

Again, why disrespect someone elses view when yours is based on your own imagination.  There is alot of thought, and a high level of logic behind alot of views.

I can't belive someone got him/her to admit it   

Maybe now he/she can discuss it without being so callous towards other peoples views, now that he/she has admitted they are doing the same thing.

I did. I simply pointed out that the arguements between LiaraShields and him about what occurs to the galaxy after the ending is entirely specualtive. Both sides of the arguement have merit and are technically correct because there is no definitive proof to address either side as canon. I have been discussing with babachewie through several posts and though we are currently on opposing sides of this debate it doesn't prevent us from doing so in a respectful manner. He does make some compeling arguements to his case, as do I, but we do so with a mutual respect for each others views.

Voodoo-J, I understand that this issue can make things emotionally charged, but please try to refrain from casting insults. By claiming that someone else is being callous or disrepectful because they have a different perspective is not the way to go about this. Let's remember that the point of this forum is to address the concerns or validate the approval of the ending. We don't need to bicker and fight amongst ourselves to do this. We need only discuss the valid and logical points we all have to why we believe the ending shoudl or should not be changed.

To sound completely immature.. he did it first.
I'm tired of people
coming in the forum and posting their view, which I can more than
respect, and then saying someone elses view is stupid, without
explaining why.

So go back to that post, and quote them and tell them to refrain.

thanks

(this was in no way in reference to your discussing with bab, but with his responses to posts within that time frame)

FYI - my first post in response to him actually gave him kudos for not doing what he ended up doing an hour later.

Modifié par Voodoo-j, 04 mai 2012 - 02:18 .

[3DandBeyond]

@Voodoo-J,
I think it's pretty obvious here. You have nothing to be sorry for. I do think that everyone (myself included) does need to keep things about the game and story and not about the person posting stuff. But, I don't see that you did anything wrong. There's a lot of hostility sometimes for no reason. I personally don't care if someone's opinion is opposite from mine. But, let's have a discussion. When you post something, I respect you and read it and only then will I comment on it.

But there is an attitude that some people have where they just see you disagree with their stance and so they feel a need to post about it without reading anything you have said. Or they feel the need to tell people off. Not real helpful. And meant to start a flame war.

So, I do understand and agree with sdinc009 here.  I don't care where you fall on this discussion.  I will try to keep it decent, if you will too.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 mai 2012 - 02:31 .

[Thanatos144]

It like a comedy show....There are 4 of you diehards left slapping each other on the back for saying the same thing and blasting anyone with a differing opinions....At least I am not the only one who gets the treatment. Cant wait for the Extended cut then it will only be about Shepard living or dieing that you all will complain about..

[Voodoo-j]

I don't have problems with any ones view of the game, if I don't agree with it I don't call it stupid, and tell them they don't know what they are talking about.
I just ask they do the same, if not, that's where I have an issue.

Try it on for size it makes you a mature individual and everyone will respect you for it, and take your comments seriously.

Modifié par Voodoo-j, 04 mai 2012 - 02:43 .

[sdinc009]

Holger1405 wrote...

sdinc009 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Any point made to fill a plot hole that begins with maybe indicates just how broken and convoluted the ending is.

Maybe it was a different kind of explosion.
Maybe it was an allegory for the futility of life and the intervention of a supreme being.
Maybe this, maybe that.

Great and maybe it doesn't mean anything at all, but that the devs plain ran out of time so it was a compilation of stuff copied from other games. In the Final Hours, there are things that point to this.

Correct, this is why the ending is broken. The Resolution stage of a story needs to tie up loose ends. The ending of ME3 leaves way too many plot holes unanswered leaving the audience with too much to speculate and theorise. That is no resolution and does not create closure. It's ok if every plothole can't be filled and a few loose ends go unresolved. It's almost impossible to do that, but a few plot holes is ok. But, when there are too many the ending is not an ending because there is way too many parts of the the story left to still resolve. Also, because ME3 is the ending to the series as a whole there is even less tolerance for loose ends. In circumstances like this the fewer the loose ends the better the whole series closes, and the adverse is equally true. Too many loose ends and the ending breaks and retroactively takes down the story as a whole.

Sorry but this is imho simply not true. ME3 provides conclusion to almost any major Mass Effect storyline. The Quarian vs Get conflict, the Genophage, Cerberus, etcetera. The only real plot hole (and my only real problem with the ending) is the Normandy and the Crew ending up on some distant planet. Something Bioware can explain with the DLC. 
The speculation about the faith off the Universe after the endings, are not related to the Mass Effect storyline so far. And when you keep in mind that Bioware already announced that it would be a good idea to keep your ME3 saves, also not really a problem.

Yes the plot lines you mentioned have been resolved and were done so during the story. I have no objection to 99% of the story, it is the ending that we are objecting to. My statements in the previous post are true, but if you would like to claim otherwise please cite reasons why and offer the appropriate counterpoints not just blatant conjectures. Now for some plot holes: Why is Joker fleeing the final battle? How did my squadmates that were with me on Earth get transported onto the Normandy? So the Mass Relays are destroyed, does that mean evey system that has a mass relay is also destoryed? Is the Victory Fleet stranded in orbit of a decimated Earth? What happens to the primary characters of the story, there?

I've intentionally avoided mentioning the other plot holes that are created in each ending, but the ones I've mentioned should serve to make my point. Speculation about the fate of the universe is just that, speculation. However, creating closure is the responsibilty of the Resolution stage in a story and leaving so much unanswered is a failure of this stage. This is part of the storyline because the ending is an integral part of the story and has the profound power to make or break the story as a whole.

[darkway1]

Thanatos144 wrote...

It like a comedy show....There are 4 of you diehards left slapping each other on the back for saying the same thing and blasting anyone with a differing opinions....At least I am not the only one who gets the treatment. Cant wait for the Extended cut then it will only be about Shepard living or dieing that you all will complain about..

yay......Thanatos........it will be interesting to see what the extended version has to offer.......interesting to compare what they find exceptable now and what new information the DLC has to offer.......even your views may well be turned upside down now that Bioware has the time to flesh out the ending we presently have.

Modifié par darkway1, 04 mai 2012 - 03:00 .

[Thanatos144]

darkway1 wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

It like a comedy show....There are 4 of you diehards left slapping each other on the back for saying the same thing and blasting anyone with a differing opinions....At least I am not the only one who gets the treatment. Cant wait for the Extended cut then it will only be about Shepard living or dieing that you all will complain about..

yay......Thanatos........it will be interesting to see what the extended version has to offer.......interesting to compare what they find exceptable now and what new information the DLC has to offer.......even your views may well be turned upside down now that Bioware has the time to flesh out the ending we presently have.

That is true. I might be wrong on some things buit only those that are conjecture . Many of my views are already explained in the game.

[Benchpress610]

C’mon guys and gals, don’t acknowledge the troll, that’s all he wants.

[Holger1405]

3DandBeyond wrote...



I know you didn't address this to me, but I have some possible answers.

Not a problem, a good discussions often require several People.

3DandBeyond wrote...

The fleets that moved in on Earth to attack the reapers were not set up for long term life in space, except for maybe the Quarians. Food supplies are limited and some races cannot even eat the same food as humans. Considering that many of these races have been at odds with each other for a very long time you might think that all would be wonderful since they united and defeated a great foe.

Well, there's a great corollary in real life that happened in this country, the US. Actually, it recurs consistently. There are great moments that unite us, but when adversity sets in we tend to suddenly be at each other's throats. I could envision the same thing happening on these ships. Starving and hopeless, considering they might try to get somewhere with FTL, but fuel is limited as well. They can look out the window and see other ships that have supplies they might use. It is one of the main problems with the ending. The fleets are basically stranded and will have to fight over finite resources or roll over and die. The evidence is there. It's an obvious consequence of stranding them.

As to what happens on Earth, well, much of it is burning and in ruins. Based on some of your war asset choices, it could even be vaporized and gone totally. But even if it's lush and teeming with life, I think what LiaraShield was pointing out is that it could not support all the life that is now orbiting it. Back to the stranded fleets. They can't all eat what Earth has to offer. And since there are most likely more people orbiting Earth than the food supply of the Earth can support, so that's a problem.

Not in all endings the relay's are destroyed, but even when they are, you said it yourself, the Quarians can supplying themselves, easily, because a lot of them must be staying back on Rannoch. They also can supplying the Turian, and the rest is getting help from earth.
Why should earth not to be able to sustain the population In any of the "good" endings? The Reapers mainly attack areas of high population density, food supply comes usually from different areas, plus as hard as it sounds, there are a lot less People on Earth then before the invasion.

And when you are not getting enough EMS Points to reach such a good ending?
Well than YOU fail, because even with the EMS Problem, (My biggest issue with ME3) you are able to get a ending without Earth to be devastated.

I don't say the relations between the different races are all wonderful now, but there is nothing, regardless of which ending you chose, that implied a sudden outbreak of hostility between them.

And let's consider the ending are different, satisfying for you and others, even then the question if the Peace between the races are holding could not be answered, as so many other question only brought up by People who didn't like the endings. (Unless Bioware is going to make ME4)

[Thanatos144]

Benchpress610 wrote...

C’mon guys and gals, don’t acknowledge the troll, that’s all he wants.

Everytime peopole try to prove me wrong people like you post. Thank you.

[Benchpress610]

 
I went back and checked the oldest poll on the ending to see how much of a minority we are and these are the results:
 
Endings suck, we want a brighter one. 91%(66719 votes)
 
Endings are fine, we just want the Normandy strand on Earth or somewhere near Shepard 6%(4246 votes)
 
Fine as it is. 2%(1579 votes)
 
That makes an 11 to 1 ratio. I guess we are a very small vocal minority uh?
 
If you haven’t, go vote. Link: http://social.biowar...6&poll_id=28989

[Barnes96]

I loved the whole game.. apart from the ending(s), i thought the whole 'kid that died earlier on is the VI' thing a bit trippy as well... Loved Legion saying 'I' in stead of 'we' especially though... kinda rounded him off brilliantly!